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SOE/Vanguard: since we can't talk about it at Vanguard forums....
Rekindle
Member UncommonPosts: 1,206
IMHO -
SOE sucks the biggest suckiest suck of all the sucks--- Vanguard turns into the biggest disappointment of all time by associating with them (takes the torch from SWG - NGE)- Despite what the fancy FAQs say this is a bad move for Sigil.
Now when you walk into a store to buy Vanguard Saga Of Heros it will (I'm assuming) have a big SOE logo on the box.....I would have never imagined in a million years.
For over 2 years Sigil has been reading about how bad we hate SOE and they make this move...imagine.
For me Brad McQuaid's vision of EQ defined everything good about it, SOE's vision defined everything that was bad. The fact Sigil has re-affiliated itself with these SOB's is just so bad. Even if they make hte best game in the world any hope of Sigil filling in **my** MMORPG gaming void is all but lost now.
Discuss..........
Comments
Why don't you like SOE? Because they have one bad mistake [SWG]?
Some people are so fast to pull the trigger, just because other people are shooting at each other doesn't mean it's right.
.
Alot of company's would have loved to publish Vanguard. Going with sony was just easy for them since they all know each other/worked together in the past etc. Not to mention they'll pick up alot of everquest players that might have otherwise not baught the game. Hello station access.
SWG wasn't one bad mistake, but a series of mistakes... Still, I think most peoples problems stemming from playing SWG go beyond the gameplay changes to the adversarial relationship between SOE and their subscribers. I can't imaging staying in business if I were to show open disdain for my customers the way they do. They lie about, or simply choose not disclose upcoming changes to their games. Once those changes are live, they stubbornly support them regardless of how unpopular they are with the people playing the game.
Their priority generally appears to be new business before old business. The unpopular changes they force in to the game are designed to increase the potential customer base, but with blatant disregard for the affect those changes might have on the existing players.
Once they have invested substantial time and resources in to major changes in a game, they are forced in to a situation of defending those changes, no matter how unpopular or game-breaking they may be. They simply have to justify the development expenses. Rather than admit they made poor decisions, like with the NGE, they insist that the changes were not only the best option, but the only option... and were absolutely necessary for the survival of the game. Complaints about the changes are then either met with a combative attitude or simply censored.
The standard response from SOE seems to be, "We are right and you are wrong". They explain their motives and decisions like a parent would a child, or an employer does his employees. This is the way it is, like it or not, this is our decision and it stands... et cetera. It boggles the mind why a service relying on monthly subscription fees would force a wildly unpopular change on it's customers. Do they honestly believe that we don't know what we want... that we are incapable of understanding what we would and would not enjoy in a game? Or do they simply not care what we think?
They know that for the most part they have us hooked... that having invested a few years time in to their game, we will be hesitant to simply walk away. Sure, a lot of people will throw up their hands and threaten to quit.... but most won't. Not all at once any way. Hopefully we will stick around long enough for their changes to bring in the new subs they were anticipating... well, in theory anyway. I really don't think SWG can ever bounce back from the NGE. It's a shame that that game has to wither and die because of the developers stubbornly sticking to their poor decisions... and really, all this could be avoided by listening to their customers in the first place. In all the posts on their forums, did anyone ever once see someone asking for the new combat system, or the removal of character progression choices, or the elimination of a majority of the professions?
Anyway, i could give examples all day, but i think it's clear how i feel about SOE. As far as Vanguard goes, I just won't buy it now. I know it's a shame, and I may be letting my stubborn pride get in the way of a game i might enjoy... but i have simply been burned by SOE too many times. After giving them another shot and going back to SWG after the CU, only to be hit by the NGE... well, we are officially in "shame on me" territory. I simply will not get invested in another game SOE is involved in. Reading all the posts by Sigil telling us that SOE won't be able to touch the game doesn't change my mind on that. There is just no way I am going to do business with them again.
-----Zero Punctuation Eve Online Review-----
Hahahaha how very little you know about Sony Online Entertainment.
The list of BAD.. no... DOWN RIGHT EVIL acts that Sony Online Entertainment has committed over the past four years are staggering. StarWars Galaxies is just ONE MMORPG they have screwed used to exploit their customers.
The thing that amazes me is that you Vanguard fanbois can't realize this is not a small thing where a few people are upset with Sony Online Entertainment. There aren't a few hundered people that hate Sony Online Entertainment. No. There are hundreds of thousands of people that hate Sony Online Entertainment. You don't get an uprising the we the industry did this past weekend because a few people are mad. This is way beyond petty anger. This is down right hate.
