Are MMO's done?

maharba

I just wanted to see if anyone else feels the same way i do.  I've been trying to quench my thirst for a decent MMO for quite some time now, but i haven't been able to find anything that keeps my attention for long enough. 

I began playing MMO's with SWG, and we all know how that went.  I then played CoH, but things got redundant after reaching around lvl 20.  I gave SWG another try, but after a week i wanted to stab myself in the face with a bus.  So my friends got me into FFXI, which was alright, but i never was able to catch up to my friends because we all lvled at the same rate, so i had to go out and find parties my own lvl. The cycle of hunting down a party for an hour then killing one thing before disbanding was what drove me away from the game.  Then i got into WoW which was fun for a bit, but i found it boring in the end.  After that i gave up MMO for a bit, but then my friends got me back into FFXI for a bit.  Time constraints drove me away from the game because i would lvl fast, but i didn't play a lot.  I then tried CoH again for about a day, but remembered why i quit.  Then i gave WoW another try and found that one of my friends played, but i couldn't find time to play so my friends got higher than i did.

I've tried Roma Victor and that was just weird so i didn't really get into that.  Today i tried out the EVE and EQ2 free trials and didn't find them that fun, so i don't think i'll be playing those.  I've been waiting for Pirates of the Buring Sea and LOTR online to come out, but my hopes dwindle for the greatness of those games.

I was just wondering if anyone else is tired of the same game with a different name coming out all the time and the lack of fun in some of these games.  I'm sure a lot of you feel the same way and that there probably are more topics like these.  If any of you know of any games that aren't bad,  can i get some recomendations.  I think i might go back to FPS, but those get old fast.

Gameloading

Well, try making a small list of what you like in MMORPG's. for example, are you looking for a PVP game, if yes, do you prefer Free for all pvp or faction vs faction? Do you enjoy crafting, do you prefer groups, solo or a mix of them ( chose when to group and when to solo). do you like raids etc. things like that. we can help you out then.

maharba

Well i pretty much like PvE and PvP, not RP much because i forget to RP and end up always saying stuff like "Did anyone see the Packers game?" and things like that.  In WoW i played all of the classes and all of the races, but i didn't really like any of them except the first ones i made, the Dwarf Pally and Warrior.  I ended up quiting because the higher lvl instance missions that require groups.  In my experience it's always hard to find a group, let alone a good one. 

I enjoy crafting, but it doesn't bother me if i don't.  I tried to get into crafting in FFXI, because i got bored of grinding trying to catch up to my friends, but that just made me fall father behind them.  I guess you could say i like groups when they're good and can get things done, but i'd rather be on my own then waiting to find a poor group. 

I guess i would say i would need a good community that is mature with pvp or pve.  Also i would like one that has good missions and the ability to craft things.  I guess it's hit or miss with me.  Perhaps i'm asking too much.

M1sf1t

Yeah I feel the same way. I wanna try out FFXI but the whole issue around grouping sucks big time. I don't even have friends that I know that play MMORPG's in real life so I am stuck soloing must of the time. Logging on and LFG'ing for 1-2 hours is not my idea of fun if you ask me. I've settle to give DAOC a try hopefully it will give me stuff to do and ways to get it done when I can't find a group.

magicalsteve

I don't personally think that MMO's are 'done'...

I think that more and more people like yourself are finally waking up and realising that 90% of MMORPG's are absolute garbage.

Hopefully this marks the end of the EQ clone era.

Nadril

MMO's have seem to hit a bit of a wall right now, but it seems like they are going to bounce back great with the titles comming out.

lonewolf1980

i don't think mmorpg are done, there is 1 up coming release that i think worth playing is Vanguard. I'm hoping it's not going to be another big let down like D&L.There are alot of new mmo but most of them SUX. Either the dev don't know what we want or they don't have any budget to make a great mmo.

i just want a mmo that have a skill system, player base economy ( dev control drops, to stop inflation ), a killer craftting system, pvp, player housing/city, just like swg, but there will never be another game like swg, i missed my jedi/armorsmith. And i'm not even a star wars fan, i only watched eps 1,2,3. :-)

sbarrett00

I think the question is less "are MMOs done?" and more "are YOU done with MMOs?"

