Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Great gear and 40 man raids
MikeMonger
Member Posts: 196
Ok. The WoW forums are full of people complaining about how "I don't want to raid but I want gear!!!!" I come here, and there's a whole lot of the same whining going on.
I am now going to give all you complainers the DEFINATIVE reason WHY the best gear comes from 40 man raids.
And it's not because raids are "hard"...I have yet to find an MMORPG that's actually challenging.
Why are games like Ultima Online, Everquest, Star Wars Galaxies, etc. still up and running and making a profit years after their initial release? Is it because of their uber graphics and innovative gameplay? No. Is it because they're incredibly challenging? Again no. The reason why these games still exist after all this time can be boiled down to one word:
COMMUNITY
In WoW, you aren't rewarded with uber gear from a 40 man raid because it was hard, or because it took a whole lot of time. You're rewarded that gear for participating in the commumity.
By making these encounters so difficult that only a group who knows how to work together well can accomplish it, Blizzard encourages you to make friends...friends that you'll keep paying $15 a month to keep talking to.
That's why you'll never get the best gear through any kind of soloing or small group questing. Minimal interaction with the community equals minimal reward. Because people who don't want to group or only want to do 5 man instances WILL quit the game sooner than later. Because WoW, like most MMORPG's, is at it's root a very, very boring game (think about it...imagine WoW exactly as it is now released as a single player game...how much would it suck?)
And there you have it. In the MMORPG world, community=longevity. Therefore, people are rewarded for participating in and help building up that community.
Comments
Only pvpers whine about gear.
Or the folks that like to follow the lore..
Or the folks that like to follow the lore..
Them too. Same thing, though. If you want to see some of the central places and figures of the lore, participate in the community....
By making the game a raid game, they convinced me quit WOW, not even consider the expansion, and to look long and hard before buying another Blizzard game ever again. Doesn't sound like their crafty plan succeeded, maybe if I didn't have messageboards, instant messengers, email, and a phone it could have worked.
If 'participate in the community' means 'play the game on a schedule, take part in some complex accounting scheme for loot, put up with a basement-dwelling raid leader ordering you around, and make sure not to interact with most of the server' then I'll gladly avoid ever participating in what you consider a community ever again in my life.
By making the game a raid game, they convinced me quit WOW, not even consider the expansion, and to look long and hard before buying another Blizzard game ever again. Doesn't sound like their crafty plan succeeded, maybe if I didn't have messageboards, instant messengers, email, and a phone it could have worked.
If 'participate in the community' means 'play the game on a schedule, take part in some complex accounting scheme for loot, put up with a basement-dwelling raid leader ordering you around, and make sure not to interact with most of the server' then I'll gladly avoid ever participating in what you consider a community ever again in my life.
So because you don´t like it their plan didn´t succeed? Hello, 5 million subscribers?
I agree with the topic starter. Even EQ has a thriving Base still becuase of ALL the guilds involved in raiding, that's what EQ is. These games are abotu making money from us consumers.
THe unique thing about The corporations running the gaming industry, specifically as far as the big MMROPG's go, is that the CEO's and Execs don't have on their "90 day glasses" . WHich means, they have short term number goals, but they don't overlook the longterm like the music industry. They want to be assured of their financial security for a long time after the game reaches it's peak subscriber status.
Beleive it or not, There are Thousands of raiding guilds, all with hundreds of members. Now while this isn't a super big percentage of the games population, it's sufficient to help preserve the game in it's later years.
Now frankly, All the people who are going to quit becuase there is no more content past what they've already beat on their way to 60 and post 60, well, they already kenw you were going to quit, becuase you obviously are an achiever type player who will not submit to the group mentality. Not that that is a bad thing, but this sort of mmorpg simply does not cater to a casual/ solo player friendly endgame.
When you have a lvl cap and you hit it. How do you progress without making godlike items? Team up.
I'd be pretty safe to say that over 50% of the people who raid don't get the philosophy of what raiding is abotu and never will, but do it for the items for their one character, bragging rights, and to be uber.
I for one do not kill raid bosses for items. I farm items to kill raid bosses, and that is the mentality that keeps players playing for such a ,long time. They don't see their fellow guildmates as tools to achieve personal and near sighted goals. We see the guild itself as the next step in the game. Building a guild, managing it's players, Farming items to make the guild as a whole stronger to beat new bosses and compete with other guilds. It's not a personal affair, but a community affair.
He said that their plan was "Blizzard encourages YOU to make friends...friends that YOU'll keep paying $15 a month to keep talking to.". If that was their plan, it failed miserably.
It's also simply absurd to think that whatever Blizzard does post-60 is related to them reaching 5 million subscribers, it's their name and early game that got them up there. By their own released numbers, most players of the game don't raid.
LOL, that's just funny. Raiding is 'about' what people do it for, if the majority of raiders do it for items, bragging rights, and to be uber, then that's what it is 'about', plain and simple.
So since your guild allegedly doesn't raid for the items and are good friends, not just tools in each other's eyes, are you capable of distributing your video game loot without any kind of complex accounting system? Somehow I doubt it, I'm willing to bet that you and your "friends" have a DKP system of some sort. If you need an accounting system to distribute your computer loot, you're a bunch of loot whores, and actual friends can manage to divide up pretty pixels without using a database of raid attendance.
