I HAD to save that part, hehe. Seriously though, if you're defending me I need to rethink my position!
My WHOLE point was that as it stands, nothing has been determined to be Illegal yet. Does that mean it won't be? I don't think so, but I'm not the law. Heck, anyone who knows anything about how crazy our Judicial system is will tell you that you can always be surprised...
We'll find out, but until then, making Opinionated Statements is Good-Form; making Absolute Statements is Ignorance...
Well you are right, I cant argue with that. Differences/arguments/standoffs or whatever you want to call them dont change fact from fiction in my eyes. One of your strongest points is the Judical issue. Anything can happen in these courts....and I mean anything. You can have ten tons of evidence stacked up against you, along with a shitty defense, but as long as you have that big wallet and classy lawyer, youll end the day at the top of the mountain. /cough O.J
Me personally, I think the emulator will be shutdown EVENTUALLY via unknown reasons. It could be legal, money, technical, or SoE opens live classic's. Ive just gone over and examined the basics and the entire Intelectual Property things for the US and Slovakia ( one of the if not the suposed sites of the emu servers) as well as state law as you know, ive posted the links to the INTERPOL site several times. There is lot of information there that goes this way, that way, north, south, east, west, over your head, everywhere. There are steel walls in one spot, and loopholes in others, its just to hard to know if the damn thing is illegal or legal period.
But as of right now its apparently legal, theyve posted alot of evidence that this thing is real in the past few weeks, and they seem to be getting away with it. So in other words im admiting I was wrong about the emulator project and I accept defeat.
"There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now." Boba Fett
Originally posted by Elnator I've said this before and I'll say it again. This isn't a typical "it's just an MMORPG" it's tied to an internationallyl recognized IP and License. If they stand this up it isn't going to be SOE who gets them shut down. It'll be LEC. And if you honestly think any country in the world is going to fail to recognize a MOVIE lP License from a name as big as LucasArts you need to seek help, fast.
They may get it working. But IF they do... and IF they can find someone with enough money to host an SWG cluster (remember 1 cluster handles about oh... 5k users... max) they will still have to deal with the IP rights they're infringing on. Unless they take EVERY reference to Star Wars or any of the main characters out of the game. LEC has shut down tons of non-profit fan sites for posting images or any other kind of content that violates their IP.... this won't be any different.
There's a reason why there are no EQ EMU servers out there even though there's a fully functional EMU for it: they get shut down almost as fast as they come online (well ok there's 1 right now but it's gonna get shut down soon too). They can't do anything about the development of SWGEMU because, right now, it's not violating their IP. The second they start up a server and attempt to host players on it LEC will come down on them like the hammers of hell.
i thought they we're just reverse engineering it, then releasing the open source. what would be the legal arguments from both sides there? if anyone with any knowledge of the law would care to speculate.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
i thought they we're just reverse engineering it, then releasing the open source. what would be the legal arguments from both sides there? if anyone with any knowledge of the law would care to speculate.
I have limited General Legal experience, but I do have Legal / RE experience.
By the nature of RE'ing, they are not RE'ing server Code, they are actually "writing" it. What they are doing is taking the packets of data sent to and from the server and client, and reading them to see how the communicate. They are then taking that information and building code that can communicate with the client. It's extreamly complicated, but not as difficult as most would think. If you know that A says X to B, then B says Y to A, then to figure out how B comes to that action is the goal. A TON of the information is in the client, and the "conversations" are in the packets.
RE'ing is completely Legal unless you are violating a national security order. I know this form personal experience. Is it more complex than that? Sure, but that's the basic law. As long as you don't steal code, you can make something that has the same properties. Think of it this way: How many Tax Software Suites are there? They all do the same thing, they all use the same rules, but they are all writen differently, they just try to reach the same goal. Not an exact comparison, but close enough.
Now, there are MANY Legal arguements once you hit CREATING servers, but there are almost none leading up to it.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
Originally posted by kaibigan34 I know everyone excited about the new video from SWGEMU. I am as well but a few things to consider here.
