Originally posted by fixif @ damian7 go to mmogchart.com and then say if the raiding games are past
or i can look around at my group of friends. all of which i play ball with, party with, play online games with and have over for bbqs.
*hey, want to spend all weekend raiding for a couple of purples?*
"um, are you stupid or did you just lose your life?"
*neither, it'll be a blast man~!!"
"yeah, that's on my list right below cutting off and eating at least two of my fingers - raw."
pretty sure i don't need mmogchart.com to tell me what i feel and think, where my money and leisure time are spent or where the money/leisure time of people i hang out with are spent.
games that are innovative (eve, horizons, shadowbane, ryzom, even ULTIMA ONLINE), are ones that, more and more, are getting the attention and love of my clique. are we unique? are we special? are we spectacularly innovative and creative compared to the rest of the online community?
or, are we a typical sampling of the 20something-30something crowd (which pays the bills for many an MMO), which is fed up with console games and the boring, unchallenging, farmable end games which a number of MMOs offer?
i would LOVE to believe that my clique is an elite group of supra geniuses. but then i'll think about the time i saw one of the guys chew off a piece of toenail. or maybe the time when someone dropped a cooked hamburger patty in the dirt, dusted it off and put it on his bun. now, i'm not saying i hang out with retards; but, we've a mix of jocks and extremely computer literate folks in our group.
so, just from hanging out and talking about games and fun with my friends, i already see a big change in everyone's attitude from a year ago, or from 2-4 years ago. raiding is craptastic in the extreme. i'm going to spend dozens of hours to get items that let me look like every other person who's wasted a few months of weekends (or hours every single night) FARMING the same boring instance a bazillion times?
give me fun over the purple loot that adds +5 to my str instead of ONLY the +4 i get off the blue item, ANY day of the year.
the wives and girlfriends got tired of it WAY before the guys did. so that's another player sampling i have access to which leads to the "this is incredibly boring and stupid" supposition.
but hey, everyone is entitled to their own OCDs. live and kill the weak and stupidly moronic, i mean live and let live, i always say.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Well you probably do need a chart if you think raiding games are a thing of the past. WOW currently is up to 6.5 million active subs. Which would tend to show ...raiding games are even bigger than they have been in thepast. How you feel and what is actually happening are 2 different things. The tiny little sampling group of superior beings you happen to be in doesnt appear to be the majority unfortunately.
Of course Im with ya..........Id rather just play than raid for 4+ straight hours any day. And then only to do again and again and again.
I'm not sure why people are creating these complaining threads. I can tell you the story line of Warcraft is older than your daughter. You can't say its a rip off of any other game because its one the the first best sellers. Blizzard just added some features from Warcraft to make it into an RPG, actually an MMORPG. The point is even if it is taking this "raiding" idea from Warhammer, I don't believe Warhammer is out yet or hasn't been, and WoW has been out for how long now? Year and a half? Why do people even bother arguing about WoW? Its just a game. If you don't like it find something else or get a life.
Originally posted by Bama1267 Well you probably do need a chart if you think raiding games are a thing of the past. WOW currently is up to 6.5 million active subs. Which would tend to show ...raiding games are even bigger than they have been in thepast. How you feel and what is actually happening are 2 different things. The tiny little sampling group of superior beings you happen to be in doesnt appear to be the majority unfortunately. Of course Im with ya..........Id rather just play than raid for 4+ straight hours any day. And then only to do again and again and again.
read around, even ardent supporters of raiding games are becoming more and more vocal about the stupidity of raiding.
5.6 million subs. those numbers are impressive.
well, kinda.
how many are third world gold farmers? wow's economy is built towards promoting gold farmers (both domestic and abroad).
how many are blizznet (or the equivalent) kiddies? how many are doing this because their console game got boring? how many have to get permission to stay up late, or are sneaking to play late? how many are only doing the boring stuff on the weekends (cuz they can stay up late and no school next day). give me the % of under 13, under 16, under 18, under 21, under 30, under 40. i don't want to play with 5million+ basement dwellers and children.
how many are spoiled rich kids that play twice a month because they have active subs to a dozen+ mmos? how many are older folks who, instead of having 6 subs to one game, have since spread out their 6 subs to 6 different MMOs? again, only occasionally signing in.
how long have those subs been active? how many have been disco'd and then reactivated? how many disco'd and reactivated multiple times?
do these charts take into account any of these pertinent factors? i keep seeing people say that there's never more than 5% of the people online that are in raids at any given time and the 5% is the max. how does that say *hey we love raiding games*? wouldn't the numbers be much higher? i mean, there ARE enough raids so that you can be in a raid every night on the same toon right? if not, i'm sure raiders have more than one 60 and between two 60s, they could easily be in a raid every night, right?
where's the statistics which show how large a percentage of each player's game time is spent raiding? if someone is only playing up to level 60 and then making a new toon, how is that in support of a raiding environ?
do the charts break down ANY of this information? if not, then how are they relevant in the SLIGHTEST?
because someone plays wow does NOT mean they EVER raid, doesn't even mean they hit the baron on a semi-regular basis. do these charts elaborate into all this sort of information? if not, then they do NOT support anyone saying "oh raids kick butt, they're growing in popularity". in fact, from a lot of people i game with and talk to, friends of friends of friends, they play games like wow IN SPITE OF stupidity like raids and garbage-level crafting and inflated prices because of the crap crafting + gold farmers.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by Siltharious I'm not sure why people are creating these complaining threads. I can tell you the story line of Warcraft is older than your daughter. You can't say its a rip off of any other game because its one the the first best sellers. Blizzard just added some features from Warcraft to make it into an RPG, actually an MMORPG. The point is even if it is taking this "raiding" idea from Warhammer, I don't believe Warhammer is out yet or hasn't been, and WoW has been out for how long now? Year and a half? Why do people even bother arguing about WoW? Its just a game. If you don't like it find something else or get a life.
