First of all, WoW had some excellent elements. 5 million people might be wrong, but I kind of doubt it. WoW had one thing right from the start. To be successful, a MMORPG should be fun. A MMORPG that basically serves as a second job is simply not fun. Anytime I get a choice, I will select fun over having a second job. In the end game, WoW moves from fun to a grind. You grind through the same dungeon over and over again. At that point, I took my money and moved on.
SWG was rather interesting, because the setting and some of the game design was fun. However, other design decisions were not fun. You stayed with the game hoping they would reinforce the fun part and get rid of the non-fun part. As far as I can tell, SOE did the exact opposite. They actually made the game less fun as time went on. You keep telling yourself next time they will get this right. However, the game simply kept getting worse. I waited for space combat, took that free month, and then cancelled. I'm glad in a way. That one was starting to swirl as it went down the drain.
Now, Vanguard might be okay. They might figure things out and everything will be fine. However, with SOE in the mix, I see the chances of that happening going down. Maybe not zero yet, but heading that direction.
The beta forums are full of treads asking why people are not logging on
Most reply they are not having fun and find the world bland everything looks the same there are no landmarks.
Char models are all the same for all races and will stay the same
Combat is not fun instead of watching the mobs you are watching your combat bars to pull offchains which are the same over and over and over again. (its like a bad version of eq2 HQ's)
Someone either in this thread or another asked why it is that they would publish/host/acquire a number of games in the same genre that are basically competing directly against each other..
My guess? Hedging their bets and counting on the fact that if "Option 1" doesn't keep a number of players, perhaps "Option 2" will. Whatever players don't play 2, might well play option 3. Either way.. they win.
Along those lines, they're also changing the games, drastically, to try and cater to that "least common denominator". EQII is steadily but certainly turning into "World of Everquest" - it doesn't even resemble the game I played, and actually rather enjoyed, upon release in several aspects anymore. Their utter decimation of SWG will be told by fireside to this generations grand-kids with the same gravity as the Chicago fire.
Who knows what they're doing to Matrix Online.. a game that had much promise but whose developers/publishers needed help in acheiving their vision.
SOE excels at destroying good games, pissing off loyal subscribers and alienating legions of gamers. All the while, they're happily trotting along acquiring and destroying any game they can get their grimey little hands on.
I just wonder.. was a "battle system revamp" part of the deal between Sigil and SOE?
SOE: This sounds like the perfect arrangement. I believe we will both be pleased.. however there is one more, oh-so-critical-request we make of you, to seal the deal in good faith.
Sigil: We agree! And, certainly, what is your request?
SOE: (rep gestures toward someone to open the door... a line of hungry, wide-eyed, depraved-looking, CRT-tanned people walk in, each grasping the energy drink of their choice). You see these young men? Sigil: Yes.. they look... quite excited.
SOE: Indeed, they are! When they heard of our talks with you, they were lined up outside my door. Well, they came to me and made a very, very serious request... one I feel is very reasonable and, well.. is sort of our specialty here at SOE.
Sigil: (hesitant) Yes...?
SOE: To make this arrangement "perfect" for both of us, you will grant this team of developers access to the battle-system code in Vanguard...
Sigil: .... you want access to the battle system code...?
SOE: Yes. For a re-vamp.
Sigil: .. but.. the battle system isn't even compl...
SOE: Now now.. don't get testy. We don't want this deal to be off to a bad start, do we? It's not a huge request and, like I said.. it's what we at SOE excel at. We know what makes a good battle system, and we know how to keep players happy. Vanguard's system is.. good. But we can make it truly great!
Sigil : .... but what about Starwars Gala...
SOE: Starwars Galaxies! Perfect example! Look at how vastly improved, streamlined and intuitive we've made that system!! Players are absolutely falling over themselves over it!
Sigil: Don't you mean, falling over dead...?
SOE: ... I can see you are skeptical. And I don't much like your tone. But, believe me, in time you'll come to see it our way... So... deal?
Sigil: Well.. we really like the battle...
SOE: Wonderful! Well, let this mark the beginning of a wonderful partnership! No need to worry about providing the code, our developers have already taken the steps necessary to acquire the code for the battle system. It's also why they're so excited!