anyone who does any sort of investigating into the business of gaming will tell you that MMOs definately have a place in the future of the industry. 

however, the difficulty seems to be creating a scalable gaming experience that will appeal to both the gamers that play ten hours a day to the gamers that can play one night a week for an hour.   i mean, this is exactly the problem you've faced - it's difficult to play with your friends because you're rarely on the same level with them.  it makes it hard to have balanced and enjoyable combat, right?

i'm looking for a game that will let me have anywhere from 20 minutes to 2 hours of fun in one setting - and I've yet to find one.   which I guess really begs the question "am i the right sort of person for MMO games?"  I guess I don't know- I feel like I should be into MMOs because i do like gaming.  But then again, I have so much real life stuff that i love, it's really difficult for me to devote more time to MMOs, which leaves me feeling like i'm missing out on this big part of the gaming culture.

Anofalye

The 'future' belong to MMOs.  The near future is another matter however, as MMOs are chronically failing to deliver a better soloing experience.  Some ward the soloers away, some lie to soloers, some say that solo lack, ask Boromir.  See, if the competitors are good at something, you have to beat them especially on that field, you automatically win on the other fields (grouping+).

The first MMO to master solo & grouping on a PvE aspect will rake the market.  The best soloer on the server has to be required to earn everything soloing, the best grouper on the server has to be required to earn everything by grouping.  This is the very basic, a MMO who don't have a stronger soloing appeal than Oblivion won't be as successful as another who would, this is a very important criteria, almost as important as grouping. 

PvP, Raiding and tradeskills are secondary compare to the central position grouping and soloing should have.  It is pointless to master PvP, Raiding or Tradeskill if you can't say that your MMO is better than Oblivion, solo-wise and can compete with CoH group-wise.

The 'Big' MMO will:

- Beat Oblivion solo-wise.

- Beat CoH group-wise.

Everything else is trivial compare to those two very essential central points.  I am trying to write this in a design doc I write in my free time, I am aware that a 1 person work can't be complete and will prolly lack some stuff (I won't reach the 1k pages for sure hehe), but trying to cover the basics...when I am not playing games...speaking off games...I have to return to Oblivion!  Later. 

rayk3400

yea mmo these days got to much PVE...

BlueCoyote

Are MMORPG's done? No. They've just gotten started.

ianubisi

Not only are MMOG's not "done", they are only barely beginning to scratch the surface of popularity right now. In five years from now, people will think WoW had a small population count.

They are far from being in decline.

MaeEye

I don't think MMO's just gotten started.  They started with UO and EQ...ever since...only a few good ones came out.  AC1. . .DAoC. . .and that's about it.  It seems like the most people want out of MMO's are the safety...I want to be able to be ganked anytime and stuff taken from me like old UO did.  And I want more grouping experiences.  Well. . .so far I'm looking forward to V:SoH. . .sure, it's no UO. . .but at least their going to try and make the game a bit harder than WoW did.  If V:SoH can't deliver. . .then its off to Darkfall. . .if that sucks...then it's off with me back to the free MMO's.

devils_hymn

true all those games are cool the best thing i think about ffxi is the dragoons im in love with that class 

Classicstar

If it ever will be released only true and superior mmo that comes out in near future is darkfall.

Only thing that maybe keep peeps away from it becouse is open pvp with full loot.

Game has it all its huge world and true mmorpg with rp,craft,clanwars,pk,dynnamic quest system, and so much more.

100% skill based no lvls no classes.

But hardcore only i suppose learning curve and survial will be much higher then all mmo out there NO SAVE ZONES no instance.

Vaah

I also think MMOs are done.  After 10 years of online gaming, and that includes MUDs as well.  I've finally woke up and realized there's no end to it.  It's just one huge timesink.  I recently went back to my console root playing new and old games, and it's a much more enjoyable experience.  After all these years I think consoles have finally caught up to pc in gaming again.

