PvP but yet different from the other threads

Camaalis · January 2004

As I was looking around at the different PvP topics I noticed that many players seemed to generalized, either purposefully or through ignorance, as only one type of player. I've read quite a few threads about how pvpers only enjoy preying on the weak and spreading frustation amongs other players. This leads me to believe that the people who made these statements failed to realize that there is really three major categories for pkers which are PKer, RPKer, and griefer. I will explain these three categories below,

PKer: This player loves the thrill of going against another opponent. The strategy and skill required makes it much more enjoyable to them then just killing random spawns. People in this category will often not attack a newb unless provoked, and mainly go after people their level or higher.

RPKers: This is a strange group. This group often gets unfairly labeled as griefers. People in this group often take upon a story and then roleplay and kill through it. Many of the characters in this genre are theives, assassins, avenging paladins, etc. A paladin, for instance, in this category will likely smite all evil characters and not just strong ones as their story goes. They do not mean to intentionally inflict frustation on their prey but it does tend to happen. An rpker will often expect retaliation and welcome it as long as its in a roleplaying manner.

Griefers: The ones myths are made of. These are the people that have ruined the name of all pvpers. These players do not like fighting even numbers or people their level. They may just prey on the weak to annoy a player or train a mob. The biggest misconception about griefers is that they only occur in pvp games which is completely false. I've played many MMOs where a higher level person has purposefully trained a lower level group. However griefers are a very small portion of the population. From my experience they are 5 % of the pvper crowd and probably about 1-3 % of the whole. They really are a group blown out of porportion I would say the exploiters are just as much of a problem as griefers.

Well I guess I'll end my agrument there, I'll finish by saying personally I'm an RPKer. And another point I think most people miss is alot of PvPers love killing griefers as they make a bad name for us all and each and every one of us has been victimized in the past by one of them.

Koltrane · January 2004

An excellent post! You are quite right to distinguish between different types of PvPers. I would go so far as to say that there are even more classes than those you have presented here (e.g. Avengers - people who PK griefers and others solely to avenge the death of a friend or character who was unjustly killed), but they would probably just be subcats of the three you have defined.

I have met a few RPKers in my time, and I find that a number of them are actually griefers trying to legitimize their behavior. In much the same way that patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel, roleplaying is the last refuge of the griefer. True RPKers are a rare breed. They often immerse themselves in their characters, speaking in thees and thous and m'lords and m'ladys. An RPKer who calls you "dude" is a griefer in a roleplayer's clothing.

I still think anyone who PKs me from behind without provocation is a griefer, whether he is my level or not. While it may well only be 3% or the population, they seem to do 90% of the killing, at least in my experience. It is rare that a player of my level or lower looks me in the eye, makes me aware of his intentions, then attacks. If PKers (by your definition) love nothing more than the thrill of going against a human opponent, then they should be prepared to attack that opponent head on.

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate. (written on the SW:G CD)

A: 73% E: 73% S: 40% K: 13%

TMcC · January 2004

I dont care what kind of pker u call me....Im a pker. But what all these people dont understand is if i go out and pk a noob or even a higher level player then me, i dont give a damn. But I also dont mind gettin ganked on any of my characters and if i lose half my fortune creepin out in the woods by a pker thats cool with me, thats my fault and this is what makes pvp games so much better then non pvp games or consensual pvp games. Remember its a game.....remember? I miss the days gettin up saturday morning bein still half buzzed and hoppin on one of my pkers on UO. Id be all stocked up with tons of regs, pots, vanqs, ect. Some days Id go all day and kills dozens of players, some days Id get killed in the first dungeon i went to. The point im tryin to make is I hope one of the upcoming games thats promising all out pvp and looting doesnt sell out like UO or any of these other games and protect the little whiners....but I guess money talks and bullsh@# walks so these games make changes. And as for the whiners....if u dont wanna get pked dont get DE or DF cuz im gonna be the one beatin u down and when u whine im gonna do it again. Just play baby games like WoW or Horizons.

ianubisi · January 2004

Originally posted by TMcC
I dont care what kind of pker u call me....Im a pker. But what all these people dont understand is if i go out and pk a noob or even a higher level player then me, i dont give a damn. But I also dont mind gettin ganked on any of my characters and if i lose half my fortune creepin out in the woods by a pker thats cool with me, thats my fault and this is what makes pvp games so much better then non pvp games or consensual pvp games. Remember its a game.....remember? I miss the days gettin up saturday morning bein still half buzzed and hoppin on one of my pkers on UO. Id be all stocked up with tons of regs, pots, vanqs, ect. Some days Id go all day and kills dozens of players, some days Id get killed in the first dungeon i went to. The point im tryin to make is I hope one of the upcoming games thats promising all out pvp and looting doesnt sell out like UO or any of these other games and protect the little whiners....but I guess money talks and bullsh@# walks so these games make changes. And as for the whiners....if u dont wanna get pked dont get DE or DF cuz im gonna be the one beatin u down and when u whine im gonna do it again. Just play baby games like WoW or Horizons.