Just another annoying thread solved.
warhammer was out years before blizzard starting ripping off ideas to create starcraft and the warcraft games. warhammer is played offline with miniatures. swykac
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Some of you guys simply need to come to terms with the fact that a lot of people like to raid ... a LOT. I don't much care for it myself anymore - just had my fill of it, quite possibly because I was also one of the 3-4 people who were running the huge guild at the time and the work just wore me out - but I know a heck of a lot of people who still love it after years of doing it. Bottom line, the fact that you don't enjoy something doesn't mean it sucks. It's simply different tastes in entertainment. Just let other people like what they like without feeling the need to put them down for it.
People who think raiding is only about getting uber items generally burn out fast, if they ever raid at all. If that's all it was it would be a rather shallow experience. In truth, most people who love to raid love it primarily because they enjoy the social aspects of it and the coordination of large groups to take on big challenges - an experience which is all but impossible for most people to obtain in their real lives. I enjoyed those aspects myself - it just got to the point for me that I wasn't willing to put the time in anymore. There ain't no way around it - raiding does take a significant commitment of time. But there really isn't anything like it in gaming.
Regardless of how you want to spin it, the undeniable reality is that the number of games which provide raiding as a major element is on the increase. More and more people who have not raided are being drawn into the raiding game, and the usual percentage will enjoy it and want to continue. Quite frankly, I am surprised how big raiding has become. Personally I would prefer more of other activities in mmorpgs. But it's pretty clear that a large portion of the marketplace loves raiding, and thus it will undoubtedly continue to grow. In any event, I never have any trouble finding the things I enjoy, so it's all good. I don't worry about what other people like - that's up to them.
Originally posted by Wickes Some of you guys simply need to come to terms with the fact that a lot of people like to raid ... a LOT. I don't much care for it myself anymore - just had my fill of it, quite possibly because I was also one of the 3-4 people who were running the huge guild at the time and the work just wore me out - but I know a heck of a lot of people who still love it after years of doing it. Bottom line, the fact that you don't enjoy something doesn't mean it sucks. It's simply different tastes in entertainment. Just let other people like what they like without feeling the need to put them down for it. People who think raiding is only about getting uber items generally burn out fast, if they ever raid at all. If that's all it was it would be a rather shallow experience. In truth, most people who love to raid love it primarily because they enjoy the social aspects of it and the coordination of large groups to take on big challenges - an experience which is all but impossible for most people to obtain in their real lives. I enjoyed those aspects myself - it just got to the point for me that I wasn't willing to put the time in anymore. There ain't no way around it - raiding does take a significant commitment of time. But there really isn't anything like it in gaming. Regardless of how you want to spin it, the undeniable reality is that the number of games which provide raiding as a major element is on the increase. More and more people who have not raided are being drawn into the raiding game, and the usual percentage will enjoy it and want to continue. Quite frankly, I am surprised how big raiding has become. Personally I would prefer more of other activities in mmorpgs. But it's pretty clear that a large portion of the marketplace loves raiding, and thus it will undoubtedly continue to grow. In any event, I never have any trouble finding the things I enjoy, so it's all good. I don't worry about what other people like - that's up to them.
large groups to take on big challenges. o, i think i'd like that. but since when is something farmable a challenge? by definition, it can't be both. raids are farmable. therefore raids are not challenging. MAYBE they're a challenge the first time or two; then that ends and they are now farmable.
a lot of things you're posting are well, superfluous hyperbole. i can just as easily say that the number of people eating waffles instead of pancakes is on the rise. and i've shown as much justification to support my statement as you have yours.
and i think if someone doesn't enjoy something then that does mean it sucks. if a bunch of people don't enjoy something, that means it sucks a lot. 5% max server populations raiding does not equal "hey everyone loves this part of the game", it sort of means the opposite - "hey only a very small portion of the people playing actually raid... i wonder how much of that small portion ENJOY raiding".
there's been a number of posts about the lack of community and why making a statement like "raiding is a social thing and it builds community", is just nonsensical.
but hey, swyfac, that's all man.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
And that is why the games continue to bring out more and more difficult raids - because the raiders like increasingly difficult challenges. As for farming, most often that's simply helping your friends and guildmates get the equipment they want and need to progress the game. Sure, doing the same raid over and over can become a bit boring, but then every single thing in these games is repetitive. Without reasons to do these activities, they're all tedious. You can do them because you enjoy them, because you want to advance, to hang out with friends, or for any other purpose I suppose. Maybe you simply want to make some cash to buy something you want or need. What's the difference. If it isn't fun, don't do it, but do others the courtesy of leaving them in peace. If people view raids simply as helping their friends and guildmates, and, of course, themselves, it's fun. If people view it as work, it isn't. But it's amazing how the most tedious activity can be great fun if you're laughing and joking with friends while you do it.
