Originally posted by Painthane The OP is typical of the raider mentality. Oh for the love of.... The very idea that raid or die is the only type of endgame that anyone in theri right mind can expect from a MMO, And I said that...where exactly? the idea that acomplishing anything meaningful at endgame should take 39 strangers' help, /sighs If you're raiding with 39 strangers, you're in the wrong guild. I've said that repeatedly. the rediculous sence of entitlement (the laughable premise that raiders "deserve" the best loot" etc.) /shakes head Well, just because that's all WoW has to offer does not mean that there is nothing else to offer. Uh, with the current game mechanics in WoW, YES, that IS all there is to offer. You're right, the WoW forums are clogged with posts complaining about this issue, and it is dividing the WoW community. But there's good reason for that. See, WoW was designed as a casual-friendly game. "Casual friendly" is not the same thing a "casual". The problem with people who bring up this point is, that they refuse to see the distinction. It was marketed as a casual friendly game. Read the box. Not casual friendly for 59 levels, and then a mind numbing grindfest in instances with packs of lemming-like strangers for the rest of the game. Actually, WoW is one of the few MMORPG's that allow you to solo all the way up to the level cap, AND get some pretty good gear to boot. That sounds perfectly "casual friendly" to me. .... And to suggest that there is any sembalance to community, or any in-game mechanics in WoW that promotes community, espically raiding, is so rediculous that I almost fell off my chair laughing, and had to wipe away the tears of laughter before typing this post. Wow. You need to get out more. WoW has no community at all, and never has. Unless you count Chuck Norris jokes as being a community-builder. Well, since I belong to my guild's community and we have a blast, I'll just have to disagree.
Originally posted by MikeMonger You've also proven, in your own mind, that I'm a "raider" who belongs to a "raiding guild". Again...congratulations. Of course, I, my guildies, and anyone who's acually reading these posts know that simply isn't true...but you've convinced yourself.
Isn't this just delicious? Mike is complaing here that I called him a "raider" who belongs to a "raiding guild" rather than a "person who raids" who belongs to a "guild that raids" yet..
And, because it's so pathetically easy, you can just keep doing it forever. There's no point in replying to you anymore, because you'll take an "and", and turn it into 5 paragraphs of pointelss drivel. I reply to that, you'll use a "with" I write in the response, and turn that into 6 more paragraphs of pointless drivel. Etc., etc.
He whines about ME nitpicking words because after I got him to explain the distinction between "raider" and "person who raids" that so deeply offended him, I attempted to use the actual definition that he provided and said that anyone with any common sense already knew. Apparently it's some kind of horrible failing on my part to try to find out what nitpickey distinction between "raiding guild" and "guild that raids" is offending Mike and to try to use the words like he says I should.
I'm done with you. Your debate style is extremely hypocritical and more than a little dishonest. You attempt to use symantics and sentence structure, instead of logic and example, to prove your points, and that's always the callsign of the bad debater.
Mike's "symantics and sentence structure" whine is that I have repeatedly said that I do not want to raid and am not trying to get into a raid guild, and he somehow decided that that meant that I was claiming that I have never wanted to raid and have never tried to get into a raid guild. When I initially just pointed out to him that I had never made the 'never wanted to raid' claim, he elected to argue that I had, thus forcing me to point out that he was wrong. Apparently actually using English in what you say is poor debate tactic in Mike's mind.
Mike's debate style is to take a sentence that says one thing, like "I do not want to raid" and claim it says something different but somehwhat similar, like "I have never wanted to raid", then to engage in ad homenium arguement by accusing the other person of personal failings for something implied by the incorrect version of their statement, and then to accuse the person of at first lying, then playing symantics games when they point out that they said what they said and not the incorrect version.
The most absurd part is that Mike makes this complaint yet is unable to treat an example as, well, an example - way back I quoted a "guild that raids"'s home page as an example of the kind of times that raids tend to take. Rather than treat it as an example and address it on those grounds, he jumped to some complete sidetrack about how I was trying to join the guild just for loot, and later when I tried to point out that I only quoted them as an example, complained that I was obsessed with what it was an example of.
You want to continue discussing? Fine. Why do raids exist? Why do they NOT foster community. And since you won't answer that, I won't even waste my time reading (or responding to) any more of your posts.
This is Mike's excellent debate style, he'll ask a question that I've responded to several times over as though I've never even commented on it. His question isn't really what the debate is about, what would be far more relevant is for Mike to explain why he belives raid content fosters community BETTER than group content, something he keeps declaring to be true without the least justification. Or whether that community is worth fostering; on all occasions when I pointed out things that are commonly found in guilds-that-raid that I don't like, he would recommend that I form my own guild, thereby arguing that I shouldn't interact with most of the very community fostered by raiding.
Or any of half a dozen other points I've brought up and he desperately runs from, like why he is unable to distinguish "don't want to raid" from "don't want to participate in the community".
Originally posted by Painthane And to suggest that there is any sembalance to community, or any in-game mechanics in WoW that promotes community, espically raiding, is so rediculous that I almost fell off my chair laughing, and had to wipe away the tears of laughter before typing this post.
Mike will say he disagrees with this, but if you complain about some aspect of the 'community' that raiding fosters he will respond by saying that you're in/looking at the wrong guild. Apparently the majority of guilds-that-raid in WOW are the wrong guild to be in by his standards. When I brought this up to him before, his only response was to ask me which side of the debate I was on, lol.
"Why do raids exist? Why do they NOT foster community."
Ok, let me take a stab at this.
First a little background so as not to confuse anyone.
I played pretty much from release (dec 2004) to about 2 months ago. Had quit once before, and came back to give it another try.
I have been in 'a guild that raids' or 'raiding guilds' or whatever you might like to call it. No, they weren't all a bunch of retards, but yes they all did have dkp (which I don't like, but understand the reason for), and they all did have raiding schedules that required sign-ups.
What I did not like was the need to schedule my play-time. It is just a personal quirck of mine maybe, but I don't like commiting to people that I will 'be there' if I am not sure that I can. The demands of my family have to come first. If raids could be shorter, I might have tried, but since they were always in the 4 hour time area, I could not commit to them. On principal I would not reserve a spot that another guild member who could commit could occupy.
Now that you know a little about me, on to the topics.
"Why do raids exist?" - Can't say I have the answer to this except some MMORPG developer thought it was a good idea, would provide a challenge, and gives the players something to do while the devs were busy making other content. Other developers also thought it was a good idea and copied it.
There isn't a concensus on what size of group constitutes a 'raid' either. Wow has appear to pick 40 for most of its high end content, although UBRS is classified as a 'raid' (although it is not high-end), so in WOW terms its actually any group bigger than 5. To date in WOW though, it has been generally taken to mean 40.
"How do raids not foster community?"
It is generally hard to prove a negative so I will not attempt to 'prove' anything here. I can only talk about how it destroyed communities I was in in WOW.
The first guild I joined in WOW was on my first character that I started on a pve server - alliance side. It was a small guild, never had more than 20 or so members. Most of its members were in their 40's when I joined (Jan 2005).
We were small, but we were alot of fun. Each member had their own personality and we got to know each other fairly well.
Once the members started to hit 60 (I was the 2nd member to hit 60), thoughts began to turn to raiding.
The guild leader tried his best to get new members (as did we all), while constantly trying to convince the members that had hit 60 to hang in there. Unfortunately, competition for 60's was fierce, and one by one, members began leaving. In the end, our guild leader finally gave in and disbanded the guild. He did his best to place those of use who had stayed with him to the end in different guilds, but it was not the same. We were all split up (guilds were already sniping for members at this point and had defnite class requirements), our 'community', as small as it was, was destroyed. This was the first time I quit WOW.
I gave it a rest for a few months and then tried again. This time on a different server (a pvp one, horde side). I leveled up a Sham, and purposedly stayed away from guilds for a while.
When I neared 60, I joined one of the servers larger raiding guilds. After a few days of hearing the guild leader basically demean and push around his members I left the guild. I know a number of players that stayed only because they wanted to raid, but basically hated every minute of it. This was no community, it was a bunch of people (some of them very nice) who felt this was the only way they could get to the see any of the end-game.
I joined a larger guild, this one run by a terrific guild leader. This guilds only problem was that they had too many 60's (100+ at last count, with another 50 or so in the 50+ level range). Needless to say, when they started trying to organize raids, they had alot of problems. Drama ensued., the community again fragmented.
Since then I have joined other guilds with various characters with much the same end result. Once the guild got into a position to start raiding, either they were sniped by competing guilds, or ran into problems with the incoming members that were added in order to round out the roster.
I have yet to see a guild that get's into that 'sweet spot' of enough decent people to raid, but not too much, with little or no drama, AND casual enough to recognize my schedule. I'm sure they exist, and I take you at your word when you say yours is like that Mike, but I, like many other WOW players have had a much different experience.
The final straw for me was when I returned to my original server. Of the 30 or so people I had on my firiends list (which included a lot of my original guildies, along with random people I had met and played with along the way), only 1 remained. This was only 4 months after I had left. Only 1 of them had moved on to the end-game content. Of the rest? I can't tell you. Some quit I'm sure, some were probably playing alts, and the rest...who knows. I stayed for a about a month, and logged many hours getting my epic mount. I tried to find out about my old guildies, checking with the guilds that they had went to after we split, but nobody seemed to know.
So there you go Mike. I can't prove 'Why raids do not foster community', but I can tell you, from my personal experience, it has destroyed many communities, and I'm sure my story is not that unique.
On a side note, Blizz has already anounced that it will be releasing 'a ton' of solo and small group content in bc, along with smaller 10 man epic dungeons. Chilton stated quite clearly in his E3 interview that they wanted to make raids 'more accessible' by reducing their size. While this doesn't mean that we still wont have the same issues at 70 that we have at 60, I don't think that anyone can state that 'It has been Blizzards plan all along to only support raiders' and 'only at the 40 man level', but I guess we will just have to wait and see what this turns into in the expansion.
So there you go Mike. I can't prove 'Why raids do not foster community', but I can tell you, from my personal experience, it has destroyed many communities, and I'm sure my story is not that unique.
Maybe you're right. Maybe my guild is the exception, not the rule.
In your case, yes, definately....raids definately did everything BUT foster community. I still believe that that was their intended purpose, though.
I mean, it's hard to say. If you look at your typical raid thread, even if it starts off trying to seriously discuss the topic, one camp or the other starts sprouting off the same typical crap (this thread obviously being no exception). I've seen plenty of "I like raiding and here's why" posts. I've seen plenty of "I hate raiding and here's why" posts. But mostly what you see is:
"Non-raiders whine and want easy epics mailed straight to them."
OR
"Raiders are no life losers who don't want their e-peen threatened."
I dunno, maybe for every one of you (terrible experiences forced them from the game), there's one of me (great experiences keep me in the game). Maybe for every person who's had experiences like mine, there's five people who've had experiences like yours, or vice versa.
We definately won't find out on forums, though. People just seem to get so hyper worked up over it.
Originally posted by MikeMonger Question... If over 5% of the WoW userbase has quit because of raiding, than why do they keep opening new servers? Why are the queues to existing servers just getting longer and longer. Just because you're fed up with it, doesn't mean that the game isn't still going strong.
The fact they lose more peoples with raiding then the amount they win with it doesn't mean the game is a failure or not going strong, it just mean that it could have done better and it isn't, because of all the peoples it lose.
New players joins for the GAME, not for raiding.
Raiders would majoritaly stay in a game that offer a decent grouping-endgame and an independant raiding system that has no impact on grouping. And even if they wouldn't, they are only a tiny minority...screwing the majority and the happiness of the majority for a minority is not worth it.
WoW success has NOTHING to do with raiding, even Blizzard says that 25% of the players play the post-60 game...there are grouping events, there are PvP events and there are Raiding events past 60...and NOW, currently, as we speak, there is NEVER 5% of the players raiding, thereby raiding is harming a LOT more than helping the game. Not all this 25% is CURRENTLY playing the post-60 aspect of the game. What matter is the CURRENTLY played aspect of the game. Raiding fails to break 5% at ANY given time.
