Black Anime Characters

oliverc4 · April 2006

Why is there rarely any good black anime characters? The only good one
i've seen is from Barret from Final Fantasy. Dragonball had some black characters but they awere always stereotyped like Mr. Popo W...T...F. Big lips, A slave or servant
of Kami, and had to be the darkest thing to ever walk the planet.
Anyway, if you can think of any black anime characters, post some pics
of them here.

Rattrap · April 2006

Anime is eastern media. You dont get to many black people living there. So you dont get it in their art as well. And anyway stuff you listed , like dragonball is mainly kid anime.

Try some stuff for grown ups like Ghost in the shell or Cowboy beebop

Bloodgaze · April 2006

well for one, its japanese, so mojority of the characters would be japanese or that sort i would surmise. and as for mr popo, lol that fat dude rocked. a gardener in the sky with a magic carpet, man all he needed was a few gold plated rims on that thing :P

Tertius · April 2006

Originally posted by Bloodgaze
well for one, its japanese, so mojority of the characters would be japanese or that sort i would surmise. and as for mr popo, lol that fat dude rocked. a gardener in the sky with a magic carpet, man all he needed was a few gold plated rims on that thing :P

Ya know, this brings up something that I have always been puzzled by with anime.

You'd think under the circumstances that anime characters would almost exclusively appear, well, Eastern Asian. Some do of course, but it seems to me that the majority of them look like Western Europeans or white Americans. Blonde hair and round blue eyes are most assuredly not common Asian features. Why is that? I know that there has been in the past a fascination there with Western culture but does it extend this far? Popular films in the Far East don't seem to exhibit this trend, why do animated fils/comics and games?

Does anyone have any insight into this?

Xenduli · April 2006

Because it's easier to see a characters facial expressions, which anime tends to exaggarate. Hard to see it when the character is black. I suppose every American looks like Marilyn Monroe or James Dean do they? No it is a fantasy.

Bloodgaze · April 2006

you dont even seen very many anime with asian eyes or facial expressions. anime is all about the exageration of the eyes and mouth to show the most emotion. so thats why they use the big eyes and other faces rather then asian or whatnot, it is just the majority of the way anime is done.

Mcgreag · April 2006

When a Japanese looks at anime he sees the chars as Japanese, same as when an American watchs American cartoons he sees them as American. If there is ever a non Japanese character in an anime his looks will be much exaggerated and you will see right away that he is non Japanese. Same with American cartoons, most characters are just blend with no showing racial features, only the characters where it is important to see where he comes from has racial features and often very exaggerated.

For example, can you honestly say that you think Bart Simpson look "American"?
It's a about expectations, you expect Bart to be American so you see him as such. Had he instead been named Tanaka and had his voice made by an Asian voice actor he could just as well been Japanese.

Unknown · April 2006

Originally posted by oliverc4

Why is there rarely any good black anime characters? The only good one
i've seen is from Barret from Final Fantasy. Dragonball had some black characters but they awere always stereotyped like Mr. Popo W...T...F. Big lips, A slave or servant
of Kami, and had to be the darkest thing to ever walk the planet.
Anyway, if you can think of any black anime characters, post some pics
of them here.

Hmm.... since I'm a young college guy who's intrested in studying, learning, etc.... I'll allow my self to bite, and let you in on some info:

1. First, you need to run as fast as possible to your nearest Blockbuster Video store (or whatever other major video store in your area) and rent the ANAMATRIX DVD. Watch both DVD's. You'll get a kick out of the first anime with the obviously black hero. Then watch the 2nd DVD about the HISTORY OF ANIME!!! It goes into the hardest hardcore history of where anime came from, WHO is the father of anime, and much, much more.

2. Ever wonder why current Asian anime show "round eye" characters, and not "slant eyed" characters? Do Asians have that much self hatred for theirselves?

3. How many dark skinned black Japanese do you know? Have you seen? There are virtually none. Some do exist. But it's rare. So obviously the majority of their culture, their belief system, idea of beauty, will lean towards lighter skinned heros.

4. Before the 1900's, in European history, dark skinned Europeans were looked down on because it ment they were part of the working class. They worked outdoors, in the sun, etc. The rich Europeans did not have to work, or not as much, thus their skin was more pale. Skin color was a quick way of telling what class someone was.

This was the same in Asia. An Asian with dark skinned was 99% likely to be a leather worker aka worked outdoors. Aka was of the working class. Not the ruling class. Again, skin color was a quick way of telling what class someone was.

5. Now, since the Europeans took over the planet during the past 300 years.... (there are many reasons why, with 3 major reasons which I won't get into now.... too off subject.) The Europeans brought their culture, and belief systems, and ideas of beauty with them wherever they went. This is why in Asia you see Asians getting surgery to get rid of their "slanty eyes", in an attempt to look more European. This is why Black-Americans to this day will put stuff in their hair to make it look "straighter". (Mostly Black-American women.)

5b. The FATHER of anime was directly influenced by Disney in the early 1900's (WATCH the 2nd DVD in the ANIMATRIX collection), he drew the first anime with round eyes, and pale skin, more pale than than even the skin of the majority of Asians.

