Click to move: outdated?

DeletedAcct

Is it time for games to give up the click to move interface and switch over to the modern "wasd" controls? Personally, I think the point and click style needs to die, but that is just my opinion. Now let's here all of yours

Knightblast

Twitch games are not appropriate for RPGs.

In an RPG the player input is in deciding what you want your character to do ... whether your character can do it well depends on the character's skills, and not the player's skills.  The character in an RPG is not merely the extension of the player, as is the case in an FPS, for example.  Importing so-called "player skill" ideas into an RPG is totally inappropriate and guts the entire idea of a character-based game, which is the essence of a roleplaying game to begin with.

GrimReapez

---

Originally posted by beatbox

Originally posted by Novaseeker
Twitch games are not appropriate for RPGs.

BWHahahahhahaha

---

LOL @ You

He's 100% correct.

Knightblast

---

Originally posted by beatbox

TWITCH GAMES not appropriate for RPG's...
That's quite funny tbh, do you guys even think before typing something, have you guys ever played a twitch rpg ever in your life to even comment on the subject ?

---

Yes and they are not true RPGs.  Any game that replaces character skill with player skill is, by virtue of that fact, diluting the RPG element of the game.  I'm not saying that these games can't be fun for twitch fans to play, but they are not true RPGs.

Knightblast

---

Originally posted by beatbox

Sir you are COMPLETELY clueless about RPG's as neocron is a Twitch FPS/RPG hybrid, and not only the game is very successfull towards RPER's but it offers much more than any pnc games out there because of the actuall freedom of actions. You really, really need to play something else than dungeon siege 2 to make an opinion.

---

You obviously are having difficulties reading what I actually wrote, so I frankly doubt the utility of pursuing a further debate with you about this.

What I said was that games like that dilute the RPG element.  As you say yourself, Necron is a HYBRID game ... it is already a game that admittedly has diluted some of its RPG element in favor of a FPS element.  That, in itself, dilutes the RPG element because a FPS is 100% diametrically opposed to a RPG.

Look at Halo or Half Life or any other FPS.  You basically *become* the protagonist, in that the "character" is merely an extension of you.  Whether "Master Chief" can hit his targets is 100% dependent on you, Master Chief is not a separate entity from you, he is just an extension of you in a virtual world.  An extension of you in a virtual world is NOT an RPG.

Listen, I don't need you lecturing me about RPGs.  I have been playing RPGs, online and offline for 25 years now, and I know what the heck an RPG is, and what an RPG is not.  I never said that non-RPGs or "hybrid" semi-RPGs are not fun games for folks who like the game mechanic offered there ... what I did say, and what I will always say, is that these games dilute some of the RPG element in favor of a player-based element, which is, itself, antithetical to RPGs as a genre.

So if you like twitch games, fine.  Just realise that they aren't true RPGs.  Necron is a diluted RPG by your own admission, no matter what you think.

wjrasmussen

Didn't vote. Don't like it what  you are asking.

Signe

Don't be silly.  You can role play doing anything.  Rpg, fps, walking down the street, at your AA meetings...  sometimes I rp while sitting on the sofa staring blankly into space.  Granted, I don't usually twitch whilst doing
 it.  

Fireburst

Different control mechanisums suit differnent game engines. Point to click in an isometic game is by far the best way to move. Not every game is full blown 3d ya know.

Lokimer

I don't necessarily disagree with you about the conventional fps not being similar to the conventional RPG game. But the readers are taking offense at the way you're wording your argument. "Diluting the rpg element" sounds almost degrading.

katriell

---

Originally posted by Signe

Don't be silly. You can role play doing anything. Rpg, fps, walking down the street, at your AA meetings... sometimes I rp while sitting on the sofa staring blankly into space. Granted, I don't usually twitch whilst doing it.

---

Hehe, brilliant post.

