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MMOs becoming to technical?
Ponzini
Member UncommonPosts: 534
I was just ranting on some other topic and started going off topic into how techincal MMOs are becoming now and its been bothering me for awhile so im posting this.
So, with things like DPS meters, HPS meters, heck ive seen UIs that calculate your exp gain per minute to the amount of gold you loot per hour.. is roleplay just kinda thrown out the window? When I say roleplay I don't just mean talking like your the characters race or acting like your character, I mean trying to put yourself into the shoes of your character and being immersed into the game. When I was a kid playing EQ (when it was new) I just grabbed whatever weapon I could find and used it for many levels. There was no "dps" to worry about... infact people wouldn't know what you were talking about when you said dps back then. Most people used the same gear for 10-20 levels. No one said you were "out-leveling" your weapon, you just used what you found.
When you look at an item in WoW it has the dps and item level and depending on your UIs it can pull out a library of stats and numbers on the item. Since when did MMOs just become a MATH quiz? I find it depressing to see most of the UIs WoW has. The game is becoming more and more technical and routine. Everyone has UIs to tell them where to go and what to do in fights, everyones DPS, the amount they were healed, the damage they have taken, the spells can auto target and cast on their own with one button.
I dont blame the people that use these UIs and such because if its out there its to tempting to use this type of stuff. It does help out most of the time. I choose not to most of the time because it just makes the game dull really quick. I would much prefer to get to know the person rather than just know them by their DPS. Heck, why not just have their name be their DPS and get it over with so we can have less human interaction.
When will they be like they used to? Proboably never. Those of us that keep waiting for the good old days to come back will proboably never get the chance. Even if an MMO restricted UI mods as much as they could people would proably find a way because everyone is becoming reliant on all these programs to "cheat" them through the game.
The evolution of EQ shows how people just keep asking for easier and easier and they keep getting it. First there were no maps, no quick travel.. if you wanted to get to another continent you had to travel to the correct town and take the 15 minute long boat ride to the other side and just enjoy the scenery as you went along, no one had UIs to hold their hand, and it was fun. If you ask most people who played back them I would bet the majority prefer it "pre-dps" era as I now call it to MMOs now.
Well, this was something I haven't seem to many people talk about on forums so I decided to bring it up. Though im sure it has been many times. I hope future games decide to "rough" it up a bit and not make me feel like im cheating through MMOs now. I want a game to have LESS options (no AH, no fast traveling, no maps, no UIs, and deffinetly no DPS.)
Anyone else with me? 
Comments
But the thing nowadays is that everybody expects MMORPGs to be technical. If a game doesn't have all those technical things you mentioned, many people would just dismiss the game saying stuff like "it's not as advanced or creative as others", "it has not kept up with technological advances", etc.
I can actually see my character advancing with all the technical stuff. I can see it grow stronger with a new weapon, I can calculate my build so I won't make a mistake.I like it this way.
MMO's are only going downhill, actually I think games in general are going downhill. Developers are getting out of touch i think. Getting old, and they are trying to turn games into movies. Each year games are less, and less about fun and more about a cinematic experience.
We have movies for that purpose, games are meant to be played, not watched half the time.
In terms of MMO's, i havent played a great MMO in years. Since AC, EQ, and UO nothing has been any good. All it's about now is who has the freshest graphics... MMO's are just being done over, and over and over again.
Developers claim to have NEW EXCITING FEATURES! which are actually rehashes of previous concepts. Combat in MMO's is a total bore, level grinds are stupid. I remember when i first played asherons call I was level 27 for months just exploring the world, and learning the lore behind the game, and those we good times.
Will developers do anything about it ? god no, they are selling the pieces of junk to gullable consumers who will settle for garbage quality games. People think WoW is good? those people obviously like having their hand held throughout the whole game without any freedom at all. I'm sure they also enjoy the features that are oh so apparent in every other MMO...
The truth is the genre is doomed, unless someone grows some testicles and does something about this sinking ship. NCsoft at least is risky enough to try new ideas, IE : Auto Assult. I haven't played it yet, but ive heard good things.
It's not about making the best fantasy MMORPG - Dev's should be worrying about making something monumental, technology has improved but what have we gotten besides new eye candy?
I encourage everyone to look at Darkfall Online.
www.darkfallonline.com
It's being developed by a company in Greece called Adventurine. The developers are sympathetic towards players like us who refuse to settle for the same garbage rehashes. These guys are fans of old school UO and AC as far as i'm aware. That fact enough makes me trust them in making a good game.