1. We dont know how long this is going to take. Yes they have managed to emulate a server but still this is a small step. It may take months and even years to finish it.
2. It could be fake. I am not saying it is so please dont start flaming me. I think its genuine too. But dont forget there were once videos and screenies taken by people who figured out how to load into SWG without going to a server.
3. If it does succeed there is still going to be the issue of who will be allowed to play and who wont. Again not saying these guys arent stand up people but I have seen people take something and turn it into an elitest situation completely by accident. This causes alot more problems then you think.
4. SOE is in fact scared. There is no way to deny it. What do people do when they are scared? They are unpredictable. Corporations are the same. Eventhough they dont have a leg to stand on in court, since they pretty much gave the EMU team permission, they can still hold it up in courts for years before ever even speaking to a judge. Getting a cease and desist order until the outcome of the case isnt that hard to do.
What I am trying to say here gang is lets not get our hopes up too high. It is great news but always remember "There is many a slip between a cup and a lip.".
Kai
Points 1-3 are solid. They haven't given the EMU team permission, nothing even remotely considered legally binding. They aren't scared. At most less than 1,000 people will most likely play, out of (at even the most biased numbers), SWG has around 50-75k. They aren't worried, nor should they be. If it ended up getting successful, they'd just either buy em out or shut em down. Much as I don't like saying it, SOE has absolutely nothing to be worried about, at least from the EMU area. Many other places, now that's a different story.
Originally posted by maxanto I dont know intellectual property law all that well, but I would assume just because someone hacked SOE or LA for their code does not make it open source.
Open source is software that was written specifically to be shared with the world for free. I do not think SOE or LA ever made that software as OS.
Honestly I do not think I would trust an EMU server. Who ever runs it will have all the power to do what ever they want. Imagine playing on that server for a year and pissing off a friend of the server OP. The next time you log in everything you own is gone and your character is back to noob status.
Not to mention I doubt who ever is gonna run one of these will have the means to be able to defend themselves in a very prolonged court battle. Lawyers are very expensive. Even if they are right LA and SOE will make it very difficult and extremly expensive to do this, just watch.
Besides what else do you think they do with all their money? Improve their games? LOL
btw here is a link to the official OS website: http://www.opensource.org You will notice it doesn't mention SWG at all in there lol. Yea SWG server and client code is NOT open source.
I believe Wildcat84 was using the word "open source" as a reference to the Emulator code being made public. The same was done with EQ and WoW and by it becoming available to the public at large - both made leaps and bounds in the realms of improvement and emulation. The Emu code isn't SOE's server code but rather a program to utilize the components in a way that makes the game files operable. The creators of this code can make it public and thus "open sourced". Using names or SOE creatd files would be the sticking point. EQ is a great example of this. Damn those spell text files...
Originally posted by MX13 Originally posted by Elnator I've said this before and I'll say it again. This isn't a typical "it's just an MMORPG" it's tied to an internationallyl recognized IP and License. If they stand this up it isn't going to be SOE who gets them shut down. It'll be LEC. And if you honestly think any country in the world is going to fail to recognize a MOVIE lP License from a name as big as LucasArts you need to seek help, fast.
They may get it working. But IF they do... and IF they can find someone with enough money to host an SWG cluster (remember 1 cluster handles about oh... 5k users... max) they will still have to deal with the IP rights they're infringing on. Unless they take EVERY reference to Star Wars or any of the main characters out of the game. LEC has shut down tons of non-profit fan sites for posting images or any other kind of content that violates their IP.... this won't be any different.
There's a reason why there are no EQ EMU servers out there even though there's a fully functional EMU for it: they get shut down almost as fast as they come online (well ok there's 1 right now but it's gonna get shut down soon too). They can't do anything about the development of SWGEMU because, right now, it's not violating their IP. The second they start up a server and attempt to host players on it LEC will come down on them like the hammers of hell.