The fact WoW is successful despite raiding is only showing how strong and nice other aspects are, despite angering fans and destroying their fanbase in a very nasty way, the game is still doing great. The game is not doing great because of raiding, since there are not even 5% of the players raiding at ANY given moment, it is doing great for OTHER aspects. Raiding is killing Blizzard in the long term, they are ruining their fanbase beyond anything they are conceiving.
I am pretty confident that GROUPING break 50% of the players base at MANY given moments in a day, SOLOING must be breaking the 50% on rare occasion as well. Raiding, not even 5% at ANY given moment, and you are screwing the majority for that? A mistake.
If an aspect is not played a lot, you have to consider it impact on the other aspect of the game. Raiding has MANY negative impacts on every other aspect of the game, from soloing, to grouping, to PvPing, to tradeskilling. Raiding in the current form I mean. If raiding earned stuff would have no impact and be useless in grouping, it would lose all negative aspect is has against grouping but remain whatever minority benefit it has, maybe to a lesser extand, but a respectable company will not mind losing players who enjoy to ABUSE others, because raiding in this actual form is ABUSING the rest of the game, and all the peoples defending it are entertainment-abusers. Nothing less. But nothing new to the Uber-Guilds folks they hire.
The majority of players left the PvP driven games/zone, even WoW can understand that to some extand. They should be able to understand that the same logic, players feeling abused by some gameplay, want a relief from that gameplay. And Raiding is abusing every other gameplay just like any gameplay receiving all benefits. See, if I would give the best items in SOLO only, it would harm the rest of the game. If I give the best items only in raiding/PvP, it harm the rest of the game. Your average player is not dreaming about succeeding in PvP/Raiding, but in succeeding Soloing/Grouping, thereby all the best rewards should be in those systems. Quite simple, you want the MASS to dream and possibly attain it (no matter how long and far such a goal would be for a casual, it is possible in grouping/soloing).
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
The fact they lose more peoples with raiding then the amount they win with it doesn't mean the game is a failure or not going strong, it just mean that it could have done better and it isn't, because of all the peoples it lose.
New players joins for the GAME, not for raiding.
Raiders would majoritaly stay in a game that offer a decent grouping-endgame and an independant raiding system that has no impact on grouping. And even if they wouldn't, they are only a tiny minority...screwing the majority and the happiness of the majority for a minority is not worth it.
WoW success has NOTHING to do with raiding, even Blizzard says that 25% of the players play the post-60 game...there are grouping events, there are PvP events and there are Raiding events past 60...and NOW, currently, as we speak, there is NEVER 5% of the players raiding, thereby raiding is harming a LOT more than helping the game. Not all this 25% is CURRENTLY playing the post-60 aspect of the game. What matter is the CURRENTLY played aspect of the game. Raiding fails to break 5% at ANY given time.
The fact WoW is successful despite raiding is only showing how strong and nice other aspects are, despite angering fans and destroying their fanbase in a very nasty way, the game is still doing great. The game is not doing great because of raiding, since there are not even 5% of the players raiding at ANY given moment, it is doing great for OTHER aspects. Raiding is killing Blizzard in the long term, they are ruining their fanbase beyond anything they are conceiving. I am pretty confident that GROUPING break 50% of the players base at MANY given moments in a day, SOLOING must be breaking the 50% on rare occasion as well. Raiding, not even 5% at ANY given moment, and you are screwing the majority for that? A mistake.
If an aspect is not played a lot, you have to consider it impact on the other aspect of the game. Raiding has MANY negative impacts on every other aspect of the game, from soloing, to grouping, to PvPing, to tradeskilling. Raiding in the current form I mean. If raiding earned stuff would have no impact and be useless in grouping, it would lose all negative aspect is has against grouping but remain whatever minority benefit it has, maybe to a lesser extand, but a respectable company will not mind losing players who enjoy to ABUSE others, because raiding in this actual form is ABUSING the rest of the game, and all the peoples defending it are entertainment-abusers. Nothing less. But nothing new to the Uber-Guilds folks they hire.
Eh, I think grouping is the primary reason why peope play WoW, and MMORPG's in general. I mean, really...WoW gameplay is far from interactive...autoattack, button 1,2,1,2,1,2. I think the hard core soloer would get bored very, very quickly.
Originally posted by MikeMonger Originally posted by HcCas
So there you go Mike. I can't prove 'Why raids do not foster community', but I can tell you, from my personal experience, it has destroyed many communities, and I'm sure my story is not that unique.
Maybe you're right. Maybe my guild is the exception, not the rule.
In your case, yes, definately....raids definately did everything BUT foster community. I still believe that that was their intended purpose, though.
I mean, it's hard to say. If you look at your typical raid thread, even if it starts off trying to seriously discuss the topic, one camp or the other starts sprouting off the same typical crap (this thread obviously being no exception). I've seen plenty of "I like raiding and here's why" posts. I've seen plenty of "I hate raiding and here's why" posts. But mostly what you see is:
"Non-raiders whine and want easy epics mailed straight to them."
OR
"Raiders are no life losers who don't want their e-peen threatened."
I dunno, maybe for every one of you (terrible experiences forced them from the game), there's one of me (great experiences keep me in the game). Maybe for every person who's had experiences like mine, there's five people who've had experiences like yours, or vice versa.
We definately won't find out on forums, though. People just seem to get so hyper worked up over it.
actually, this person who is extremely dissatisfied with raiding would just like high level content. maybe real pvp, not this BG-grind garbage. outposts in every zone which any faction can take over and hold? there's an incredibly easy and obvious outdoor pvp theme to run with. oh wait, EQ didn't do it, so copycats won't think of it. too bad for them.
maybe a player-run economy. ever see koreans on pre-cu swg servers? the game where the best equipment is player made? where you have item decay? oh wait, you don't have third-world farmers spamming in game worlds such as those; BECAUSE, they have no place. yet, in wow's non-existent player-economy, farmers thrive. so here is something else raiding brings to us. raiding = best items from drops, not player-crafted.
i've watched/participated in a number of raiding guilds in a number of games. kids, jobless, and yeah people that put no priority on anything in their lives are the individuals which comprise the core of these guilds. the ones that never miss a raid, ever. the ones that get decked out first because they keep a bazillion points. whatever community exists there, is not one that leaves a good taste in your mouth, makes ya feel kind of dirty (and not the good kind of dirty).
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Eh, I think grouping is the primary reason why peope play WoW, and MMORPG's in general. I mean, really...WoW gameplay is far from interactive...autoattack, button 1,2,1,2,1,2. I think the hard core soloer would get bored very, very quickly.
Grouping is the primary reason.
Soloing is the secondary reason.
PvPing is the third reason.
Tradeskill is the fourth reason.
Raiding is the fifth reason.
I might have done a mistake between PvP and tradeskills, I am unsure honestly and neither does I really care. There are FAR more players who want to SOLO in PvE than you have Raiders + PvPers + Tradeskillers. The only aspect that outmatch soloing is grouping and it is not an easy outmatching. Soloing should thereby be the SECOND most important aspect in a MMO, just after grouping.
The 'hardcore' soloers...you know, if a group get to bored of a gameplay, they are not the hardcore of that gameplay, they may be hardcore soloers in general and some other games, but if they are bored of Solo in WoW but other players are not, then the other players will take the 'hardcore role'.
See, there was hardcore players before raiding exist in EQ. They left upon seeing raiding. After that the game starts considering the uber guild like hardcores, yet, those players where noobs compare to the real hardcore players. All concepts are relative. SoE choose not to cater to the first minority of hardcore and yet, they choose to cater to the second. The first minority at least allow the casuals to dream of succeeding, in 3 years maybe, but still succeeding. I question the wisdom of catering to raiding, since casuals aren't even allowed to dream anymore.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Eh, I think grouping is the primary reason why peope play WoW, and MMORPG's in general. I mean, really...WoW gameplay is far from interactive...autoattack, button 1,2,1,2,1,2. I think the hard core soloer would get bored very, very quickly.
i keep reading people post things like this. in most guilds i've joined, the majority of players group when they're forced to. they group because it's a mission/quest that you can't single/duo/trio and you HAVE to have more. a lot of folks will group with the couple of people they bought the game to play with.
now, in this, i'm not including blizznet types, jobless folks, or the ones that do nothing but play games.
but for those of us who make games THAT -- games; i don't see people grouping unless they're forced to. a lot of people play TO solo, or to hang with a couple of good friends.
from just a traditional standpoint... other than the Odyssey, where in myth, legend, or books do we see the huge raiding groups? even in something like dragonlance, how often were all of the eight-ish key heroes in one spot and fighting the same battle?
i'm not really seeing any examples. i see single heroes standing out. i see heroes with a lesser hero or two (whom we might label as sidekicks). why would the eq-clones think that after a couple of thousand years+ of literature and enjoyment that all of a sudden people playing a heroic-character, just want to be a face in the crowd? that's what a raid does. you're no longer standing out in the crowd, you're just a part of a crowd.
you're not the uber hero of fate, come to save/destroy the world. you're just some peon, forced to fight endless hordes of the same easy kills, over and over again, in order to feed your own greed to have the same gear that all your friends have.
the more i think about it; the more a lot of these MMOs just totally and completely disappoint me. the uncreativeness, lack of originality, and just laziness of all those devs is just appalling.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
actually, this person who is extremely dissatisfied with raiding would just like high level content. maybe real pvp, not this BG-grind garbage. You're preaching to the choir son. I never said raiding was the best way. I said it's currently the only mechanic currently in the game. outposts in every zone which any faction can take over and hold? there's an incredibly easy and obvious outdoor pvp theme to run with. oh wait, EQ didn't do it, so copycats won't think of it. too bad for them. Eh, I don't begrudge Blizzard for copying certain aspects of EQ. I mean, back in the day, it was wildly successful, and still has a strong following. And WoW....6 million subscribers. But as for your outpost idea, I like it.
maybe a player-run economy. ever see koreans on pre-cu swg servers? the game where the best equipment is player made? where you have item decay? That would be sweet. The problem is, you'd have to greatly change the root game mechanics. SWG accomidated the pure crafter better than the current WoW ever could. oh wait, you don't have third-world farmers spamming in game worlds such as those; BECAUSE, they have no place. yet, in wow's non-existent player-economy, farmers thrive. so here is something else raiding brings to us. raiding = best items from drops, not player-crafted.
Oh, you forget. There were PLENTY of credit farmers in SWG.
i've watched/participated in a number of raiding guilds in a number of games. kids, jobless, and yeah people that put no priority on anything in their lives are the individuals which comprise the core of these guilds. See, this just sounds like anti-raid prejudice. The whole "no-life loser" thing. the ones that never miss a raid, ever. the ones that get decked out first because they keep a bazillion points. whatever community exists there, is not one that leaves a good taste in your mouth, makes ya feel kind of dirty (and not the good kind of dirty). I've never played in one of these guilds, so I can't agree or disagree with you. It just sounds like rabid generalization, though....