Your 5% business is simply wishful thinking. For some reason you want or need to believe that most people think as you do. Go for it, if you must. But the numbers are out there. The demand for more and more raids is continual and increasing. People don't buy games and expansions and pay subscriptions for nothing.
And no, lol, if a bunch of people don't enjoy something that doesn't mean it sucks or any such thing. Nobody died and made you king of good taste. It simply means they don't enjoy it. Live and let live. I'm sure there will continue to be plenty of raiding activities and plenty of non-raiding activities.
Originally posted by Wickes And that is why the games continue to bring out more and more difficult raids - because the raiders like increasingly difficult challenges. As for farming, most often that's simply helping your friends and guildmates get the equipment they want and need to progress the game. Sure, doing the same raid over and over can become a bit boring, but then every single thing in these games is repetitive. Without reasons to do these activities, they're all tedious. You can do them because you enjoy them, because you want to advance, to hang out with friends, or for any other purpose I suppose. Maybe you simply want to make some cash to buy something you want or need. What's the difference. If it isn't fun, don't do it, but do others the courtesy of leaving them in peace. If people view raids simply as helping their friends and guildmates, and, of course, themselves, it's fun. If people view it as work, it isn't. But it's amazing how the most tedious activity can be great fun if you're laughing and joking with friends while you do it. Your 5% business is simply wishful thinking. For some reason you want or need to believe that most people think as you do. Go for it, if you must. But the numbers are out there. The demand for more and more raids is continual and increasing. People don't buy games and expansions and pay subscriptions for nothing. And no, lol, if a bunch of people don't enjoy something that doesn't mean it sucks or any such thing. Nobody died and made you king of good taste. It simply means they don't enjoy it. Live and let live. I'm sure there will continue to be plenty of raiding activities and plenty of non-raiding activities.
there is no logic behind your arguments. i believe that blizzard itself has come out and given that 5% number. but you're sitting here saying that something is challenging AND farmable in the same breath. or insinuating that after ONLY a few visits that any one toon will be completely outfitted??? farming is so that everyone can work up on their DKP totals in order to bid on the next purp for their set. farming is not challenging. a raid instance is challenging for the first few times a guild does it (or until another guild does it and publishes the easy way to get thru the raid which is the exact same every time). you're just making assumptions about what people do/don't want. actual numbers prove most all your thoughts wrong in this post. so lol all the way to the bank, nobody made you king of um, well logical or sensical thinking, at least today.
which expansion has ONLY offered raid content and not new races, new classes, new skills, new craftables, new other things? i'm curious, since the demand is so great for new raid environs, your statements seem to lend credence to the fact that these 30+ man raiding dungeons are the only business out there. i'm pretty sure 3 of the 4 "new" things i mentioned just then have been in just about every EQ expansion. eq being the father of the atrocity called raiding.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Bah, lol, you didn't even read what I wrote. Or you simply want to evade it. Either way it ain't worth my time to respond on the same points you didn't read last time
There's no "argument" anyway. Anyone can plainly see what the situation is. You just don't like it. If you're right, all the companies will stop making raiding games. But, of course, they won't. They ain't stupid.
I have a simple approach to this: if I am enjoying something, I continue doing it. If I am not, I stop. It ain't like there's nothing else in life to do anyway. Try it
Originally posted by Wickes Bah, lol, you didn't even read what I wrote. Or you simply want to evade it. Either way it ain't worth my time to respond on the same points you didn't read last time There's no "argument" anyway. Anyone can plainly see what the situation is. You just don't like it. If you're right, all the companies will stop making raiding games. But, of course, they won't. They ain't stupid. I have a simple approach to this: if I am enjoying something, I continue doing it. If I am not, I stop. It ain't like there's nothing else in life to do anyway. Try it
i countered most of your points with logical statements and corrected fiction with fact, but i didn't read your post. ok, um, i honestly don' t know how to respond to something like that. other than to make a note that you're either a liar or delusional.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by damian7 Originally posted by Bama1267 Well you probably do need a chart if you think raiding games are a thing of the past. WOW currently is up to 6.5 million active subs. Which would tend to show ...raiding games are even bigger than they have been in thepast. How you feel and what is actually happening are 2 different things. The tiny little sampling group of superior beings you happen to be in doesnt appear to be the majority unfortunately. Of course Im with ya..........Id rather just play than raid for 4+ straight hours any day. And then only to do again and again and again.
read around, even ardent supporters of raiding games are becoming more and more vocal about the stupidity of raiding.
5.6 million subs. those numbers are impressive.
well, kinda.
how many are third world gold farmers? wow's economy is built towards promoting gold farmers (both domestic and abroad).
how many are blizznet (or the equivalent) kiddies? how many are doing this because their console game got boring? how many have to get permission to stay up late, or are sneaking to play late? how many are only doing the boring stuff on the weekends (cuz they can stay up late and no school next day). give me the % of under 13, under 16, under 18, under 21, under 30, under 40. i don't want to play with 5million+ basement dwellers and children.
how many are spoiled rich kids that play twice a month because they have active subs to a dozen+ mmos? how many are older folks who, instead of having 6 subs to one game, have since spread out their 6 subs to 6 different MMOs? again, only occasionally signing in.
how long have those subs been active? how many have been disco'd and then reactivated? how many disco'd and reactivated multiple times?
