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pay to play
AgentMolder
Member Posts: 31
Pay to play is really stupid. companies give us that bs that they need money for maintenence and to create an "expanding world" and more items, monsters, ect... How does GW keep their servers up 24/7 and add new areas every month? Does anyone think pay to play will stop?
Comments
Someone's inevitably going to answer this thread with something like "people won't work for free"...
That mentality is why pay-to-play continues...
If only there was no such thing as money. Unfortunately, humans ARE greedy and if it wasn't money, it'd be something else.
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In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on August 13, 2008.
You will pay monthly for game , and than you will pay for items and content aswell...
I bow down to NCsoft for having guts to shake the industry and introduce free MMO's
"Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas
You're right, people *should* work for free. As the man with this great vision, we're expecting you to lead the way.
Chris Mattern
Humans are greedy as heck, but I still think P2P is gonna be dying out sooner or later. Look at how popular the F2P use real life cash to buy games are doing. Maybe not in the US yet, but overall. RV may be the first one to do well in the US, but the skill system is gonna scare off as many people as it attracts.
I am sick and tired of pay $50 for a box that offers me nothing but a disk taht is always so outdated that you end up downloading a new version of the installer and burnign your own CD just to save time from patching.
Buying currency seems to be getting mroe and more common, so why not control it yourself? If F2P with the company sellign currency and items is done well in the US market expect it to slowly take over. Spending $5 now and then to get something adds up fast when you don't see the monthly bill, it just seems like $5 no big deal. But as I add up the $15+ fees for a lot of games I sure as heck not getting what I pay for often and I know it.
Those that don't want that kind of play will just play independant games, like they do now to avoid the buying and sellign of in game items.
besides most people make mmo's to make money.... (blizz, soe... others...)
?played: Nearly everything.
?waiting: *Darkfall*, Hero''s Journey
(Guild Wars is mostly instances also. It's much cheaper and easier to run a bunch of instances with 6 players than 1 large open zone with 100+ people in it.)
The arguments fall into three basic kinds:
1) Yes you pay for a box and monthly. But the games are much higher quality, and take time to develop that quality.
I'd agree, if the games lived up to this billing all the time. MMOs however are some of the most unstable and buggy contraptions I have seen. They also tend to run out of unique content quickly.
2) The monthly fee pays for new content.
With certain notable exceptions (like EVE), this has not been very evident. Perhaps some content comes as a result of server fees, but the lion's share of content, and the best things are saved for expansions. Not only that, but the "content improvements" can also be detrimental to enjoyment. It can bring about nerfs, and wholesale redesigns, that negatively impact the game.
3) MMORPGs require staff, that need to be paid.
I agree that staff is a good thing to pay. That is, if the staff does anything to improve the experience. However, CS is usually woefully inadequate, and the live development teams are generally too busy designing expansions, and doing "scut work," to really be an assist in making the games better. Yes, in theory a live development and CS staff is a good thing to pay, but this staff could also be responsible for ruining our favorite aspects, as well as helping it. Just take a look at the NGE for Star Wars Galaxies to see how our $15 a month is used for "our interest."
Now if they would actually stand by the claims they make as to why they need the extra money, I could see it as money well spent. However, I have not seen any big leaps in quality, or sophistication from these people. Nor have I seen any appreciable content additions (again, with noteable exceptions) in the games. And in the case of my favorite MMO, Star Wars Galaxies, the staff I thought I was paying to make the game better, ended up being the folks that made my game worse.
So I conclude by saying that, if there was something tangible I could point to and say, "that is my monthly $15 well spent," I don't think I, or anyone else who likes these deep games, would have a problem with it. However, I am finding increasing difficulty at understanding exactly what that $15 buys. Server access? It costs far less than $15 a month. What can I point to and say, "that's worth $15 extra," besides this vague and abstract notion of "sharing an experience?"
I can point to several examples of my monthly fee being badly spent. But I can rarely find examples of my monthly fee being well spent, giving me a good thing, worth $15 a month, each month, that I wouldn't otherwise have, had I not paid for the month.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
If a 12 player server costs $40 a month, and those players pay $15 apiece, it means that there is a net gain of $120 a month ($180-$40=$120). So the question becomes, what does that additional $120 a month buy? What is the reason its $15 a month for server access, and not $3.34?
Online service to servers is relatively cheap. The servers themselves can be expensive, but the hardware generally pays for itself after a few months of subscriptions. Yes it takes people to turn them on and off, and maintain the data. But given the sort of revenue going in, the staff needed to do these things can be paid for quite readily.