(elsewhere in the Sigil developers room.. a team of programmers are duct-taped to their chairs and gagged....)
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
When will beta testers learn that they are there to help test aspects of the game such as seek out bugs, too many nowadays seem to think they are there to play for free.
Being selected as a beta tester means the company has put trust in you to actually make a contribution, it does not give them the right to yell and cry like a baby that the game is no fun, announce they are taking their ball back and going back to WoW to sulk and flame the game on their forums.
Originally posted by OneMuslim The logical order of things to happen as i see it, from various other SOE games is this. 1- SOE starts publishing VSoH 2- Sigil will end up being bought by SOE and having full rights to do everything they want with the game. 3- there's no number 3 so for the people who fear that this game will turn into a mess, i don't blame them realy, since $OE has a reputation for ruining their games, oh btw mythic does that too.
EverQuest 2 isn't ruined. Mainly SWG and Matrix Online... learn your facts, and stop bashing a company just because you think it's cool.
If you have a FORD car and you run out of gas, do you bash the company because you're too stupid to put fuel in the car? No.
What I'm saying is this. SOE is probably for the better, and if people LEARNED HOW TO READ the other 400 POST on THIS TOPIC then people would understand a little better.
Originally posted by VixenHeart Originally posted by OneMuslim The logical order of things to happen as i see it, from various other SOE games is this. 1- SOE starts publishing VSoH 2- Sigil will end up being bought by SOE and having full rights to do everything they want with the game. 3- there's no number 3 so for the people who fear that this game will turn into a mess, i don't blame them realy, since $OE has a reputation for ruining their games, oh btw mythic does that too.
EverQuest 2 isn't ruined. Mainly SWG and Matrix Online... learn your facts, and stop bashing a company just because you think it's cool.
If you have a FORD car and you run out of gas, do you bash the company because you're too stupid to put fuel in the car? No.
What I'm saying is this. SOE is probably for the better, and if people LEARNED HOW TO READ the other 400 POST on THIS TOPIC then people would understand a little better.
everquest 2 isn't ruined? obviously you are not aware of the current pvp fiasco. from your post's you seem to be a fan of soe, which is fine everyone is entitled to their opinion, which means others as well as yourself also, so if you didn't lambaste everyone on the forum for having concerns over soe i would really appreciate it, btw interseting analogy about the car......
Hmm - I think posting in a Vanguard forum, defending SOE, shows slightly suicidal tendencies. Still, I must support VixenHeart here. I've been playing EQ2 for a year now. It obviously had not been finished, when it was published (SOE was under some pressure because of WoW), but when I joined, most of the bugs had been ironed out. They changed quite a lot over the last year, but the game is certainly not ruined. And while it has become more casual player friendly, it is still great fun to play.
Over the last 4 months or so, there has been a great influx of players (mostly WoW, who got bored, once they reached end-game) and my guild has doubled in size. This does not sound like the game is ruined, even if it might not be to your taste!
Anyway, statements such as comparing SOE with AlQueda etc. show how serious one can take fanatical posters such as these. Any game is probably better off without them...
Despite the off topic conversations, i guess i will post my feelings toward the co-publishing of vangaurd with SoE. Stupid, simply put. SoE has managed to destroy almost every MMO they get their greedy dirty hands on and now it has tainted the only game i thought to be salvation from the damned. Sigh...i was going to buy vanguard whether i liked it or not but now im going to have to find something else to look forward to, like the end of the world!
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Over the last 4 months or so, there has been a great influx of players (mostly WoW, who got bored, once they reached end-game) and my guild has doubled in size. This does not sound like the game is ruined, even if it might not be to your taste!
They folded half the servers because there weren't enough players to populate them sufficiently. EQ2's subscribership is not growing by any stretch of the imagination.
Anyway, I don't think this is good news for Vanguard, Sigil, VG fanboys and the general MMO audience. Word of mouth on VG has not been positive and it's very easy to come to the conclusion that MS was not happy with the game and was not willing to throw any more money at it unless there were some changes. Brad didn't want to admit his game was seriously flawed(yet) and SOE like the MMO whores they are, snatched VG up.