I refuse to play a click-to-move game, unless it has an option for keyboard movement. Interface and controls, and graphics, are important to me because no matter how good gameplay is otherwise, I can't enjoy a game that looks horrible or is too awkward to control. It has to be accessible.

Cowinspace

Click to move is always a usefull backup.

As to the off topic twitch argument - its not suitable for everyone (esp. in mmoRPGs, it places player skill above character skill). I suck at twitch games where there are other real folks to compete with but I can compete using a Point and Click method, other people have different abilities.

And to the idiot who said non twitch is just button mashing, I hate to break your bubble but so is twitch. But in non-twitch games you are limited to how often you can mash so skill in choosing when and where to use abilities comes through, in twitch he who masheth fastest wins.

Zeaus

---

Originally posted by Zorvan
Is it time for games to give up the click to move interface and switch over to the modern "wasd" controls? Personally, I think the point and click style needs to die, but that is just my opinion. Now let's here all of yours

---

If you can think of a better way to control my character while eating, drinking, talking on the phone or having a smoke then yes abandon point and click.

Until then, no it stays.

josjikawa

most mmorpgs are just much better with point and click movement in my opinion. they wouldnt be that good if they used wsad keys for them, for example ragnarok would really suck with wsad keys. so no but thx =p

Xpheyel

I prefer keyboard movement over PNC in any 3D setting. Unless its really well executed, PNC gets tedious to me.

Gameloading

---

Originally posted by beatbox

TWITCH GAMES not appropriate for RPG's...
That's quite funny tbh, do you guys even think before typing something, have you guys ever played a twitch rpg ever in your life to even comment on the subject ?

---

Beatbox is definitly right. I mean, he plays two games that reach about the bottom in subscribers because only so little people like the game, that it has to be true what he said. and I´m willing to back up his statement. I mean, look at D&DO another game that is doing "great" and that is a perfect example of how "good" twitch based MMO's are doing.

a word of advice to you beatbox, just because someone has a diffrent oppinion then you have, doesn't mean he or she is "clueless".

Shownder

PNC for 2D games, or 2 and a half (like diablo). WASD keys for full 3D.

And for the poster that has been playing RPGs for 25 years... I think you got your difinitions mixed up. RPG means Role Playing Game, so in a sense... They are supposed to be a extension of you. RPG can have many different styles. As someone said, you can walk down the street playinga RPG. Just act like something you arn't =P

Maybe you're thinking of the traditional Turn Based RPG system, a la Final Fantasy.

Cleffy

Some games just can't go WASD due to its design; like Tactica Online and Granado Espada definetly should be click to move.  Also like mentioned before; 2d games work good with click to move.  However, in the most typical sense of an mmo; they should be WASD.  Alot of companies are moving this way with games like Ragnarok Online 2, SUN, Huxley, Age of Conan being WASD simply because its alot better for a single player 3d game.

NeuroXl

---

Originally posted by Zorvan
Is it time for games to give up the click to move interface and switch over to the modern "wasd" controls? Personally, I think the point and click style needs to die, but that is just my opinion. Now let's here all of yours

---

hmm i like the wasd ...

but if point and click can still be fitted within the context of moves with no problem, that would ok i guess ...

Suta_Safaia

WASD vs Clicking...I would have to say it depends entirely on the game.  For games like CoH/V, WASD just seemed natural.  Games like Ragnarok work better with clicking.  Actually, I don't really think WASD is even possable in Ragnarok XD but that's beside the point.  Just leave the options open, let people pick, everybody wins.

As far as RPG's being twitch...I would say most of the time that yea, being twitch can take away from the idea of being in an RPG.  But games like Phantasy Star Online don't really seem to badly off despite being twitch.  Since it auto-locks as long as your facing an enemy, you really don't have to rely on your skill, you just let your stuff fly when your in range to do it.