The truth behind all this is that no MMO that's coming from a big company will be any good, because they don't care about creativity, they only care about their wallets. I encourage people to look for and support smaller development teams who havent been plagued by the smell of money, and you may find an MMO worth playing.
Sorry, I didn't read it (it's hard to read when you first wake up
). But I just want to comment that it made me laugh that you misspelled "too" in "to technical"
A Work in Progress.
Add Me
___________~____________
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth. - Oscar Wilde
I would like to see a twitched based MMO and see how that works out but it would proboably cause alot of lag I imagine. Ive played wwii online and it can be really fun it just needs to be attempted by a company with some funds (and not SOE).
Everyone is so dependent on having an easy MMO that they would proboably be scared of it anyways. They would have to pay attention to their character and use the right attacks (if its done right).
Maybe one day..
These are RPG's, if you want twitch-based action stick to Battlefield 2. DDO is kind of twitch-based, but to get round technical limitations everything, literally, is instanced. What's your definition of a "hard" MMO then?
No annoying animated GIF here!
An RPG can be twitched base fighting. Even FPS games can be considered RPGs in some cases. The deffinition of an RPG is not the combat system.
DDO acts like it is twitched based but its just the same thing in the end. Theres no different moves or any strategy in combat.
Im not saying MMOs just need to be a harder difficulty. Im just saying with all the different UIs, maps, fast traveling, DPS meters, raid helper programs, and voice programs... everything is to easy.
*shrug*
A HP meter.
Mana Meter.
XP meter.
And I am set, the other are extra and might be appreciated or considered as nuisances. DPS meter, no thanks, I just want to know which weapon is better (might vary with situations and mobs), beyond that it is pointless.
But that is me...and to the "becoming" aspect, I dunno, the first MMO I play in 1998 has all those "technicals meters", so I hardly see this as becoming, more as a continuity, an ongoing process.
CoH/CoV as well as EQ are just fine on the meters-wise. I kinda miss the AAs from EQ in CoH/CoV, but that is not really a meter even if it involve another meter.
Meters are good! I don't want a "Real Time Action" game, I want a RPG, and if you remove the action/real time, you need tools to replace that, and meters are wonderful. A game which claim to be real time action that feature more than 2 or 3 meters should seriously question itself, meters are a medium to replace some "real time action" stuff, at least at the origin.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Nah you misunderstood me. Of course you have to have an HP bar, EXP bar, mana bar (if its that type of game). Im just saying the DPS meters, raid assists, XP calculators, and all this crap that makes the game just easier and easier are not needed.
What im saying is that if you look at the average WoW players monitor they will have about 20 different windows on their screen throwing all these numbers and stats at you telling you when to move and when to attack. Its rediculous. Just give me the game simplified and give me some of my own imput into the game. I dont want to be told a million stats on an item or what level I should be using it. Raid assists in WoW will tell you when bosses are casting certain spells and they tell you to back away or attack at certain times. Its just a routine game that people play for gear. Somehow they have been fooled into thinking their time is well spent getting these items when it is just to get more useless items and will be lost in time once they get a new game.
That can be said about 99% of mmorpgs.
No annoying animated GIF here!
I think that this comes down to the two different uses of the term "RPG" in videogaming. To some, RPG means a game where stats and numbers define success, while others follow the original definition: playing the role of a fictional persona. Of course, the two have gone hand-in-hand throughout gaming's history, so many player's tastes fall somewhere between the two.
UI additions are one of those cases where one of the sides of RPG works against the other.: where statistical effectiveness is at the expense of immersion. Developers could try to ban UI's, but I think that would be treating the symptom rather than the cause. Some people would find a way to cheat round it anyway, and then the cheats would have another advantage over the honest players.
People use UI's because they help them get to the rewards (whether XP or loot) faster, and since much of that comes through grouping or raiding in most games, there's a social pressure on each player to use all advantages possible (like UI's) to "pull their weight" for the team.
I think the ideal would be to have a game that's more about the journey than the destination, but that's much easier said than done. In practice, about the only workable solution I can see is to have games that are as immersive as possible (so playing UI-less is it's own reward), and to have dedicated roleplay servers so that those who want to play it that way can group without being left behind by the more "efficient" players. For those who follow the first definition of an RPG (all about the numbers), UI mods, because of their mathematical superiority, are a Pandora's Box that once opened, will never be closed.