Originally posted by damian7 Originally posted by MikeMonger
Eh, I think grouping is the primary reason why peope play WoW, and MMORPG's in general. I mean, really...WoW gameplay is far from interactive...autoattack, button 1,2,1,2,1,2. I think the hard core soloer would get bored very, very quickly.
i keep reading people post things like this. in most guilds i've joined, the majority of players group when they're forced to. they group because it's a mission/quest that you can't single/duo/trio and you HAVE to have more. a lot of folks will group with the couple of people they bought the game to play with.
now, in this, i'm not including blizznet types, jobless folks, or the ones that do nothing but play games.
but for those of us who make games THAT -- games; i don't see people grouping unless they're forced to. a lot of people play TO solo, or to hang with a couple of good friends.
from just a traditional standpoint... other than the Odyssey, where in myth, legend, or books do we see the huge raiding groups? even in something like dragonlance, how often were all of the eight-ish key heroes in one spot and fighting the same battle?
i'm not really seeing any examples. i see single heroes standing out. i see heroes with a lesser hero or two (whom we might label as sidekicks). why would the eq-clones think that after a couple of thousand years+ of literature and enjoyment that all of a sudden people playing a heroic-character, just want to be a face in the crowd? that's what a raid does. you're no longer standing out in the crowd, you're just a part of a crowd.
you're not the uber hero of fate, come to save/destroy the world. you're just some peon, forced to fight endless hordes of the same easy kills, over and over again, in order to feed your own greed to have the same gear that all your friends have.
the more i think about it; the more a lot of these MMOs just totally and completely disappoint me. the uncreativeness, lack of originality, and just laziness of all those devs is just appalling.
Which is why we pray every night that you'll become enlighten by the suckiness of MMORPGs and go back to playing console single player rpgs.
Raiding is the fifth reason. This is an extermely arbitrary list. If Tradeskill were important, WoW wouldn't be as successful as it is, because, well, WoW's tradeskill system is practically non-existant. PvP'ing...again, if that were the case, than games like Lineage II with it's FFA system would be doing much better than they are. And if soloing were the second reason...well, that comes back to the point of why would you spend $15 a month for 2 or 3 years to play essentially a single player game?
I might have done a mistake between PvP and tradeskills, I am unsure honestly and neither does I really care. There are FAR more players who want to SOLO in PvE than you have Raiders + PvPers + Tradeskillers. Now now. Most of the time, when people are soloing, they're just grinding. Which I find to be one of the more tedious aspects of MMORPG's. The only aspect that outmatch soloing is grouping and it is not an easy outmatching. Soloing should thereby be the SECOND most important aspect in a MMO, just after grouping. Maybe for you, but I doubt that's the case for most people.
The 'hardcore' soloers...you know, if a group get to bored of a gameplay, they are not the hardcore of that gameplay, they may be hardcore soloers in general and some other games, but if they are bored of Solo in WoW but other players are not, then the other players will take the 'hardcore role'.
See, there was hardcore players before raiding exist in EQ. They left upon seeing raiding. After that the game starts considering the uber guild like hardcores, yet, those players where noobs compare to the real hardcore players. All concepts are relative. SoE choose not to cater to the first minority of hardcore and yet, they choose to cater to the second. The first minority at least allow the casuals to dream of succeeding, in 3 years maybe, but still succeeding. I question the wisdom of catering to raiding, since casuals aren't even allowed to dream anymore. See, what's a "hard core" soloer, though? Someone who does a lot of grinding? Because really, there's not a whole lot you can accomplish solo.
Originally posted by MikeMonger Originally posted by damian7
actually, this person who is extremely dissatisfied with raiding would just like high level content. maybe real pvp, not this BG-grind garbage. You're preaching to the choir son. I never said raiding was the best way. I said it's currently the only mechanic currently in the game. outposts in every zone which any faction can take over and hold? there's an incredibly easy and obvious outdoor pvp theme to run with. oh wait, EQ didn't do it, so copycats won't think of it. too bad for them. Eh, I don't begrudge Blizzard for copying certain aspects of EQ. I mean, back in the day, it was wildly successful, and still has a strong following. And WoW....6 million subscribers. But as for your outpost idea, I like it.
maybe a player-run economy. ever see koreans on pre-cu swg servers? the game where the best equipment is player made? where you have item decay? That would be sweet. The problem is, you'd have to greatly change the root game mechanics. SWG accomidated the pure crafter better than the current WoW ever could. oh wait, you don't have third-world farmers spamming in game worlds such as those; BECAUSE, they have no place. yet, in wow's non-existent player-economy, farmers thrive. so here is something else raiding brings to us. raiding = best items from drops, not player-crafted.
Oh, you forget. There were PLENTY of credit farmers in SWG.
i've watched/participated in a number of raiding guilds in a number of games. kids, jobless, and yeah people that put no priority on anything in their lives are the individuals which comprise the core of these guilds. See, this just sounds like anti-raid prejudice. The whole "no-life loser" thing. the ones that never miss a raid, ever. the ones that get decked out first because they keep a bazillion points. whatever community exists there, is not one that leaves a good taste in your mouth, makes ya feel kind of dirty (and not the good kind of dirty). I've never played in one of these guilds, so I can't agree or disagree with you. It just sounds like rabid generalization, though....
Trust me, you don't want the decay item loss. We had that one of the server in NWN, God, most of the people on the server spent more time mining and forging then adventuring. When we did go to adventure, we went to mine. To make matter worse, the DM threw in a rust monster.
And let's not talk about how the DM put a NPC rogue in the game who robbed you of your gold, making it hard to pay for ingredients for your forging. The game drove you insane because you only went to dungeons to reforge soon to be decaying items.
Also in NWN, we had pvp/pve server where you can take over terrority, it got ugly and lot of people left because the evil side took over the good side easily. Now replace the evil side with Horde and the Good side with alliance. What made matters worse is that people on the good side would go over to the bad side making fighting lopsided. In order for this idea to work, Blizzard would have to limit the number of players on each side, which wouldn't work as you would be forcing players to play characters or class they want to play.
i keep reading people post things like this. in most guilds i've joined, the majority of players group when they're forced to. they group because it's a mission/quest that you can't single/duo/trio and you HAVE to have more. a lot of folks will group with the couple of people they bought the game to play with.keep reading people post things like this. in most guilds i've joined, the majority of players group when they're forced to. they group because it's a mission/quest that you can't single/duo/trio and you HAVE to have more. a lot of folks will group with the couple of people they bought the game to play with. Just my opinion, but I would never join a guild with people I DIDN'T want to group with. I mean, what's the point of joining a guild then? Seriously?
now, in this, i'm not including blizznet types, jobless folks, or the ones that do nothing but play games.
but for those of us who make games THAT -- games; i don't see people grouping unless they're forced to. a lot of people play TO solo, or to hang with a couple of good friends. I said it in a previous post...there's only so much you can accomlish solo. MMORPG's generally provide better rewards from group activities. And unlike WoW, many, many MMORPG's REQUIRE grouping to hit the level cap.
from just a traditional standpoint... other than the Odyssey, where in myth, legend, or books do we see the huge raiding groups? Heh. Where in myth, legend, or fantasy do we see someone dying, spirit running to the graveyard, rezzing, and running back to the instance with just a little armor decay? Games take liberties with these things. even in something like dragonlance, how often were all of the eight-ish key heroes in one spot and fighting the same battle?
i'm not really seeing any examples. i see single heroes standing out. i see heroes with a lesser hero or two (whom we might label as sidekicks). why would the eq-clones think that after a couple of thousand years+ of literature and enjoyment that all of a sudden people playing a heroic-character, just want to be a face in the crowd? that's what a raid does. you're no longer standing out in the crowd, you're just a part of a crowd. Well...because 100's of thousands of people are playing the games....that's why.
you're not the uber hero of fate, come to save/destroy the world. you're just some peon, forced to fight endless hordes of the same easy kills, over and over again, in order to feed your own greed to have the same gear that all your friends have. See, the thing is, the ONLY game you're going to get that from is a single player game.
the more i think about it; the more a lot of these MMOs just totally and completely disappoint me. the uncreativeness, lack of originality, and just laziness of all those devs is just appalling.
Oh, they DO lack originality. Very few of the ones that show real innovation actually succeed. But that says more about the gaming audience than it says about the MMORPG companies.
Originally posted by MikeMonger And if soloing were the second reason...well, that comes back to the point of why would you spend $15 a month for 2 or 3 years to play essentially a single player game? See, what's a "hard core" soloer, though? Someone who does a lot of grinding? Because really, there's not a whole lot you can accomplish solo.
Exactly, there is no point in being a solo and it makes no sense to pay 50 dollars + 15 a month for a single play game when you can buy a game for 50 dollars with no monthly fee or 5 dollars to rent it.
The reason he wants these types of changes for MMORPGs is because the single player console games have been a let down of the late. Many of them are too short and you can't add outside content to the game to make the world more vast or cater to your needs.
I have absolutley no problem with what you said.Its true the more dedicated you are in a mmo the more rewarding it is.But if i remember correctly the devs stated at time of release or before that WoW would NOT be raid oriented.
Personally i feel like your saying that if your not raiding in an instance that we may as well not even play the game.I wont ever participate in a raid because i dont have 4 to 6 hours of time to waste on a game period.
1 way for players like me to get the "uber armor" would be if another player dropped it if i killed him in PvP.A rare occurence but its possible.
(shrugs)
Did you ever think that maybe players play an mmo for content rather than community?single player games dont have content updates like mmo's.
Want to ENJOY an mmo?
Dont start a guild and dont be a leader or volunteer to be coleader or captain.
Originally posted by Puoltry I have absolutley no problem with what you said.Its true the more dedicated you are in a mmo the more rewarding it is.But if i remember correctly the devs stated at time of release or before that WoW would NOT be raid oriented.
Personally i feel like your saying that if your not raiding in an instance that we may as well not even play the game.I wont ever participate in a raid because i dont have 4 to 6 hours of time to waste on a game period.
1 way for players like me to get the "uber armor" would be if another player dropped it if i killed him in PvP.A rare occurence but its possible.
(shrugs)
Did you ever think that maybe players play an mmo for content rather than community?single player games dont have content updates like mmo's.
you're right, puoltry. the devs stated numerous times that this wouldn't be an EQ clone. they forgot to mention their definition.
they instanced the raids. therefore, since it's an instance, it's not an EQ clone <<< this is something of what their definition must be.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by MikeMonger Originally posted by damian7
i keep reading people post things like this. in most guilds i've joined, the majority of players group when they're forced to. they group because it's a mission/quest that you can't single/duo/trio and you HAVE to have more. a lot of folks will group with the couple of people they bought the game to play with.keep reading people post things like this. in most guilds i've joined, the majority of players group when they're forced to. they group because it's a mission/quest that you can't single/duo/trio and you HAVE to have more. a lot of folks will group with the couple of people they bought the game to play with.
Just my opinion, but I would never join a guild with people I DIDN'T want to group with. I mean, what's the point of joining a guild then? Seriously?
show of hands, how many people are in guilds to have folks to talk to, make some friends, socialize in general and to have dependable help (who won't try to snarf all the good items when you need the help)?
now, in this, i'm not including blizznet types, jobless folks, or the ones that do nothing but play games.
but for those of us who make games THAT -- games; i don't see people grouping unless they're forced to. a lot of people play TO solo, or to hang with a couple of good friends. I said it in a previous post...there's only so much you can accomlish solo. MMORPG's generally provide better rewards from group activities. And unlike WoW, many, many MMORPG's REQUIRE grouping to hit the level cap.
none come to mind. COx, UO, Horizons, Ryzom, Eve, and if you dodge folks trying to kill you i think even Shadowbane -- you can max level solo all.
from just a traditional standpoint... other than the Odyssey, where in myth, legend, or books do we see the huge raiding groups? Heh. Where in myth, legend, or fantasy do we see someone dying, spirit running to the graveyard, rezzing, and running back to the instance with just a little armor decay? Games take liberties with these things.
apples and oranges. but, by your analogy, since you CAN come back to life in the games, you have less reason to have a wingman/henchman/sidekick with you to help keep you alive.
even in something like dragonlance, how often were all of the eight-ish key heroes in one spot and fighting the same battle?
i'm not really seeing any examples. i see single heroes standing out. i see heroes with a lesser hero or two (whom we might label as sidekicks). why would the eq-clones think that after a couple of thousand years+ of literature and enjoyment that all of a sudden people playing a heroic-character, just want to be a face in the crowd? that's what a raid does. you're no longer standing out in the crowd, you're just a part of a crowd. Well...because 100's of thousands of people are playing the games....that's why.
what are you talking about? you raid with 100s of thousands of people? you raid with 19-39 others, hence my statement of " why would the eq-clones think that after a couple of thousand years+ of literature and enjoyment that all of a sudden people playing a heroic-character, just want to be a face in the crowd? that's what a raid does. you're no longer standing out in the crowd, you're just a part of a crowd. " you're not one of a small handful who just accomplished something mighty.
you're not the uber hero of fate, come to save/destroy the world. you're just some peon, forced to fight endless hordes of the same easy kills, over and over again, in order to feed your own greed to have the same gear that all your friends have. in many MMORPGs out there, you and a few friends can get a name in your guild/alliance/shard for good/bad things. what name do you make for YOURSELF in a 40 man raid group? oh, he's part of Kungo Guild, they raid Anthraxus, they're a raid guild. um, bleh. in a raid.. like dr. phil says, "it's not about you~!!"