A good number of books could be written (and probably will be some day) and documentary films be made solely on the immoral actions of Sony Online Entertainment. Some of their business decissions are VERY close to being fraudulent. I am still amazed that their has not been a class action law suit filed against Sony Online Entertainment for advertising in the Obi Wan expansion for StarWars Galaxies that their would be major upgrades for the Beast Handler class and then releasing a complete game redesign that completely eliminated the Beast Handler class 2 weeks after the expansion shipped. That's about as close to fraud as you can get. They sold an expansion for a character class that they were taking out of the game. Let me spell it out for you if you still don't get it. They had 2 development teams. One development team was programming the Obi Wan expansion which was being advertised to customers and taking pre-orders. The other development team was working on a complete game redesign that made the Obi Wan expansion irrelevant. The redesign development team and project was kept secret from the public, and it was only announced AFTER the Obi Wan expansion shipped. Refunds for pre-orders were DENIED. That's fraud.
And, that's just ONE example... ONE!
Then you got the $15.95 a month subscription play for EQ2 that you can get the ability to see your character on the website for an additional $1.95 a month. You can see the item database on the internet for another. You only got like 6 (cant remember exactly) character slots in the game for $15.95 a month, and that was across ALL SERVERS total. If you wanted additional characters slots. That's another $1.95 a month.
Oh but it gets better. Good ole Everquest 1. God bless em. New expansion ever 4 months that cost you a good $29 to $49 to purchase on top of your already $15.95 a month subscription fee. Don't want to buy the expansions? No problem. Except the fact that each expansion made the equipment in the last expansion obsolete, so in essence you were commiting MMORPG suicide by not keeping up with all expansions as they came out.
Oh and let us not forget Planetside.... the great MMORPG with in-game COMMERCIALS!!!! HELLO! How about a COKE... NIKE just do it!
I could go on... literally.. there is so much... SOOOOOO much that can be said.
Again, this is not just a few people that hate Sony Online Entertainment. There are literally hundreds of thousands if not millions that hate Sony Online Entertainment BECAUSE they are an immoral company with unethical business practices.
But, if you want to trust them with your time and money... There's one born every minute.
heltern I'm just going to say this once regarding your sig.........soe didn't buy anything, now proceed with the trolling.
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
Haha this sounds exactly like all the speel SOE fanbois were coming out with when they brought in the CU and the NGE with SWG.
The problem was it wasn't just a handful of customers they lost, and it ruined the game. So sometimes they should listen to the players before deciding what is best for the game.
I wonder if all the haters will ever realize SOE has nothing to do with the game itself. Only things outside of the game. Probably not.
Not sure how SOE is gonna wreck Vanguard without ever getting a say what happens to the design.
Now Microsoft, how can any of you PREFER this company? Don't you all use Windows? Nice, stable and bug free eh? Microsoft actually HAD A SAY in game design.
But don't let me stop your blind hate and thinking that SOE is making the game, although it does make you all look awfully retarded (Most anyway, Salvatoris I talked with before, actually makes sense, rest of you just cry and cry and probably only heard from a friend of a friend that SOE was bad so you figure you can say that too with zero experience)
Also basing your game playing choices on not the company that actually MAKES the game but one that is a CO-PUBLISHER is probably one the dumbest things I've ever heard.
The Brave Do Not Fear The Grave
If you believe that $OE will be content to sit back and have no input into the game then you are the one looking retarded.
$OE have been brought in to provide the finance needed to buy the game back from Microsoft, and whoever holds the purse strings has a lot of control. Especially if they add vanguard to their own station access as this will also give them a lot of control over the playerbase as well.
And even if $OE have absolutely nothing to do with making the game, they ARE going to be providing technical support. And that in itself scares me after the way they treated/ignored the players of SWG.
If you believe that $OE will be content to sit back and have no input into the game then you are the one looking retarded.
$OE have been brought in to provide the finance needed to buy the game back from Microsoft, and whoever holds the purse strings has a lot of control. Especially if they add vanguard to their own station access as this will also give them a lot of control over the playerbase as well.
And even if $OE have absolutely nothing to do with making the game, they ARE going to be providing technical support. And that in itself scares me after the way they treated/ignored the players of SWG.
precisely.