6. So it all in the present long run comes down to European influence. Even in present Asian culture, including Anime. Were the Europeans wrong? NO! Let the Europeans believe pointy noses, blond hair, straight hair, blue eyes, and ultra-pale skin as their idea of what ultimate beauty is!

6b. The REAL problem... ISSUE... is this:

- Asians need to research why they now hate slanty eyes. Why they strive to have surgery to look more European. Why they don't like "yellow skin", "brown skin", and "black skin". Why they get high off of ultra pale skin aka European influence. Then REBEL on it and learn to love their slanty eyes, their yellow skin, brown skin, and dark skin.

- Black Americans, (or Nubian-Americans if you want to be historically accurate since it was a European who had Africa named after him, because he claimed no humans lived there , and he was the first one there.) need to research why they hate dark skin, hate spending money with Nubian owned buisnesses, hate looking up their real family last names, love calling each other derogatory names... AND keep whining to other groups to do things for them LIKE for example asking Asian animators to make positive dark skinned characters!

- Black Americans aka Nubian Americans need to do like the FATHER of Asian Anime did!!! He got tired of seeing European/White-American/Euro-American cartoons with no positive Asian characters... Sooooo he MADE HIS OWN!! Just like Rob Zombie got tired of corporate clone rock music, complained, then MADE HIS OWN music!!! Just like Lord British got tired of seeing junk computer games, complained, then MADE HIS OWN computer games!!!

- Soo if you, the original poster are tired of NOT seeing positive dark skinned characters in Anime, start complaining - which you have did. AND also start MAKING YOUR OWN!! Yes, buy a drawing pad, pencils, ink, pens, and start drawing!! Get a notepad and start writing your own plots, backgrounds, and stories! Just like the Nubian Americans who made their own major comic company did! (They later sold the distribution rights to DC Comics. I think they still draw their comics though. They even had a special comic in which Superman appeared with their version of their idea of a dark skinned superman.)(If I remember right, their comic company was called " Mile High Comics ".) They actually did good work. Euro-Americans as well as Nubian Americans purchased their comics.

Heck, you can even contact the creators of that Nubian-American comic company and set up a meeting, and discuss with them your ideas for a dark skinned Anime character/characters!

Xenduli · April 2006

Originally posted by xplororor

4. Before the 1900's, in European history, dark skinned Europeans were looked down on because it ment they were part of the working class. They worked outdoors, in the sun, etc. The rich Europeans did not have to work, or not as much, thus their skin was more pale. Skin color was a quick way of telling what class someone was. This was the same in Asia. An Asian with dark skinned was 99% likely to be a leather worker aka worked outdoors. Aka was of the working class. Not the ruling class. Again, skin color was a quick way of telling what class someone was.

Nice to see college education working. ::::08::

Unknown · April 2006

Originally posted by Xenduli

Originally posted by xplororor

4. Before the 1900's, in European history, dark skinned Europeans were looked down on because it ment they were part of the working class. They worked outdoors, in the sun, etc. The rich Europeans did not have to work, or not as much, thus their skin was more pale. Skin color was a quick way of telling what class someone was.

This was the same in Asia. An Asian with dark skinned was 99% likely to be a leather worker aka worked outdoors. Aka was of the working class. Not the ruling class. Again, skin color was a quick way of telling what class someone was.

Nice to see college education working. ::::08::

Thanks!
Something else intresting....

After the Industrial Revolution, the opposite views started taking root. As more and more of the working class started working in cities, and indoors (in factories, and office buildings in the "developed" countires) more and more the cultural idea, and views, of beauty started changing. Now strangely, in western society, especially among Europeans, and Euro-Americans, the ultimate idea of beauty is DARK skin with blond, straight hair, pointy nose (aka an "aristocratic nose"), blue eyes, and being tall.

Ever hear of the saying among Euro-American women "Tall, DARK, and handsome"? That's a small example of this shift in cultural view of beauty.

In present time, the view of "those who set the views", aka the view from Europeans, and Euro-Americans, is that pale skin, and ultra-pale skin symbolizes someone is of the working class. They have extreemly little, to no free time - trapped in their office job, factory job, or whatever job. Dark skin/Tan skin, symbolizes someone who has free time to vacation, lie in the sun for hours and hours, someone who is not trapped in their job. Someone who is RICH. Aka of the upper class. This changed view is more deep set with Europeans, and Euro-Americans. It's as if Nubians, Nubian Americans, Asians, Indians, and other non-Europeans have yet to "catch up" to this new view, beauty belief system, that Europeans and Euro-Americans now judge each other by.

ladyattis · April 2006

I think it's pointless. Larger eyes means larger soul in japanese culture. Small eyes means either intent to hide the truth in your soul or that your soul is weaker/immoral/sinful in some fashion. So rounded eyes being the largest as they are, tend to reflect this cultural/religious norm of Japan. Also, if you ever watched Patlabor, you'll see that the main character, the captain of the Patrol Labors, has SLANTED EYES in all the movies. Same with the other characters, save for the youthful kids. In fact, I dare say, the most mature anime looks more realistic with the almonding of their eyes if you dare to do legitimate research and not cast faulty accusations on an entire culture.