LOL, that's just funny. Raiding is 'about' what people do it for, if the majority of raiders do it for items, bragging rights, and to be uber, then that's what it is 'about', plain and simple.
So since your guild allegedly doesn't raid for the items and are good friends, not just tools in each other's eyes, are you capable of distributing your video game loot without any kind of complex accounting system? Somehow I doubt it, I'm willing to bet that you and your "friends" have a DKP system of some sort. If you need an accounting system to distribute your computer loot, you're a bunch of loot whores, and actual friends can manage to divide up pretty pixels without using a database of raid attendance.
I like your "either/or" approach to my guilds distribution system. DKP is used to reward people who are there at the right times and other features that would ultimately give an approximate measure to how reliable/ useful they are to the guild as a whole. With 40 people involved, even if we are friends there still will be arguments, do you never argue with your friends over things?
As for what raiding is about. I meant it in the sense of what the developers meant it to be. But I suppose the solo achievers and farmers do appear in all guilds at times(unfortuneatly more often than not.) The developers count on guilds of people wanting to beat the Raid content, not just guilds of people looking to deck themselves in the highest epic gear and quit. It's the people who try and beat the hardest content to stick around to get ahead of other guilds at the expansion.
Lets not get hostile though and please don't personally attack me or my guild, that would be much apreciated.
-Luke
*edited for spellchecking
Either way its a wronged headed way to go about it by rewarding with gear. Age of Conan has some interesting ideas on this, dunno if they are good ideas but they are interesting with their "prestige classes" which only help out guilds.
Also raiding seems to encourage wierd cult-like uniformity of thinking.
What I find really interesting about this topic is that no one has done endgame PvE "raids" before that didn't require joining an uber guild.
Have raids been key to WoW's longevity? They've certainly been a part of it, but even Blizzard states that only about 25% of players ever access the level 60+ content (this was about 6 months ago), and most of that 25% of players do not join uber guilds to get the very best items in the game.
Most of the people I know from guilds I play in have played WoW and left it because they didn't like playing in uber guilds with set schedules for raiding and the drama and systems that are attached to uber loot. They just want to get into the game and have fun playing. . . they don't want to attend weekly events to earn guild points that might ultimately result in loot.
Would a game that is built on great PvP as it's endgame be more successful? Well, the popularity of DAoC's pre-Trials of Atlantis servers seem to indicate that these players prefer to play without PvE raids being a barrier to entry for PvP. Also, Guild Wars manages to be successful with a PvE system that merely works to unlock items that can then be used on PvP builds.
There are all kinds of different play-styles out there, and having 40-man raids really sucks for a lot of them. Those who don't enjoy uber guilds but are explorer types do not get to see all the game's content, and PvPers feel slighted because they have to do PvE raids to be on an even playing field with PvE players. They have valid complaints. . . if you don't like large scale PvE raids, then WoW really isn't the game for you unless you like making alts over and over. Unfortunately, the only other way to advance is to grind PvP over and over and over without fail in order to get the PvP loot, and then you have to continue the PvP grind to keep it.
My thinking is that WoW is most successful because of the other 75% of players that don't do their endgame, and they'd be even more successful if they made their endgame accessible to this 75% of players.
Acually, you don't lose your pvp loot if you lose rank anymore.
Those 5 millions subscribers enjoyed GROUPING and SOLOING and many are their EARNED FANBASE from Diablo, Warcraft, Starcraft and so on.
Now, check how many % of the players raid currently? 5%? Awesome, that is a LOT of players you think. How many peoples leave the game because of raiding? Most of those that quit? That beat 5% anyday!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
That means that hardly 5% are currently raiding at any given time. Which mean that 95% of what peoples find attractive in WoW is not raiding, but something else they are doing at the moment you take this lecture.
How many peoples quit WoW because of raiding? Far more than that little 5%!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
That means that hardly 5% are currently raiding at any given time. Which mean that 95% of what peoples find attractive in WoW is not raiding, but something else they are doing at the moment you take this lecture.
How many peoples quit WoW because of raiding? Far more than that little 5%!
Question...
If over 5% of the WoW userbase has quit because of raiding, than why do they keep opening new servers? Why are the queues to existing servers just getting longer and longer.
Just because you're fed up with it, doesn't mean that the game isn't still going strong.
And the point is, if you're mostly soloing and doing small group stuff (either PuG's or with one or two friends), than you're not part of the community. You exist at the fringes of the community.
You WILL quit sooner than later, because there's NOTHING to keep you there once the boring nature of the game mechanics finally catches up with you. Think about it. You solo your way to Tier 1. Great! Then what do you do? You...solo your way to Tier 2. Even better! Then what do you do? Yup. You guessed it...you solo your way to Tier 3. Then Tier 4, 5, 6.....10000.
And sooner than later, you're going to find clicking on an enemy, pressing auto-attack, and occasionally pressing one or two other buttons is mind numbingly dull.
However, the people who interact with guild mates....THEY'RE the ones that last. If they like their fellows, they keep coming back to chat, hang out, joke around, etc. If they hate their fellows, they keep coming back to stir up sh!t, play politics, get revenge, etc.
People don't hang out for long periods of time in MMORPG's for the gameplay. They hang out for the people.
I mean, UO is 10 years old and has 2D graphics. You think it's the gameplay that's keeping that game afloat? Everquest looks like ass, and almost all of it's mechanics have been implemented better in other games.
