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General: Debate: The End-Game
Dana
Member Posts: 2,415
Frank and Garrett return to the ring to debate end-game content in MMORPGs. Our two argumentative staff writers go at it as a prelude to the real event: your thoughts. So read on and then join the fray on our boards.
| Garrett Fuller: End-Game content has always been a touchy subject for gamers and developers alike. Many RPG video games have been based on leveling or questing to the end and defeating the big boss. MMOs are different; you level or build skills to reach a point where you can not advance any further unless the developers add new content. Right now raid content, player built areas, and PvP all run the end-game of the most popular MMOs on the market.
I do like PvP as an end-game resource. It can be ever changing and fun to always compete against other players. The key is for developers to come up with new fun scenarios for people to take part in. Raid content is one huge pain in the ass. I do take part in raids on WoW, but mainly because there is little else to do. Doing a raid one or two times is not so bad, but having to repeat the process every single week for months is just plain boring. What happened to the open world of MMOs? Where players could run around out there and find great things to fight or encounter without having to carry on a huge raid. |
You can see what Garrett and Frank thought here.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Comments
Bad Link.
It just brings me back to the main page.
Edit- On that note, the 9 Dragons: Exclusive Trailer link takes me to EverQuest2. o.O
Both links are fixed. Good eye.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Once upon a time....
Great debate, and a touchy issue that is at once the most meaningful topic and perhaps the least addressed of all.
I must admit I loved the EQ endgame. Lots of challenges on an epic scale and the AA system to keep you busy and interested when you weren't raiding. Those who didn't raid had LDoN to gear up with. DAoC has it nearly nailed with the RvR end game system.
I just want a bit of innovation to take place. Is that so much to ask? Blizzard says yes.
We pillage stormwind, the last alliance held city - putting ever human, elf and dwarf to the sword. The sky is aglow with fireworks to herald our victory...A final glourious fmv sequance and credits.
Blizzard refund one months of subscription fee's to the winning side before all characters on the servers are wiped and we get to start again...
If the end game is something that you only do when you reach the end, and if it is far more fun and rewarding than anything previous to it, what that does is trivialize the rest of the game. That's why you see people powerleveling, buying gold, whatever it takes to chew through "preliminary content" as quickly as possible and get to what people like that think is the "real game." (I am opposed to those things, btw).
I think that the end game should be more of the same content that the players have been enjoying up until that point. More fun soloing content. More fun group content. More fun raid content. More fun PvP content. More levels. More items. More areas/zones. Keep it coming. I'll gladly pay extra for it.
Giving the players a handful of big creature to beat on in mass groups, or some silly arena or similar PvP instance, is just plain lazy and uninspired.
Add to the game I'm playing in the fashion I am accustomed to playing it or I will go play another one. To me, the end game is just that. My time playing that game is ended.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Here's a debate that has me torn because both points are so valid. There is something anti-climactic about a game that is originally all about the ascent, the growing stronger, the achieving of ultimate greatness only to end in a repetitive end-game that only measures success by beating down others. For those that enjoy PvP, this is probably not as bothersome as it would be for those who do not. For us, Frank's end of the debate rings true. We have achieved the ultimate... No amount of raiding for the perfect set of gear or endless beating down of others is going to satisfy us. For me, the removal of the leveling mechanic is the end of the game, not because I'm enamored with the "grind," but because that is part and parcel of why I undertake quests in the first place. I challenge myself, discover wondrous things, and grow stronger, which ultimately must culminate in some sort of end story. At this time, if the story was engrossing enough, I might just start again, with a different class, and live the story once more. I personally like the idea of once you achieve endgame status, you unlock some sort of bonus that can pass on to a new character if you choose to begin again. This, to me, is a worthwhile reward that benefits you from the beginning and that you can enjoy all the way to the end, rather than making the end game simply a collection of PvP kill points or the perfect set of gear. Of course, I don't mind letting the PvPers have their competitive endgame, but for those who don't enjoy PvP, give us some rewarding endgame content and some sort of New Game+ reward.
I agree with Frank that end-game content is a bit of an oxymoron, but his example of an epic battle in Lord of the Rings has a serious flaw. Lets say you can do this epic battle alone, with a group, or a large raid. Unfortunately, if it's fun enough to repeat and as you do so, this epic battle becomes repetitive and overly thought-out as would any arena battle.