Xenduli

As mmorpgs go more mainstream they attract some real asshats. Ones who insist on ending every single sentence with LOL as if it is some form of punctuation. Accurate representation of a WoW player. They put me off these games more than anything.

fredrik1

Originally posted by maharba
I just wanted to see if anyone else feels the same way i do.  I've been trying to quench my thirst for a decent MMO for quite some time now, but i haven't been able to find anything that keeps my attention for long enough.  I began playing MMO's with SWG, and we all know how that went.  I then played CoH, but things got redundant after reaching around lvl 20.  I gave SWG another try, but after a week i wanted to stab myself in the face with a bus.  So my friends got me into FFXI, which was alright, but i never was able to catch up to my friends because we all lvled at the same rate, so i had to go out and find parties my own lvl. The cycle of hunting down a party for an hour then killing one thing before disbanding was what drove me away from the game.  Then i got into WoW which was fun for a bit, but i found it boring in the end.  After that i gave up MMO for a bit, but then my friends got me back into FFXI for a bit.  Time constraints drove me away from the game because i would lvl fast, but i didn't play a lot.  I then tried CoH again for about a day, but remembered why i quit.  Then i gave WoW another try and found that one of my friends played, but i couldn't find time to play so my friends got higher than i did.I've tried Roma Victor and that was just weird so i didn't really get into that.  Today i tried out the EVE and EQ2 free trials and didn't find them that fun, so i don't think i'll be playing those.  I've been waiting for Pirates of the Buring Sea and LOTR online to come out, but my hopes dwindle for the greatness of those games.I was just wondering if anyone else is tired of the same game with a different name coming out all the time and the lack of fun in some of these games.  I'm sure a lot of you feel the same way and that there probably are more topics like these.  If any of you know of any games that aren't bad,  can i get some recomendations.  I think i might go back to FPS, but those get old fast.

I agree, there mmorpgs constantly just the same game with new grafics.

I played WoW back in 98 on my pentium III, only real difference where the grafics... I have stopped even looking at MMORPGs not one of them are slightly interesting.

If you are looking to get back into FPS (but still like the mmo deal), check out World war 2 online as it got a free trial running now.
http://wwiionline.com/scripts/wwiionline/be_info.jsp

I have played it from 2002 and it never gets old, unlike shoebox FPS this game is acctually hard and very very cool.

maharba

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Originally posted by Xenduli

As mmorpgs go more mainstream they attract some real asshats. Ones who insist on ending every single sentence with LOL as if it is some form of punctuation. Accurate representation of a WoW player. They put me off these games more than anything.

---

I thought your link was going to be something more like this, but oh well, atleast i have my cloudsong.  Anyways Darkfall looks pretty interesting, i like how you can be good or evil depending on your actions instead of starting good or starting evil and not being able to change.  That would be funny to see an Orc fighting alongside a dwarf.

Beatnik59

I'm in the same boat.  Started playing SWG until the middle of the CU, when I just couldn't take it anymore.  Returned on a free trial in the NGE, and voted with my feet.

Played CoH, EQ2, and now I'm in EVE.  I don't mind EVE, but I'm basically there because there is nothing much else out there.

As far as the question of MMOs, its difficult to say.  On the one hand you have many more people who want to do something with this genre still.  People are experimenting with several different combinations that they think may work better.  There is a whole lot of thought going into these games, and I have noticed that people don't think about this kind of stuff unless they believe in a future.  Today we have more variety than ever before, and more choices.  It doesn't feel like it though.

On the other hand, I look at the sidebar and see fewer titles in the "In Development" section than ever before in recent memory.  I look at DDO and Auto Assault, and see their lukewarm player numbers, and I have to wonder if there is a future here in MMOs.  It seems that the games are too unpredictable, too expensive, too slow to create, to riddled with problems, and puts too much of the success or failure in external forces.

Then we have a "slime factor" that is holding this genre back, and is getting worse.  The sort of thing that these games have, that other games do not.  Things like cancelling the game after releasing a major expansion (Turbine's sin), changing the game writ large into something utterly different than what the game was billed (SOE's sin), abuse of pre-order money (Farlan's sin), pyramid scheming and selling hype only, and no game to go with it (New Horizons LLC's sin).  We are wanting to play games in an industry that seems intent on selling us question marks, and unlike any other form of computer entertainment, MMOs are becoming a situation of, "let the buyer beware."