-- Bridget

Unknown · April 2006

Originally posted by ladyattis

I think it's pointless. Larger eyes means larger soul in japanese culture. Small eyes means either intent to hide the truth in your soul or that your soul is weaker/immoral/sinful in some fashion. So rounded eyes being the largest as they are, tend to reflect this cultural/religious norm of Japan. Also, if you ever watched Patlabor, you'll see that the main character, the captain of the Patrol Labors, has SLANTED EYES in all the movies. Same with the other characters, save for the youthful kids. In fact, I dare say, the most mature anime looks more realistic with the almonding of their eyes if you dare to do legitimate research and not cast faulty accusations on an entire culture.

-- Bridget

*sigh*

For some strange reason you skipped the part of my post where I listed the RESEARCH.
Please go rent the ANAMATRIX DVD.
I'm not "casting faulty accusations on an entire culture". I'm going by the RESEARCH of the Japanese theirselves! Turn on the English subtitles to translate what the Japanese animators are saying when they talk about the issue of why Asians lean more towards viewing European looking eyes as better looking than traditional slanty Asian eyes.

BTW, your point is touched on in the interviews. But the interviews go far further than what you know. Before WW2 era Asia, slanty eyes was viewed as the epitome of beauty. While "round-eyes" was the eyes of the Gwee-loh (it's what the Japanese called the Europeans. It means Devil-man, foreign devil, evil, ugly devli, filthy devli, smelly devil, etc... etc..) In the interviews they show examples from Asian artwork in which ALL the characters have obviously slanty eyes, including the heros. From thousands of years back, all the way up to the late 1800's , and early 1900's right before WW2.

It was the FATHER of Asian anime, who was directly influenced by Disney, who allowed himself to subconciously, take on the idea to no longer continue the look the traditional Asian art (in which the hero, and characters have obvioiusly slanty eyes), but instead be directly influenced by European, and Euro-American characters, and lean towards showing rounder-eyed, larger eyed, characters.

They idea of the eyes being windows to the soul has been in Asian culture looong before Anime came on the scene. Characters, and heros, were still drawn with slanty eyes though. And obvious examples of before anime Asian art is shown in the interviews with Asian animators.

ladyattis · April 2006

Originally posted by xplororor
For some strange reason you skipped the part of my post where I listed the RESEARCH.
Please go rent the ANAMATRIX DVD.

I've watched it twice, sir, I don't need to be schooled in the plots or styles of the shorts in the Anamatrix. Also, the Anamatrix is not the definitive library of anime and manga created in the 60 years of its inception. So, again, you're pulling a fallacy called supressed evidence. Stop ignoring the existence of other anime and manga series where the characters are in fact racially identifiable.

I'm not "casting faulty accusations on an entire culture". I'm going by the RESEARCH of the Japanese theirselves! Turn on the English subtitles to translate what the Japanese animators are saying when they talk about the issue of why Asians lean more towards viewing European looking eyes as better looking than traditional slanty Asian eyes.

Again, you're ignoring the cultural norms to which larger eyes infer something about the character. For example, eyes are deemed windows to the soul in japanese culture. Another example, larger eyes infer youthfulness in japanese culture. And so on. Your inferences are completely faulty to hell to say the least. And like most outlanders to the culture of Japan, you ASSUME too much.

BTW, your point is touched on in the interviews. But the interviews go far further than what you know. Before WW2 era Asia, slanty eyes was viewed as the epitome of beauty. While "round-eyes" was the eyes of the Gwee-loh (it's what the Japanese called the Europeans. It means Devil-man, foreign devil, evil, ugly devli, filthy devli, smelly devil, etc... etc..) In the interviews they show examples from Asian artwork in which ALL the characters have obviously slanty eyes, including the heros. From thousands of years back, all the way up to the late 1800's , and early 1900's right before WW2.

You mean the Fu Manchu effect. It's been long buried and also, it never took root in japan's culture either. It was a predominently American racial stereotype.

It was the FATHER of Asian anime, who was directly influenced by Disney, who allowed himself to subconciously, take on the idea to no longer continue the look the traditional Asian art (in which the hero, and characters have obvioiusly slanty eyes), but instead be directly influenced by European, and Euro-American characters, and lean towards showing rounder-eyed, larger eyed, characters.

And? That doesn't prove some self-hatred of 'slanted eyes.' If you knew why he chose round eyes then you realize it wasn't about race, it was about culture. That's why for example, in Princess Monoke, one character says a drink tastes like piss in dub, but the literal translation is tastes like water; to a japanese person anything that merely tastes like water means it's tasteless or bad tasting. To a European/Anglophone, it means it just tastes like water. So, again, cultural norms are different. Are you going to infer that the japanese hate water now?

They idea of the eyes being windows to the soul has been in Asian culture looong before Anime came on the scene. Characters, and heros, were still drawn with slanty eyes though. And obvious examples of before anime Asian art is shown in the interviews with Asian animators.