If you took away all the broken english and lack of punctuation, and wrapped these comments up in the core argument (being I'll gank anyone I can and expect to be ganked too) I'd have so much more respect for you as a player and the position you represent. I take more issue with the 'tude than the playstyle.

But that's just me.

TMcC · January 2004

Why in the fu@# would u think i give two shi#@ what u think about me? And Im not in school anymore and im not tryin to make my old english teachers proud dork, this is a site about games u retard.

TMcC · January 2004

Amen Dalavari i have been sayin that for years.

Koltrane · January 2004

TMcC and Dalavari - maybe you can answer this question for me.

Why do you and your ilk hoard such hostility toward people who don't want to play your gamestyle, don't try to play your gamestyle, don't infringe on your gameplaying, and basically have absolutely nothing to do with the PvP world? I honestly don't get it! Please enlighten me.

I hate Star Wars: Galaxies. I think it is the lamest MMOG since TSO, but I don't run all over the boards calling players of SW:G names and deriding them at every turn. I may criticize the GAME...that's fair. But SW:G players apparently love the game. I may not share their love, but that is not my concern. If these people walked into my DAoC or EQ or AC server and demanded I change to their way, then I would have a big problem.

Most major games have PVP only servers and no one is preventing you from spending all your waking hours there, PKing and ganking to your hearts' content. Therefore, I ask again, why are you so bitter toward people who don't want to put up with your PKing? They're on a different server or even a different bloody game and you are still mad at them and insult them in some childish attempt at provocation. Why? I really, honestly want to know why they get under your skin so.

And ianubisi is right, the 'tude is about 90% of the problem.

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate. (written on the SW:G CD)

A: 73% E: 73% S: 40% K: 13%

ianubisi · January 2004

Originally posted by TMcC
Why in the fu@# would u think i give two shi#@ what u think about me? And Im not in school anymore and im not tryin to make my old english teachers proud dork, this is a site about games u retard.

You cared more than enough to mouth off like a petulant little Ritalin addict. Try again.

Camaalis · January 2004

Originally posted by Dalavari
I have read many posts on PvP systems of MMORPGs and how they are forced, unfair, make the game less fun to play etc. etc. etc. blah blah blah. I am just really tired of all the whining! The people of MMORPGs need to get over the shock that the MMORPG experience has expanded to include foes that are human, that are as intelligent, and capable of executing tactical plans as they are. PvP systems merely make an MMORPG more realistic, more challenging, and providing the possibility of drama, conflicts, two way rpging (human vs human rather than human vs computer). etc. I am beginning to think that the only people who are enraged by PvP are those who simply can't cut it in the PvP world and or are content with playing a game where their is less rpging, no conflicts, and is merely a world where you just socialize, gossip, and argue all day long. Another problem is parents buying their spoiled mouthy 10 year old children games that are far beyond their comprehension, and places them in a world that they will be alienated because they are an at an age when they are annoying, immature little brats. There should be a law that prohibits people from purchasing MMORPGs for a person under the age of 16. What makes a PvP system a failure or an uncontrollable problem is the population of individuals that do not know what they are doing. Ok I think I have vented everything I had on my mind... I feel better now...

I whole heartedly agree. Often the people whinning and complaing are the ones who don't have the maturity level to handle the experience. I often find its the younger ages 16 and under that can't handle the concept of pvp. But what I don't understand is why time and time again people play these pvp games made for ADULTS while their still minors don't like them and then whine. If you don't like pvp fine all the power to you, but go away don't come back and whine about why you got pked AND DON'T BUY ANOTHER PVP GAME. If you didn't like the pvp experience the first time your not likely gonna enjoy it this time.

Now I know I'm coming off as crude, and I don't mean to. Hey, I have no problem with pve games. I played EQ for a long time. If someone wants to spend their time playing that type of game all the power to them. Every person is different and every person wants different things. Whats really aggitating me is the thought process that if you don't play the game I play then your stupid and your ideas are valueless. Now this is coming from both sides and I agree with the earlier poster that aditude is the biggest part of the problem. I'm tired of people coming onto my game forums and telling fallacies about the game and scarying people off with pure crap that isn't true.