Then we have Oblivion, which doesn't even have the "thousands of online players" type rhetoric.  People seem to love it, and the most telling thing about it is they can have fun without "thousands of online players."  Its almost like what Satré said, "hell is other people."  And indeed it is.  Grinders, griefers, farmers, clanners, RPers, n00bs, twinks, and everyone in between, we seem to complain a lot more about others, than be thankful we can play with them.

If the genre does fade out, it won't be because the games aren't fun.  It will be because other games that are not MMOs will promise fun, without all the troublesome baggage MMOs bring to the table.

SpiritofGame

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Originally posted by Vaah
I also think MMOs are done.  After 10 years of online gaming, and that includes MUDs as well.  I've finally woke up and realized there's no end to it.  It's just one huge timesink.

---

Huh? You make that sound like a bad thing.

Riotgirl

My position is a mixture of Ianubish's, Vaah's and Beatnik59's (very eloquent) posts.

I recently read an interview with Richard Garriott [Lord British] where he defines WoW as the pinnicle of 1st Generation MMORPGs. There are no 2nd Generation MMORPGs in his view, because all of them draw upon the same dynamics found in 1st Generation. I don't entirely agree with this view because 'generations' do not have to be original - but have to be innovative enough to advance the genre forward.

Vanguard, oft quoted as the first 3rd Generation MMORPG sounds to me like generation 2.2 i.e. same dynamics as the 1st Gen MMORPGs (heavily indebted to DIKU MUD dynamics, as admitted in their FAQ) but will be tweaking current 2nd Gen game mechanics to improve upon the game-play found within 1st Gen MMORPGs.

Sandbox MMORPGs that allow the player to shape their world and introduce player content will be the true successors to the failures of the 2nd Gen MMORPGs. As many have pointed out, a lot of the MMORPGs still follow the same old dynamics found in 1st Gen MMORPGs without improving upon them.

To explore this issue further, I think we're focusing too much on mechanics and not enough on the immersion factor. If we look at the evolution of FPS games from Wolfenstein right through to Farcry, what we see on top of the technial evolutions (game-engine, in-game physics, UI, AI, graphics, etc) is the importance of story-line and characters. Games are becoming more multi-media, cinematic experiences. The basic of a cinematic experience is story; plot; characters; dialogue; drama, etc.

Unfortunately, as Beatnik59 pointed out, us, the players, become the central characters in the story. Immersion and interaction can only be as good as the player base. I truly believe that if they [Developers] build it, then we [the players] will come. As story-line and narrative become more central, then by and large you'll get a much better player-base.

The real innovation will be the smaller, niche games that can afford to take more risks because they are appealling to a particular demographic. Think Eve, think Roma Victor, think ATITD [A Tale In The Desert]. The latter is extremely interesting because the dynamics are so radically different to current MMORPG dynamics. I suspect because the persistent world element has a expiry date i.e. the game has a start, a middle and an end. When the end is reached - either at a pre-determined time or when the in-game goals have been met - the game ends, and a new version starts.

Regards,
Riotgirl

Jimmy_Scythe

can't really say that I think MMOs are over, but I do think that they're at serious risk of becoming a permanent niche market. Then again, all computer and video games are at risk of becoming a permanent niche market.

From a business perspective, MMORPGs are a less than optimal choice for game production due to:

1) They cost buckets of cash

2) They require the user to be connected to the internet. More often than not, they require the user to have a broadband connection to the internet. Internet connectivity is still not available everywhere and, believe it or not, many areas do not have access to broadband.

3) They are expensive to the end user. Most people won't bat an eye at dropping $20 a week on a new game, but setting them up for a $15 a month commitment makes most people uncomfortable. Who wants ANOTHER bill to have to deal with.

From a gamer perspective they are undesireable because:

1) They require you to take on another monthly bill on top of lights, water, heat, rent, food, phone, cable, car payment, cell phone, etc...

2) They require almost as much time as a full time job.