The arguement against this is easy: You already bought the game, so there is NO theft. And it will win.
ALL of the Art is on your machine, not on the Server, and the names & referances are not protected if they are not sold, or used to generate profit, that's established precident.
LEC/SOE have no case, quite literally, unless someone related to the EMU starts giving away SWG for people to play the EMU, and that would be just stupid.
EDIT: Oh, and I agree, they will sue. That's their REAL power... to finacially punish anyone who starts a server...
The fact that you purchased it, there are certain issues of intellectual property. Once you purchase it, you have to abide by certain rules to play the game. If you don't, you are guilty of copyright infringement. Which is what the EMU is. Considering almost all marks of the Star Wars franchise are copyrighted and trademarked, to use them against the permission of LA gets you in trouble. And they've already gone after people doing it on the web, an emu will be no different.
People tried arguing the way you did when it came to napster and downloading music, and the courts rejected their argumentation, staying it was still copyright infringement and a violation of their intellectual property.
Originally posted by Cola Originally posted by Rekrul Originally posted by Cola
Kinda like SOE, huh?
SWG is running for 3 years now, providing consistent gameplay to 100k+ players.
If there's an emu provider that can match their level of competence, they will have achieved something. But looking at big picture: Just because you made a homepage about ninjas, doesn't mean yahoo is trembling. It's not about knowing HTML. As a matter of fact, providing a service has absolutely nothing to do with code.
Ask yourself this. With all the in-game bugs, which are numerous, how come their servers hardly ever crash. After all, you can encounter a bug in a matter of seconds in game. How come their servers don't crash that frequently?
Providing consistent gameplay? The NGE is a completely different game from pre cu, even cu
Level of competence? SOE? lol do I need to say more?
SOE has not provided consistent gameplay and their level of competence is in serious doubt by many many ppl. Not just Online Gamers but as far as Stock Holders as well.
And just to touch up on this. If they would of provided consistent gameplay and showed a high level of competence.........none of us would be on this topic at all.
Legally no it's not. It is still Star Wars Galaxies. They reserve the right to make changes, no matter how gawd-awful stupid. It is consistent gameplay in that as rekrul noted, their servers don't crash, and they've been running for 3 years. If their competence is in doubt, the market soon enough will decide that. Until then, this discussion is pointless.
Originally posted by MX13 Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi
i thought they we're just reverse engineering it, then releasing the open source. what would be the legal arguments from both sides there? if anyone with any knowledge of the law would care to speculate.
I have limited General Legal experience, but I do have Legal / RE experience.
By the nature of RE'ing, they are not RE'ing server Code, they are actually "writing" it. What they are doing is taking the packets of data sent to and from the server and client, and reading them to see how the communicate. They are then taking that information and building code that can communicate with the client. It's extreamly complicated, but not as difficult as most would think. If you know that A says X to B, then B says Y to A, then to figure out how B comes to that action is the goal. A TON of the information is in the client, and the "conversations" are in the packets.
RE'ing is completely Legal unless you are violating a national security order. I know this form personal experience. Is it more complex than that? Sure, but that's the basic law. As long as you don't steal code, you can make something that has the same properties. Think of it this way: How many Tax Software Suites are there? They all do the same thing, they all use the same rules, but they are all writen differently, they just try to reach the same goal. Not an exact comparison, but close enough.
Now, there are MANY Legal arguements once you hit CREATING servers, but there are almost none leading up to it.
Whats your opinion on the emu being for a game that is not identicle to the game now. How would that be argued for or against or is that a moot point in your opinion?
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
EULA's have been challeneged in court (US-Federal 8th Circuit Court of Appeales St. Louis, MO), with the most recent that I can think of was dealing with WoW / Blizzard.. I am using the EULA because most state you cannot do what the EMU guys are doing, and as such is used as the primary basis for the lawsuits.
You can also Yahoo search for this... Not only did it set a precedent it defined the Digital Milleniumj Copyright Act, passed by congress at the behest of compaines. The other problem was the judge stated it trumped the Federal Fair Use Law, which the Bnet people cited as their defense.