Wait, why can't you talk about it on the Vanguard forums? They censor your posts? Looks like Sigil has already imported the SOE Community Relations Standards of Excellence.
Enjoy your tombs!
Look there is something that I think some of you Vanguard supports are missing, and that is some people will simply refuse to buy SOE products. Justified or not there is a current and very real belief that SOE is a bad company with a bad track record that doesn't care for its customers. Again whether or not this is a justified reputation is not the issue. The "stink" exists and whether or not there is an actual cause for it doesn't matter at this point. You have people who feel that any SOE association is a bad thing and thus they will be less likley to give their money to any product that SOE stands to make money off of.
The simple fact is this: SOE involvement, for a lot of people, is a negative. Again whether that is a justified opinion or not really doesn't matter. You are not going to convince someone they shouldn't hate SOE no matter how much internet posting you do. On the flip side, I highly doubt that there are many people out there who are more inclinded to buy the game because they wish to support SOE. I think true SOE supports are few and far between these days, while the SOE haters are everywhere. Therefore right off the bat it is far to speculate that this merge could represent a negative for VSoH.
Again, and I can't say this enough, the justification for a person's hatred of SOE is not the issue. You are not going to change that. The only way SOE will win back some of its lost support is through high quality games and great customer service. Argument from die-hard Vanguard supports will do nothing but incite flame wars.
Imagine for a moment if your friend purchased a new car, say a Ford. From day one the car was nothing but trouble. It didn't run well, it was always breaking down, the people at Ford always gave him the run around when he complained, he feels he was cheated by the dealer, etc. Now you have been a Ford owner for years and have had several Ford cars/trucks and you feel they make a superior product. Do you honestly think you are going to convince your friend that his next purchase should be another Ford? No almost certainly not. Meanwhile it is probably true your friend probably just had the one bad experience out of ten thousand positives, but odds are your friend will not see it that way. He will probably buy chrysler or something else for his next car. Maybe he will eventually give Ford another try, but not while the memory of a "perceived" injustice is fresh in his mind. (Not an indorsement of any car or company, just a fictious mainstream example of a potential similar situation)
Now maybe VSoH will be a good game and SOE will provide excellent support and therefore they might win back a few fans. However as it stands right now SOE is not popular with a lot of MMO gamers.
I think it's pretty silly to believe SOE will have no influence over content. They are the publisher of the game. I think a lot of people are trying to downplay how much involvement a publisher has. That is certainly what the guys at Sigil are trying to do.
I know a lot of people haven't had any experience with SOE, and those are pretty much the only ones who don't have a problem with the publishing change.... because most of the people who have had to deal with SOE in the last few years are at least a little hesitant to get involved with them again. I guess if you haven't been lied to and cheated by a company personally, it's easier to believe they would do the right thing and keep their word... but the fact is that just isn't how SOE operates... and they will have a tremendous ability to put pressure on Sigil to make changes they feel are necessary once the game goes live.
Think about how much power and control they actually have after the game is running. They are in charge of all the physical production and distribution of the game, they manage all billing services for the game and most importantly, they own and operate the servers the game exists on. It really doesn't matter that a contract says all game decisions are made by Sigil, you have to admit that SOE will have enormous leverage to lean on Sigil if they disagree on what is best for the game, or SOE's primary concern, what would lead to more subscribers.
To keep pointing out that brad said Sigil has total control and therefore our concerns are completely unfounded is frankly a little niave... we live in the real world here, where businesses do sneaky, underhanded, unethical and borderline illegal things to each other every single day... all for a few bucks. Sony has clearly shown a propensity for that type of behavior, and Sigil have allowed Sony a position of influence in the future of this game.
Beyond that... you need understand that some of us don't care how little or how much involvement SOE will have in the future development of the game, but we have simply chosen not to do business with them at all. It's not really complicated, and at least in my case, not open for debate. I simply don't like the attitude they take toward their customers. That simple. for that reason, i won't subscribe to any of their games.
On the subject of why people are so upset with Vanguard going to SOE... Sigil is partially responsible for the uproar. I mean, look at the Gods and Heroes forums, you don't see a thousand posts saying SOE will ruin the game. So why is it happening here, and at the Vanguard forums? Because Sigil has positioned themselves as the anti-SOE. This was going to be Everquest done right. It's a bit of slap in the face for them to try and convince us now that partnering up with SOE is the best possible thing that could have happened. It's actually a little insulting to our intelligence that they expect us to believe it... of course, it seems to have worked on some people.