Again, no duh, and the majority of anime isn't round eyed style. In fact, it's almond eyed. Stop assuming and start doing real anime and manga title research. Start with Patlabor anime and manga, then work your way out.

-- Bridget

ladyattis · April 2006

While different titles and different artists have their own unique artistic styles, many stylistic elements have become extremely common. Some examples have become so common that they are often described as being definitive of anime in general, and have been given names of their own. The most common is the large eyes style drawn on many anime characters, common mainly due to the influence of Osamu Tezuka, who was inspired by the exaggerated features of Western cartoon characters such as Betty Boop and Mickey Mouse and from Disney's Bambi. Tezuka found that large eyes allowed his characters to better express their emotions. Some Western audiences have interpreted such stylized eyes as more Caucasian. Cultural anthropologist Matt Thorn argues that Japanese animators and audiences do not perceive them as inherently more or less foreign. [1] When Tezuka began drawing Ribbon no Kishi, the first manga specifically targeted at young girls, Tezuka further exaggerated the size of the characters' eyes. Indeed, through Ribbon no Kishi, Tezuka set a stylistic template that later sh?jo artists tended to follow. Another variation of this style is "chibi" or "super deformed"; which usually feature huge eyes, an enlarged head, and small body.

That's from Wikipedia, you can argue all day, but the cultural norms point has yet to be refuted. Thanks for trying.

-- Bridget

Unknown · April 2006

Originally posted by ladyattis

Originally posted by xplororor
For some strange reason you skipped the part of my post where I listed the RESEARCH.
Please go rent the ANAMATRIX DVD.

I've watched it twice, sir, I don't need to be schooled in the plots or styles of the shorts in the Anamatrix. Also, the Anamatrix is not the definitive library of anime and manga created in the 60 years of its inception. So, again, you're pulling a fallacy called supressed evidence. Stop ignoring the existence of other anime and manga series where the characters are in fact racially identifiable.

Now watch it a 3rd time. Watch the SECOND DVD in which there are interviews with Asian animators, and they cover ALL 60+ years of anime, manga, hentai, from inception, and BEFORE inception. Some of them do not speak English, so you will have to turn on the subtitles. They cover back to the father of Anime. You claim you watched the interview DVD, soo... what is the name of the guy who is the father of Asian anime?

I'm not "casting faulty accusations on an entire culture". I'm going by the RESEARCH of the Japanese theirselves! Turn on the English subtitles to translate what the Japanese animators are saying when they talk about the issue of why Asians lean more towards viewing European looking eyes as better looking than traditional slanty Asian eyes.

Again, you're ignoring the cultural norms to which larger eyes infer something about the character. For example, eyes are deemed windows to the soul in japanese culture. Another example, larger eyes infer youthfulness in japanese culture. And so on. Your inferences are completely faulty to hell to say the least. And like most outlanders to the culture of Japan, you ASSUME too much.

And yet again, you IGNORE the fact that these views were held before anime existed. These views were held back when Asian art depicted heros, and characters with slanty eyes. I am not going by my views. I am going by the views of the Japanese theirselves, as they state in the interviews. I leave it to the other posters, and lurkers here, to watch the 2nd interveiw DVD in the ANAMATRIX DVD pack, and see for theirselves. And not go by what I say, nor by what you claim. They can see it from the source - the Asians theirselves as they get interviewed.

If you want to ignore the fact that many Asians get surgery to get rid of their slanty eyes, then that is you. But the cold, hard, truth and fact, is that many Asians who can afford it, get the surgery done. Because they wish to look more "European", more "Euro-American". The exact same reason Nubian-Americans (mostly the women) put chemicals in their hair to make it straight. Both groups conciously, and sub-conciously, seek to cater to European ideals of beauty.

It was the FATHER of Asian anime, who was directly influenced by Disney, who allowed himself to subconciously, take on the idea to no longer continue the look the traditional Asian art (in which the hero, and characters have obvioiusly slanty eyes), but instead be directly influenced by European, and Euro-American characters, and lean towards showing rounder-eyed, larger eyed, characters.

And? That doesn't prove some self-hatred of 'slanted eyes.' If you knew why he chose round eyes then you realize it wasn't about race, it was about culture. That's why for example, in Princess Monoke, one character says a drink tastes like piss in dub, but the literal translation is tastes like water; to a japanese person anything that merely tastes like water means it's tasteless or bad tasting. To a European/Anglophone, it means it just tastes like water. So, again, cultural norms are different. Are you going to infer that the japanese hate water now?

Then let me ask you this...

In your opinion, how come all Asian artists BEFORE anime took root, all drew Asian heros, and characters, with slanty eyes, even while Asian culuture back then still held the same views about eyes being windows to the soul, etc....?