Unless im missing something this would be the case that is going to be cited when SOE files their legal issues. Depending on where the EMU people are will determine the outcome... If they are outside the US, International Law is gonna come up (and as far as I am concerned Intl. Law is a firggin mess). If they are outside the 8th circuit then they will be ok until this case is cited as precedent and reaffirmed by whatever appelate division has it.
You can find more on the EULA and how crappy they are here:
Having access to a billion $ IP - Billions of dollars.. Having access to a massive fan base of said IP - Even more Billons... Singly handedly alienating them due to stupidity - Priceless.
Originally posted by kaibigan34 2. It could be fake. I am not saying it is so please dont start flaming me. I think its genuine too. But dont forget there were once videos and screenies taken by people who figured out how to load into SWG without going to a server. I'd go over why it's not fake, but it would bore people to death. And after the video, it's clear that it's not. Oh, come on, throw us a bone. And while you're at it, explain why you think it is anything other than a hacked client running on a single machine, as opposed to a client interacting with a working server.
4. SOE is in fact scared. There is no way to deny it. What do people do when they are scared? They are unpredictable. Corporations are the same. Eventhough they dont have a leg to stand on in court, since they pretty much gave the EMU team permission, they can still hold it up in courts for years before ever even speaking to a judge. Getting a cease and desist order until the outcome of the case isnt that hard to do. There's no legal way they can hold it up. They can make the SWGEMU's peoples lives hell, but they can't stop the EMU.
LEC can sue them, get a restraining order, have their possessions seized, and possibly even have them arrested and imprisoned or fined heavily. Theoretically, they can do the same to any person who download and plays the Emu, in much the same way that record companies can go after people who download pirated MP3s. Copyright infringement is a crime in most civilized countries, so unless they are operating out of a cave in Afghanistan, the developers of the Emu can get in serious trouble for what they have done. Of course, prosecuting these people beyond shutting them down would be a public relations nightmare for LEC. They'd be better off funding them, providing server hardware and bandwidth, and collecting subscription fees for the emu when it is ready.
____________________________________________ im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
I have limited General Legal experience, but I do have Legal / RE experience.
By the nature of RE'ing, they are not RE'ing server Code, they are actually "writing" it. What they are doing is taking the packets of data sent to and from the server and client, and reading them to see how the communicate. They are then taking that information and building code that can communicate with the client. It's extreamly complicated, but not as difficult as most would think. If you know that A says X to B, then B says Y to A, then to figure out how B comes to that action is the goal. A TON of the information is in the client, and the "conversations" are in the packets.
RE'ing is completely Legal unless you are violating a national security order. I know this form personal experience. Is it more complex than that? Sure, but that's the basic law. As long as you don't steal code, you can make something that has the same properties. Think of it this way: How many Tax Software Suites are there? They all do the same thing, they all use the same rules, but they are all writen differently, they just try to reach the same goal. Not an exact comparison, but close enough.
Now, there are MANY Legal arguements once you hit CREATING servers, but there are almost none leading up to it.
False comparison. THose are not interchangable. You can not take a file from Company A's and use it in Company B's software. The end result is the same but the not process, so they are what is called a reflective similar.
Reverse engineering is illegal in all forms in software because it involves the first step of modifying either the client or the server software. You determine the server response to data from the client my modding the client to control what data is sent. You then artifically (aka do something not allowed in the original client) to control what data is sent to the server in order to read the response. Then decrypting the data packets to read the server's responses is another legal violation.
If you want to discuss the general an obvious law applications on the SWGEMU then EVERY piece of content that is on a SWGEMU server is breaking copyright. How? well they are not referencing someone else's work, nor using a likeness they are blatently using someone elses visual creatino without permission to represent data.
Again to even let a client interface with SWGEMU the client has to be either modded, which is illegal since you do not own the code, or the server has to send data to mimic being a legit server, which has already been given the precident of fraud. Now not only are the SWGEMU creators violating the law, but the home user is also.