The fact is, in WoW, a 40 vs. 40 alterac valley battleground IS an epic battle. As i never really stuck around long enough to do the big RvR battles in DAOC, these battles are the largest pvp excursions i've ever done. The advantage is that you're fighting real people, which means there's not reason to believe it'll be the same battle every time as one might expect from a traditional rpg.
But to say that these battles, or WoW as a whole, fullfil all my wants in an mmo or an rpg is far from true.
I agree, if the focus is on the 'end game' instead of the journey, its like reading a book summary and jumping to the last chapter, only to be disappointed when its over so soon. One of the great things about Asheron's Call is that it took a whole year before players started reaching the maximum level. In WoW, there was a level 60 in the first month after release!
I never rush to get to the max level. 'Grinding' not only takes the fun out of the journey, you also miss out on some of the most interesting parts.
When did the concept of epic stories and being the main hero in your
version of the game get replaced by endless raids with people...
[/quote]
Indeed, what happened to the concept of the gamer being the hero? Why do companies think that only a select few should reach that? We all play to be heros... not to be some serf or squire that stands around holding the masters sword.
When some game comes along where each person can be the hero just like those epic adventure solo games then we'll see a big hit. WoW just teased everyone with that then slapped you straight at 60.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
My problem with End Games is that I've never actually reached one. All the years I have been playing mmo's I have never got to that point. I enjoy the journey so much that I never do reach it. For example, a friend and I started playing WOW at the same time. He has 6 characters at lvl 60. My highest is lvl 33. How's that for a journey.
The best endgame I would say comes from not having and end game or one 2-3+ years away after chacter creation.
I must point back to when Asherons call started, the level cap was lvl 128 now they had no content for the high end players as it would take years to get there. With the monthly story updates that kept every lvl of player involved in the greater story and even being able to see a God come to life and help in killing him through story and quests and eventually combat with him not solo of course.
This game before it died for me (with the mage changes) was the best mmo ever made, great story, and involved every lvl or toon. when you can always progress your toon i guess you could say there isn't an ingame or one so far to outlive what the majority will play too. Maybe its a game style but I have never been one that needed to Hit the max lvl to have fun, Even in wow I have 12 toon or so playing low lvl content as i dont want to hit the raid content, I dont want to hit the end game.
I'm like Warmage, it's the journey I enjoy. I quit WoW at level 56 because I saw where the game was heading and I wasn't interested.
I do have a suggestion for this dilemna. Why not create a grand and glorious end game for those who choose that, and let the game continue for those who like raids and PvP? For the first kind of end game, if the company didn't want to lose their customers. they could add on another expansion as WoW plans to do with the Bloodmages.
Personally I don't like the current end game. Most are based on getting uber gear to overcome a foe and just ooutlasting them. yes you can do it with lesser gear, but even with the most skilled it is all about your tank not getting 1 shotted at a bad time. I think levels are kinda passe^a at this point after all endgame is all about being at level cap. Unfortunately I don't have a better idea for an advancement system (well not one I would share on a public forum -.^) but if a game is going to be about raiding at the end game why shoudln't it be from the begining? or if it is going to be about small groups before the end game why not at the end game?
Changing a game after 60, 70, 75, 100 levels seems silly to me. And things should be more skill dependant rather than killing XXX raid to get a drop to kill XXX raid boss (like tranq shot etc).
This is quite innacurate, you're saying that blizzard is the first company to ever think about doing an expansion?!?? uhmmm wrong? maybe the 3 first mmorpg didn't had expansion but every others that came after and stayed longer then 3 months had expansions, look at Everquest, no games to date has as much expasions to it then this, even The Sims doesn't...
Expansions doesn't bring anything into the game to say and you'll discover that with WoW. Expansions are just there to keep those power hungry playing there game by adding new more powerful items, new raid contents and more debilitating stuff like this, they only bring you lame quest and suches...