So what exactly does that $15 a month extra money buy? To tell you the truth, all the stuff it bought in SWG made the game worse, not better. I had to pay extra, on top of my subscription fee, for content packs. The CS was non-existant. And the developers it paid for butchered the game, rather than help it.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I hate to seem like a total fan boy, but the whole game cost + subscription cost problem is why I love to play/follow indie games like Etherea: Dark Genesis. I'll use them for example:
Although they are in development they have said that the game will be a free download with a five dollar a month subscription fee to pay for servers and expansions. They have also said that everyone on their team is working for free and will remain to do so even after launch...all the money is to go to the game and future expansions (like a better game engine).
Indie groups like those are the ones that I think will end up "balancing out" the market like was mentioned on an above post. People who create games simply to create a great game.
MMORPG's aren't cheap, I understand having costs, but there is no reason for a fee to buy the game (offer free digital downloads and then offer cds that cost what they cost to make) and then a $15+ a month fee as well.
Guild Wars can survive because most gamers don't play MMORPGs for more than 6 months, given that a new game costs $50'ish that is about 9 dollars a month per player they are making. They also charge for expansions which means that is pretty much a constant figure (I don't claim to know exacts but that sounds about right from the given data). Given all that information that much money leaves for money to pay for the support, people, servers, etc plus money to expand the game and make a profit. That is all reasonable.
A game that is a free digital download with a $10 or less monthly fee is more than reasonable. Free digital downloads and $15 a month I'd still be OK with IF the game was really good.
I think the MMORPG market is still very new and has more than plenty of room for expansion in all the right directions. Even if big corps come in trying to make tons of money they will be balanced out and kept in check by groups just trying to make great games...and succeeding.
Good point, and I'm with you.
I don't think this is an indie/mainstream thing as much as it is a cost/benefit thing.
Whether indie or not, I'm sure you and everyone else here who want good games will be willing to pay a $50 box price, and $15 sub fee, IF they can actually see that this makes a difference in the quality of the experience. A premium price tag should by all rights justify a premium game.
The problem I see is that MMOs, both indie and mainstream, have the problem of taking money, and not really giving anything in return for what the money is worth. Maybe your friends will be able to give players a good value for their entertainment dollars. But I don't think I am alone when I say that I am willing to give them extra than the $5 they are charging, IF (and that's a big "if"), that money gives me a better game.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
you [b]DO[/b] realize how much it costs to keep an efficient server up, right? I'll tell you this, a lot.
P2P is very reasonable, I mean think about it, $15 for a months worth of entertainment. Now, lets say you play roughly 2 hours a day. Thats 30 hours of entertainment for $15.
a movie that lasts 2hours or so will cost $15-20
you could get about 2 movie tickets (no food or anything) for $15. (lasts a few hours)
.... ect.
Basicly said, it's a very good deal.
as far as guild wars, they can keep their servers up because it realy isn't a full flegged 'mmo'. Basicly said, they don't need to spend as much on servers, plus, they release expansion packs anyways. I aplaud them on the idea however.
AO basic has ingame ads that are fine with me. A few other games have done that also successfully. Also the cost of a 40 person server has no relation directly to the cost of a 5000 server. Yes it costs more but server costs are usually tiered. Which is to say the server setup for every 1k people or so costs less per player to run than a smaller population, usually, it is not *125 the cost, more around *40-55 at the moment, so cut your estimates roughly in half as far as running them. Also you only need so many people to maintain a given farm and fewer employes per server the larger the setup.
Unless something happens where there is a MASSIVE increase in quality monthly fees better be lowering or going away completely. I just read over the Phantasy Star Universe info after it was mentioned on a different thread. $9 a month, and an entire offline game if you don't want to play what is basically a sequel to PSO. How many times have you player WoW in offline mode, it didn't come in the box?
$15 a month is a lot more profit than you would think. costs get smaller per capita as you grow, not bigger. That is why all the F2P cash shop games have more users than any P2P but still make consistent profit.
The fee is $15 average not because it has to be to make a good profit, but because players see it as a standard and are willing to pay it simply because it is average. We call that marketing.
/agree whole heartedly
finally people are starting to get it!
At the end of the day a company will charge you as much as they think you will be willing to pay. If they knew that you would be willing to pay 100 a month for a single player game they would charge that.
Another arguement i hear is that they use all the money to improve the game and maintain it. Frankly this kind of thinking from consumers is bullshit, as far as i am concerned they take that money and they put it in their pockets and thats perfectly fine with me.... if i like the service i am getting. If they want continue pocketing my monthly fee of course they will have to invest and make sure they game is still fun to play as time passes but hey thats not my god damn problem. Its a shame that unlike other companies in other markets, mmo companies actually get fans and fanatical defender(fanbois) of their products. I assume its because so long as their product remains running, those people get to keep their friends and social statuses in the game so some people go to great lengths to defend that and therefore defend the product and/or company behind it.