See, the thing is, the ONLY game you're going to get that from is a single player game. or if you play swg, cox, uo, ryzom, daoc, shadowbane, eve, horizons, et cetera.
you can be part of a huge guild, achieve something grand. maybe you're the only one that can craft a certain type of armor/weapon.
maybe you and a couple of friends just slew some huge beast and have rare raw mats from the corpse and sweet loot, along with a huge trophy head?
versus, yeah, the 40 of us killed that thing.
nope, it's JoJo, Monchichi and I, the fantastic BoBo, have just slain Ugthar the Dragon-Lich-King of Falthamar!
the more i think about it; the more a lot of these MMOs just totally and completely disappoint me. the uncreativeness, lack of originality, and just laziness of all those devs is just appalling.
Oh, they DO lack originality. Very few of the ones that show real innovation actually succeed. But that says more about the gaming audience than it says about the MMORPG companies. WoW took advantage of the blizznet following, plus the buzz generated by a pretty game which was super-easy to play and *win* at. Throw in some Warhammer fans with no other real MMO to play that sounded like their game. Add in all the people attracted by the buzz. and that's why wow is so popular. not because of anything good, or original that they introduced.
How long have games like shadowbane, eve, horizons, ryzom, UO, COx (and the list goes on) been around? some are years before wow. do these games have enough subs to 1-pay the bills and 2-generate new content? that would make them successful and yes to both 1 and 2. part of what contributes to the beauty of these games is that they give their audience something special, something different; not just more of the same boring garbage.
For all it's shortcomings, COx delivers super heroes and villains. PLUS, they essentially give you anwhere from say 5-10 new player character options every issue. Sure, you still just have the 5 villain/hero archtypes. But, you get new powersets for some (possibly most or all) archtypes in each new issue. this essentially is giving you new character types to choose from. EVE online has politics, social activities, pvp, pve, space battles, space stations, stuff like that. UO has always been like swg used to be... you can be whatever you want. bored? unlearn skills and learn something new. not tough enough? drop fishing and pick up necromancy. i believe with some of their expansions, they've added onto the skills you have to choose from. plus, no mindless raiding for countless hours. horizons and ryzom sort of the same. except you can be everything, if you take the time to learn/do everything. no need to unlearn, you just do the skills and gain levels in said skills. same for eve for that matter. maybe not original, since UO first did it, but certainly doesn't put you in a stale rut and force you to create half a dozen alts if you want to do more.
is it a good thing? well, they HAVE been around for years, they ARE generating new content... is it for everyone? yes and no. no, because some people DON'T want an MMORPG. they want an MMO, something like doom, only you get to keep your toon instead of having to remake it. yes, because little kids grow up, and a lot of people like to be challenged with something other than more of the same old boring grind.
yes, games like these, while they may not be to everyone's liking BECAUSE some aren't as easy as EQ clones and they aren't using the "time = good stuff" formula, they force you to think and are challenging (some moreso than others), they are still successful. years of new expansions prove they are successful. now do i, or anyone, other than moronic fanbois, agree with everything their FAVORITE game does/doesn't do? no. will there ever be that perfect game where it's not a mortal sin to be a fanboi? no. but, games that offer a change, that offer a challenge, that offer something that gives you a feeling of accomplishment, or maybe pride in your crafting, your skill at brokering peace and starting an alliance of guilds, or whatever -- just something that doesn't break down into an auto-pilot state of playing the game -- these are the games that will be remembered by their players as being great.
i played UO, and i played EQ. the first two mmorpg's.
i remember uo as a great game. frustrating customer service, but nonetheless an OUSTANDING game. the housing (when it was finally introduced), the pvp, the crafting, the things you COULD craft, and the more things you could craft as they slowly would add stuff, the community, the guild/player run events, the GM run events. make customer service BETTER and the devs actually pay attention to what their customers wanted and that game would still be the number one game today, even WITH only 2d graphics. heck, you can even grow and create hybrids of different plants as of a few expansions back in UO. totally customizable housing. carebear portions of the shard and old school pvp portions of the shard. bazillions of big bads to hunt down with a few friends. the list just goes on and on.
what's wow got again? oh yeah, it's pretty.
i remember EQ as nothing but a pain in the butt. lord forbid you began life as a dark elf and had to go thru the entire DE city to get to your trainer. the agony of zoning what? 2 or 3 times to just get thru your city to your trainer and then 2 or 3 more zones just to leave the city???? without mentioning anything else about that game, just THAT makes me think it was garbage. the biggest part of my game was to figure out where i could go and hunt and train (and what race/class to play) which would give me the least amount of zoning possible. yeah, no wonder my thrill with this "brand new, ground breaking game" left quickly.
to summarize, i like doritos, chocolate, and challenges. and i LOVE the pretty ladies. don't know about anyone else, but in games, especially an mmorpg, i like to be challenged, and i occasionally like to forget the worries of life and just daydream, lost in a fantasy/sci-fi/whatever adventure. wow gives neither.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
See, what's a "hard core" soloer, though? Someone who does a lot of grinding? Because really, there's not a whole lot you can accomplish solo.
i can build and furnish a mansion, tower, guild hall, mall.
i can craft and sell wares that only i and a small handful of others can create.
i can find rare treasures to display at my crib, the guild's crib, or sell to the highest bidder.
i can hunt large and dangerous beasts, slay them, and bring glory to myself and pride to my people.
if the game has some sort of macro/semi-macro or an approved 3pp which does said, i can mindlessly macro for raw mats while watching tv or reading a book, or chit chatting with folks. then sell or use said mats.
i can explore strange new lands.
i can tame exotic wild beasts and monsters, then train them to do my bidding~!!
i can sneak about looking for other players to assassinate, cuz um, my toon is sociopathic. or undertake an assassination/bounty for lots of moolah.
i can rent out space in my big house for folks to sell their wares (mall) or just for people to come and party/socialize.
most anything a group can do, i can do solo (or duo/trio) and probably better. why better?
is it easier for one person, 5 people, 8 people, 20 people, or 40 people to be stealthy and sneaky?
quicker for which of the aforementioned sizes to make a hasty retreat?
how many mobs in how many games can you run away from and if you return in a timely manner (i.e. after doing some quick healing), you can basically pick up where you left off at and finish the beast?
most importantly, if it's a game of non-farming-raiding; then, the accomplishments you achieve mean something.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
keep reading people post things like this. in most guilds i've joined, the majority of players group when they're forced to. they group because it's a mission/quest that you can't single/duo/trio and you HAVE to have more. a lot of folks will group with the couple of people they bought the game to play with.
Just my opinion, but I would never join a guild with people I DIDN'T want to group with. I mean, what's the point of joining a guild then? Seriously?
show of hands, how many people are in guilds to have folks to talk to, make some friends, socialize in general and to have dependable help (who won't try to snarf all the good items when you need the help)?
And yet, you have NO desire to group with these very same people? Unless you're FORCED to?
now, in this, i'm not including blizznet types, jobless folks, or the ones that do nothing but play games.
but for those of us who make games THAT -- games; i don't see people grouping unless they're forced to. a lot of people play TO solo, or to hang with a couple of good friends.
I said it in a previous post...there's only so much you can accomlish solo. MMORPG's generally provide better rewards from group activities. And unlike WoW, many, many MMORPG's REQUIRE grouping to hit the level cap.
none come to mind.
COx
Never played.
UO
You go around in Old School UO alone. See how long you lasted before you got PK'ed.
Horizons
Never played.
Ryzom
Never played.
Eve
Again, you go around alone, and see how long it takes you to get killed. Also, leveling in Eve takes for-friggen-EVER, unlike WoW, where it can be done quickly.
, and if you dodge folks trying to kill you i think even Shadowbane -- you can max level solo all.
And yet, the most SUCCESSFUL MMORPG's (from a monetary/number of subscriber standpoint) require grouping at one level or another. Also, I'm not sure about Eve, but in UO if you want the best of the best stuff, you're going to need another player's help to get it. Kind of like WoW.
from just a traditional standpoint... other than the Odyssey, where in myth, legend, or books do we see the huge raiding groups?
Heh. Where in myth, legend, or fantasy do we see someone dying, spirit running to the graveyard, rezzing, and running back to the instance with just a little armor decay? Games take liberties with these things.
apples and oranges. but, by your analogy, since you CAN come back to life in the games, you have less reason to have a wingman/henchman/sidekick with you to help keep you alive.
Apples and oranges? Hardly. Games take liberties with the source material. ALL games take liberties with whatever source material they're based on...unless, of course, the source material was designed for the game in the first place.
even in something like dragonlance, how often were all of the eight-ish key heroes in one spot and fighting the same battle?
i'm not really seeing any examples. i see single heroes standing out. i see heroes with a lesser hero or two (whom we might label as sidekicks). why would the eq-clones think that after a couple of thousand years+ of literature and enjoyment that all of a sudden people playing a heroic-character, just want to be a face in the crowd? that's what a raid does. you're no longer standing out in the crowd, you're just a part of a crowd.
Well...because 100's of thousands of people are playing the games....that's why.
what are you talking about? you raid with 100s of thousands of people? you raid with 19-39 others, hence my statement of "
No, your question was (direct quote):"why would the eq-clones think that after a couple of thousand years+ of literature and enjoyment that all of a sudden people playing a heroic-character, just want to be a face in the crowd?"
you're not the uber hero of fate, come to save/destroy the world. you're just some peon, forced to fight endless hordes of the same easy kills, over and over again, in order to feed your own greed to have the same gear that all your friends have. in many MMORPGs out there, you and a few friends can get a name in your guild/alliance/shard for good/bad things. what name do you make for YOURSELF in a 40 man raid group? oh, he's part of Kungo Guild, they raid Anthraxus, they're a raid guild. um, bleh.
in a raid.. like dr. phil says, "it's not about you~!!"
See, the thing is, the ONLY game you're going to get that from is a single player game.
or if you play swg, cox, uo, ryzom, daoc, shadowbane, eve, horizons, et cetera.
You're full of crap. In SWG, one individual had NO large scale impact on the entire server. Why? Because whatever one person could accomplish, needed to respawn so the next person to accomplish. Same thing with UO. Same thing with Eve. Etc., etc.
you can be part of a huge guild, achieve something grand.
maybe you're the only one that can craft a certain type of armor/weapon.
Everything has to be available to everybody. Otherwise, people whine. Could you imagine if only one person could make an uber leet sword? You'd have 10,000 people complaining, griefing that person, whining to the company, etc.
maybe you and a couple of friends just slew some huge beast and have rare raw mats from the corpse and sweet loot, along with a huge trophy head?
That's...what instances are for. And since that instance needs to respawn for the next person after you.....
versus, yeah, the 40 of us killed that thing.
Because it TOOK 40 people to kill that thing. Woo hoo. It only took 3-5 of you to take down an instance boss. Which boss was tougher?
nope, it's JoJo, Monchichi and I, the fantastic BoBo, have just slain Ugthar the Dragon-Lich-King of Falthamar!
the more i think about it; the more a lot of these MMOs just totally and completely disappoint me. the uncreativeness, lack of originality, and just laziness of all those devs is just appalling.