Dream all you want but SWGEMU is blatantly illegal.
Sure, someone could create a program that operates similar to the old SWG enviroment legally. They could mimic game play usign their own coding and create they own client, but that isn't what they have done.
Originally posted by rikilii Originally posted by MX13
Originally posted by kaibigan34
4. SOE is in fact scared. There is no way to deny it. What do people do when they are scared? They are unpredictable. Corporations are the same. Eventhough they dont have a leg to stand on in court, since they pretty much gave the EMU team permission, they can still hold it up in courts for years before ever even speaking to a judge. Getting a cease and desist order until the outcome of the case isnt that hard to do. There's no legal way they can hold it up. They can make the SWGEMU's peoples lives hell, but they can't stop the EMU.
LEC can sue them, get a restraining order, have their possessions seized, and possibly even have them arrested and imprisoned or fined heavily. Theoretically, they can do the same to any person who download and plays the Emu, in much the same way that record companies can go after people who download pirated MP3s. Copyright infringement is a crime in most civilized countries, so unless they are operating out of a cave in Afghanistan, the developers of the Emu can get in serious trouble for what they have done. Of course, prosecuting these people beyond shutting them down would be a public relations nightmare for LEC. They'd be better off funding them, providing server hardware and bandwidth, and collecting subscription fees for the emu when it is ready. No, SOE and Lucasarts will not be able to win in a court case of any kind. Because Smedley, the president of the company currently holding the LICENSE to this particular game told them to try. Even went so far as to say he would hire them if they pulled it off. LEC can sue SOE for mishandling the license. And would probably win. But they can NOT sue the Emu team and win. Because SOE holds the license, and they gave them permission.
Not only that but LEC already tried suing certain people for making DM maps and models for other games that represented characters and scenes from the Star Wars movies. They were told quite plainly that its similiar to fanart and as long as the people involved dont try to charge a fee, they cant do squat to them.
Oh and the RIAA is NOT a government entity. They have ZERO legal powers. They use bullying tactics and borderline extortion to get cases won. I know this because I got a letter from them once a few years ago. They told me I was being sued and that I had to go california to appear in court. My attorney sent them a quick letter telling them their proper legal rights and I havent heard from them since. And, by the by, no case was ever filed against me.
Originally posted by Vyava Originally posted by MX13 I have limited General Legal experience, but I do have Legal / RE experience. By the nature of RE'ing, they are not RE'ing server Code, they are actually "writing" it. What they are doing is taking the packets of data sent to and from the server and client, and reading them to see how the communicate. They are then taking that information and building code that can communicate with the client. It's extreamly complicated, but not as difficult as most would think. If you know that A says X to B, then B says Y to A, then to figure out how B comes to that action is the goal. A TON of the information is in the client, and the "conversations" are in the packets. RE'ing is completely Legal unless you are violating a national security order. I know this form personal experience. Is it more complex than that? Sure, but that's the basic law. As long as you don't steal code, you can make something that has the same properties. Think of it this way: How many Tax Software Suites are there? They all do the same thing, they all use the same rules, but they are all writen differently, they just try to reach the same goal. Not an exact comparison, but close enough. Now, there are MANY Legal arguements once you hit CREATING servers, but there are almost none leading up to it.
False comparison. THose are not interchangable. You can not take a file from Company A's and use it in Company B's software. The end result is the same but the not process, so they are what is called a reflective similar.
Reverse engineering is illegal in all forms in software because it involves the first step of modifying either the client or the server software. You determine the server response to data from the client my modding the client to control what data is sent. You then artifically (aka do something not allowed in the original client) to control what data is sent to the server in order to read the response. Then decrypting the data packets to read the server's responses is another legal violation.
If you want to discuss the general an obvious law applications on the SWGEMU then EVERY piece of content that is on a SWGEMU server is breaking copyright. How? well they are not referencing someone else's work, nor using a likeness they are blatently using someone elses visual creatino without permission to represent data.