Originally posted by Atomicus Despite the off topic conversations, i guess i will post my feelings toward the co-publishing of vangaurd with SoE. Stupid, simply put. SoE has managed to destroy almost every MMO they get their greedy dirty hands on and now it has tainted the only game i thought to be salvation from the damned. Sigh...i was going to buy vanguard whether i liked it or not but now im going to have to find something else to look forward to, like the end of the world!
I just want to cry. Having Sony involved in Vanguard is just not good. I loved EQ1, until Brad left. The game changed. I moved on to SWG, then CU. I moved on. I just can't shake that once SOE has it's barbed fingers deeply entrenched in V:SoH that Sigil will be out like Verant was and changes come rolling in to change what we loved/hated about the game.
I have been waiting on V:SoH so long, now I just can't bring myself to devote the time I did to EQ1 knowing a CU will be coming in an effort by SOE in 2008 to counter some new game people love that isn't theirs.
To me seems like a lot of old swg people whining cause their game got nerfed. Personally i thouhgt it was very dry from the begining. But anyways, Eq2 in beta was ok, on release was playable, then they tried to hard to make it like wow and killed it soo i guess i could say i was burned there too.
But hey its just a game, its only gonna be about 50 bucks or so. and now i can try it ad still beable to play eq 1 which soe has been doing a decent job of making fun again, just after 7 years of the game i been dieing for something new that is not like eq 2 or wow, I hate how imple and easy they were. I hated hitting max lvl in only 2 months on eq2, wow i hit lvl 60 in about 3 months mainly cause i found it lacking and just could not get into it. Then DDO comes out and wow i did not think the games could get worse bu hey yah had to go and prove me wrong again lol. I have played just about everything out there. Eq1 and FFXI still seem to be the best options out, and i will still give V:SoH a try no matter who is behind it.
Bah, Take the dice bet 50 buck and see if you get 7's. every game you try is a gamble and most will not pan out.
Originally posted by Chieftan They folded half the servers because there weren't enough players to populate them sufficiently. EQ2's subscribership is not growing by any stretch of the imagination.
Well, actually, they did not with German servers. They just added a PvP server to the two existing ones. But, I don*t want to start arguing numbers, as I don*t really know exact figures. I just tell you my general impressions.
Heh, have to smile at some of the sentiment in these posts. I can respect the notion that some people now won't even look at Vanguard now that SOE is involved. (I'm a former SWG player as well). We do need to remember though that SOE was the DEVELOPER for SWG - not the PUBLISHER, the publisher was/is Lucas Arts.
That being said. If the rule of thumb is to run away from anything that SOE touches, then be prepared to run away a lot. Like it or not SOE is not going away from the MMO marketplace. SOE is actively looking for games to add to it's portfolio of Station Pass Access games. SOE also has a boatload of money at it's disposal.
If the deal is right SOE may acquire the publishing rights to just about any game you decide to play. So, unless you are willing to jump ship everytime SOE buys up another MMO; sooner or later you'll probably be playing a game that they have a hand in. The only game that is probably is safe is WoW. But, you never know what game the heads of SOE are eyeing next.
Comments
First of all, WoW had some excellent elements. 5 million people might be wrong, but I kind of doubt it. WoW had one thing right from the start. To be successful, a MMORPG should be fun. A MMORPG that basically serves as a second job is simply not fun. Anytime I get a choice, I will select fun over having a second job. In the end game, WoW moves from fun to a grind. You grind through the same dungeon over and over again. At that point, I took my money and moved on.
SWG was rather interesting, because the setting and some of the game design was fun. However, other design decisions were not fun. You stayed with the game hoping they would reinforce the fun part and get rid of the non-fun part. As far as I can tell, SOE did the exact opposite. They actually made the game less fun as time went on. You keep telling yourself next time they will get this right. However, the game simply kept getting worse. I waited for space combat, took that free month, and then cancelled. I'm glad in a way. That one was starting to swirl as it went down the drain.
Now, Vanguard might be okay. They might figure things out and everything will be fine. However, with SOE in the mix, I see the chances of that happening going down. Maybe not zero yet, but heading that direction.
Captain John Matin
Royal Red
Vangaurd aint fun...
The beta forums are full of treads asking why people are not logging on
Most reply they are not having fun and find the world bland everything looks the same there are no landmarks.