Anyways just to point out reality once again a mmo like WoW could run subscription fees of $2-$5 or so with the amount of people that they have and be able to maintain their severs and development and still make profit. Even Eve could have probably charged signifantly less to maintain its server back when it was smaller, though expansions are free so it makes up for it. Why? because after a certain amount of subcriptions its just profit. Just keep that in mind when developers try to feed you why they need to charge you what they do and why they might 'need' to charge you more. Its all marketing and advertising, they are trying to get you to like them, that way you are more likely to give them more of your $$$.
I'm so freaking mad!
WHY DO THEY MAKE ME PAY FOR MY 2006 HONDA CIVIC! THOSE BASTARDS! $300/mo for what? A nice shiny ride? F' that! THat's BS! ARGG IT MAKES ME SO ANGRY! Oh, and what's this insurance crap? another $300/mo for what? just in case!?!? F' THAT TOO!
Seriously though.
Most of guild wars is spidered through the computers it plays on w/ VERY little actual server interaction. It's called the wonder of instances. And I still can't remember ever seeing that "NOTIFY A GM" button. Those cost money too. Then there are programmers who have to program ingame events.... wich GW doesn't have. Then there is Customer Service.
If you think about it. $15/mo for a game like WoW is pretty cheap. I'm willing to bet that's only a $1 or $0.50 net gain for the long term cheap subscriptions. I'm not sure if WoW has those, it's been awhile since I played. But, WoW does have alot of events and alot of customer service(including GMs) to deal with. Think about it this way. Each GM probably makes about $1500 - $2000/mo.
A Work in Progress.
Add Me
GW doesnt really count, instances r so much easier to run and by selling their game for 50 bucks a piece they definitely cover cost plus some more. Not to mention they r charging more money for their so-called "stand-alone" expansion.
L2 not worth 15 dollars?...most people play four hours a day (according to a poll on the site i believe)
so 30 x 4 = 120hours 15/120 = lol almost a dime an hour and im sure most L2 players play way more
plus...how many times do you forget to eat...do you not go out and do useless shopping cuz your busy grinding?
mmorpg may be a lot of unhealthy things...but they are definitely not hard on your pocketbook unless you lose your job because of it
GW counts in this discussion in the same sense that DDO counts. This is because if Guild Wars didn't exsist, it wouldn't have set precidence and shown us that a game made of all instances doesn't need monthly fees but will charge for expansions. Enter DDO, that instance everything, and still charge monthly fees and probably larger expansions as well. Now i say possibly because i truely think they are still decided whether people will pay or not for DDO expansions considering the state of the game. However i would bet anything that if Guild Wars(or Eve Online) didn't exsist that they would not only charge for expansions but tell their subscribers it would be impossible to develop the game otherwise on monthly fees alone.
In my humble opinion, DDO would have made alot more money if GW didn't exsist. I don't regret buying Guild Wars but i did stopped playing after 4 weeks. I tried DDO(at friends house), no way was i paying a monthly fee or buying a $50 box for an all instanced game .
DDO is dumb....i think i know wat their expansion will be, Cheetos stained controllers and free mountain dew for gamers
That is only if you are playing every day consistently. Part of the issue is there really aren't any games that have enough content to do that every day until the next update, well for those that want enjoyment out of the game rather than suffer to get the next tiny upgrade.
Right now I am refusing to buy any expansions for any P2P game. There isn't a reason they should be an additional $45 to $65 average for 1 months enjoyment (add box fee+your monthly fee remember), or if they are going to sell a box then reward players with atleast a free month of service to offset it. Or offer the bare bones data only for less download. Something, but I can mindlessly grind a F2P game while waiting for more content in a P2P where I would just be grinding cash or instances or such anyway. The value isn't there.
But I won't pay $3+ for some crap coffee with a label on it anyway. I spent $50 on a real burr grinder that I got in highschool, a $25 steam preassure expresso drip, and a Nissan commercial food grade thermos for ~$50...better water contact on the coffee from the grind, slower transferance through the steam based pressure for more flavor and that thermos keeps the coffee very hot for a good 2-4 hours without burning it on some crappy heating unit. Whats the point? Just because you are paying it doesn't mean you are getting the best.
Besides value per time played is much better in this equation:
Sharing mortgage with Fiance = ~$500 a month saved
Reduced insurance costs for couple benefits= ~$100 a month saved
Birth control for Fiance= $25 a month
Much better value
DDO is dumb....i think i know wat their expansion will be, Cheetos stained controllers and free mountain dew for gamers
yah sorry...i was too lazy to change it after i realized what you were saying...but i still think my point was valid so i was directing it at the general community anyway