3) Most MMORPGs are slow paced in comparison to some of the flashier single-player and multiplayer games like Halo or Madden.

I'm thinking that Dungeon Runners will probably seal the mass market appeal of "traditional" MMORPGs and games similar to WoW, EQ, and UO will see some severe drop in their populations. If not Dungeon Runners, then some other Diablo knock off that doesn't charge a monthly fee.

Jimmy_Scythe

sorry, double post

Knightblast

The problem, it seems to me, is precisely that multiplayer games are only as good as the people who are playing them.

Most gamers, I think, prefer rich, developer-provided content in a game, whether they are playing it on their console, as a standalone offline game on their PC or online in a multiplayer, even massively multiplayer, format.  The trouble is that as it currently stands it's the offline games like Oblivion that can actually provide better, deeper, richer content from the player experience than the online games can both because (1) you don't have to waste programming resources on trying to make the game work in an MMO framework and (2) you don't have to try to balance classes, balance encounters for groups and solo players, and the like.  So when you compare the content of even a very good, content-rich MMO like WoW or EQ2 or [fill in your favorite content-driven MMO here], the offline games are often going to provide equal or better content, and don't involve a monthly fee.  I think this is why, historically, MMOs have had relatively modest sales and player numbers compared to the blockbuster single-player games, and honestly it's more likely that WoW is an outlier than a harbinger of a change in the marketplace, looking at how other recent MMOs have done in the wake of WoW.

So what drives people towards MMOs then, even if they know that single player games have as good if not better developed content?  I think it's a variety of things, including: (1) the appeal of a persistent virtual world with other players in it (ie, the idea that things seem more "alive" and "real" when there are other players rather than 100% AI NPCs), (2) the appeal of competing against other real live players (ie, PvP) rather than 100% AI NPCs, and (3) the appeal of working together in groups.  All of these factors basically depend on the presence of other people, and what kind of presence they provide ... which again leads to the key problem in MMOs.  While it's nice to be playing around other people, if they are acting like idiots, the appeal lessens.  While a lot of players like the challenge of combat with other players in PvP, very few gamers like being repeatedly "ganked", or like to base an entire game entertainment around ganking or evasion.  And while many people like working in groups occasionally, the pressures of real life make playing a game that requires grouping (either in part like EQ2 or in total like DDO) to be unattractive unless one is grouping together with real life friends or SOs, both because of the time involved and the many bad experiences we have all had in grouping with people who turn out to be total idiots.

So really what you end up with is a situation where the appeal of playing an MMO (which largely revolves around having other people present) is more or less directly dependent on who shows up to play the game ... in other words, it's dependent on something that the developer can't control.  All the developer can do is try to reign in these non-controllable elements is alter the game mechanic to restrict player activity, which makes things feel less real, and therefore less immersive. Ultimately it comes down to who is actually playing the game, because in an MMO, the players themselves are a significant part of the content.

So ultimately I think MMOs are a niche game.  Most of the gaming market prefers to play offline games that they can play alone without interacting with other people, and without paying a monthly fee.  There's a smaller market for whom the MMO concept appeals because of the interaction with other players.  In my opinion, the best models for MMOs would focus on these player-driven, player-interactivity focused elements of MMOs, because that's really the core market for MMOs.  Instead what we see now is a lot of people chasing the shadows of what Blizzard did with WoW, and trying to create games that appeal to a crossover audience of non-MMO fans ... and not doing very well with this effort.  To this end I agree that what the genre needs is more games like EVE and Tale in the Desert, where the player interactivity and player focus is at the centre, and less games that are developer-content driven, because I think this is both the core advantage that MMOs have over offline games and the core attraction of MMOs for the core MMO player base.

angerr

it seems like most people in this thread that think mmo's are "done" are basing that on the fact that there isn't alot of games they enjoy or there hasn't been alot of games released they consider to be good games.

and to me that has nothing to do with mmo's being done, the fact is the mmo industry is rising and has been rising ever since it started.

more and more people are playing these games than ever before, no i don't think this genre is even close to being done....maybe for some of you that refuse to play a game unless it meets your standards then yeah you are done with them.