Again to even let a client interface with SWGEMU the client has to be either modded, which is illegal since you do not own the code, or the server has to send data to mimic being a legit server, which has already been given the precident of fraud. Now not only are the SWGEMU creators violating the law, but the home user is also.
Dream all you want but SWGEMU is blatantly illegal.
Sure, someone could create a program that operates similar to the old SWG enviroment legally. They could mimic game play usign their own coding and create they own client, but that isn't what they have done.
Company X owns the IP. Company Y bought the license. Company Z uses the product. Company Z is told by Company Y they can do what they want with the product. So Company Z does things that violates common IP laws with Company X. However Company X cant sue Company Z because Z didnt hold the license. Company Y did. So Company X sues Company Y since Company Y gave Company Z permission to do what they want. Company Y could sue Company Z however they gave them permission.
Welcome to world of laws. A complete CF anyway you look at it.
Originally posted by maxanto Originally posted by Wildcat84 The code is going to be released open source. Once it's out there, it's out there, period, and no lawsuit can stop it.
Remember the MPAA and DeCSS (the reversing of the DVD digitial restrictions management)? Despite the fact the MPAA got it stopped in court, it's still out there and easy to obtain.
And it is needed to watch DvD's on my Linux box.
I dont know intellectual property law all that well, but I would assume just because someone hacked SOE or LA for their code does not make it open source.
Open source is software that was written specifically to be shared with the world for free. I do not think SOE or LA ever made that software as OS.
Honestly I do not think I would trust an EMU server. Who ever runs it will have all the power to do what ever they want. Imagine playing on that server for a year and pissing off a friend of the server OP. The next time you log in everything you own is gone and your character is back to noob status.
Not to mention I doubt who ever is gonna run one of these will have the means to be able to defend themselves in a very prolonged court battle. Lawyers are very expensive. Even if they are right LA and SOE will make it very difficult and extremly expensive to do this, just watch.
Besides what else do you think they do with all their money? Improve their games? LOL
btw here is a link to the official OS website: http://www.opensource.org You will notice it doesn't mention SWG at all in there lol. Yea SWG server and client code is NOT open source.
The EMU code was not made by hacking SOE code its made by reverse engineering the code therefore SWGEMU is not SWG it is a seperate product which does similar things therefore its not illegal. LEC/SOE cannot do anything about the EMU but if people start playing on the EMU's with illegal clients i.e downloaded via bit torrent they they are violating a few laws and can i think be taken to court over it. So for the EMU to succeed you need to use legit copies of SWG to play on the EMU servers. Also they cannot charge you to play on the servers as long as they remain non-profit they should be safe donations I think are ok.
Water cooled Intel Corei7 920 D0 Stepping OC'd 4.3GHz - 6GB Corsair Dominator GT RAM 2000Mhz - ASUS RAGE II EXTREME X58 Mobo - 2x HD 5870 in Crossfire X, OC'd 0.9Ghz core 1.3Ghz RAM - Dell 2407WFP Flat Panel LCD 24" 1920x1200
The EMU code was not made by hacking SOE code its made by reverse engineering the code therefore SWGEMU is not SWG it is a seperate product which does similar things therefore its not illegal. LEC/SOE cannot do anything about the EMU but if people start playing on the EMU's with illegal clients i.e downloaded via bit torrent they they are violating a few laws and can i think be taken to court over it. So for the EMU to succeed you need to use legit copies of SWG to play on the EMU servers. Also they cannot charge you to play on the servers as long as they remain non-profit they should be safe donations I think are ok.
You do know, that it's no longer possible to obtain publish 12 client (swgclient_r.exe)?
You can get all the other files, but not the executable. So where will emu players get it? I'm sure there are several players out there, that still have this exact version, but they are once again not allowed to distribute it.
Originally posted by Rekrul Originally posted by Wildcat84 The code is going to be released open source. Once it's out there, it's out there, period, and no lawsuit can stop it.