do these charts take into account any of these pertinent factors? i keep seeing people say that there's never more than 5% of the people online that are in raids at any given time and the 5% is the max. how does that say *hey we love raiding games*? wouldn't the numbers be much higher? i mean, there ARE enough raids so that you can be in a raid every night on the same toon right? if not, i'm sure raiders have more than one 60 and between two 60s, they could easily be in a raid every night, right?
where's the statistics which show how large a percentage of each player's game time is spent raiding? if someone is only playing up to level 60 and then making a new toon, how is that in support of a raiding environ?
do the charts break down ANY of this information? if not, then how are they relevant in the SLIGHTEST?
because someone plays wow does NOT mean they EVER raid, doesn't even mean they hit the baron on a semi-regular basis. do these charts elaborate into all this sort of information? if not, then they do NOT support anyone saying "oh raids kick butt, they're growing in popularity". in fact, from a lot of people i game with and talk to, friends of friends of friends, they play games like wow IN SPITE OF stupidity like raids and garbage-level crafting and inflated prices because of the crap crafting + gold farmers.
You still fail to realize how far ahead 6.5 million is ahead of the whole gaming community. You can probably take the top 10 mmorpg's and not eclipse wow's active subscriber base. It really doesnt matter what % of the people in the game choose to raid........they are all part of the system. A type of game you say is a thing of the past, doesnt appear to be. As far as 3rd world farmers as you call them.....not sure China is a 3rd world country bud....but even if those so called farmers were 75% of the community...WOW would still have more REAL customers than almost any game out there minus Lineage 2.
I mean I never said all 6.5 million people raid.........I just countered your argument that this type of game is a thing of the past. It is oviously far from it. And when the expansion comes out.....people will buy it too...so raiding games are far from over. Id rather not raid like I said and I agree most probably would rther spend there time in another way other than a raid......but its selling and it definately isnt the end .
You still fail to realize how far ahead 6.5 million is ahead of the whole gaming community. You can probably take the top 10 mmorpg's and not eclipse wow's active subscriber base. It really doesnt matter what % of the people in the game choose to raid........they are all part of the system. A type of game you say is a thing of the past, doesnt appear to be. As far as 3rd world farmers as you call them.....not sure China is a 3rd world country bud....but even if those so called farmers were 75% of the community...WOW would still have more REAL customers than almost any game out there minus Lineage 2. I mean I never said all 6.5 million people raid.........I just countered your argument that this type of game is a thing of the past. It is oviously far from it. And when the expansion comes out.....people will buy it too...so raiding games are far from over. Id rather not raid like I said and I agree most probably would rther spend there time in another way other than a raid......but its selling and it definately isnt the end .
you actually typed that if 6.3 million subscribers DON'T raid or enjoy raiding, then because 0.2 million of the 6.5 million subscribers will have the voice to ruin the game for the rest of the population? you're suggesting that a game company will just continue to alienate the majority of their playerbase AND continue to have a game? well a game company other than SOE.
wow... just wow.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I don't recall Blizzard ever claiming that they did anything innovative with WoW. Blizzard's goal was to implement what they believed to be the best elements from several prior and current games.
Perhaps they did innovate a little when they managed to make a reasonably stable mmo. ^_^
As for raiding games disappearing, I can't really imagine that happening any time soon. Raiding isn't a new concept in WoW, and yet with all the literature you can find on WoW, sales continue to grow. Also, one of the more anticipated upcoming mmos is Vanguard (no small amount of raiding there).
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Originally posted by Gameloading The game is fun. this is where loads of other MMo's fail fail. WoW never claimed to do anything new. instead they took everything good of other MMO's and improved it. another groundbreaking fact.there is no such thing as a mmo that is hard to play. everquest doesn't require skill, Daoc doesn't require skill, NEVER EvER has an mmo required skill. WoW is just darn easy to learn, thats why your daughter understood it. aww you don't like the end raid game? well thats too bad..especialy because its like every other mmo there, but because wow is so popular, it suddenly deserves to be bashed. if you think it doesn't offer nothing new to the mmo genré, then go play another game. WoW NEVER claimed to do that. its like buying a normal car then suddenly complain it can't fly.
You're saying no MMOs require skill these days? May I introduce you to Guild Wars, the only MMO out right now that is completely "skill based" and depends more on skill than time played. Please do some research the next time you try to talk about this kind of thing.
Originally posted by Fenrir767 Ya but Blizzard promised us something. A game that was fun with good pvp and open for everyone. Instead we got raidfest 2006 fuckers.
in their defense, it's open (and fun) to everyone up to level 60, at level 60 you get the raidfest. pvp is fun, if you like raiding. and raiding is fun, if you have no life outside of wow. so if you treat it like coh/cov and the fun in the game is GETTING to the max level, then you can do like cox and just keep making new toons once you hit max level. of course, cox has about 30 times the variety in character types (or classes if you will) and a few hundred times the choices of viable end game builds. sooooo, maybe make one character, get it to 60 and try another game?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by damian7 Originally posted by Fenrir767 Ya but Blizzard promised us something. A game that was fun with good pvp and open for everyone. Instead we got raidfest 2006 fuckers.
in their defense, it's open (and fun) to everyone up to level 60, at level 60 you get the raidfest. pvp is fun, if you like raiding. and raiding is fun, if you have no life outside of wow. so if you treat it like coh/cov and the fun in the game is GETTING to the max level, then you can do like cox and just keep making new toons once you hit max level. of course, cox has about 30 times the variety in character types (or classes if you will) and a few hundred times the choices of viable end game builds. sooooo, maybe make one character, get it to 60 and try another game?