Dasharr Eandall, SWG, Smuggler/Pistoleer (retired after 2.5+ years)
World of Warcraft is a classic example of why their game mechanics has faults.
World of Warcraft has little to offer the gamer in terms of individuality, all armours look the same, all classes are the same, heck even all the races look the same bar a different skin colour and hairstyle.
Gamers will always strive to be individual, to have something nobody else has. Take this example
Orc Rogue and a Troll Rogue, but what makes them different? Nothing much really, they both have access to the same weapons and abilities. Kicking out that few extra DPS or exlaiming that you made 100 gold in an hour is what makes gamers feel different to the masses.
Who will be admired more? a rogue that exlaims he has a DPS of 50 or the Rogue that has a DPS of 60?
World of Warcraft lacks individuality and this is one way in which gamers can express some form of individuality.
Thats my take on things anyway.
Most people consider a 'hard' game one that takes skill, not a $50 + $15/month screensaver that the main difficulty is in keeping yourself occupied while you "enjoy the scenery". I have no idea why someome would want to pay a monthly fee for nonsense like spending 15 minutes staring at the screen for travel, I can get dozens of screensavers for free, which provides me with plenty of "hard" content like you describe.
Which is why the mmorpg genre needs revitalisation. Introducing or at least trying new ideas (or old ones from other game styles) is needed to improve mmo or they will stagnate. I don't care how great the graphics get, if the gameplay is consistently the same what's the point? As was mentioned earlier, it's like just installing a visually stunning screensaver.
Its one of the reasons why I always have and always will be in favour of revamping turn based combat in rpgs. I'm not saying fully twitch based, but something as got to change. Otherwise mmos will turn into a haven for the digital equivalent of card counters where the only thing gained is a better understanding of statistics.
___________~____________
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth. - Oscar Wilde
I loved how in Starwars Galaxies the first months I always hunted with random players (wich were all very friendly) we'd rest together, sit at camps etc. Venture to dangerous places (not giving a damn about how much exp a creature gives or with how many we are hunting (2 or 20?)
In World of Warcraft, people only group to get quests done they couldn't do themselves. afterall solo is better exp and u don't get held up. Hm a green drop? a blue drop? Hell, even a purple drop is not impressive anymore. Because of this its just one big grindfest.
Everyone wants that full epic set, but to do what? I remember starwars galaxies much more as a game where I was venturing with friends rather than grinding for profit!
Though u gained richess over the months/years, wich would show with your nicely decorated houses or how little u care about money (giving entertainers a few credits for their new instrument, afterall they had entertained u for half an hour IRL!).
Yes other mmorpgs, but also StarWars Galaxies has faded to black
Awaiting a new era I am!
At basis, all MMORPGs are about numbers -- after all, they are built on computer data systems where numbers are king.
However -- playing MMORPGs with a bunch of number-crunching, min-maxing elitest powergamers is my definition of BORING because they are not playing the game, they are playing "the numbers."
"XP should be a byproduct of having fun!"
... is exactly what I told the last number-cruncher who started pontificating about "optimal group size" and "calculating XP per minute."
"MMORPGs should be a place for your character to live in, not level in."
... is a paraphrase of something a player posted in another mmorpg.com forum with which I wholeheartedly agree.
~ Ancient Membership ~
Oh,
It is their lost honestly. Someone who is no using them will not only enjoy the game a lot more, but will master it better. Those tools might look to be cool and helping, but beside the dps calculator which I have to agree, the other only make you lazier and shortcut your brain.
I am not sure someone using those meters would ever have understand that a bard singing buff a stranger who have aggro which results in a train 15 minutes later as the mobs eventually cacth on...depending on the MMO of course.
They can use them as much as they want, their lost. (beside the dps which would be nice, althought turn off, as a resume every now and then to check new weapons and compare to old)
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
MMO has nothing to do with twitchy or turn based or...
its RPG that defines a game to being "just that"
I wouldn't call most of the games out now RPG's as no one roleplays the game (the defination says so!). I'd rather call them action or "grind" games
Why can't experience with the weapon tell you if it is good or not? Wouldn't it be much more realistic to have an expert crafter or a high level identify spell indicate the quality?
Instead of "an supremely accurate Silver Katana of Vanquishing" we ended up with
Katana (+10 tactics, x2 Undead, +20 damage) and also a hoard of other useless statistical crap that ruined the experience.
I dont like statistics. I dont even like Exp Bars (stat based games dont need them).
Words = immersion.
Mmorpgs should be twitch to a degree (UO perhaps, but certainly not click and watch).