Remember the MPAA and DeCSS (the reversing of the DVD digitial restrictions management)? Despite the fact the MPAA got it stopped in court, it's still out there and easy to obtain.
And it is needed to watch DvD's on my Linux box.
And it doesn't matter.
Next generation of operating systems will provide support for hardware enforced DRM. Linux will be a target for that as well, and on many ocasions Linus himself aknowledged the need for such mechanisms.
A dvd costs less than $0.5 per unit to produce and distribute. How much do you pay for it?
This is a false idea , and an overly used one . Yes the plastic comes cheap , But you are not paying for the plastic . You are paying for the artists/Developers work . Not to mention production costs in the millions for a videogame . Add on developer/artist/renderer salleries . Marketing , Sound enginering , Music compostion/rights etc. .
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The fact that you purchased it, there are certain issues of intellectual property. Once you purchase it, you have to abide by certain rules to play the game. If you don't, you are guilty of copyright infringement. Which is what the EMU is. Considering almost all marks of the Star Wars franchise are copyrighted and trademarked, to use them against the permission of LA gets you in trouble. And they've already gone after people doing it on the web, an emu will be no different.
People tried arguing the way you did when it came to napster and downloading music, and the courts rejected their argumentation, staying it was still copyright infringement and a violation of their intellectual property.
Napster was theft, this is not. You've bought the game. The NApster arguements were nothing like this.
I won't get into why I believe this, but you are Definatly NOT violating Copyright & Trademark laws. You would have to be publicly distributing the game to do that. If you are using it for personal use, and you PAY for it, you can do pretty much what you like with your client. The second you distribute it, you're breaking the law.
Look at it this way: If you buy CoD2 and load it with hacks, you're breaking the EULA but you're NOT breaking one law. You have completely altered the software for personal use, but that doesn't make it illegal. And as far as Copyright & Trademark laws, you have to Violate them by distributing them.
I could buy 50 of those 12 inch Han Solo figures, stick Barbie heads on them, alter the packaging to call them Barb Wars & give them out to 50 people and there is NOTHING LEC could do. If I sold them, I MAY be able to get away with it, but it would be difficult...
These laws people keep quoting (no flame intended) are no where near as covering as people think they are. I DO know that from personal experience.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
Originally posted by Vyava Originally posted by MX13
I have limited General Legal experience, but I do have Legal / RE experience.
Think of it this way: How many Tax Software Suites are there? They all do the same thing, they all use the same rules, but they are all writen differently, they just try to reach the same goal. Not an exact comparison, but close enough.
False comparison. THose are not interchangable. You can not take a file from Company A's and use it in Company B's software. The end result is the same but the not process, so they are what is called a reflective similar.
Reverse engineering is illegal in all forms in software because it involves the first step of modifying either the client or the server software.
Actually, they are. You can load company A's file with company B's software... You can actually import past filings and untied companies files (Quicken) as well.
This is completely false. This is what my company fights EVERY day, I know what I'm talking about, even if you don't believe me. There are several software developers at this moment trying to reverse Engineer our Propriatry software, and it is legal & long as the do NOT vilolate any Patents.
Do a Web search, you'll find a ton of companies who will do this for you for a price.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
FOr those late comers to this thread who dont want to read it all.
People speculate on lawsuits interjecting opinions and thoughts of which none of them make any difference on the current situation.
A few of the highllights.
EMU's suck.
LA Will sue
SOE will sue.
EMu's will live on in slovkia
I wiil sue you all (my thoughts)
EMu's got permission from soe
Emu's gms are the suck
I think I covered this topic?
About the only informative post I read was about an eq emu and how its been run and comparing it to how they view swgemu's future.
Current status: EMU is in development and making good progress.
That is all that matters. Any other debate is just your useless opinions on copyright laws and IP laws which last I checked wasn't worth the bytes used to store the post with.