Got to agree here.If WoW is not a raidfest then heck knows what is.
Coming to think about it which game involves or demands as much raiding at end game as WoW that been released in last 18 months?
None!So the raidfest fuckers of 2005/06 is actually WoW.Again i agree with both posters there but just have to add that they took the title for 2005 too.
Getting to 60 in WoW is fun and no big deal,how you remain at some degree of viability espically on pvp is very dependant on you raiding.
What blizzard has that is worth more then any content is undying loyality .
Originally posted by paranoidpvp Originally posted by Gameloading The game is fun. this is where loads of other MMo's fail fail. WoW never claimed to do anything new. instead they took everything good of other MMO's and improved it. another groundbreaking fact.there is no such thing as a mmo that is hard to play. everquest doesn't require skill, Daoc doesn't require skill, NEVER EvER has an mmo required skill. WoW is just darn easy to learn, thats why your daughter understood it. aww you don't like the end raid game? well thats too bad..especialy because its like every other mmo there, but because wow is so popular, it suddenly deserves to be bashed. if you think it doesn't offer nothing new to the mmo genré, then go play another game. WoW NEVER claimed to do that. its like buying a normal car then suddenly complain it can't fly.
You're saying no MMOs require skill these days? May I introduce you to Guild Wars, the only MMO out right now that is completely "skill based" and depends more on skill than time played. Please do some research the next time you try to talk about this kind of thing. Exactly mate. Do some research first. Guild Wars is NOT an mmorpg. Even the developers have said this, at is is/was listed at their site. and even IF guild wars was an mmorpg, then you really don't need skills to play the game, you only need skills, or knowledge really, for pvp.
and I quote: "Despite what you may have heard or read, Guild wars is not an MMORPG, it is an online game but with a key difference. You join the game and congregate with thousands of players on the same server and meet/socialise with them in special zones."
so "Please do some research the next time you try to talk about this kind of thing"
Originally posted by Gameloading Originally posted by paranoidpvp Originally posted by Gameloading The game is fun. this is where loads of other MMo's fail fail. WoW never claimed to do anything new. instead they took everything good of other MMO's and improved it. another groundbreaking fact.there is no such thing as a mmo that is hard to play. everquest doesn't require skill, Daoc doesn't require skill, NEVER EvER has an mmo required skill. WoW is just darn easy to learn, thats why your daughter understood it. aww you don't like the end raid game? well thats too bad..especialy because its like every other mmo there, but because wow is so popular, it suddenly deserves to be bashed. if you think it doesn't offer nothing new to the mmo genré, then go play another game. WoW NEVER claimed to do that. its like buying a normal car then suddenly complain it can't fly.
You're saying no MMOs require skill these days? May I introduce you to Guild Wars, the only MMO out right now that is completely "skill based" and depends more on skill than time played. Please do some research the next time you try to talk about this kind of thing. Exactly mate. Do some research first. Guild Wars is NOT an mmorpg. Even the developers have said this, at is is/was listed at their site. and even IF guild wars was an mmorpg, then you really don't need skills to play the game, you only need skills, or knowledge really, for pvp.
and I quote: "Despite what you may have heard or read, Guild wars is not an MMORPG, it is an online game but with a key difference. You join the game and congregate with thousands of players on the same server and meet/socialise with them in special zones."
so "Please do some research the next time you try to talk about this kind of thing"
what makes it not an rpg?
if it's just people saying it's not; well, wow, eq, eq2, and quite a few other games aren't rpgs either. they can CLAIM to be rpgs, but um, yeah, look at chat, look at the worlds. it's got fantasy characters and fantasy weapons/armors. is it not an rpg because it doesn't have raids/instances/big dungeons?
in the quote where dude says it's not an rpg, his next sentence defines a community, it doesn't disprove that a game is/isn't an rpg. people meet/socialize in raid zones. matter of fact, socializing is the reason that the raid supporters say is the reason raids are so great -- you socialize and build a community.
i read what was quoted/pasted. so i'm asking WHAT makes it not an rpg and just an mmo. notice, i'm following a line of thought. don't flame stupidly. i can say, you're not human. does that make you an alien blue guy pew pew pewing in a space ship all of a sudden?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
What blizzard has that is worth more then any content is undying loyality .
blizznet and diablo fans that don't realize that blizzard and blizzard north were NOT the same group of guys.
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Originally posted by paranoidpvp Originally posted by Gameloading The game is fun. this is where loads of other MMo's fail fail. WoW never claimed to do anything new. instead they took everything good of other MMO's and improved it. another groundbreaking fact.there is no such thing as a mmo that is hard to play. everquest doesn't require skill, Daoc doesn't require skill, NEVER EvER has an mmo required skill. WoW is just darn easy to learn, thats why your daughter understood it. aww you don't like the end raid game? well thats too bad..especialy because its like every other mmo there, but because wow is so popular, it suddenly deserves to be bashed. if you think it doesn't offer nothing new to the mmo genré, then go play another game. WoW NEVER claimed to do that. its like buying a normal car then suddenly complain it can't fly.