Umbrood

---

Originally posted by beatbox
Sir you are COMPLETELY clueless about RPG's as neocron is a Twitch FPS/RPG hybrid, and not only the game is very successfull towards RPER's but it offers much more than any pnc games out there because of the actuall freedom of actions. You really, really need to play something else than dungeon siege 2 to make an opinion.

---

Ye, Neocron is extremely sucessfull, ask both Neocron players.

JMoney95

Twitch games would never work for an MMO due to the ping times. In FPS games there are like MAX 64 players in a game. In an MMO where people's pings are 100-300ms the timing would be WAY off. People would just compalin that they executed this action at this time but it missed / didn't work, but say both people had 250ms pings, guy A hits a move, it takes 250ms to travel, then 250ms to get to guy B. Half a second of delay between the two, the guy could have moved alot in that time. Not to mention "Aimbots" for MMOs running rampant.

If the connection speeds were more inline with FPS, I generally get  30-60ms pings in BF2, then it could work, but with a large number of players the ping just grows. Could you imagine a large pvp war with twitch? You'd be GUESSING the movements of other players to hope the thing worked.

Now back to the original topic: I hate click to move. I think at the very least each game should give you the option for WASD.

DeletedAcct

Wow, I never thought the question of click or wasd would become a heated discussion over twitch/non-twitch gaming. However, from the post here I have become inclined to believe that the best option would be to offer a choice between the two control styles. For the record, one of my main beefs with point to click comes from being attacked from behind by a 2nd monster while in a fight with the first and when I hurriedly try to click on the second monster to attack, I invariably click a micron short of the mobs avatar and begin running to someplace on the map that my cursor apparently clicked on all the while being attacked and killed while trying to correct my action. As for twitch/non-twitch, I think I'll stay out of that one for now.

apocalance

Every game I've tried where there's point and click required movement, I've usually found that I would rather have keyboard keys to move.

Azathoth

---

Originally posted by Novaseeker
Twitch games are not appropriate for RPGs.

In an RPG the player input is in deciding what you want your character to do ... whether your character can do it well depends on the character's skills, and not the player's skills.  The character in an RPG is not merely the extension of the player, as is the case in an FPS, for example.  Importing so-called "player skill" ideas into an RPG is totally inappropriate and guts the entire idea of a character-based game, which is the essence of a roleplaying game to begin with.

---

I disagree.  Games progress.  PnC is just outdated, period.  If you're a purist, I suggest sticking to pen and paper entirely.  Moving into computer-based RPGs, things do become an extension of the actual player, whether you like it or not.

Heck, even pen and paper RPG chars are an extension of the player.  The PLAYER makes the decisions, period.  Even if it's the DM.  These decisions are made based on the player's experience, which can, in a way equate to skills.  I know it's a reach, but it's true.

Not to metion, I remember when I was playing pen and paper, and I became an extension of my character in an unusual way.  It's called a fist fight.  Myself and another member of my party got pissed at eachother and threw down.  We were only 12, but it was interesting, and in the end a laugh.

nomadian

Korean games are more point and click. Legend of Ares apparently altered their system to be WASD in response to the Western preference. Ferentus I think is good as it has both, though default is point/click. Some point/clicks can be ok though, Warcraft 3 Dota mod is quite fun even as point/click.

Knightblast

---

Originally posted by Azathoth

Heck, even pen and paper RPG chars are an extension of the player.  The PLAYER makes the decisions, period.  Even if it's the DM.  These decisions are made based on the player's experience, which can, in a way equate to skills.  I know it's a reach, but it's true.

---

Ahh, but that is the essence of a RPG.

Look at what I wrote above:  the player decides what he wants the character to do, but the character's abilities determine whether the character can succeed at the task.  If the player is smarter and has a good idea, there isn't anything non-RPG about that at all, because regardless of the good idea, if the player's character does not have the skills to pull it off, it won't work ... and that's how an RPG works.  The more that gets invaded and watered down by twitch controls, the more diluted the RPG aspect of the game becomes.