Oh, they DO lack originality. Very few of the ones that show real innovation actually succeed. But that says more about the gaming audience than it says about the MMORPG companies.
WoW took advantage of the blizznet following,
Dude, the game's been out over a year and a half now. Any advantage that Blizzard had from it's reputation was used up months ago. People no longer buy the game because it's made by Blizzard. They buy it because it's WoW.
plus the buzz generated by a pretty game which was super-easy to play and *win* at. Throw in some Warhammer fans with no other real MMO to play that sounded like their game. Add in all the people attracted by the buzz. and that's why wow is so popular. not because of anything good, or original that they introduced.
Didn't I agree with you that very few of these games are original? You honestly think Warhammer online's going to be original? You're in for a big disappointment. Fantasy has been done so many times by so many different people, that at this point, ANYTHING you stick into a game can be found in another game somewhere else. The only difference between these things at this point is the combination of game elements.
And why do you seem to resent Blizzard (a for profit company) creating a GREAT product? Because whether you like it or not, its DEFINATELY a great product, just because of the sheer number of subscribers.
How long have games like shadowbane, eve, horizons, ryzom, UO, COx (and the list goes on) been around? some are years before wow. do these games have enough subs to 1-pay the bills and 2-generate new content? that would make them successful and yes to both 1 and 2.
Just because a game keeps it's head above water, doesn't make it successful. What kind of margins are these other games running at? How much profit? Did the presidents of the companies get bonuses this year?
I'm not saying these games aren't successful. I'm saying that your standard for "successful" is much lower than the business world's standard.
part of what contributes to the beauty of these games is that they give their audience something special, something different; not just more of the same boring garbage.
Son, no offense, but if these games are "beautiful", and WoW is not, why are you here posting on a WoW forum, instead of playing them?
That's the first time I've ever resorted to that argument, but come on! Everything about WoW sucks, while these other games are "beautiful" and "different".
For all it's shortcomings, COx delivers super heroes and villains. PLUS, they essentially give you anwhere from say 5-10 new player character options every issue. Sure, you still just have the 5 villain/hero archtypes. But, you get new powersets for some (possibly most or all) archtypes in each new issue. this essentially is giving you new character types to choose from.
EVE online has politics, social activities, pvp, pve, space battles, space stations, stuff like that.
UO has always been like swg used to be... you can be whatever you want. bored? unlearn skills and learn something new. not tough enough? drop fishing and pick up necromancy. i believe with some of their expansions, they've added onto the skills you have to choose from. plus, no mindless raiding for countless hours. horizons and ryzom sort of the same. except you can be everything, if you take the time to learn/do everything. no need to unlearn, you just do the skills and gain levels in said skills. same for eve for that matter. maybe not original, since UO first did it, but certainly doesn't put you in a stale rut and force you to create half a dozen alts if you want to do more.
And yet, total the subscriber bases of all these games together, and the number is STILL a minute fraction of WoW's.
Guess what? Blizzard's out to make money. They've apparently figured out the formula for making money. They're not going to change that because you personally find these other games so much better than WoW. Your only alternative really is to quit and play one of these other games.
WoW does things it's way. Other games do things their way.
is it a good thing? well, they HAVE been around for years,
BTW, CoH is about the same age as WoW, and CoV is much younger than WoW.
they ARE generating new content... is it for everyone? yes and no. no, because some people DON'T want an MMORPG. they want an MMO, something like doom, only you get to keep your toon instead of having to remake it. yes, because little kids grow up, and a lot of people like to be challenged with something other than more of the same old boring grind.
Couldn't agree more. Once a GAME becomes boring, it's time to move on.
yes, games like these, while they may not be to everyone's liking BECAUSE some aren't as easy as EQ clones
SWG isn't the most challenging game in the whole world. From what I played of Eve, the only "challenge" was staying awake.
NO MMORPG is challenging. Simply because they ALL boil down to the same thing...."autoattack", button 1, 2,3,1,2,3.
and they aren't using the "time = good stuff" formula,
Really? If you want the good stuff in Eve, you'll be putting in BUTTLOADS of time.
they force you to think and are challenging (some moreso than others), they are still successful. years of new expansions prove they are successful.
Eve doesn't force you to think. Eve forces you to stay awake. Pre-CU SWG...the only thing you needed to "think" about was getting your 90% comp armor and doctor buffs, than going and spamming your special attack on something. Post-NGE SWG, the only thing you need to "think" about is keeping your crosshairs on a target with all the lag.
Again, I need to ask...all of these games are so superior to WoW...why are you bothering hanging on the WoW forum? Shouldn't you be over in those forums, discussing gameplay? I mean, I'm not trying to be an asshole, but I just think that it's kind of ridiculous that you've elevated these games (all of them with base, crippling flaws) to a level of near divine superiority over WoW (which, for all it's faults, doesn't have a whole lot of crippling flaws).
now do i, or anyone, other than moronic fanbois, agree with everything their FAVORITE game does/doesn't do? no. will there ever be that perfect game where it's not a mortal sin to be a fanboi? no.
but, games that offer a change, that offer a challenge, that offer something that gives you a feeling of accomplishment, or maybe pride in your crafting, your skill at brokering peace and starting an alliance of guilds, or whatever -- just something that doesn't break down into an auto-pilot state of playing the game -- these are the games that will be remembered by their players as being great.
Heh. You could do all that in SWG. Ask the old playerbase how "great" the game is now...lol
WoW clearly isn't for you. WoW is a depthless pseudo-MMORPG (at least, in my opinion). The thing about it is...it works. People flock to it in droves, and people stay in droves.
i played UO, and i played EQ. the first two mmorpg's.
i remember uo as a great game. frustrating customer service, but nonetheless an OUSTANDING game. the housing (when it was finally introduced), the pvp, the crafting, the things you COULD craft, and the more things you could craft as they slowly would add stuff, the community, the guild/player run events, the GM run events.
I played UO too. I remember is as a ganker's paradise, where every time you took two steps, someone was ready to jump on your ass. I quit before I advanced my character very far, simply because I couldn't see the point in playing.
"And besides," I thought to myself, "there's this new game called Everquest out....."
Everquest, it turned out, was the single most boring experience of my life. I realized I hated the game when it took me 2 weeks to get a steel sword (or something like that).
make customer service BETTER and the devs actually pay attention to what their customers wanted and that game would still be the number one game today, even WITH only 2d graphics.
Bullsh!t. You could have UO customer service be bikini models who come out to your house and not only fix your problem but gratify you sexually, and UO STILL wouldn't hit anywhere NEAR 6 million subscibers. I mean, even cell phone games look better than UO at this point.
I mean, don't get me wrong...the game's still going after 10 years, and that's an accompishment. But it's a very, very, very niche game, which relys completely on it's community to keep it alive.
heck, you can even grow and create hybrids of different plants as of a few expansions back in UO. totally customizable housing. carebear portions of the shard and old school pvp portions of the shard. bazillions of big bads to hunt down with a few friends. the list just goes on and on.
Sounds like it has EVERYTHING you want in an MMORPG. So....why aren't you playing it anymore? And don't give me the "customer service" excuse...ALL MMORPG's have terrible customer service. I think they're required to, to be allowed into the MMORPG club or something.
what's wow got again? oh yeah, it's pretty.
i remember EQ as nothing but a pain in the butt. lord forbid you began life as a dark elf and had to go thru the entire DE city to get to your trainer. the agony of zoning what? 2 or 3 times to just get thru your city to your trainer and then 2 or 3 more zones just to leave the city???? without mentioning anything else about that game, just THAT makes me think it was garbage. the biggest part of my game was to figure out where i could go and hunt and train (and what race/class to play) which would give me the least amount of zoning possible. yeah, no wonder my thrill with this "brand new, ground breaking game" left quickly.
I hated Everquest. I'm not going to argue with you. Seriously...have you tried Lineage II? That sounds like it might be more the game for you.
to summarize, i like doritos, chocolate, and challenges. and i LOVE the pretty ladies. don't know about anyone else, but in games, especially an mmorpg, i like to be challenged, and i occasionally like to forget the worries of life and just daydream, lost in a fantasy/sci-fi/whatever adventure. wow gives neither.
Dude, Fritos are sooooooo much better than doritos.....
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Has anyone else been having problems with wierd double quotes?
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Has anyone else been having problems with wierd double quotes?
Edit #2:
Ok, now it's just getting REALLY odd.
Dude, Fritos are sooooooo much better than doritos.....
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Has anyone else been having problems with wierd double quotes?
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Has anyone else been having problems with wierd double quotes?
Originally posted by damian7 Originally posted by MikeMonger
See, what's a "hard core" soloer, though? Someone who does a lot of grinding? Because really, there's not a whole lot you can accomplish solo.
i can build and furnish a mansion, tower, guild hall, mall.
Not in WoW. You could in SWG, but ultimately, all it did was clutter the landscape with derilict buildings.
i can craft and sell wares that only i and a small handful of others can create.
Actually, you'd be hard pressed to find another game where recipies for the best stuff are very rare or epic drops. This accomplishes EXACTLY what you say you want in WoW.
i can find rare treasures to display at my crib, the guild's crib, or sell to the highest bidder.
Again, WoW doesn't have housing. The map's too small to support it. Yes, that's a problem with WoW. I never did like how small the world feels.
i can hunt large and dangerous beasts, slay them, and bring glory to myself and pride to my people.
You can do that in WoW too, and almost every other MMORPG on the planet.
if the game has some sort of macro/semi-macro or an approved 3pp which does said, i can mindlessly macro for raw mats while watching tv or reading a book, or chit chatting with folks. then sell or use said mats.
See, this is bullsh!t. I am 100% AGAINST macros. What's the friggen point of playing the game if you're not playing the game? SWG had the best resource collection model I've ever seen...drop a harvester, check back tomorrow. But then again, SWG required a whole lot more mats for making stuff than WoW does.
i can explore strange new lands.
You DID explore strange new lands in WoW. Once you explored them, they're no longer strange or new. Same thing in every MMORPG.
i can tame exotic wild beasts and monsters, then train them to do my bidding~!!
Uh, the hunter class?
i can sneak about looking for other players to assassinate, cuz um, my toon is sociopathic. or undertake an assassination/bounty for lots of moolah.
Uh, the rogue class?
i can rent out space in my big house for folks to sell their wares (mall) or just for people to come and party/socialize.
Yes, you want player housing. I like player housing too. Unless it was instances, you couldn't do it in WoW because of the map size. And I personally think that instanced housing is kind of stupid.
One of the things I liked doing in SWG was finding a cool spot with a great view AND was conveniently located for my house.
But, because SOE didn't want to risk pissing people off, they never got rid of all these old friggen houses that people had put up, so all the best spots were taken.
most anything a group can do, i can do solo (or duo/trio) and probably better. why better?
If you can do it solo, than it's easier than group content.
is it easier for one person, 5 people, 8 people, 20 people, or 40 people to be stealthy and sneaky?
If it's 5,8,20, or 40 rogues, than no, it isn't any easier. Is it easier for a monster to be taken down solo, or by 5,8,20, or 40 people?
quicker for which of the aforementioned sizes to make a hasty retreat?
Depends on how you define "quicker". I mean, if a group gets to the point where it needs to retreat, the surviving members can flee just as quickly as a solo person can. It just takes them longer to get to the point that they need to retreat.
See, this whole thing is moot. In pre-CU SWG, just about EVERYTHING was soloable. And people bitched and moaned to high heaven about it. "I shouldn't be able to solo a krayt! They're supposed to be the toughest critter in the universe!" Things like that were common on the forums.
how many mobs in how many games can you run away from and if you return in a timely manner (i.e. after doing some quick healing), you can basically pick up where you left off at and finish the beast?
No mob, in any game. Again, since this is an MMORPG, mobs need to be available to anybody who wants to hunt them. That's why critters respawn health once they leave combat. I've never known an MMORPG where this did NOT happen.
most importantly, if it's a game of non-farming-raiding; then, the accomplishments you achieve mean something.