As for the wierd cult-like thing...heh. Things like that pop up on the internet. It's creepy.
And as for Age of Conan...we'll see how long it lasts, and what the endgame eventually looks like.
By making the game a raid game, they convinced me quit WOW, not even consider the expansion, and to look long and hard before buying another Blizzard game ever again. Doesn't sound like their crafty plan succeeded, maybe if I didn't have messageboards, instant messengers, email, and a phone it could have worked.
If 'participate in the community' means 'play the game on a schedule, take part in some complex accounting scheme for loot, put up with a basement-dwelling raid leader ordering you around, and make sure not to interact with most of the server' then I'll gladly avoid ever participating in what you consider a community ever again in my life.
From your post, I think I can safely assume that you're a first time MMORPG player.
Why? Because of your "play the game on a schedule" line. See, that's EXACTLY what Blizzard wants you to do. They (and all other MMORPG companies) want you to view their product less as a "game", and more as a "social event". Scheduling time for a raid should, in theory, become no different than scheduling a time to meet up with friends for a movie or a night out....
THAT'S what I mean by "community". And that's the attitude that's kept a lot of the old MMORPG's running for a long time.
If you never go beyond viewing WoW as a "game", than you're going to quit. Because games get boring after you've played them long enough.
Either your guild can distribute video game treasue without an accounting system or it can't, it's very much an either/or situation.
So have actually made an an accounting system to determine how USEFUL some of you are to each other?!?! You determine a numerical measurement for how much use some people are to you, yet seriously cll them friends in the same breath? Your definition of "friend" is definately not like mine. Really it sounds like you're running a company.
I have never engaged in a serious argument over the distribution of imaginary loot (serious argument meaning one or the other of us was actually mad or held bad feelings about it afterwards). I cannot imagine getting into such a tizzy over game items that I'd think that forming an accounting system for distributing pixillated purple pants was remotely a good idea. And if I did start to care enough about some purple pixel pants that I felt my friendship with someone was in danger, I'd ditch the game entirely since my toys are not allowed to run my life.
First off, it's about what it's about, not what it's "meant to be". Secondly, exactly how did you determine what the developers meant raiding to be? Sounds like you just declared that because it's what you want, or read some marketing speak that claimed it, I'm not sure how you determined developer motivations. That's certainly not what WOW's developers seem to think it's about, given the content of the profanity-filled screeds they wrote while EQ raiders, which seemed to be a weird mix of 'we're so uber and so much better than those schulbs not in our guild' and 'OMG Verant/SOE sucks, this content that I keep spending time and money to play is so horrible, I'm going to go have a cry or an aneurism'.
Fascinating that you went ftom people who"do it for the items for their one character, bragging rights, and to be uber" to people who look to get one set of gear and quit.
You brought your 'we need an accounting system to distribute video loot to our most useful friends but we really don't care about loot' guild into this, I'm certainly not going to refrain from commenting on it.
MikeMonger - You may want to reread the posts. 25% play endgame content at all, 5% play 40-man raids.
Blizzard hasn't (to my knowledge) released information on why people leave the game. I don't think they even have an exit poll.
Good lord, do you even think before you write this stuff? It's not at all like a "social event", it's like a job if anything. If I'm scheduling time to meet up with friends, I don't have to attend the exact same event with the exact same friends every 2-4 days of the week for 4-12 hours. We don't need to all show up at the same time, and also don't have to all leave at the same time.
And of course, I would never in my life considering attending a social event which used some kind of accounting system to determine who attends the most and who is 'most useful' to the other people in the social event. Or where some jerk who's claim to fame is running the accounting system gets to order people around. And the conversation needs to be better than "50 DKP MINUS" "GO OVER THERE" "HEAL" "DPS" for it to qualify as social.
Plus if I'm going to chat with people, I'd rather do it with a small enough group that we can all be involved instead of a couple of loudmouths dominating the channel, and do it with live conversation rather than over some teamspeak server. And really, why pay $15/month for a 'game' if all I really want is the chatroom? Why couldn't I just hop on the teamspeak server and make that the social event instead?
If I ever "went beyond" viewing a video game as a game, then I'd quit in horror immediately and seek professional psychiatric care. I think it's quite telling that people who like raiding go right out and tell you that you should not consider the game as 'merely' a game in order to reach the True Enjoyment. What that really boils down to is: If you like games, you won't like raiding "games".
And what about complete nonsense like this:
How, exactly, did you determine what every single MMORPG company thinks - can you even list every MMORPG company? Or did you just pull this 'fact' straight out of your ass like all of these other absolutes that I see declared as absolute fact in these kinds of discussions?
Good lord, do you even think before you write this stuff? It's not at all like a "social event", it's like a job if anything. If I'm scheduling time to meet up with friends, I don't have to attend the exact same event with the exact same friends every 2-4 days of the week for 4-12 hours. We don't need to all show up at the same time, and also don't have to all leave at the same time.
Yes, you're one of those close-minded non-raiders that wants raids to last 10,000 hours each. They don't. They last 4 hours, which can be spread over 2 or more days. You've already made your decision, don't want to know how things really are, and have based your idea that raids take umpteen billion hours based solely on your dislike of them, and not on actual facts.