Unknown · April 2006

Originally posted by ladyattis

While different titles and different artists have their own unique artistic styles, many stylistic elements have become extremely common. Some examples have become so common that they are often described as being definitive of anime in general, and have been given names of their own. The most common is the large eyes style drawn on many anime characters, common mainly due to the influence of Osamu Tezuka, who was inspired by the exaggerated features of Western cartoon characters such as Betty Boop and Mickey Mouse and from Disney's Bambi. Tezuka found that large eyes allowed his characters to better express their emotions. Some Western audiences have interpreted such stylized eyes as more Caucasian. Cultural anthropologist Matt Thorn argues that Japanese animators and audiences do not perceive them as inherently more or less foreign. [1] When Tezuka began drawing Ribbon no Kishi, the first manga specifically targeted at young girls, Tezuka further exaggerated the size of the characters' eyes. Indeed, through Ribbon no Kishi, Tezuka set a stylistic template that later sh?jo artists tended to follow. Another variation of this style is "chibi" or "super deformed"; which usually feature huge eyes, an enlarged head, and small body.

That's from Wikipedia, you can argue all day, but the cultural norms point has yet to be refuted. Thanks for trying.

-- Bridget

Yes, your right, Wikipedia is definatly the definative source for information. It definatly overrides what the Japanese theirselves say about their ownselves. Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia kept by internet surfers. It is simply a layman's tool to point to better tools.

Please rent the ANAMATRIX DVD, and watch the 2nd DVD with the subtitles on, and go by what the Japanese theirselves say. They show examples of Asian art in which the heros and characters all have slanty eyes, even though during that time period the culture held the same views about the eyes being windows, as is held today.

SpankyBear12 · April 2006

Originally posted by Bloodgaze
well for one, its japanese, so mojority of the characters would be japanese or that sort i would surmise. and as for mr popo, lol that fat dude rocked. a gardener in the sky with a magic carpet, man all he needed was a few gold plated rims on that thing :P

LMAO

Jimmy_Scythe · April 2006

xplororor wrote:

Yes, your right, Wikipedia is definatly the definative source for information. It definatly overrides what the Japanese theirselves say about their ownselves. Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia kept by internet surfers. It is simply a layman's tool to point to better tools.
Please rent the ANAMATRIX DVD, and watch the 2nd DVD with the subtitles on, and go by what the Japanese theirselves say. They show examples of Asian art in which the heros and characters all have slanty eyes, even though during that time period the culture held the same views about the eyes being windows, as is held today.

Okay, let me see if I get this straight, you're supposedly college educated but you use "theirselves" (not a word) rather than "themselves" and only use one source for all of your conclusions. What college are you going to? Las Vegas Drive-Through University?

I also find it interesting that you use the term "gwee-loh" (the actual word is Quai-loh) which is Chinese in origin and means "Barbarian Devils". This term is used to refer to ANYONE who isn't Chinese, not just Europeans. The Japanese version of this word is "Gaijin" and is also meant to mean all people that are not Japanese. However, while qui-loh makes no distinction between outsiders, gaijin is meant exclusively for people outside of Asia. "Naikokojin" is actaully used for people that were from other parts of the Japanese empire, outside of the main islands. Japanese would be considered "quai-loh" by the Chinese, while Chinese people might be considered "Naikokojin" (or more likely "ihojin") by the Japanese.

The surgery that you refer to is actually only popular in third world sections of Asia such as Thailand and Cambodia. Most of those procedures are forced on women that are prostitutes in the assumption that they will be made more desireable to the clientele.This practice reached it's peak during the Vietnam war and has dropped off quite a bit over the past 40 years since. In the modern sections of Asia, such as Korea and Japan, this kind of surgery is all but unheard of!

You need to find about five more sources and analyze some counterpoints to your main thesis. Your conclusion seems to be based more on your own Eurocentric attitude of superiority than fact.

ladyattis · April 2006

Now watch it a 3rd time. Watch the SECOND DVD in which there are interviews with Asian animators, and they cover ALL 60+ years of anime, manga, hentai, from inception, and BEFORE inception. Some of them do not speak English, so you will have to turn on the subtitles. They cover back to the father of Anime. You claim you watched the interview DVD, soo... what is the name of the guy who is the father of Asian anime?

Don't need to, many anthropologists have done the research for me. Wichita State does have a nationally recognized department of anthropology, which has done all the research. All in all, again, you presuppose a cultural norm's non-existence without proof. I know the medieval japanese art styles. In fact, I know that most evolved within their time, which really shows that the japanese culture is rather 'new' in the long view of history. But, that's not the point is it...Okay, here's my point. You assume they hate themselves because they draw cartoons with rounded eyes. That doesn't follow under any circumstance. Why is it that they, the japanese, disparage foreigners as Ganjin[sp?]? And why do they find most American men and women to be ugly [too tall or too skinny]? Perhaps you need to go and do a real research piece before you conclude self-hate. Also, it's not even scientific to assume to know the mental states of a whole group of people without any decent sample studies!!! Come on, you're talking to a kid that's Ace'in here in Intro to Logic! And I study modal logic for fun! Stop the fallacious tactics and talk like a real student of reason with me, okay? Give me some decent sources besides the Animatrix! One source does not always make a case. Just as one sample does not make an inductive inference. The animators themselves are a skewed since it's self-selection in the sample of animators.