ALL MMORPG's require "farming" and "grinding" to a certain extent. None of the ones you listed in your other post are any kind of exception to this.
And again, you'd be hard pressed to find an MMORPG where ONE person can make a big server-wide difference. Why? Because the game needs to accomidate the next person who wants to accomplish the exact same thing.
I mean, there are certain games out there that provide a way for people to occupy a limited number of high ranks, but to achieve those ranks, you ALWAYS need the help of a guild.
Originally posted by MikeMonger Originally posted by damian7
Originally posted by MikeMonger
See, what's a "hard core" soloer, though? Someone who does a lot of grinding? Because really, there's not a whole lot you can accomplish solo.
i can build and furnish a mansion, tower, guild hall, mall.
Not in WoW. You could in SWG, but ultimately, all it did was clutter the landscape with derilict buildings.
i can craft and sell wares that only i and a small handful of others can create.
Actually, you'd be hard pressed to find another game where recipies for the best stuff are very rare or epic drops. This accomplishes EXACTLY what you say you want in WoW.
i can find rare treasures to display at my crib, the guild's crib, or sell to the highest bidder.
Again, WoW doesn't have housing. The map's too small to support it. Yes, that's a problem with WoW. I never did like how small the world feels.
i can hunt large and dangerous beasts, slay them, and bring glory to myself and pride to my people.
You can do that in WoW too, and almost every other MMORPG on the planet.
if the game has some sort of macro/semi-macro or an approved 3pp which does said, i can mindlessly macro for raw mats while watching tv or reading a book, or chit chatting with folks. then sell or use said mats.
See, this is bullsh!t. I am 100% AGAINST macros. What's the friggen point of playing the game if you're not playing the game? SWG had the best resource collection model I've ever seen...drop a harvester, check back tomorrow. But then again, SWG required a whole lot more mats for making stuff than WoW does.
i can explore strange new lands.
You DID explore strange new lands in WoW. Once you explored them, they're no longer strange or new. Same thing in every MMORPG.
i can tame exotic wild beasts and monsters, then train them to do my bidding~!!
Uh, the hunter class?
i can sneak about looking for other players to assassinate, cuz um, my toon is sociopathic. or undertake an assassination/bounty for lots of moolah.
Uh, the rogue class?
i can rent out space in my big house for folks to sell their wares (mall) or just for people to come and party/socialize.
Yes, you want player housing. I like player housing too. Unless it was instances, you couldn't do it in WoW because of the map size. And I personally think that instanced housing is kind of stupid.
One of the things I liked doing in SWG was finding a cool spot with a great view AND was conveniently located for my house.
But, because SOE didn't want to risk pissing people off, they never got rid of all these old friggen houses that people had put up, so all the best spots were taken.
most anything a group can do, i can do solo (or duo/trio) and probably better. why better?
If you can do it solo, than it's easier than group content.
is it easier for one person, 5 people, 8 people, 20 people, or 40 people to be stealthy and sneaky?
If it's 5,8,20, or 40 rogues, than no, it isn't any easier. Is it easier for a monster to be taken down solo, or by 5,8,20, or 40 people?
quicker for which of the aforementioned sizes to make a hasty retreat?
Depends on how you define "quicker". I mean, if a group gets to the point where it needs to retreat, the surviving members can flee just as quickly as a solo person can. It just takes them longer to get to the point that they need to retreat.
See, this whole thing is moot. In pre-CU SWG, just about EVERYTHING was soloable. And people bitched and moaned to high heaven about it. "I shouldn't be able to solo a krayt! They're supposed to be the toughest critter in the universe!" Things like that were common on the forums.
how many mobs in how many games can you run away from and if you return in a timely manner (i.e. after doing some quick healing), you can basically pick up where you left off at and finish the beast?
No mob, in any game. Again, since this is an MMORPG, mobs need to be available to anybody who wants to hunt them. That's why critters respawn health once they leave combat. I've never known an MMORPG where this did NOT happen.
most importantly, if it's a game of non-farming-raiding; then, the accomplishments you achieve mean something.
ALL MMORPG's require "farming" and "grinding" to a certain extent. None of the ones you listed in your other post are any kind of exception to this.
And again, you'd be hard pressed to find an MMORPG where ONE person can make a big server-wide difference. Why? Because the game needs to accomidate the next person who wants to accomplish the exact same thing.
I mean, there are certain games out there that provide a way for people to occupy a limited number of high ranks, but to achieve those ranks, you ALWAYS need the help of a guild.
See, what's a "hard core" soloer, though? Someone who does a lot of grinding? Because really, there's not a whole lot you can accomplish solo.
looking over your post. you seem to agree with me that you are completely incorrect in the above large-fonted statement. there is a myraid of things in every single MMORPG that you can do solo. some games with incredibly weak content (like wow, the one you kept pointing out didn't have this or that), you can't do as much, because devs are weak.
problem is that you're limiting your comments to swg, wow, uo. i'm not. i'm talking about the dozen+ mmorpgs that i've played for a while. i could comment on your individual statements and point out the obvious inaccuracies in them. i won't. this post was to refute your assertation that there is nothing in mmorpg's that a solo player can do, lending to the false conclusion that mmorpg's are NOT built with the solo player in mind.
show me where a raiding guild makes a server-wide difference.
in a world with player-versus-player combat, one player most certainly does make a name for him/herself. even in wow, the friends i'd bg with would never be "oh no, it's XYZ guild"; we'd be like "hmm HubbaBubba is here, take that monster out asap, dude is a mega healer. Then, before they know what hit them, take down BigFatCharlie, without their healer and tank, we gots them."
from uo, to swg, to eve and beyond, you have individual players who stand out. is a heroic, infamous, or notorious reputation what sets someone out from others? if someone knows you by your reputation and talks about your exploits after having played with you, or is like "hey guys, i grouped with SandwichMan today~!!" -- you're a hero/villain, just like in the books.
in better games than wow, the ingame world reacts to what is done by players. only a handful at this time. but that handful is adding to the reactionary environment and other successful mmorpgs are picking up this environment. successful meaning they've been around for a while, have enough subs to pay their bills, finance operations and support expansions. some are more successful at others. some games that just suck are successful because they're EASY.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Comments
Isn't this just delicious? Mike is complaing here that I called him a "raider" who belongs to a "raiding guild" rather than a "person who raids" who belongs to a "guild that raids" yet..
He whines about ME nitpicking words because after I got him to explain the distinction between "raider" and "person who raids" that so deeply offended him, I attempted to use the actual definition that he provided and said that anyone with any common sense already knew. Apparently it's some kind of horrible failing on my part to try to find out what nitpickey distinction between "raiding guild" and "guild that raids" is offending Mike and to try to use the words like he says I should.
Mike's "symantics and sentence structure" whine is that I have repeatedly said that I do not want to raid and am not trying to get into a raid guild, and he somehow decided that that meant that I was claiming that I have never wanted to raid and have never tried to get into a raid guild. When I initially just pointed out to him that I had never made the 'never wanted to raid' claim, he elected to argue that I had, thus forcing me to point out that he was wrong. Apparently actually using English in what you say is poor debate tactic in Mike's mind.
Mike's debate style is to take a sentence that says one thing, like "I do not want to raid" and claim it says something different but somehwhat similar, like "I have never wanted to raid", then to engage in ad homenium arguement by accusing the other person of personal failings for something implied by the incorrect version of their statement, and then to accuse the person of at first lying, then playing symantics games when they point out that they said what they said and not the incorrect version.
The most absurd part is that Mike makes this complaint yet is unable to treat an example as, well, an example - way back I quoted a "guild that raids"'s home page as an example of the kind of times that raids tend to take. Rather than treat it as an example and address it on those grounds, he jumped to some complete sidetrack about how I was trying to join the guild just for loot, and later when I tried to point out that I only quoted them as an example, complained that I was obsessed with what it was an example of.
This is Mike's excellent debate style, he'll ask a question that I've responded to several times over as though I've never even commented on it. His question isn't really what the debate is about, what would be far more relevant is for Mike to explain why he belives raid content fosters community BETTER than group content, something he keeps declaring to be true without the least justification. Or whether that community is worth fostering; on all occasions when I pointed out things that are commonly found in guilds-that-raid that I don't like, he would recommend that I form my own guild, thereby arguing that I shouldn't interact with most of the very community fostered by raiding.
Or any of half a dozen other points I've brought up and he desperately runs from, like why he is unable to distinguish "don't want to raid" from "don't want to participate in the community".
Mike will say he disagrees with this, but if you complain about some aspect of the 'community' that raiding fosters he will respond by saying that you're in/looking at the wrong guild. Apparently the majority of guilds-that-raid in WOW are the wrong guild to be in by his standards. When I brought this up to him before, his only response was to ask me which side of the debate I was on, lol.
Ok, let me take a stab at this.
First a little background so as not to confuse anyone.
I played pretty much from release (dec 2004) to about 2 months ago. Had quit once before, and came back to give it another try.
I have been in 'a guild that raids' or 'raiding guilds' or whatever you might like to call it. No, they weren't all a bunch of retards, but yes they all did have dkp (which I don't like, but understand the reason for), and they all did have raiding schedules that required sign-ups.
What I did not like was the need to schedule my play-time. It is just a personal quirck of mine maybe, but I don't like commiting to people that I will 'be there' if I am not sure that I can. The demands of my family have to come first. If raids could be shorter, I might have tried, but since they were always in the 4 hour time area, I could not commit to them. On principal I would not reserve a spot that another guild member who could commit could occupy.
Now that you know a little about me, on to the topics.
"Why do raids exist?" - Can't say I have the answer to this except some MMORPG developer thought it was a good idea, would provide a challenge, and gives the players something to do while the devs were busy making other content. Other developers also thought it was a good idea and copied it.
There isn't a concensus on what size of group constitutes a 'raid' either. Wow has appear to pick 40 for most of its high end content, although UBRS is classified as a 'raid' (although it is not high-end), so in WOW terms its actually any group bigger than 5. To date in WOW though, it has been generally taken to mean 40.
"How do raids not foster community?"
It is generally hard to prove a negative so I will not attempt to 'prove' anything here. I can only talk about how it destroyed communities I was in in WOW.
The first guild I joined in WOW was on my first character that I started on a pve server - alliance side. It was a small guild, never had more than 20 or so members. Most of its members were in their 40's when I joined (Jan 2005).
We were small, but we were alot of fun. Each member had their own personality and we got to know each other fairly well.
Once the members started to hit 60 (I was the 2nd member to hit 60), thoughts began to turn to raiding.
The guild leader tried his best to get new members (as did we all), while constantly trying to convince the members that had hit 60 to hang in there. Unfortunately, competition for 60's was fierce, and one by one, members began leaving. In the end, our guild leader finally gave in and disbanded the guild. He did his best to place those of use who had stayed with him to the end in different guilds, but it was not the same. We were all split up (guilds were already sniping for members at this point and had defnite class requirements), our 'community', as small as it was, was destroyed. This was the first time I quit WOW.
I gave it a rest for a few months and then tried again. This time on a different server (a pvp one, horde side). I leveled up a Sham, and purposedly stayed away from guilds for a while.
When I neared 60, I joined one of the servers larger raiding guilds. After a few days of hearing the guild leader basically demean and push around his members I left the guild. I know a number of players that stayed only because they wanted to raid, but basically hated every minute of it. This was no community, it was a bunch of people (some of them very nice) who felt this was the only way they could get to the see any of the end-game.
I joined a larger guild, this one run by a terrific guild leader. This guilds only problem was that they had too many 60's (100+ at last count, with another 50 or so in the 50+ level range). Needless to say, when they started trying to organize raids, they had alot of problems. Drama ensued., the community again fragmented.
Since then I have joined other guilds with various characters with much the same end result. Once the guild got into a position to start raiding, either they were sniped by competing guilds, or ran into problems with the incoming members that were added in order to round out the roster.