And of course, I would never in my life considering attending a social event which used some kind of accounting system to determine who attends the most and who is 'most useful' to the other people in the social event. Or where some jerk who's claim to fame is running the accounting system gets to order people around. And the conversation needs to be better than "50 DKP MINUS" "GO OVER THERE" "HEAL" "DPS" for it to qualify as social.
If the only interaction going on is "go here", guess what? You're in the wrong guild.
Plus if I'm going to chat with people, I'd rather do it with a small enough group that we can all be involved instead of a couple of loudmouths dominating the channel, and do it with live conversation rather than over some teamspeak server. And really, why pay $15/month for a 'game' if all I really want is the chatroom? Why couldn't I just hop on the teamspeak server and make that the social event instead?
Guess what? You're not an MMORPG player than! You've completely ignored every single valid point I've bought up, and responded with some rant based on your own opinions. You're EXACTLY the kind of person I've already said Blizzard KNOWS is going to quit. Therefore, they're not going to bend over backward to accomidate your playstyle.
And before you say it...no, Blizzard is NOT making a blind attempt to keep EVERY SINGLE SUBSCRIBER. Blizzard is trying to keep a large chunk of their current subscriber base. That's how they'll ultimately measure they're success.
If I ever "went beyond" viewing a video game as a game, then I'd quit in horror immediately and seek professional psychiatric care. I think it's quite telling that people who like raiding go right out and tell you that you should not consider the game as 'merely' a game in order to reach the True Enjoyment. What that really boils down to is: If you like games, you won't like raiding "games".
Wow. You know what's funny? You assume I like raiding! Guess what? I DON'T! I like hanging out with people in my guild. There's a difference. What it REALLY boils down to is...if you're willing to view an MMORPG as a social outlet, you'll like raids.
And what about complete nonsense like this:
How, exactly, did you determine what every single MMORPG company thinks - can you even list every MMORPG company? Or did you just pull this 'fact' straight out of your ass like all of these other absolutes that I see declared as absolute fact in these kinds of discussions?
No, but I can read and understand an MMORPG business model, which is, with very few differences, universal among ALL MMORPG companies. I can also apply something called COMMON SENSE to the situation, something you can't do, since you've already decided that all raiders are basement dwellers.
What's funny about your post is, you belittle my "facts" and "absolutes" with NOTHING but strongly worded personal opinion. If you want to debate, than refute my main points:
1. Why are several MMORPG's still profitable after years, despite dated graphics and sub-par gameplay?
2. Why is Blizzard putting all high end loot in 40 man raids, if only a teeny-tiny minute fraction of the playerbase will ever see it? (according to you, it's just to piss you off)
3. Why has blizzard made it so that acquiring these rewards means you need to know how to actually work with these people, instead of merely blowing through it with a PuG?
4. What has Blizzard implemented that will keep you playing the game for a good long time? Is the standard "autoattack, occasional special attack" type of gameplay going to keep you challenged two or three years from now?
When you can answer those four questions with something other than "no! I hate it and I don't like it and I don't want to do it and it takes 40 hours a day and I have a life and people who do it live in their basements", come back to the thread.
Otherwise, you add absolutely NOTHING that hasn't been sprouted off by every single raid-hating WoW player already.
MikeMonger - You may want to reread the posts. 25% play endgame content at all, 5% play 40-man raids.
Blizzard hasn't (to my knowledge) released information on why people leave the game. I don't think they even have an exit poll.
One of the points I've been trying to make is, that small fraction makes up what will become the core of WoW long-term playerbase.
I'm basing my numbers on what people generally experience, not what's technically possible. Raids in WOW only take 4 hours or less if everyone shows up exactly at the start time, knows what they're doing, has done the encounters before, and doesn't spend much time just messing around chatting (like normally occurs in a social event). In actual practice, it takes longer, especially if you're actually experiencing new raid content and not just rerunning something completely on automatic. And guilds generally run more than one raid per week if they're advancing through content (you won't just run MC, then be done with it so start BWL or AQ) which makes the spreading over multiple nights a bit trickier.
I'll tell you what, point me to the websites of 5 guilds in WOW that can finish MC in 4 hours or less and are interested in acquiring or even retaining members who raid for a total of 4 hours per week spread out over 2 or more days. Surely if this is such a viable playstyle you can find way less than 1 guild per server where it would be possible to do. And when we come back to look at them in in a few months when the expansion comes out, how many of those guilds do you think will have made significant progress in their next raid instance (BWL or AQ)?
I've seen a lot of things like http://www.eternal-guild.com/?p=app "We raid Pacific Standard Time. We raid weekday evening's 5pm/pst - Midnight depending. We generally have a morning raid on Saturdays, no earlier than 9am. If you cannot raid with us during these times DO NOT APPLY." when looking at raiding guilds and not anything about 4 hours spread over 2 days. Those pages are actual facts; people actually doing raid content don't seem to agree with your belief that raids in WOW take only 4 hours and that not even in one day. Yet somehow, I'm the one making stuff up.
I've refuted your allegedly valid points, and when I've posted my opinions I've at least not tried to present things that I just made up as some kind of unadaulterated truth, very much unlike you. Are you going to take my raid time challenge and prove me wrong?
Oh, and speaking of ignoring valid points, what about all of the other points I made about raids being far more like a job than a social event? Especially the part about DKP systems, I think it's extremely telling that in all of your talk about raids and raiding you won't even touch on them or acknowledge that someome else so much as mentioned them. An accounting system to track attendance and how 'useful' people are doesn't really fit into what most people want from a social event.