You're saying no MMOs require skill these days? May I introduce you to Guild Wars, the only MMO out right now that is completely "skill based" and depends more on skill than time played. Please do some research the next time you try to talk about this kind of thing. Guild Wars requiers skill? best joke so far...GW is all about Organization...just organization...MMO dont need that amount of skill..u dont have to type as hell ( except if u are one of 4 healers in MC raid ) ....FPS-s and RTS requires skill...i played everything i mentioned here ( GW,WoW,SC,War3:TFT,UT,CS) still playing WoW
________________________________ Aggramar-LvL 60 Night Elf priest Norddrasill-LvL 10 Orc warlock-i want do some damage too
Comments
*hey, want to spend all weekend raiding for a couple of purples?*
"um, are you stupid or did you just lose your life?"
*neither, it'll be a blast man~!!"
"yeah, that's on my list right below cutting off and eating at least two of my fingers - raw."
pretty sure i don't need mmogchart.com to tell me what i feel and think, where my money and leisure time are spent or where the money/leisure time of people i hang out with are spent.
games that are innovative (eve, horizons, shadowbane, ryzom, even ULTIMA ONLINE), are ones that, more and more, are getting the attention and love of my clique. are we unique? are we special? are we spectacularly innovative and creative compared to the rest of the online community?
or, are we a typical sampling of the 20something-30something crowd (which pays the bills for many an MMO), which is fed up with console games and the boring, unchallenging, farmable end games which a number of MMOs offer?
i would LOVE to believe that my clique is an elite group of supra geniuses. but then i'll think about the time i saw one of the guys chew off a piece of toenail. or maybe the time when someone dropped a cooked hamburger patty in the dirt, dusted it off and put it on his bun. now, i'm not saying i hang out with retards; but, we've a mix of jocks and extremely computer literate folks in our group.
so, just from hanging out and talking about games and fun with my friends, i already see a big change in everyone's attitude from a year ago, or from 2-4 years ago. raiding is craptastic in the extreme. i'm going to spend dozens of hours to get items that let me look like every other person who's wasted a few months of weekends (or hours every single night) FARMING the same boring instance a bazillion times?
give me fun over the purple loot that adds +5 to my str instead of ONLY the +4 i get off the blue item, ANY day of the year.
the wives and girlfriends got tired of it WAY before the guys did. so that's another player sampling i have access to which leads to the "this is incredibly boring and stupid" supposition.
but hey, everyone is entitled to their own OCDs. live and kill the weak and stupidly moronic, i mean live and let live, i always say.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Well you probably do need a chart if you think raiding games are a thing of the past. WOW currently is up to 6.5 million active subs. Which would tend to show ...raiding games are even bigger than they have been in thepast. How you feel and what is actually happening are 2 different things. The tiny little sampling group of superior beings you happen to be in doesnt appear to be the majority unfortunately.
Of course Im with ya..........Id rather just play than raid for 4+ straight hours any day. And then only to do again and again and again.
I'm not sure why people are creating these complaining threads. I can tell you the story line of Warcraft is older than your daughter. You can't say its a rip off of any other game because its one the the first best sellers. Blizzard just added some features from Warcraft to make it into an RPG, actually an MMORPG. The point is even if it is taking this "raiding" idea from Warhammer, I don't believe Warhammer is out yet or hasn't been, and WoW has been out for how long now? Year and a half? Why do people even bother arguing about WoW? Its just a game. If you don't like it find something else or get a life.
Just another annoying thread solved.
Who asked you.
read around, even ardent supporters of raiding games are becoming more and more vocal about the stupidity of raiding.
5.6 million subs. those numbers are impressive.
well, kinda.
how many are third world gold farmers? wow's economy is built towards promoting gold farmers (both domestic and abroad).
how many are blizznet (or the equivalent) kiddies? how many are doing this because their console game got boring? how many have to get permission to stay up late, or are sneaking to play late? how many are only doing the boring stuff on the weekends (cuz they can stay up late and no school next day). give me the % of under 13, under 16, under 18, under 21, under 30, under 40. i don't want to play with 5million+ basement dwellers and children.
how many are spoiled rich kids that play twice a month because they have active subs to a dozen+ mmos? how many are older folks who, instead of having 6 subs to one game, have since spread out their 6 subs to 6 different MMOs? again, only occasionally signing in.
how long have those subs been active? how many have been disco'd and then reactivated? how many disco'd and reactivated multiple times?
do these charts take into account any of these pertinent factors? i keep seeing people say that there's never more than 5% of the people online that are in raids at any given time and the 5% is the max. how does that say *hey we love raiding games*? wouldn't the numbers be much higher? i mean, there ARE enough raids so that you can be in a raid every night on the same toon right? if not, i'm sure raiders have more than one 60 and between two 60s, they could easily be in a raid every night, right?
where's the statistics which show how large a percentage of each player's game time is spent raiding? if someone is only playing up to level 60 and then making a new toon, how is that in support of a raiding environ?
do the charts break down ANY of this information? if not, then how are they relevant in the SLIGHTEST?
because someone plays wow does NOT mean they EVER raid, doesn't even mean they hit the baron on a semi-regular basis. do these charts elaborate into all this sort of information? if not, then they do NOT support anyone saying "oh raids kick butt, they're growing in popularity". in fact, from a lot of people i game with and talk to, friends of friends of friends, they play games like wow IN SPITE OF stupidity like raids and garbage-level crafting and inflated prices because of the crap crafting + gold farmers.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Some of you guys simply need to come to terms with the fact that a lot of people like to raid ... a LOT. I don't much care for it myself anymore - just had my fill of it, quite possibly because I was also one of the 3-4 people who were running the huge guild at the time and the work just wore me out - but I know a heck of a lot of people who still love it after years of doing it. Bottom line, the fact that you don't enjoy something doesn't mean it sucks. It's simply different tastes in entertainment. Just let other people like what they like without feeling the need to put them down for it.