And yet again, you IGNORE the fact that these views were held before anime existed. These views were held back when Asian art depicted heros, and characters with slanty eyes. I am not going by my views. I am going by the views of the Japanese theirselves, as they state in the interviews. I leave it to the other posters, and lurkers here, to watch the 2nd interveiw DVD in the ANAMATRIX DVD pack, and see for theirselves. And not go by what I say, nor by what you claim. They can see it from the source - the Asians theirselves as they get interviewed.

Again, watch Patlabor. Captain Goto looks like a middle-aged japanese man!!! Do real research! No more self-selecting bias, got it?

If you want to ignore the fact that many Asians get surgery to get rid of their slanty eyes, then that is you. But the cold, hard, truth and fact, is that many Asians who can afford it, get the surgery done. Because they wish to look more "European", more "Euro-American". The exact same reason Nubian-Americans (mostly the women) put chemicals in their hair to make it straight. Both groups conciously, and sub-conciously, seek to cater to European ideals of beauty.

Bullcrap, it's not the majority of cases. I want your statistical data, NOW, since you're making an inductive inference. You make a claim, now back it up. If your sample only indicates a minority of japanese that get such a surgery, then your case falls FLAT.

Then let me ask you this...
In your opinion, how come all Asian artists BEFORE anime took root, all drew Asian heros, and characters, with slanty eyes, even while Asian culuture back then still held the same views about eyes being windows to the soul, etc....?

Many did, look at their depictions of spirits. Good and evil spirits in all paintings have large eyes.

Also, you ever thought that there's a simpler explanation, which I forgot to make clear...? I'll explain. Television shows and movies have one thing in common with regard to the subjects that are depicted with regard to humans....ALL THE ACTORS/CHARACTERS HAVE LARGE EYES. Why? Because of two things. First, larger eyes are preferred, it's not the shape, but the size that makes a person seem attractive, this is evidenced in anthropological studies on the nature of beauty. Second, larger eyes also are far more expressive than smaller eyes, which is why the majority of actors in the world, even in non-english speaking nations, have larger more expressive eyes. Eyes invoke emotions and channel subtext into film and tv shows, so much more easily than smaller less expressive eyes. Look at any movie poster in the last twenty years. From Hollywood to Baliwood, you find the same large eyed form for people. Hell, even Samuel L Jackson has larger eyes than normal which are very expressive; of anger and etc!

Your case is prefaced on presupposition without conclusive proof. Mine, on the other hand, is referencing to several factors which you have yet to falsify....

QED

-- Bridget

evirus · April 2006

dude... popo isnt even freaking human, plus if you want a darkskinned character in DB look at Uub. and plus you gotta look around away form the crap shows you see in america nowadays, macross has a few black characters here and there, a bridge officer, an admiral of a military base, to name a few

Therumancer · April 2006

Okay, while going through back messages to find more about the WoW gold-for-level 60 quests thing I stumbled accross this. To be honest I think this message is an attempt to cause trouble since anything involving "Race" is by and large a loaded topic, but since I'm bored I'll take the risk of answering it straight up. Needless to say some people will tell me "I need to get out more" at the very least because some of what I'm about to say is frank and not very "nice" or PC.

For starters I'm an Anime fan, I was something of a fan BEFORE it was cool. It's a part of a general sci-fi and fantasy fandom that encompasses everything from RPGs (online and paper and pencil), to computer games, to comics. Yeah I'm 30 and still read some comics in TPB form.

At any rate, all comments about the art style in Anime and the land of origin is just a way of skipping around the issue. To be totally frank in a lot of Anime you can tell which ethnicity characters are supposed to be through a lot of methods. One of which is the fact that they tell you. There are also a few tell-tale signs that are used once in a while such as hair style (believe it or not) and a certain way the voice is done (in a subbed version) that can also act as clues. Watch something fairly old like 801 TTS Airbats (where the American Military pilots like Yeager are somewhat stereotyped for the region), or go back as far as "Gall Force: Eternal Story" where at the very end the plot aside you'll notice one of the characters is wearing a red white and blue earring.

At any rate, I've read some serious analysis of this stuff over the years. Plus I'll mention the fact that Anime is pop culture and you'll notice there is a lot of Angst (and very anti-American angst) that creeps into this stuff. Japan basically felt they were god's gift to the world, had a theory about racial purity which made the Nazis look like a Girl Scout Troupe and got their butts totally destroyed by a mongrel society. Anime is full of all kinds of very pro-Japanese messages of various kinds. Check out the "classic" Blue Seed and some of the rants about the fall of Japanese culture. If you pay attention the genere is chock full of this stuff, and even in sci-fi there are tons of analogies to what amounts to wet dreams about the powerlessness of Western civilization, a return to a 'proper' pecking order, and all kinds of variations. There are some that include a message of cooperation and unity somewhere but this is *usually* but not always interpeted as being under Japan's terms. Keep in mind that I'm not even remotely reading into this. While good science fiction on it's own merits, some Anime like "Gasaraki" uses such things as central plot elements.