To make an ultimate mmorpg they'd need to make players become kings, archmage, knights and suches, to let them gain notoriety and make them feel they are someone in the world they are playing. bu t then again, how would you do that when you have 5 millions players wantign to be that character... They have to provide around 1 millions quest and have them as good as each other ones all suited in a perfect quest system that would prevent too much players to have the same. But that's impossible to create that much content.
pvp is only good if it has a meaning, in DAoC it fails somewhere down the road (imo) has there is not much to do besides conquering the same relic, same dungeons and whats not they've added since I last played. If there would be some story that would make things more interesting.
I think they were referring to new classes or jobs. Much Like Blizz seems to be doing and were added in EQ1, AO, FFXI, and DAoC as well as others practically all MMOs actually.
Edit: my usual typos
If a game is designed to end. finish it and get the hell out of there. Someone gets that a persistent worl means there should be NO end-game, simply a multitude of things you can do and see, and the game really doesn't end.
In a case where someone doesn't add enough content to provide this type of mmo, but instead gives me a gerbil wheel to run in called 'End-game content'...to them i say 'no thanks, i prefer to actually run outside becasue the sceneery changes'
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
www.spankybus.com
-3d Artist & Compositor
-Writer
-Professional Amature
I agree with both Frank and Garrett.
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
Why is this so? Why can't we have an MMO that has no limit to character progression?
I would like to see an "End Game" that is merely another form of character advancement other than new and more powerful loot. New places to explore new skills to learn and new stories to tell. If a game no longer has anything new to experience then why continue to play it?
1) If you want to keep people playing there should be no such thing as end game content. I define you arriving to end game as : "You have participated in every event that game has to offer." If one wants to avoid that they have to put people in charge of the world and let players descide in which direction world steers. That is the basis for all sandbox MMORPGs and that is the biggest advantage of the sandbox MMORPGs. Looking at the other end of the spectrum are the static games that are designed for people who like to participate in simular game events over and over. To give an example of such games would be EVE Online vs World of Warcraft. A bit ago I read a post by one of the Devs on WoW boards in which they have discussed this very same issue, being "How come WoW is so static?", the major argument was that if they would have given reigns of power to the players every server would have its own story and its own people. Thus when they would be making (and if) WC4 they would arrive to storyline predicament.
2) As long as some people will play 16 hours and others will play 2 hours a day we will always have a problem with people maxing our their character unless you limit that how. EVE is living example of that some people like that, others dont, claiming that there is no way for a new player to catch up to the vets. Ultimately if people play 16 hours a day they will arrive to end game earlier then everyone else, and it doesnt matter how hard you will make it to level. There will still be a gap between people reaching high level content. Making a grind more difficult only effects casual player, and I cant stress that point enough. Power gamers will still get there it is the casual gamers that will not. Until someone will figure out how to tackle that issue we will keep on running into the same problem.
Lineage II provides adequate content for the "end game" as such the main things for me include the ability to have multiple subclasses when one reaches the appropriate hight level to change to one; therefore giving the gamers the capacity to play through the game again on a different angle of approach.
There is an areana for the highest level characters but the winning of these battles provides that character with very powerfull abilties that can alter the server if only slightly and untill their title is challenged again.
Castle seiges are regular large battles that take place involving a myriad of players from different levels the outcomes of which have affects on the server.
It takes players around one year (or slightly more) i am lead to believe, to reach the highest levels .
There are continually added expansions to the game including more content for lower levels and high level "end game" content.
please correct me if i am wrong about any of my points as i say i have no "end game" character
I would also like to know why near every debate over similar issues and this issue is about WoW when there are plenty of other games on the market providing better content (in my opinion) such as Lineage II, EVE, DAoC ect.
sorry for any typos
Wouldn't be great if playing games actually brought you qualifications of some sort; I can justify playing EVE as taking a course in business skills for example.
"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference."
-- The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost
The content of the end-game should to be the first goal.
The leveling phase should to be a appetizer only. After this... Conquests, Assaults, Events and a good good PvP content.
Events? yes, events:
World of Warcraft example - Air elementals invade Ironforge without previous notice. Many elementals, greats elementals. goes to Ironforge for defend it. Some elementals can drop valious items or not...
2 hours more later: Assault pushed back, victory, FUN and some lucky player with a new and powerful item as souvenir of a great battle.
Too difficult? Why?. I don't understand.