Char models are all the same for all races and will stay the same
Combat is not fun instead of watching the mobs you are watching your combat bars to pull offchains which are the same over and over and over again. (its like a bad version of eq2 HQ's)
Srato Ed: SWG,EQ,EQII,EVE,GW,GWF,WOW
Someone either in this thread or another asked why it is that they would publish/host/acquire a number of games in the same genre that are basically competing directly against each other..
My guess?
Hedging their bets and counting on the fact that if "Option 1" doesn't keep a number of players, perhaps
"Option 2" will. Whatever players don't play 2, might well play option 3. Either way.. they win.
Along those lines, they're also changing the games, drastically, to try and cater to that "least common denominator". EQII is steadily but certainly turning into "World of Everquest" - it doesn't even resemble the game I played, and actually rather enjoyed, upon release in several aspects anymore. Their utter decimation of SWG will be told by fireside to this generations grand-kids with the same gravity as the Chicago fire.
Who knows what they're doing to Matrix Online.. a game that had much promise but whose developers/publishers needed help in acheiving their vision.
SOE excels at destroying good games, pissing off loyal subscribers and alienating legions of gamers. All the while, they're happily trotting along acquiring and destroying any game they can get their grimey little hands on.
I just wonder.. was a "battle system revamp" part of the deal between Sigil and SOE?
SOE: This sounds like the perfect arrangement. I believe we will both be pleased.. however there is one more, oh-so-critical-request we make of you, to seal the deal in good faith.
Sigil: We agree! And, certainly, what is your request?
SOE: (rep gestures toward someone to open the door... a line of hungry, wide-eyed, depraved-looking, CRT-tanned people walk in, each grasping the energy drink of their choice). You see these young men?
Sigil: Yes.. they look... quite excited.
SOE: Indeed, they are! When they heard of our talks with you, they were lined up outside my door. Well, they came to me and made a very, very serious request... one I feel is very reasonable and, well.. is sort of our specialty here at SOE.
Sigil: (hesitant) Yes...?
SOE: To make this arrangement "perfect" for both of us, you will grant this team of developers access to the battle-system code in Vanguard...
Sigil: .... you want access to the battle system code...?
SOE: Yes. For a re-vamp.
Sigil: .. but.. the battle system isn't even compl...
SOE: Now now.. don't get testy. We don't want this deal to be off to a bad start, do we? It's not a huge request and, like I said.. it's what we at SOE excel at. We know what makes a good battle system, and we know how to keep players happy. Vanguard's system is.. good. But we can make it truly great!
Sigil : .... but what about Starwars Gala...
SOE: Starwars Galaxies! Perfect example! Look at how vastly improved, streamlined and intuitive we've made that system!! Players are absolutely falling over themselves over it!
Sigil: Don't you mean, falling over dead...?
SOE: ... I can see you are skeptical. And I don't much like your tone. But, believe me, in time you'll come to see it our way... So... deal?
Sigil: Well.. we really like the battle...
SOE: Wonderful! Well, let this mark the beginning of a wonderful partnership! No need to worry about providing the code, our developers have already taken the steps necessary to acquire the code for the battle system. It's also why they're so excited!
(elsewhere in the Sigil developers room.. a team of programmers are duct-taped to their chairs and gagged....)
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Is the game in open final beta?
When will beta testers learn that they are there to help test aspects of the game such as seek out bugs, too many nowadays seem to think they are there to play for free.
Being selected as a beta tester means the company has put trust in you to actually make a contribution, it does not give them the right to yell and cry like a baby that the game is no fun, announce they are taking their ball back and going back to WoW to sulk and flame the game on their forums.
Mentality of some gamers is disgusting.
EverQuest 2 isn't ruined. Mainly SWG and Matrix Online... learn your facts, and stop bashing a company just because you think it's cool.
If you have a FORD car and you run out of gas, do you bash the company because you're too stupid to put fuel in the car? No.
What I'm saying is this. SOE is probably for the better, and if people LEARNED HOW TO READ the other 400 POST on THIS TOPIC then people would understand a little better.
EverQuest 2 isn't ruined. Mainly SWG and Matrix Online... learn your facts, and stop bashing a company just because you think it's cool.