Okay, now let's bring this back to why there are no Black characters. Simply put Blacks are considered to be inferior or at the best a total non-factor. Once in a while you'll see one as a backround character (highly exagerrated) or a dark-skinned exotic beauty, but for the most part Japan just doesn't care about blacks. They don't have any major empowered 'minority groups' of the type we would recognize in the US. Indeed as most of our soldiers occupying the country (Okinawa for example is still covered with US military bases, the SSDF is pathetic compared to the US military stationed there, it *IS* an occupation whether anyone realizes it or not) can tell you if you visit Japan you can look around on the street and you might see a few caucasians (usually near the military bases) but everyone is Japanese. To find a black person or whatever would take a major search as you just don't see them casually. I am in New London Connecticut IRL so I've talked to *MANY* naval personell about Japan because of my hobbies.

As a result Anime focuses on what they consider to be important, which is basically the Japanese people, and begrudingly the Caucasians (mostly Americans) who actually beat them in defiance of the universe's natural order. They do have a degree of respect for Americans (who they see as being primarly white) and to a lesser extent the european parent cultures. On the other hand Blacks are by and large only a factor as a minority in the US (where many can argue they are a 'problem subculture', especially from an outside perspective). Most of the countries occupied by blacks despite having a wealth of mineral resources are third world civil-war torn hellholes. Even in Europe you don't see blacks being a factor, as in the US they "matter" because of our civil rights system and a great amount of conscious effort to make them matter.

When you see a black character like "Deejay" from SF II consider that by the time he was created the game had been marketed internationally and the much-huger US Market realized the need to add in a decent Black character to try and hit that audience. Thus while there are black characters I feel many of them are the result of American influance/marketing on anime (ie people realizing they have to play PC to play in the american market) than anything.

One other thing I will point out is that you must consider that the US black-sub culture is considered to be almost universally obnoxious. In the US it is tolerated and becomes the source of a lot of humor, but consider the constant "legally protected, status seeking minority, with a bad attitude and a foul mouth" isn't really respected. This kind of thing is seem through the world as being the downside/problem that makes a lot of otherwise fairly civilized nations way of the American concept of civil rights. Notice that the first thing mentioned in making a black character "more black" would be putting some kind of gaudy, and obnoxious ornament on his "vehicle". Strangely that kind of thing despite sounding racist in a way does very much stereotype black behavior in the US. People in the US are tolerant of it, and even make movies playing it up for humor, but when it comes to their fantasies I don't think people in other nations (especially occupied ones like Japan who are still trying to hold onto a theory of cultural/racial supremism despite everything) really earmark it for emulation in fantasy.

*THAT* said I will say while my memory isn't the best I seem to remember that "801 TTS Airbats" had an exotic dark skinned pilot as the major supprting character (it's been a while). While a comedy the primary heroine of "Knights Of Ramune" was also dark skinned. You will notice in both cases that neither character even remotely acted "Black" by US standards however. Barret I believe was largely a creation for the American audience (Final Fantasy was international by that point), in general I found him somewhat of a stereotype and was kind of surprised that noone was commenting about his former life as a career inmate which was I believe Japan's attempt to make him uhhh... more realistic.

At any rate while I'm sure some people will be yelling and screaming, I will say that the only way your going to see more serious Black characters in international fantasy (and this includes things like 2000AD in Europe where the civil rights movement exists but isn't anything like the US) your going to need to see Africa and various "black island nations" like Haiti and Jamaica stabilize and become more of a serious world participants as opposed to poor "trouble spots" that periodically seem to suffer civil wars and arguably represent the arm pit of the planet. This means the people there ultimatly have to get their act together. If American blacks want more international recognition except perhaps as comedians and troublemakers they also have to get their act together. I mean in a society where their popular music includes likes like "The cops give an attitude, walk it like it's hard" followed by a guy rambling about flying a "Crypt flag", toting an AK-47, and making people disappear, and games like "San Andreas" seem to try and sell/justify this kind of a lifestyle in respect to the rest of the country an outsider is not going to view it as being positive and really have his imagination looking towards blacks as heroes.

That's long and rambling but it's my opinion. Try not to flame me too hard. I'm not a "PC" person and am just killing time.

>>>----Therumancer--->

Jimmy_Scythe · April 2006

Therumancer is right about the Japanese being racial supremesists. For a good example of this google Unit 731. The truely shocking part of that incident is that no one involved was every tried for war crimes or crimes against humanity.

I think you are totally off base in your conclusions about African-American culture. Much of the reason that African-Amercans are considered "obnoxious" or "funny" is due to a fear of blacks that most whites are fed with their mother's milk. Much of the crime that you talk of is a direct result of organized efforts by whites to foster this kind of behaviour in the black community. The first "gangsta" rap albums were published by white owned record companies. much of the "bling" chasing that is portrayed in the US media is made by white advertising companies that are trying to encourge binge spending by blacks. Most of the police force in urban areas of the US are white and more likely racially profile without thinking about it. Most judges in the US are white and also prone to convicting and enforcing harsher sentences on blacks. There are way more than enough statistics out there to support this.

As for song lyrics......