People who think raiding is only about getting uber items generally burn out fast, if they ever raid at all. If that's all it was it would be a rather shallow experience. In truth, most people who love to raid love it primarily because they enjoy the social aspects of it and the coordination of large groups to take on big challenges - an experience which is all but impossible for most people to obtain in their real lives. I enjoyed those aspects myself - it just got to the point for me that I wasn't willing to put the time in anymore. There ain't no way around it - raiding does take a significant commitment of time. But there really isn't anything like it in gaming.
Regardless of how you want to spin it, the undeniable reality is that the number of games which provide raiding as a major element is on the increase. More and more people who have not raided are being drawn into the raiding game, and the usual percentage will enjoy it and want to continue. Quite frankly, I am surprised how big raiding has become. Personally I would prefer more of other activities in mmorpgs. But it's pretty clear that a large portion of the marketplace loves raiding, and thus it will undoubtedly continue to grow. In any event, I never have any trouble finding the things I enjoy, so it's all good. I don't worry about what other people like - that's up to them.
a lot of things you're posting are well, superfluous hyperbole. i can just as easily say that the number of people eating waffles instead of pancakes is on the rise. and i've shown as much justification to support my statement as you have yours.
and i think if someone doesn't enjoy something then that does mean it sucks. if a bunch of people don't enjoy something, that means it sucks a lot. 5% max server populations raiding does not equal "hey everyone loves this part of the game", it sort of means the opposite - "hey only a very small portion of the people playing actually raid... i wonder how much of that small portion ENJOY raiding".
there's been a number of posts about the lack of community and why making a statement like "raiding is a social thing and it builds community", is just nonsensical.
but hey, swyfac, that's all man.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
And that is why the games continue to bring out more and more difficult raids - because the raiders like increasingly difficult challenges. As for farming, most often that's simply helping your friends and guildmates get the equipment they want and need to progress the game. Sure, doing the same raid over and over can become a bit boring, but then every single thing in these games is repetitive. Without reasons to do these activities, they're all tedious. You can do them because you enjoy them, because you want to advance, to hang out with friends, or for any other purpose I suppose. Maybe you simply want to make some cash to buy something you want or need. What's the difference. If it isn't fun, don't do it, but do others the courtesy of leaving them in peace. If people view raids simply as helping their friends and guildmates, and, of course, themselves, it's fun. If people view it as work, it isn't. But it's amazing how the most tedious activity can be great fun if you're laughing and joking with friends while you do it.
Your 5% business is simply wishful thinking. For some reason you want or need to believe that most people think as you do. Go for it, if you must. But the numbers are out there. The demand for more and more raids is continual and increasing. People don't buy games and expansions and pay subscriptions for nothing.
And no, lol, if a bunch of people don't enjoy something that doesn't mean it sucks or any such thing. Nobody died and made you king of good taste. It simply means they don't enjoy it. Live and let live. I'm sure there will continue to be plenty of raiding activities and plenty of non-raiding activities.
which expansion has ONLY offered raid content and not new races, new classes, new skills, new craftables, new other things? i'm curious, since the demand is so great for new raid environs, your statements seem to lend credence to the fact that these 30+ man raiding dungeons are the only business out there. i'm pretty sure 3 of the 4 "new" things i mentioned just then have been in just about every EQ expansion. eq being the father of the atrocity called raiding.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Bah, lol, you didn't even read what I wrote. Or you simply want to evade it. Either way it ain't worth my time to respond on the same points you didn't read last time
There's no "argument" anyway. Anyone can plainly see what the situation is. You just don't like it. If you're right, all the companies will stop making raiding games. But, of course, they won't. They ain't stupid.
I have a simple approach to this: if I am enjoying something, I continue doing it. If I am not, I stop. It ain't like there's nothing else in life to do anyway. Try it
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
read around, even ardent supporters of raiding games are becoming more and more vocal about the stupidity of raiding.
5.6 million subs. those numbers are impressive.
well, kinda.
how many are third world gold farmers? wow's economy is built towards promoting gold farmers (both domestic and abroad).
how many are blizznet (or the equivalent) kiddies? how many are doing this because their console game got boring? how many have to get permission to stay up late, or are sneaking to play late? how many are only doing the boring stuff on the weekends (cuz they can stay up late and no school next day). give me the % of under 13, under 16, under 18, under 21, under 30, under 40. i don't want to play with 5million+ basement dwellers and children.
how many are spoiled rich kids that play twice a month because they have active subs to a dozen+ mmos? how many are older folks who, instead of having 6 subs to one game, have since spread out their 6 subs to 6 different MMOs? again, only occasionally signing in.
how long have those subs been active? how many have been disco'd and then reactivated? how many disco'd and reactivated multiple times?
do these charts take into account any of these pertinent factors? i keep seeing people say that there's never more than 5% of the people online that are in raids at any given time and the 5% is the max. how does that say *hey we love raiding games*? wouldn't the numbers be much higher? i mean, there ARE enough raids so that you can be in a raid every night on the same toon right? if not, i'm sure raiders have more than one 60 and between two 60s, they could easily be in a raid every night, right?
where's the statistics which show how large a percentage of each player's game time is spent raiding? if someone is only playing up to level 60 and then making a new toon, how is that in support of a raiding environ?
do the charts break down ANY of this information? if not, then how are they relevant in the SLIGHTEST?
because someone plays wow does NOT mean they EVER raid, doesn't even mean they hit the baron on a semi-regular basis. do these charts elaborate into all this sort of information? if not, then they do NOT support anyone saying "oh raids kick butt, they're growing in popularity". in fact, from a lot of people i game with and talk to, friends of friends of friends, they play games like wow IN SPITE OF stupidity like raids and garbage-level crafting and inflated prices because of the crap crafting + gold farmers.