Blizzard chooses to make content that doesn't appeal to the kind of person who doesn't like raids, so of course they know that the kind of person who doesn't like raids is going to quit. It's pretty much a tautology, if you don't make content that appeals to a group of people, they'll eventually leave.
Arguing 'Blizzard knows that you're going to quit because you don't like the content they're making, therefore they shouldn't make content that appeals to you' is kind of silly. If Blizzard instead made all of their new content for solo play only, then you could say the same thing for people who like group or raid content.
Interesting that your paragraph above says that you "DON'T" like raiding, and that you'll like raids if you're willing to view an MMORPG as a social outlet. So apparently either you're not willing to view an MMORPG as a social outlet, or you do like raids. Which is it - do you not view an MMORPG as a social outlet, or do you actually like raids? I guess assuming that you believe the things you choose to write is rather silly of me.
Of course, there are plenty of people who view MMORPGs primarily as a social outlet but don't like raids - there are whole guilds who came to WOW togehter, then left together once the game turned out to be all raiding. There are people who play games like EVE and UO primarily because of the friends they have, yet hate raiding. Your claim is just silly.
OK, where is this MMORPG business model that you read - I'd like to read a copy too? And how, exactly, did you determine that it is universal among ALL MMORPG companies, did you conduct a survey or what? Or did you just make it all up on the fly and are hoping that no one calls you on it?
I applied common sense to the fact that you claim to know information about the motivations and plans of ALL MMORPG companies do but can't even list ALL MMORPG companies, and determined that you just made it up.
It certainly isn't raids, since UO (one of the games you listed) isn't a raid game, and DAOC (a game which is still profitable after years) since their most popular servers are the ones with raid content removed entirely, and EVE (a game which is growing after years) barely even has PVE content. The fact that raiding is not the same thing as community, and that raiding is clearly not required for longevity blows away your whole chain of argument.
Now you're just making stuff up about me. Either quote the material where I claimed that blizzard was putting high end loot in 40 man raids just to piss me off, or admit that you made it up. Note carefully that me saying that Blizzard doing so pisses me off is very far from a claim that Blizzard is doing it just to piss me off.
And demanding that I say why Blizzard is doing something is just absurd; I don't claim to be telepathic, so I can't actually know what's going through their minds. Their root motivation is obviously 'to make money', but beyond that I don't have any way of actually knowing - but at the same time, neithehr do you, and your attempt at arguing what their motives must be falls flat because it's based on your false idea that raiding = community. This removes points 2 and 3 as even being sensible.
Blizzard has implemented nothing that will keep me playing the game for a good long time, I think I made that quite clear in my original post when I pointed out that the content you claimed they put in to keep me playing failed miserably at that goal.
I've refuted your allegedly valid points, and when I've posted my opinions I've at least not tried to present things that I just made up as some kind of unadaulterated truth, very much unlike you. Are you going to take my raid time challenge and prove me wrong?
You've refuted NOTHING. You've made assumptions about me, and dismissed my points without anything other than strongly worded opinion.
Oh, and speaking of ignoring valid points, what about all of the other points I made about raids being far more like a job than a social event?
I already said, if the raid feels like a job, you're raiding with the wrong people.
Especially the part about DKP systems, I think it's extremely telling that in all of your talk about raids and raiding you won't even touch on them or acknowledge that someome else so much as mentioned them.
Most decent guilds who aren't filled with people just using each other to achieve their own personal goals have limited or no DKP systems. Again, if you're getting tangled up in some kind of super complex accounting system, you're raiding with the wrong people.
An accounting system to track attendance and how 'useful' people are doesn't really fit into what most people want from a social event.
Blizzard chooses to make content that doesn't appeal to the kind of person who doesn't like raids,
No, Blizzard makes content that will foster cooperation and community. Raids do that. Solo and PUGable content do not.
so of course they know that the kind of person who doesn't like raids is going to quit.
No, the kind of person who has no desire to actually be SOCIAL is the kind of person who'll quit.
It's pretty much a tautology, if you don't make content that appeals to a group of people, they'll eventually leave.
See a previous post I made. WoW's mechanics are boring, just like every other MMORPG's mechanics (for now...some on the horizon look like they might actually spice things up a bit). Whether you're able to solo your way to your Tier 4 set or not, the formula of auto-attack/occasional special attack is going to bore you to tears.
Arguing 'Blizzard knows that you're going to quit because you don't like the content they're making, therefore they shouldn't make content that appeals to you' is kind of silly.
See above again. I never said that. I said Blizzard knows you're going to quit because you have no desire to participate with the community. Therefore, they're going to put a much, much lower emphasis on creating content for you. Nothing silly about that at all.
If Blizzard instead made all of their new content for solo play only, then you could say the same thing for people who like group or raid content.
If Blizzard made all their content for solo people only, than the game would be another Battlefield. You think people will still be playing Battlefield 5 years from now?
Interesting that your paragraph above says that you "DON'T" like raiding, and that you'll like raids if you're willing to view an MMORPG as a social outlet.
You either misunderstood the statement, or are purposefully taking it out of context. I don't raid for raiding's sake. I raid because my guild gets together, hangs out, and has fun. That was the intent of that statement. Kind of like I only enjoy playing ANY online game with people I actually like.