"I shot a man just to watch him die" -Johny Cash

"If you want yourself a girl with a tight little kitty, better find yourself a girl with itty bitty titties" -Ken Karlyle and the Cadilac Cowboys

"Mommies, I'm stealing your babies" -GWAR

I could probably go on like this all day. African-Americans hardly have a monopoly on violent, misogynistic, and "obnoxious" imagery. The international community bases it's views of blacks on the stereotypes and platitudes of the US. Strangely, they don't turn that kind of stereotyping on whites, hispanics, or asians. I can understand not turning that stereotype on asains when it comes to anime, but whites and hispanics?

As a side note to Xploror: both Tetsuo and Kenada from the movie Akira are very identifiable as asians. They are both have olive compexion, straight black hair, and slightly slanted eyes. The eyes still take up two thirds of their head, so you don't notice the slant so much.

Augustusa1 · April 2006

I'm going to simplify this entire argument with one statment, that i have found to be true:

"Minorities like white girls"

and thats why you see so many in Anime. I don't hold it against them, i'm white and i like white girls too.

Therumancer · April 2006

Simply put there is a big differance between putting a bit of shock/violence/sex into music and trying to sell a lifestyle/subculture. Noone is saying blacks (or rappers) invented the idea of violence and profanity in music. Also whites are not taught to fear black people or anything of the sort, rather blacks go out of their way to broadcast that image of themselves in order to gain a form of empowerment. The origins of the rap industry with white producers shows very little except business savvy since any way you look at it the markets of large minorities net a lot of money. Plus there are a lot of whites who are also into the whole rap scene simply because it's anti-societal and they think they can shock people.

All told this isn't about the black subculture and it's origins, problems, etc.. we can argue that until we're blue in the face. It's a contreversial issue that isn't going to be resolved in an internet forum dedicated to gaming. All told we'll probably wind up yelling about whether or not Bill Cosby is some kind of cultural sell out (or if such a thing even exists) and other issues as a result.

Whether you agree with me or not this is how things are perceived, and this is why you see so few black characters in Anime, Manga, Euro-Comics, and other "Foreign" media. It's been remarked upon in so many places and in so many ways that it's ridiculous and this is simply my opinion from what I've seen in real life, and what I've read on the subject (as I for example an neither a citizen of the UK or any Asian company).

Indeed it was probably less than a month ago when I was part of this same basic conversation under the general heading of "why there aren't more Blacks in Warhammer/Warhammer 40k" which lead into an entire discussion which branched into european comics like 2000AD (a shared universe involving characters like Judge Dredd, Sinister Dexter, and others) and euro-fiction in general. If you think I'm a bastard for saying what I have about Black Culture in the US just listen to what people in other countries (like the UK) say about it. Trust me the worst bigots and racists in the US are probably more liberal than some of the people overseas who don't even seriously try and deal with the social issues we do.

The bottem line is the only developed nation that seems to try and have any respect for Blacks and produces major amount of media is the US. They just don't make it into the popular fantasy of the world culture at large unless they are hanging out with a Tarzan type or boiling people in giant pots or whatever for the most part (usually in retro-type stories).

When it comes to Anime specifically it's not just a lust after white women, although sex sells and a lot of caucasian characters *ARE* hot chicks. You also see a lot of guys. While the Japanese guy is usually the hero you frequently have a badA$$ supporting character or lethal weapon "buddy" role filled by a caucasian (who is usually either american or a pseudo-american depending on the setting). Some of the european-style sword and sorcery stuff might feature a cast that is supposed to be almost entirely caucasian if you look at the intent of the designers and the way things are styled. Even if most of the characters have Japanese names (which is usually an intent to use 'realistic' names but comes from the fact that a lot of Japanese think European/American names sound funny the same way how a lot of us think theirs do).

Notice that even in fighting games and stuff one of the initial roster is usually an American, and you might even see two or three. In the Street Fighter mythos for example Guile, and Ken (arguably the second most favored character in the series after Ryu, and his equal in all things) were both from the US and have been there since the beginning.

There is a lot of Anti-US sentiment and even outright hatred though Japanese Culture, and you see this message in their pop culture. But unlike most other "Races" there is also a degree of respect, and yes (as people have pointed out) a great degree of emulation. We beat a people who thought they were invincible and born to rule the world (and deep down inside many still are as you might get from their pop culture) and then basically pulled them back up. They have a weird love-hate relationship with the US where they resent us and love/respect us at the same time. It's very hard to really put into words, and I know many others have failed to do so when discussing issues like this in regards to Anime and the intended "message" behind certain storylines.

At any rate, I'm tired and rambling but the bottem line is that when it comes to Anime/Games I think this is why you see so few blacks, and honestly whether you agree with me or not, I do not think you are going to see many more in games, movies, manga (not all of which is from Japan, a lot comes from Korea), and even European imports (stuff like Warhammer and it's assorted novels and games and such.... as I said further above, Warhammer has sparked similar debates. While there might have been one drawn somewhere I know some people have been making a big deal out what seems to be a total lack of Black or Hispanic Space Marines).

>>>----Therumancer--->

Therumancer · April 2006