P.S. I don't think RPKers are as rare as people think. There is no doubt its more of a quiet group. The reason most people don't hear about them is no new game has come out that gears towards them. Most of us play on private UO shards and stick to those communities. I would also agree with the above post on the comment of griefers posing as RPKs. You can always tell a real RPK from a false one. If he says dude then he's not an RPKer.

higgsboson · January 2004

Originally posted by Dalavari
I have read many posts on PvP systems of MMORPGs and how they are forced, unfair, make the game less fun to play etc. etc. etc. blah blah blah. I am just really tired of all the whining! The people of MMORPGs need to get over the shock that the MMORPG experience has expanded to include foes that are human, that are as intelligent, and capable of executing tactical plans as they are. PvP systems merely make an MMORPG more realistic, more challenging, and providing the possibility of drama, conflicts, two way rpging (human vs human rather than human vs computer). etc. I am beginning to think that the only people who are enraged by PvP are those who simply can't cut it in the PvP world and or are content with playing a game where their is less rpging, no conflicts, and is merely a world where you just socialize, gossip, and argue all day long. Another problem is parents buying their spoiled mouthy 10 year old children games that are far beyond their comprehension, and places them in a world that they will be alienated because they are an at an age when they are annoying, immature little brats. There should be a law that prohibits people from purchasing MMORPGs for a person under the age of 16. What makes a PvP system a failure or an uncontrollable problem is the population of individuals that do not know what they are doing. Ok I think I have vented everything I had on my mind... I feel better now...

Dalavari.

I've tried to comment this the other days but why don't you use different color (lighter color) than blue because it's hard for other to read your post during the day light especially if it's dark blue in the black background.

Why don't you use the font like everyone else?

Now in respect to your post, I have to say well implemented PvP is essential in MMORPG.

TMcC · January 2004

Koltrane im merely agreeing with Dalavari and Camallis. When these players buy these pvp games and then they complain about the pvp what would expect my attitude to be towards these idiots. As i said before, if u dont like pvp games dont buy em, and dont complain about all the pvpers who got the game for pvp in the first place. And as for Ianubisi talk ur shit on a website callin me a ritalin addict and blah blah blah because im sure this is the only place u would open ur mouth to talk shit boy.

ianubisi · January 2004

Originally posted by TMcC
And as for Ianubisi talk ur shit on a website callin me a ritalin addict and blah blah blah because im sure this is the only place u would open ur mouth to talk shit boy.

LOL! Did you puff out your breast and beat it while you typed that? Swaggah and sway! I'm all faint from the macho aura!

TMcC · January 2004

i dont have breasts fa#, is that an asian thing??? later noobie, i gotta go play ball...continue ur cheese curl eating and kool aid drinkin and tell u know who i said ill see her later.

ianubisi · January 2004

Originally posted by TMcC
i dont have breasts fa#, is that an asian thing??? later noobie, i gotta go play ball...continue ur cheese curl eating and kool aid drinkin and tell u know who i said ill see her later.

Have lots of fun! Be sure to act tuff.

Rulan · January 2004

I wouldn't mess with him, he might argue with you some more over the Internet.

Camaalis · January 2004

Originally posted by Rulan
I wouldn't mess with him, he might argue with you some more over the Internet.

lol, nice.

Koltrane · January 2004

Originally posted by Dalavari
Koltrane I think their is some miscommunication between you and I. I am usually a rather calm, peaceful, and understanding person.

I'm sure you are. In fact, after rereading my post, I think I am the one who came off as rather pissy. For that, I am sorry. Although I addressed both you and TMcC, I was really reacting more toward TMcC's attitude, because it seems to be prevalent among PvPers regarding their ideas and attitudes toward those who are not PvPers.

However, I am not angry at those who are on a different server or different game than I am. I am angry with those who knowingly purchase a game that involves PKing and when they do not like being at a disadvantage they whine and attempt to change it so that it better suites their needs and meager gaming abilites. It is not to say that I would not get killed 1000 time in a PvP system, or that I am a super computer player, I am not. It is that these people cannot accept the game for what it is, and the developers attempt to cope with these people and change the game. By doing this the game loses purpose, it becomes a mere shadow of its self, it is no longer what it was intended to be because these people were constantly arguing and fighting because it was not what they expected.

I agree with what you are saying. It is the same thing that I said. If the game is written to a certain playstyle, then people who know that ahead of time should know to stay away if they don't like the given playstyle. But I constantly hear people call me and those like me "carebears" or worse because we choose to play on a nonPvP server, as if there is no honor in choosing a style apart from theirs. This is where I have the problem.

Now, I know that UO made serious changes to rein in PvP, but does this (people buying a game and then forcing the devs to change it) happen often? I know some other games have limited PvP to specific servers, but are a good number of games starting out full-tilt PvP and then abruptly changing course because of a vocal minority? Perhaps they are, but I am admittedly unaware of more than those I have mentioned.