So apparently either you're not willing to view an MMORPG as a social outlet, or you do like raids.
Huh?
Which is it - do you not view an MMORPG as a social outlet, or do you actually like raids? I guess assuming that you believe the things you choose to write is rather silly of me.
Whatever.
Of course, there are plenty of people who view MMORPGs primarily as a social outlet but don't like raids
And my point was NEVER raiding=community. My point was raiding ENCOURAGES community. You're the one who decided to turn this into a raid bashing thread.
- there are whole guilds who came to WOW togehter, then left together once the game turned out to be all raiding.
Really? Name 5 (since that's the random number you threw out earlier).
There are people who play games like EVE and UO primarily because of the friends they have, yet hate raiding. Your claim is just silly.
Where did I say that raiding is the ultimate, greatest, bestest way to build community? My original point was, that phat loot from raiding was a reward from interacting with the community. Some people hate raids more than they like the people they meet in game. I never said that wasn't possible. Again, you're trying to turn this into some kind of absolutist anti-raid thread. You're not wasting time actually discussing the premis...that raiding does indeed build community. No, not for everyone, but for the bulk of people.
I applied common sense to the fact that you claim to know information about the motivations and plans of ALL MMORPG companies do but can't even list ALL MMORPG companies, and determined that you just made it up.
Ok then, if raids suck so bad, why do they exist? And try to answer without using the terms "basement dweller" or "people don't have a life".
It certainly isn't raids,
It isn't always raids...never said it was. I said it was COMMUNITY.
since UO (one of the games you listed) isn't a raid game,
UO, back in the day, required people to work together extensively to avoid being PK'ed. See? Encouraging people to work together...kind of like what raids do.
and DAOC (a game which is still profitable after years) since their most popular servers are the ones with raid content removed entirely,
DAoC is another game that requires large numbers of people working together for a common goal. Again, you assume that I said raids are the only thing that do this. I never even came close to making that assertation.
and EVE (a game which is growing after years) barely even has PVE content.
Lot's of PvP content, right? Which means people have to...band together and work closely for survival? Thanks! You're helping me prove my point that community=MMORPG longevity!
The fact that raiding is not the same thing as community,
Never said it was. I said raiding FOSTERS community. You've done EXACTLY NOTHING to even address that point.
and that raiding is clearly not required for longevity blows away your whole chain of argument.
Please quote where I said raiding is needed for longevity? I believe I said COMMUNITY is needed for longevity. You've helped me point that out very well, thank you.
Now you're just making stuff up about me. Either quote the material where I claimed that blizzard was putting high end loot in 40 man raids just to piss me off, or admit that you made it up.
I made it up. You never said they were doing it to just piss you off. The fact that you're trying to punch holes in my argument by putting WAY too much emphasis on an offhand comment is a bad sign for you.
Note carefully that me saying that Blizzard doing so pisses me off is very far from a claim that Blizzard is doing it just to piss me off.
Relax! Sheesh.
And demanding that I say why Blizzard is doing something is just absurd; I don't claim to be telepathic, so I can't actually know what's going through their minds.
So, in other words...you have absolutely NO idea why raids play such an important role in loot distribution. You have no thoughts on it yourself. But you know that this (promoting community) ISN'T the reason.
Word of advice...when you're trying to dismiss someone else's idea, it's best to have your own counter-idea.
Their root motivation is obviously 'to make money', but beyond that I don't have any way of actually knowing
"To make money"? But according to you, raiding drives off more people than it keeps. Wouldn't raids therefore hamstring the whole money-making plan?
- but at the same time, neithehr do you, and your attempt at arguing what their motives must be falls flat because it's based on your false idea that raiding = community. This removes points 2 and 3 as even being sensible.
No, I have a wonderful idea why. It's because MMORPG's thrive and find longevity through strong online communities. Raiding is a good way to help build that community.
Blizzard has implemented nothing that will keep me playing the game for a good long time,
EXACTLY! Because you don't have any desire to participate in the community, which, when it all boils down, is what ALL MMORPG's are all about. Which goes back to my argument that Blizzard isn't going to put a whole lot of effort into keeping people like you. And I'm not saying that in a condescending way...you don't want to make actual friends in an online game, and there's nothing wrong with that.
I think I made that quite clear in my original post when I pointed out that the content you claimed they put in to keep me playing failed miserably at that goal.
Actually, I beleive I said repeatedly that the content they put in is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED NOT to be geared towards player like yourself...the short-timers. They gave you a cool game to play for 1-59, which got you to cough up $15 a month for 3 or 4 months (or however long it was).
You keep going on the assumption that Blizzard is trying to keep it's ENTIRE playerbase. It isn't. It's only trying to keep a significant chunk of it. Because MMORPG's aren't measured in how well they do initially. If that were the case, SWG would be considered one of the monsters of the genre. MMORPG's are measured by RETENTION.
Retention is based almost entirely on...here's that word again...community.
I'm basing my numbers on what people generally experience, not what's technically possible.
As am I. My guild has gotten MC down to around 4 hours. How, through working together and learning stuff. Which is the INTENT of raiding.
Raids in WOW only take 4 hours or less if everyone shows up exactly at the start time, knows what they're doing, has done the encounters before, and doesn't spend much time just messing around chatting (like normally occurs in a social event).