I would personally prefer the truth, or at least a more believable spin. Microsoft wasn't happy with the progress or direction of the game, they could just call it creative differences. So they found themselves looking for a new publisher, and SOE needed a new game as bad as Sigil need an infusion of cash... it was a marriage made in heaven... for everyone except the fans. I would feel better about the prospect of SOE making a little money off me playing Vanguard if Sigil were honest about the fact they are entering in to this agreement as begrudgingly as I would have to. I understand they can't just openly bad-mouth their new publisher, but they didn't have to insult us with the ridiculously transparent love-fest that they are presenting this deal as to the public.
-----Zero Punctuation Eve Online Review-----
I don't like this deal either. Seriously, I know SoE did a lot of things right, but they tend to "panic out", and do extremely stupid things, whenever they think others might gain even a single customer from them.Where I get that idea from? Hihi - EQ1, EQ2, SWG -- enough for me :PMeans that I really, really, really, really hope SoE has like 0 to say in the development.
Blame your fate!
I would like to address your points is a rational and reasoned response.
Your claim that SoE that has nothing to do with the game itself is correct if you mean the code that being developed currently. But would you agree that the code alone is not a game? you hav ethe servers (ran by SoE now), you have the customer support (now ran by SoE), you have the accounting and pricing structure (ran by SoE), you have the marketing and supply chains (now controlled by SoE), you have the player forums (from a customer support point of view are now ran by SoE). Add in that you will have the post release updates and "enhancements" based (I hope unlike other SoE related games) dev response to player feed back. that is a pot load of SoE involement to me.
The effects of the above are far reaching in how the game will preform. You can have the greatest designed code, but if placed on a poorly tuned server it is not woirth a darn, if you have the greatest game in the world, but if your marketing staff is already made a name for itself in a negative light (rootkits, killing live events in MxO, the mess that is/was SWG, etc) then people will naturally be nervious about your product.
As far as your bashing of Microsoft, Yes I would prefer them over SoE. You example of Windows is interesting as I would challenge you to cite an example of a stable and bug free Operating System in the hands of a end user running it in a non-controlled enviroment. For my part I have been a network admin in microsoft, unix, and mainframe enviroments for 15 years now. In that time, i can honestly say that all the various operating systems (both server and desktop) have had thier issues.
As for my personal dislike (not hate, sorry no game or company is really worth hate) is based on my first person experience in the games of EQ and SWG, of helping my family and friends clean off the rootkit from music products.
IF SoE was only going to help Sigil with the distro. of the game through a well developed channel of VARs, retail outlets and such then I would COMPLETELY agree with you last statement. but SoE is far more involved that does raise valid concerns (well for me) in a rational way.
I had been hoping to enjoy the game, and I might in time, but this pairing is going to make me pause, watch and see how the post launch of the game and how all the above cited concerns pan out.
What was Sigil thinking
By just putting SOE on anything is suicide these days (esp before the game is even released!). They are suppose to release this type of information when the game is out after 1 week.
sample..
We thank each and everyone of you for supporting VSoH and we got GREAT NEWS! SOE will be helping us publish this game here on after. Despite the differences and direction we want to take the game, MS decided to try other ventures. We wish the folks at MS the best of luck and we still thank the gracious hospitality they have given us to this point.
With SOE and their experience with mmo's we think this will benefit the fans and our product to release the BEST and efficient game on the market. (sound familiar)
Thank you all for supporting us.
Sigil/Soe
Anyways, do you know how many people would of been pissed if they did it this way? lol
No bitchers.
lol are you like refusing to read any of the actual statements regarding the soe fiasco? have you not read the 1000's of posts saying that soe didn't invest a dime?
kind of ironic you are insulting other people calling them "retarded" when obviously you don't even know what happened. yeah, if soe did invest money into vanguard i would agree with you....but they didn't, go read about it.
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
All I can say is NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
I was really hoping this was going to turn out to be a hoax but sadly it looks like it is not...
As for SOE's involvement...reguardless if they invested a penny, dime, a million, or nothing at all, if their name is on the project they will have input on it. Afterall it is their name on the line too...as bad as it allready is.
The mods have been good -- I wish I could retract that part of the title of this thread --- they have been good at letting us express our opinions. There are a lot of self righeous know it alls who flame you though and they do make it difficult to get a point across....they tend to derail threads by making you sound like an idiot if you dont like SOE or the direction of the game.