I have yet to see a guild that get's into that 'sweet spot' of enough decent people to raid, but not too much, with little or no drama, AND casual enough to recognize my schedule. I'm sure they exist, and I take you at your word when you say yours is like that Mike, but I, like many other WOW players have had a much different experience.
The final straw for me was when I returned to my original server. Of the 30 or so people I had on my firiends list (which included a lot of my original guildies, along with random people I had met and played with along the way), only 1 remained. This was only 4 months after I had left. Only 1 of them had moved on to the end-game content. Of the rest? I can't tell you. Some quit I'm sure, some were probably playing alts, and the rest...who knows. I stayed for a about a month, and logged many hours getting my epic mount. I tried to find out about my old guildies, checking with the guilds that they had went to after we split, but nobody seemed to know.
So there you go Mike. I can't prove 'Why raids do not foster community', but I can tell you, from my personal experience, it has destroyed many communities, and I'm sure my story is not that unique.
On a side note, Blizz has already anounced that it will be releasing 'a ton' of solo and small group content in bc, along with smaller 10 man epic dungeons. Chilton stated quite clearly in his E3 interview that they wanted to make raids 'more accessible' by reducing their size. While this doesn't mean that we still wont have the same issues at 70 that we have at 60, I don't think that anyone can state that 'It has been Blizzards plan all along to only support raiders' and 'only at the 40 man level', but I guess we will just have to wait and see what this turns into in the expansion.
Until then, my account is cancelled.
only kids whine.. if ur not a kid i dont think u whine :P WoW's community is a whining bunch of little kids ><
Maybe you're right. Maybe my guild is the exception, not the rule.
In your case, yes, definately....raids definately did everything BUT foster community. I still believe that that was their intended purpose, though.
I mean, it's hard to say. If you look at your typical raid thread, even if it starts off trying to seriously discuss the topic, one camp or the other starts sprouting off the same typical crap (this thread obviously being no exception). I've seen plenty of "I like raiding and here's why" posts. I've seen plenty of "I hate raiding and here's why" posts. But mostly what you see is:
"Non-raiders whine and want easy epics mailed straight to them."
OR
"Raiders are no life losers who don't want their e-peen threatened."
I dunno, maybe for every one of you (terrible experiences forced them from the game), there's one of me (great experiences keep me in the game). Maybe for every person who's had experiences like mine, there's five people who've had experiences like yours, or vice versa.
We definately won't find out on forums, though. People just seem to get so hyper worked up over it.
The fact they lose more peoples with raiding then the amount they win with it doesn't mean the game is a failure or not going strong, it just mean that it could have done better and it isn't, because of all the peoples it lose.
New players joins for the GAME, not for raiding.
Raiders would majoritaly stay in a game that offer a decent grouping-endgame and an independant raiding system that has no impact on grouping. And even if they wouldn't, they are only a tiny minority...screwing the majority and the happiness of the majority for a minority is not worth it.
WoW success has NOTHING to do with raiding, even Blizzard says that 25% of the players play the post-60 game...there are grouping events, there are PvP events and there are Raiding events past 60...and NOW, currently, as we speak, there is NEVER 5% of the players raiding, thereby raiding is harming a LOT more than helping the game. Not all this 25% is CURRENTLY playing the post-60 aspect of the game. What matter is the CURRENTLY played aspect of the game. Raiding fails to break 5% at ANY given time.
The fact WoW is successful despite raiding is only showing how strong and nice other aspects are, despite angering fans and destroying their fanbase in a very nasty way, the game is still doing great. The game is not doing great because of raiding, since there are not even 5% of the players raiding at ANY given moment, it is doing great for OTHER aspects. Raiding is killing Blizzard in the long term, they are ruining their fanbase beyond anything they are conceiving.
I am pretty confident that GROUPING break 50% of the players base at MANY given moments in a day, SOLOING must be breaking the 50% on rare occasion as well. Raiding, not even 5% at ANY given moment, and you are screwing the majority for that? A mistake.
If an aspect is not played a lot, you have to consider it impact on the other aspect of the game. Raiding has MANY negative impacts on every other aspect of the game, from soloing, to grouping, to PvPing, to tradeskilling. Raiding in the current form I mean. If raiding earned stuff would have no impact and be useless in grouping, it would lose all negative aspect is has against grouping but remain whatever minority benefit it has, maybe to a lesser extand, but a respectable company will not mind losing players who enjoy to ABUSE others, because raiding in this actual form is ABUSING the rest of the game, and all the peoples defending it are entertainment-abusers. Nothing less. But nothing new to the Uber-Guilds folks they hire.
The majority of players left the PvP driven games/zone, even WoW can understand that to some extand. They should be able to understand that the same logic, players feeling abused by some gameplay, want a relief from that gameplay. And Raiding is abusing every other gameplay just like any gameplay receiving all benefits. See, if I would give the best items in SOLO only, it would harm the rest of the game. If I give the best items only in raiding/PvP, it harm the rest of the game. Your average player is not dreaming about succeeding in PvP/Raiding, but in succeeding Soloing/Grouping, thereby all the best rewards should be in those systems. Quite simple, you want the MASS to dream and possibly attain it (no matter how long and far such a goal would be for a casual, it is possible in grouping/soloing).
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Eh, I think grouping is the primary reason why peope play WoW, and MMORPG's in general. I mean, really...WoW gameplay is far from interactive...autoattack, button 1,2,1,2,1,2. I think the hard core soloer would get bored very, very quickly.
Maybe you're right. Maybe my guild is the exception, not the rule.
In your case, yes, definately....raids definately did everything BUT foster community. I still believe that that was their intended purpose, though.
I mean, it's hard to say. If you look at your typical raid thread, even if it starts off trying to seriously discuss the topic, one camp or the other starts sprouting off the same typical crap (this thread obviously being no exception). I've seen plenty of "I like raiding and here's why" posts. I've seen plenty of "I hate raiding and here's why" posts. But mostly what you see is:
"Non-raiders whine and want easy epics mailed straight to them."
OR
"Raiders are no life losers who don't want their e-peen threatened."
I dunno, maybe for every one of you (terrible experiences forced them from the game), there's one of me (great experiences keep me in the game). Maybe for every person who's had experiences like mine, there's five people who've had experiences like yours, or vice versa.
We definately won't find out on forums, though. People just seem to get so hyper worked up over it.
actually, this person who is extremely dissatisfied with raiding would just like high level content. maybe real pvp, not this BG-grind garbage. outposts in every zone which any faction can take over and hold? there's an incredibly easy and obvious outdoor pvp theme to run with. oh wait, EQ didn't do it, so copycats won't think of it. too bad for them.
maybe a player-run economy. ever see koreans on pre-cu swg servers? the game where the best equipment is player made? where you have item decay? oh wait, you don't have third-world farmers spamming in game worlds such as those; BECAUSE, they have no place. yet, in wow's non-existent player-economy, farmers thrive. so here is something else raiding brings to us. raiding = best items from drops, not player-crafted.
i've watched/participated in a number of raiding guilds in a number of games. kids, jobless, and yeah people that put no priority on anything in their lives are the individuals which comprise the core of these guilds. the ones that never miss a raid, ever. the ones that get decked out first because they keep a bazillion points. whatever community exists there, is not one that leaves a good taste in your mouth, makes ya feel kind of dirty (and not the good kind of dirty).
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Grouping is the primary reason.
Soloing is the secondary reason.
PvPing is the third reason.
Tradeskill is the fourth reason.
Raiding is the fifth reason.
I might have done a mistake between PvP and tradeskills, I am unsure honestly and neither does I really care. There are FAR more players who want to SOLO in PvE than you have Raiders + PvPers + Tradeskillers. The only aspect that outmatch soloing is grouping and it is not an easy outmatching. Soloing should thereby be the SECOND most important aspect in a MMO, just after grouping.
The 'hardcore' soloers...you know, if a group get to bored of a gameplay, they are not the hardcore of that gameplay, they may be hardcore soloers in general and some other games, but if they are bored of Solo in WoW but other players are not, then the other players will take the 'hardcore role'.
See, there was hardcore players before raiding exist in EQ. They left upon seeing raiding. After that the game starts considering the uber guild like hardcores, yet, those players where noobs compare to the real hardcore players. All concepts are relative. SoE choose not to cater to the first minority of hardcore and yet, they choose to cater to the second. The first minority at least allow the casuals to dream of succeeding, in 3 years maybe, but still succeeding. I question the wisdom of catering to raiding, since casuals aren't even allowed to dream anymore.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Eh, I think grouping is the primary reason why peope play WoW, and MMORPG's in general. I mean, really...WoW gameplay is far from interactive...autoattack, button 1,2,1,2,1,2. I think the hard core soloer would get bored very, very quickly.
i keep reading people post things like this. in most guilds i've joined, the majority of players group when they're forced to. they group because it's a mission/quest that you can't single/duo/trio and you HAVE to have more. a lot of folks will group with the couple of people they bought the game to play with.
now, in this, i'm not including blizznet types, jobless folks, or the ones that do nothing but play games.
but for those of us who make games THAT -- games; i don't see people grouping unless they're forced to. a lot of people play TO solo, or to hang with a couple of good friends.
from just a traditional standpoint... other than the Odyssey, where in myth, legend, or books do we see the huge raiding groups? even in something like dragonlance, how often were all of the eight-ish key heroes in one spot and fighting the same battle?
i'm not really seeing any examples. i see single heroes standing out. i see heroes with a lesser hero or two (whom we might label as sidekicks). why would the eq-clones think that after a couple of thousand years+ of literature and enjoyment that all of a sudden people playing a heroic-character, just want to be a face in the crowd? that's what a raid does. you're no longer standing out in the crowd, you're just a part of a crowd.
you're not the uber hero of fate, come to save/destroy the world. you're just some peon, forced to fight endless hordes of the same easy kills, over and over again, in order to feed your own greed to have the same gear that all your friends have.
the more i think about it; the more a lot of these MMOs just totally and completely disappoint me. the uncreativeness, lack of originality, and just laziness of all those devs is just appalling.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Eh, I think grouping is the primary reason why peope play WoW, and MMORPG's in general. I mean, really...WoW gameplay is far from interactive...autoattack, button 1,2,1,2,1,2. I think the hard core soloer would get bored very, very quickly.
i keep reading people post things like this. in most guilds i've joined, the majority of players group when they're forced to. they group because it's a mission/quest that you can't single/duo/trio and you HAVE to have more. a lot of folks will group with the couple of people they bought the game to play with.
now, in this, i'm not including blizznet types, jobless folks, or the ones that do nothing but play games.
but for those of us who make games THAT -- games; i don't see people grouping unless they're forced to. a lot of people play TO solo, or to hang with a couple of good friends.
from just a traditional standpoint... other than the Odyssey, where in myth, legend, or books do we see the huge raiding groups? even in something like dragonlance, how often were all of the eight-ish key heroes in one spot and fighting the same battle?
i'm not really seeing any examples. i see single heroes standing out. i see heroes with a lesser hero or two (whom we might label as sidekicks). why would the eq-clones think that after a couple of thousand years+ of literature and enjoyment that all of a sudden people playing a heroic-character, just want to be a face in the crowd? that's what a raid does. you're no longer standing out in the crowd, you're just a part of a crowd.
you're not the uber hero of fate, come to save/destroy the world. you're just some peon, forced to fight endless hordes of the same easy kills, over and over again, in order to feed your own greed to have the same gear that all your friends have.
the more i think about it; the more a lot of these MMOs just totally and completely disappoint me. the uncreativeness, lack of originality, and just laziness of all those devs is just appalling.
Which is why we pray every night that you'll become enlighten by the suckiness of MMORPGs and go back to playing console single player rpgs.
Trust me, you don't want the decay item loss. We had that one of the server in NWN, God, most of the people on the server spent more time mining and forging then adventuring. When we did go to adventure, we went to mine. To make matter worse, the DM threw in a rust monster.