Well, actually, there's a lot of chatting while we meet up and head out....
In actual practice, it takes longer, especially if you're actually experiencing new raid content and not just rerunning something completely on automatic.
DING! DING! DING! The raid structure ENCOURAGES consistantly working together with the same group of people over and over again. This builds relationships and friendships.
And guilds generally run more than one raid per week if they're advancing through content (you won't just run MC, then be done with it so start BWL or AQ) which makes the spreading over multiple nights a bit trickier.
We only run one. We don't have enough people to run two or more.
I'll tell you what, point me to the websites of 5 guilds in WOW that can finish MC in 4 hours or less and are interested in acquiring or even retaining members who raid for a total of 4 hours per week spread out over 2 or more days.
Here's a thought! Why not form your OWN guild, made up of your OWN friends! People who go into this with the mentality that they HAVE to join a "raiding" guild so they can get "uber" loot, instead of joining a guild of people they like and playing the game just for the sake of playing the game, are going to wind up, well, like you.
This goes back to the whole "social event" thing. If you view it as a chance to hang out with friends, you're going to have fun and hang out longer. If you view it as a "game", you're going to get all frustrated because your ONLY interest is in clawing your way to the top of the heap. And, because this is an MMORPG, that heap is always getting higher.
Surely if this is such a viable playstyle you can find way less than 1 guild per server where it would be possible to do. And when we come back to look at them in in a few months when the expansion comes out, how many of those guilds do you think will have made significant progress in their next raid instance (BWL or AQ)?
And here's the root of your problem. You're not interested in actually liking the people in your guild. You're only interested in USING the people in your guild to get you phat lewtz.
I've been playing MMORPG's a long time. I've NEVER, EVER "applied" to a guild.
I've seen a lot of things like http://www.eternal-guild.com/?p=app "We raid Pacific Standard Time. We raid weekday evening's 5pm/pst - Midnight depending. We generally have a morning raid on Saturdays, no earlier than 9am. If you cannot raid with us during these times DO NOT APPLY." when looking at raiding guilds and not anything about 4 hours spread over 2 days. Those pages are actual facts; people actually doing raid content don't seem to agree with your belief that raids in WOW take only 4 hours and that not even in one day. Yet somehow, I'm the one making stuff up.
See above. Maybe you should be trying to find people you WANT to play with, instead of trying to find people that you can use to accomplish your goals. Maybe that's why these people have such high demands of their applicants? Because they know you're only in it to use them get yourself epics?
FYI, my guild doesn't have an "application". A new person must be recommended by an existing member, and has to be someone we like playing with. And if we're low on a certain class? Someone goes out and levels an alt, and the ENTIRE guild helps him do it.
I've refuted your allegedly valid points, and when I've posted my opinions I've at least not tried to present things that I just made up as some kind of unadaulterated truth, very much unlike you. Are you going to take my raid time challenge and prove me wrong?
You've refuted NOTHING. You've made assumptions about me, and dismissed my points without anything other than strongly worded opinion.
Oh, and speaking of ignoring valid points, what about all of the other points I made about raids being far more like a job than a social event?
I already said, if the raid feels like a job, you're raiding with the wrong people.
Especially the part about DKP systems, I think it's extremely telling that in all of your talk about raids and raiding you won't even touch on them or acknowledge that someome else so much as mentioned them.
Most decent guilds who aren't filled with people just using each other to achieve their own personal goals have limited or no DKP systems. Again, if you're getting tangled up in some kind of super complex accounting system, you're raiding with the wrong people.
An accounting system to track attendance and how 'useful' people are doesn't really fit into what most people want from a social event.
Blizzard chooses to make content that doesn't appeal to the kind of person who doesn't like raids,
No, Blizzard makes content that will foster cooperation and community. Raids do that. Solo and PUGable content do not.
so of course they know that the kind of person who doesn't like raids is going to quit.
No, the kind of person who has no desire to actually be SOCIAL is the kind of person who'll quit.
It's pretty much a tautology, if you don't make content that appeals to a group of people, they'll eventually leave.
See a previous post I made. WoW's mechanics are boring, just like every other MMORPG's mechanics (for now...some on the horizon look like they might actually spice things up a bit). Whether you're able to solo your way to your Tier 4 set or not, the formula of auto-attack/occasional special attack is going to bore you to tears.
Arguing 'Blizzard knows that you're going to quit because you don't like the content they're making, therefore they shouldn't make content that appeals to you' is kind of silly.
See above again. I never said that. I said Blizzard knows you're going to quit because you have no desire to participate with the community. Therefore, they're going to put a much, much lower emphasis on creating content for you. Nothing silly about that at all.
If Blizzard instead made all of their new content for solo play only, then you could say the same thing for people who like group or raid content.
If Blizzard made all their content for solo people only, than the game would be another Battlefield. You think people will still be playing Battlefield 5 years from now?
Interesting that your paragraph above says that you "DON'T" like raiding, and that you'll like raids if you're willing to view an MMORPG as a social outlet.
You either misunderstood the statement, or are purposefully taking it out of context. I don't raid for raiding's sake. I raid because my guild gets together, hangs out, and has fun. That was the intent of that statement. Kind of like I only enjoy playing ANY online game with people I actually like.
So apparently either you're not willing to view an MMORPG as a social outlet, or you do like raids.
Huh?