If you have a FORD car and you run out of gas, do you bash the company because you're too stupid to put fuel in the car? No.
What I'm saying is this. SOE is probably for the better, and if people LEARNED HOW TO READ the other 400 POST on THIS TOPIC then people would understand a little better.
everquest 2 isn't ruined? obviously you are not aware of the current pvp fiasco. from your post's you seem to be a fan of soe, which is fine everyone is entitled to their opinion, which means others as well as yourself also, so if you didn't lambaste everyone on the forum for having concerns over soe i would really appreciate it, btw interseting analogy about the car......
Hmm - I think posting in a Vanguard forum, defending SOE, shows slightly suicidal tendencies. Still, I must support VixenHeart here. I've been playing EQ2 for a year now. It obviously had not been finished, when it was published (SOE was under some pressure because of WoW), but when I joined, most of the bugs had been ironed out. They changed quite a lot over the last year, but the game is certainly not ruined. And while it has become more casual player friendly, it is still great fun to play.
Over the last 4 months or so, there has been a great influx of players (mostly WoW, who got bored, once they reached end-game) and my guild has doubled in size. This does not sound like the game is ruined, even if it might not be to your taste!
Anyway, statements such as comparing SOE with AlQueda etc. show how serious one can take fanatical posters such as these. Any game is probably better off without them...
----------------------------------------------+
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| ABIT AN8 x32 Nforce4 SLI x16
| AMD Athlon FX-60 Dual-Core 2.6GHz
| Corsair 3.1 GB DDR 400 Dual-Channel
| (2x) BFG GeForce 8800 GTS 320mb
| Creative X-FI Xtreme Gamer
| Western Digital 250Gb SATA
Anyway, I don't think this is good news for Vanguard, Sigil, VG fanboys and the general MMO audience. Word of mouth on VG has not been positive and it's very easy to come to the conclusion that MS was not happy with the game and was not willing to throw any more money at it unless there were some changes. Brad didn't want to admit his game was seriously flawed(yet) and SOE like the MMO whores they are, snatched VG up.
My youtube MMO gaming channel
I just want to cry. Having Sony involved in Vanguard is just not good. I loved EQ1, until Brad left. The game changed. I moved on to SWG, then CU. I moved on. I just can't shake that once SOE has it's barbed fingers deeply entrenched in V:SoH that Sigil will be out like Verant was and changes come rolling in to change what we loved/hated about the game.
I have been waiting on V:SoH so long, now I just can't bring myself to devote the time I did to EQ1 knowing a CU will be coming in an effort by SOE in 2008 to counter some new game people love that isn't theirs.
I would love to sit down with Brad and go WTF?
To me seems like a lot of old swg people whining cause their game got nerfed. Personally i thouhgt it was very dry from the begining. But anyways, Eq2 in beta was ok, on release was playable, then they tried to hard to make it like wow and killed it soo i guess i could say i was burned there too.
But hey its just a game, its only gonna be about 50 bucks or so. and now i can try it ad still beable to play eq 1 which soe has been doing a decent job of making fun again, just after 7 years of the game i been dieing for something new that is not like eq 2 or wow, I hate how imple and easy they were. I hated hitting max lvl in only 2 months on eq2, wow i hit lvl 60 in about 3 months mainly cause i found it lacking and just could not get into it. Then DDO comes out and wow i did not think the games could get worse bu hey yah had to go and prove me wrong again lol. I have played just about everything out there. Eq1 and FFXI still seem to be the best options out, and i will still give V:SoH a try no matter who is behind it.
Bah, Take the dice bet 50 buck and see if you get 7's. every game you try is a gamble and most will not pan out.
That being said. If the rule of thumb is to run away from anything that SOE touches, then be prepared to run away a lot. Like it or not SOE is not going away from the MMO marketplace. SOE is actively looking for games to add to it's portfolio of Station Pass Access games. SOE also has a boatload of money at it's disposal.
If the deal is right SOE may acquire the publishing rights to just about any game you decide to play. So, unless you are willing to jump ship everytime SOE buys up another MMO; sooner or later you'll probably be playing a game that they have a hand in. The only game that is probably is safe is WoW. But, you never know what game the heads of SOE are eyeing next.