And let's not talk about how the DM put a NPC rogue in the game who robbed you of your gold, making it hard to pay for ingredients for your forging. The game drove you insane because you only went to dungeons to reforge soon to be decaying items.
Also in NWN, we had pvp/pve server where you can take over terrority, it got ugly and lot of people left because the evil side took over the good side easily. Now replace the evil side with Horde and the Good side with alliance. What made matters worse is that people on the good side would go over to the bad side making fighting lopsided. In order for this idea to work, Blizzard would have to limit the number of players on each side, which wouldn't work as you would be forcing players to play characters or class they want to play.
The reason he wants these types of changes for MMORPGs is because the single player console games have been a let down of the late. Many of them are too short and you can't add outside content to the game to make the world more vast or cater to your needs.
Personally i feel like your saying that if your not raiding in an instance that we may as well not even play the game.I wont ever participate in a raid because i dont have 4 to 6 hours of time to waste on a game period.
1 way for players like me to get the "uber armor" would be if another player dropped it if i killed him in PvP.A rare occurence but its possible.
(shrugs)
Did you ever think that maybe players play an mmo for content rather than community?single player games dont have content updates like mmo's.
Want to ENJOY an mmo?
Dont start a guild and dont be a leader or volunteer to be coleader or captain.
Just play the damn game:)
they instanced the raids. therefore, since it's an instance, it's not an EQ clone <<< this is something of what their definition must be.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
i can build and furnish a mansion, tower, guild hall, mall.
i can craft and sell wares that only i and a small handful of others can create.
i can find rare treasures to display at my crib, the guild's crib, or sell to the highest bidder.
i can hunt large and dangerous beasts, slay them, and bring glory to myself and pride to my people.
if the game has some sort of macro/semi-macro or an approved 3pp which does said, i can mindlessly macro for raw mats while watching tv or reading a book, or chit chatting with folks. then sell or use said mats.
i can explore strange new lands.
i can tame exotic wild beasts and monsters, then train them to do my bidding~!!
i can sneak about looking for other players to assassinate, cuz um, my toon is sociopathic. or undertake an assassination/bounty for lots of moolah.
i can rent out space in my big house for folks to sell their wares (mall) or just for people to come and party/socialize.
most anything a group can do, i can do solo (or duo/trio) and probably better. why better?
is it easier for one person, 5 people, 8 people, 20 people, or 40 people to be stealthy and sneaky?
quicker for which of the aforementioned sizes to make a hasty retreat?
how many mobs in how many games can you run away from and if you return in a timely manner (i.e. after doing some quick healing), you can basically pick up where you left off at and finish the beast?
most importantly, if it's a game of non-farming-raiding; then, the accomplishments you achieve mean something.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
i can build and furnish a mansion, tower, guild hall, mall.
Not in WoW. You could in SWG, but ultimately, all it did was clutter the landscape with derilict buildings.
i can craft and sell wares that only i and a small handful of others can create.
Actually, you'd be hard pressed to find another game where recipies for the best stuff are very rare or epic drops. This accomplishes EXACTLY what you say you want in WoW.
i can find rare treasures to display at my crib, the guild's crib, or sell to the highest bidder.
Again, WoW doesn't have housing. The map's too small to support it. Yes, that's a problem with WoW. I never did like how small the world feels.
i can hunt large and dangerous beasts, slay them, and bring glory to myself and pride to my people.
You can do that in WoW too, and almost every other MMORPG on the planet.
if the game has some sort of macro/semi-macro or an approved 3pp which does said, i can mindlessly macro for raw mats while watching tv or reading a book, or chit chatting with folks. then sell or use said mats.
See, this is bullsh!t. I am 100% AGAINST macros. What's the friggen point of playing the game if you're not playing the game? SWG had the best resource collection model I've ever seen...drop a harvester, check back tomorrow. But then again, SWG required a whole lot more mats for making stuff than WoW does.
i can explore strange new lands.
You DID explore strange new lands in WoW. Once you explored them, they're no longer strange or new. Same thing in every MMORPG.
i can tame exotic wild beasts and monsters, then train them to do my bidding~!!
Uh, the hunter class?
i can sneak about looking for other players to assassinate, cuz um, my toon is sociopathic. or undertake an assassination/bounty for lots of moolah.
Uh, the rogue class?
i can rent out space in my big house for folks to sell their wares (mall) or just for people to come and party/socialize.
Yes, you want player housing. I like player housing too. Unless it was instances, you couldn't do it in WoW because of the map size. And I personally think that instanced housing is kind of stupid.
One of the things I liked doing in SWG was finding a cool spot with a great view AND was conveniently located for my house.
But, because SOE didn't want to risk pissing people off, they never got rid of all these old friggen houses that people had put up, so all the best spots were taken.
most anything a group can do, i can do solo (or duo/trio) and probably better. why better?
If you can do it solo, than it's easier than group content.
is it easier for one person, 5 people, 8 people, 20 people, or 40 people to be stealthy and sneaky?
If it's 5,8,20, or 40 rogues, than no, it isn't any easier. Is it easier for a monster to be taken down solo, or by 5,8,20, or 40 people?
quicker for which of the aforementioned sizes to make a hasty retreat?
Depends on how you define "quicker". I mean, if a group gets to the point where it needs to retreat, the surviving members can flee just as quickly as a solo person can. It just takes them longer to get to the point that they need to retreat.
See, this whole thing is moot. In pre-CU SWG, just about EVERYTHING was soloable. And people bitched and moaned to high heaven about it. "I shouldn't be able to solo a krayt! They're supposed to be the toughest critter in the universe!" Things like that were common on the forums.
how many mobs in how many games can you run away from and if you return in a timely manner (i.e. after doing some quick healing), you can basically pick up where you left off at and finish the beast?
No mob, in any game. Again, since this is an MMORPG, mobs need to be available to anybody who wants to hunt them. That's why critters respawn health once they leave combat. I've never known an MMORPG where this did NOT happen.
most importantly, if it's a game of non-farming-raiding; then, the accomplishments you achieve mean something.
ALL MMORPG's require "farming" and "grinding" to a certain extent. None of the ones you listed in your other post are any kind of exception to this.
And again, you'd be hard pressed to find an MMORPG where ONE person can make a big server-wide difference. Why? Because the game needs to accomidate the next person who wants to accomplish the exact same thing.
I mean, there are certain games out there that provide a way for people to occupy a limited number of high ranks, but to achieve those ranks, you ALWAYS need the help of a guild.
i can build and furnish a mansion, tower, guild hall, mall.
Not in WoW. You could in SWG, but ultimately, all it did was clutter the landscape with derilict buildings.
i can craft and sell wares that only i and a small handful of others can create.
Actually, you'd be hard pressed to find another game where recipies for the best stuff are very rare or epic drops. This accomplishes EXACTLY what you say you want in WoW.
i can find rare treasures to display at my crib, the guild's crib, or sell to the highest bidder.
Again, WoW doesn't have housing. The map's too small to support it. Yes, that's a problem with WoW. I never did like how small the world feels.
i can hunt large and dangerous beasts, slay them, and bring glory to myself and pride to my people.
You can do that in WoW too, and almost every other MMORPG on the planet.
if the game has some sort of macro/semi-macro or an approved 3pp which does said, i can mindlessly macro for raw mats while watching tv or reading a book, or chit chatting with folks. then sell or use said mats.
See, this is bullsh!t. I am 100% AGAINST macros. What's the friggen point of playing the game if you're not playing the game? SWG had the best resource collection model I've ever seen...drop a harvester, check back tomorrow. But then again, SWG required a whole lot more mats for making stuff than WoW does.
i can explore strange new lands.
You DID explore strange new lands in WoW. Once you explored them, they're no longer strange or new. Same thing in every MMORPG.
i can tame exotic wild beasts and monsters, then train them to do my bidding~!!
Uh, the hunter class?
i can sneak about looking for other players to assassinate, cuz um, my toon is sociopathic. or undertake an assassination/bounty for lots of moolah.
Uh, the rogue class?
i can rent out space in my big house for folks to sell their wares (mall) or just for people to come and party/socialize.
Yes, you want player housing. I like player housing too. Unless it was instances, you couldn't do it in WoW because of the map size. And I personally think that instanced housing is kind of stupid.
One of the things I liked doing in SWG was finding a cool spot with a great view AND was conveniently located for my house.
But, because SOE didn't want to risk pissing people off, they never got rid of all these old friggen houses that people had put up, so all the best spots were taken.
most anything a group can do, i can do solo (or duo/trio) and probably better. why better?
If you can do it solo, than it's easier than group content.
is it easier for one person, 5 people, 8 people, 20 people, or 40 people to be stealthy and sneaky?
If it's 5,8,20, or 40 rogues, than no, it isn't any easier. Is it easier for a monster to be taken down solo, or by 5,8,20, or 40 people?
quicker for which of the aforementioned sizes to make a hasty retreat?
Depends on how you define "quicker". I mean, if a group gets to the point where it needs to retreat, the surviving members can flee just as quickly as a solo person can. It just takes them longer to get to the point that they need to retreat.
See, this whole thing is moot. In pre-CU SWG, just about EVERYTHING was soloable. And people bitched and moaned to high heaven about it. "I shouldn't be able to solo a krayt! They're supposed to be the toughest critter in the universe!" Things like that were common on the forums.
how many mobs in how many games can you run away from and if you return in a timely manner (i.e. after doing some quick healing), you can basically pick up where you left off at and finish the beast?
No mob, in any game. Again, since this is an MMORPG, mobs need to be available to anybody who wants to hunt them. That's why critters respawn health once they leave combat. I've never known an MMORPG where this did NOT happen.
most importantly, if it's a game of non-farming-raiding; then, the accomplishments you achieve mean something.
ALL MMORPG's require "farming" and "grinding" to a certain extent. None of the ones you listed in your other post are any kind of exception to this.
And again, you'd be hard pressed to find an MMORPG where ONE person can make a big server-wide difference. Why? Because the game needs to accomidate the next person who wants to accomplish the exact same thing.
I mean, there are certain games out there that provide a way for people to occupy a limited number of high ranks, but to achieve those ranks, you ALWAYS need the help of a guild.
See, what's a "hard core" soloer,
though? Someone who does a lot of grinding? Because really, there's
not a whole lot you can accomplish solo.
looking over your post. you seem to agree with me that you are completely incorrect in the above large-fonted statement. there is a myraid of things in every single MMORPG that you can do solo. some games with incredibly weak content (like wow, the one you kept pointing out didn't have this or that), you can't do as much, because devs are weak.
problem is that you're limiting your comments to swg, wow, uo. i'm not. i'm talking about the dozen+ mmorpgs that i've played for a while. i could comment on your individual statements and point out the obvious inaccuracies in them. i won't. this post was to refute your assertation that there is nothing in mmorpg's that a solo player can do, lending to the false conclusion that mmorpg's are NOT built with the solo player in mind.
show me where a raiding guild makes a server-wide difference.
in a world with player-versus-player combat, one player most certainly does make a name for him/herself. even in wow, the friends i'd bg with would never be "oh no, it's XYZ guild"; we'd be like "hmm HubbaBubba is here, take that monster out asap, dude is a mega healer. Then, before they know what hit them, take down BigFatCharlie, without their healer and tank, we gots them."
from uo, to swg, to eve and beyond, you have individual players who stand out. is a heroic, infamous, or notorious reputation what sets someone out from others? if someone knows you by your reputation and talks about your exploits after having played with you, or is like "hey guys, i grouped with SandwichMan today~!!" -- you're a hero/villain, just like in the books.
in better games than wow, the ingame world reacts to what is done by players. only a handful at this time. but that handful is adding to the reactionary environment and other successful mmorpgs are picking up this environment. successful meaning they've been around for a while, have enough subs to pay their bills, finance operations and support expansions. some are more successful at others. some games that just suck are successful because they're EASY.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?