Which is it - do you not view an MMORPG as a social outlet, or do you actually like raids? I guess assuming that you believe the things you choose to write is rather silly of me.
Whatever.
Of course, there are plenty of people who view MMORPGs primarily as a social outlet but don't like raids
And my point was NEVER raiding=community. My point was raiding ENCOURAGES community. You're the one who decided to turn this into a raid bashing thread.
- there are whole guilds who came to WOW togehter, then left together once the game turned out to be all raiding.
Really? Name 5 (since that's the random number you threw out earlier).
There are people who play games like EVE and UO primarily because of the friends they have, yet hate raiding. Your claim is just silly.
Where did I say that raiding is the ultimate, greatest, bestest way to build community? My original point was, that phat loot from raiding was a reward from interacting with the community. Some people hate raids more than they like the people they meet in game. I never said that wasn't possible. Again, you're trying to turn this into some kind of absolutist anti-raid thread. You're not wasting time actually discussing the premis...that raiding does indeed build community. No, not for everyone, but for the bulk of people.
I applied common sense to the fact that you claim to know information about the motivations and plans of ALL MMORPG companies do but can't even list ALL MMORPG companies, and determined that you just made it up.
Ok then, if raids suck so bad, why do they exist? And try to answer without using the terms "basement dweller" or "people don't have a life".
It certainly isn't raids,
It isn't always raids...never said it was. I said it was COMMUNITY.
since UO (one of the games you listed) isn't a raid game,
UO, back in the day, required people to work together extensively to avoid being PK'ed. See? Encouraging people to work together...kind of like what raids do.
and DAOC (a game which is still profitable after years) since their most popular servers are the ones with raid content removed entirely,
DAoC is another game that requires large numbers of people working together for a common goal. Again, you assume that I said raids are the only thing that do this. I never even came close to making that assertation.
and EVE (a game which is growing after years) barely even has PVE content.
Lot's of PvP content, right? Which means people have to...band together and work closely for survival? Thanks! You're helping me prove my point that community=MMORPG longevity!
The fact that raiding is not the same thing as community,
Never said it was. I said raiding FOSTERS community. You've done EXACTLY NOTHING to even address that point.
and that raiding is clearly not required for longevity blows away your whole chain of argument.
Please quote where I said raiding is needed for longevity? I believe I said COMMUNITY is needed for longevity. You've helped me point that out very well, thank you.
Now you're just making stuff up about me. Either quote the material where I claimed that blizzard was putting high end loot in 40 man raids just to piss me off, or admit that you made it up.
I made it up. You never said they were doing it to just piss you off. The fact that you're trying to punch holes in my argument by putting WAY too much emphasis on an offhand comment is a bad sign for you.
Note carefully that me saying that Blizzard doing so pisses me off is very far from a claim that Blizzard is doing it just to piss me off.
Relax! Sheesh.
And demanding that I say why Blizzard is doing something is just absurd; I don't claim to be telepathic, so I can't actually know what's going through their minds.
So, in other words...you have absolutely NO idea why raids play such an important role in loot distribution. You have no thoughts on it yourself. But you know that this (promoting community) ISN'T the reason.
Word of advice...when you're trying to dismiss someone else's idea, it's best to have your own counter-idea.
Their root motivation is obviously 'to make money', but beyond that I don't have any way of actually knowing
"To make money"? But according to you, raiding drives off more people than it keeps. Wouldn't raids therefore hamstring the whole money-making plan?
- but at the same time, neithehr do you, and your attempt at arguing what their motives must be falls flat because it's based on your false idea that raiding = community. This removes points 2 and 3 as even being sensible.
No, I have a wonderful idea why. It's because MMORPG's thrive and find longevity through strong online communities. Raiding is a good way to help build that community.
Blizzard has implemented nothing that will keep me playing the game for a good long time,
EXACTLY! Because you don't have any desire to participate in the community, which, when it all boils down, is what ALL MMORPG's are all about. Which goes back to my argument that Blizzard isn't going to put a whole lot of effort into keeping people like you. And I'm not saying that in a condescending way...you don't want to make actual friends in an online game, and there's nothing wrong with that.
I think I made that quite clear in my original post when I pointed out that the content you claimed they put in to keep me playing failed miserably at that goal.
Actually, I beleive I said repeatedly that the content they put in is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED NOT to be geared towards player like yourself...the short-timers. They gave you a cool game to play for 1-59, which got you to cough up $15 a month for 3 or 4 months (or however long it was).
You keep going on the assumption that Blizzard is trying to keep it's ENTIRE playerbase. It isn't. It's only trying to keep a significant chunk of it. Because MMORPG's aren't measured in how well they do initially. If that were the case, SWG would be considered one of the monsters of the genre. MMORPG's are measured by RETENTION.
Retention is based almost entirely on...here's that word again...community.
This isn't a thread about how cool raiding is. This is a thread about WHY raiding is. You don't like raiding. We get that. You've made that clear. But again, unless you're prepared to discuss why raiding DOESN'T help build community, than you're adding absolutely nothing to the discussion, and indeed, you're only sprouting off stuff that's been said in 1000 other "I hate raiding" threads.
Are there other ways to encourage community? Absolutely. Is raiding the BEST way to foster community...maybe, maybe not. But at it's root, raiding is no different than any of those other ways...they all encourage learning how to work together with large numbers of other people.