You still fail to realize how far ahead 6.5 million is ahead of the whole gaming community. You can probably take the top 10 mmorpg's and not eclipse wow's active subscriber base. It really doesnt matter what % of the people in the game choose to raid........they are all part of the system. A type of game you say is a thing of the past, doesnt appear to be. As far as 3rd world farmers as you call them.....not sure China is a 3rd world country bud....but even if those so called farmers were 75% of the community...WOW would still have more REAL customers than almost any game out there minus Lineage 2.
I mean I never said all 6.5 million people raid.........I just countered your argument that this type of game is a thing of the past. It is oviously far from it. And when the expansion comes out.....people will buy it too...so raiding games are far from over. Id rather not raid like I said and I agree most probably would rther spend there time in another way other than a raid......but its selling and it definately isnt the end .
you actually typed that if 6.3 million subscribers DON'T raid or enjoy raiding, then because 0.2 million of the 6.5 million subscribers will have the voice to ruin the game for the rest of the population? you're suggesting that a game company will just continue to alienate the majority of their playerbase AND continue to have a game? well a game company other than SOE.
wow... just wow.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I don't recall Blizzard ever claiming that they did anything innovative with WoW. Blizzard's goal was to implement what they believed to be the best elements from several prior and current games.
Perhaps they did innovate a little when they managed to make a reasonably stable mmo. ^_^
As for raiding games disappearing, I can't really imagine that happening any time soon. Raiding isn't a new concept in WoW, and yet with all the literature you can find on WoW, sales continue to grow. Also, one of the more anticipated upcoming mmos is Vanguard (no small amount of raiding there).
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
#we_care @ Qnet
Hf
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Got to agree here.If WoW is not a raidfest then heck knows what is.
Coming to think about it which game involves or demands as much raiding at end game as WoW that been released in last 18 months?
None!So the raidfest fuckers of 2005/06 is actually WoW.Again i agree with both posters there but just have to add that they took the title for 2005 too.
Getting to 60 in WoW is fun and no big deal,how you remain at some degree of viability espically on pvp is very dependant on you raiding.
What blizzard has that is worth more then any content is undying loyality .
Exactly mate. Do some research first. Guild Wars is NOT an mmorpg. Even the developers have said this, at is is/was listed at their site. and even IF guild wars was an mmorpg, then you really don't need skills to play the game, you only need skills, or knowledge really, for pvp.
you can also read this at diffrent fansites. such as:
http://www.gwonline.net/page.php?p=65
and I quote:
"Despite what
you may have heard or read, Guild wars is not an MMORPG, it is an online game
but with a key difference. You join the game and congregate with thousands of
players on the same server and meet/socialise with them in special zones."
so "Please do some research the next time you try to talk about this kind of thing"
Exactly mate. Do some research first. Guild Wars is NOT an mmorpg. Even the developers have said this, at is is/was listed at their site. and even IF guild wars was an mmorpg, then you really don't need skills to play the game, you only need skills, or knowledge really, for pvp.
you can also read this at diffrent fansites. such as:
http://www.gwonline.net/page.php?p=65
and I quote:
"Despite what
you may have heard or read, Guild wars is not an MMORPG, it is an online game
but with a key difference. You join the game and congregate with thousands of
players on the same server and meet/socialise with them in special zones."
so "Please do some research the next time you try to talk about this kind of thing"
what makes it not an rpg?
if it's just people saying it's not; well, wow, eq, eq2, and quite a few other games aren't rpgs either. they can CLAIM to be rpgs, but um, yeah, look at chat, look at the worlds. it's got fantasy characters and fantasy weapons/armors. is it not an rpg because it doesn't have raids/instances/big dungeons?
in the quote where dude says it's not an rpg, his next sentence defines a community, it doesn't disprove that a game is/isn't an rpg. people meet/socialize in raid zones. matter of fact, socializing is the reason that the raid supporters say is the reason raids are so great -- you socialize and build a community.
i read what was quoted/pasted. so i'm asking WHAT makes it not an rpg and just an mmo. notice, i'm following a line of thought. don't flame stupidly. i can say, you're not human. does that make you an alien blue guy pew pew pewing in a space ship all of a sudden?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
What blizzard has that is worth more then any content is undying loyality .
blizznet and diablo fans that don't realize that blizzard and blizzard north were NOT the same group of guys.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Guild Wars requiers skill? best joke so far...GW is all about Organization...just organization...MMO dont need that amount of skill..u dont have to type as hell ( except if u are one of 4 healers in MC raid ) ....FPS-s and RTS requires skill...i played everything i mentioned here ( GW,WoW,SC,War3:TFT,UT,CS)
still playing WoW
________________________________
Aggramar-LvL 60 Night Elf priest
Norddrasill-LvL 10 Orc warlock-i want do some damage too