And if they are on a different game that I am that does not have PvP then why would they have a problem with it and post about it when this is not a concern for them in their MMORPg? Also people must remember that MMORPG are games, they WILL lose and or die a few time, it is inevitable. These kind of people are what lead to the fall of countless MMORPGs, however I also do not approve of some of the actions of users in PvP systems. For example, I would not kill noobs, I would not kill a player over and over again unless they constantly attacked me, I would however loot you because that is part of the game and my reward for vanquishing the individual. I would try to be as fair and honorable as possible but again that is just me.

The solution to those who wish to play in a PvP system and those who do not is to seperate them into different servers. But like I said above, you do have those who knowinling enter PvP servers and then argue, whine, curse, when things don't go their way. And that is why I get mad, and that is what I just don't understand.

My sentiments exactly. If you choose a PvP server, you get what you ask for, but there are those who act as if even limiting PvP to specific servers is ruining the game for them. I guess I'm seeing the other side. You are seeing people who enter PvP servers and complain about them. I am seeing people who enter nonPvP servers and complain about them. Neither action makes sense and whole games should not be revamped merely because a few imbeciles couldn't pick the correct server.

Also you said that you don't like Star Wars Galaxies and don't like the game, then what is the point of you playing it?

I don't play it. I did in beta and have followed it through friends who have played (most of whom have quit), but I have never paid a dime for SW:G (except for the stupid beta CD fee) and I never will.

If I came off as hostile I appologize for it, it is not within my usual nature.

As I said above, I think I was the one who came off as hostile. I appreciate your calm, measured and sensible response to my question. I think we are actually in agreement on this topic.

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate. (written on the SW:G CD)

A: 73% E: 73% S: 40% K: 13%

Clever_Glove · January 2004

For the love of all that good and holy STOP posting in blue!

-=-=-=-=-
"The beauty of MMORPGS is the merging of gaming and chatrooms. EQ is really just AOL merged with a fantasy game." - billus8

Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% Test learn what it means here.

Knowledge · January 2004

Well after reading this thread it's obvious to me that I'm not the only one who enjoys PvP. I'm still not sure exactly what type of PvPer you would call me...I have griefed (gotten killed by a blue and killed 20 blues) I have RPKed (killed a player and his entire guild for killing my brother) and I have just plain old PKed (killed people but only if they were properly geared up and capable of a good fight).

I've come to the point where I believe I just like fighting other people. I have yet to play a game where the AI is so good that I get excited about killing it. It's just not the same. I've never had hard feelings toward a MOB in a game...ok, well maybe after dying to it a few times but it was never anything personal...it couldn't be, it's a damn bot.

I just get an excitement from a PvP battle that I can't get from any other aspect of a game. I like to chase and to be chased. I like to fight one on one or one on two or whatever. It doesn't matter to me. What matters most to be is the thrill of battle. I love it when someone walks up to me and challenges me or threatens me. I love it most when they beg for their life after realizing they aren't so tuff. I like it when someone pays me to kill someone else or I avenge the death of a guildy or a friend or anyone for that matter. It's the battle I like. The fight, the kill.

If this is a bad thing, I don't know. I have killed a few noobs in my day but I don't think it's always been that bad of a thing. The noobs who die and quit shouldn't be playing anyway. But the noobs that have died, gotten stronger, come back and owned me are true fighters. Those are the types of players I like to play with. I've been killed as a noob plenty of times. It pissed me off. I've slammed my fist a few times. But I didn't quit. I got bigger, I got better and I returned to avenge the death of my own.

Well anyway thanks for taking the time to read my post. Anyone that has this in common with me?

ianubisi · January 2004

Originally posted by Clever_Glove
For the love of all that good and holy STOP posting in blue!

I second that notion. Really hurts the eyes to read that, and I tend to not want to read it because of that.

TMcC · January 2004

And that my freind is a perfect post Knowledge.

Clever_Glove · January 2004

Thank you Camaalis for the excellent post, this is the same thing I've expressing. Mainly there are many reasons to have PvP.

I think of myself as more achievement orintate PvP, I don't kill others unless there is something to be gained by it. Be it revenage, RP's..ect. I also use PvP as a means of keeping order. If someone trying to take a my camp I might warn them, then if they don't leave mow them done.

I think this may be a different chatagory since I'll likely never PvP unless there is incentive to do it. (beyond being able to)

Also a huge point of mine is the greifing happens in non-PvP games. People tend to over look Non-PK greif and think of PvP has greifing.

Best wishes.

-=-=-=-=-
"The beauty of MMORPGS is the merging of gaming and chatrooms. EQ is really just AOL merged with a fantasy game." - billus8

Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% Test learn what it means here.

Knowledge · January 2004

Thank you TMcC. I guess I'm just an all around PKer. It's good to know that I'm not the only one left that enjoys the risk of battling more than just code.

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