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
4. SOE is in fact scared. There is no way to deny it. What do people do when they are scared? They are unpredictable. Corporations are the same. Eventhough they dont have a leg to stand on in court, since they pretty much gave the EMU team permission, they can still hold it up in courts for years before ever even speaking to a judge. Getting a cease and desist order until the outcome of the case isnt that hard to do. There's no legal way they can hold it up. They can make the SWGEMU's peoples lives hell, but they can't stop the EMU.
LEC can sue them, get a restraining order, have their possessions seized, and possibly even have them arrested and imprisoned or fined heavily. Theoretically, they can do the same to any person who download and plays the Emu, in much the same way that record companies can go after people who download pirated MP3s. Copyright infringement is a crime in most civilized countries, so unless they are operating out of a cave in Afghanistan, the developers of the Emu can get in serious trouble for what they have done. Of course, prosecuting these people beyond shutting them down would be a public relations nightmare for LEC. They'd be better off funding them, providing server hardware and bandwidth, and collecting subscription fees for the emu when it is ready. No, SOE and Lucasarts will not be able to win in a court case of any kind. Because Smedley, the president of the company currently holding the LICENSE to this particular game told them to try. Even went so far as to say he would hire them if they pulled it off. LEC can sue SOE for mishandling the license. And would probably win. But they can NOT sue the Emu team and win. Because SOE holds the license, and they gave them permission.
Not only that but LEC already tried suing certain people for making DM maps and models for other games that represented characters and scenes from the Star Wars movies. They were told quite plainly that its similiar to fanart and as long as the people involved dont try to charge a fee, they cant do squat to them.
Oh and the RIAA is NOT a government entity. They have ZERO legal powers. They use bullying tactics and borderline extortion to get cases won. I know this because I got a letter from them once a few years ago. They told me I was being sued and that I had to go california to appear in court. My attorney sent them a quick letter telling them their proper legal rights and I havent heard from them since. And, by the by, no case was ever filed against me.
Kai
Kai
Kai
Smedlley most certainly does not have the right to give them permission. Just because SOE has a license from LEC to do certain things with Star Wars material, doesn't mean they have the right to sublicense it to anyone they want. In fact, I'd be shocked if the agreement didn't contain a very strict limitation on the right of SOE to delegate its rights.
As far as the RIAA is concerned, you are sadly mistaken. It doesn't matter that they are not a governmental entity. They have rights just like anyone else, and can use the courts to enforce those rights if you infringe them. If you really got off as easily as you said, it's most likely that they did not want to sue you in a jurisdication near where you live, or simply because they'd prefer not to bother with people who are smart enought to get lawyers. There's plenty of other fish in the sea that are easier targets, and the whole thing was about scaring people into obeying the law. That doesn't mean they couldn't have gone after you to the full extent of the law if they really wanted to.
I'd love to see the court opinion that said LEC can't enforce it's rights against people in other games. Even if there really is one, however, this situation is different from what you described. We're not talking about people adding features to a game they already paid for. Every player who uses the EMU is potentially a player not paying for an SWG subscription.
____________________________________________ im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
Originally posted by haxxjoo Current status: EMU is in development and making good progress. If you call a hacked client "good progress," more power to you. That is all that matters. Any other debate is just your useless opinions on copyright laws and IP laws which last I checked wasn't worth the bytes used to store the post with. You never know, some of us might actually BE IP lawyers. Some of us might even work in the LEC legal department. All I know, is that a lot of people are getting their hopes up for a lot of nothing. The best we can expect out of this is that it will serve as a wakeup call to LEC and SOE.
____________________________________________ im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
Originally posted by rikilii Smedlley most certainly does not have the right to give them permission. Just because SOE has a license from LEC to do certain things with Star Wars material, doesn't mean they have the right to sublicense it to anyone they want. In fact, I'd be shocked if the agreement didn't contain a very strict limitation on the right of SOE to delegate its rights. You must have some special powers to know what a contract says and who has rights to what. QUick I wrote down a number on a piece of paper in michigan can you guess it for me? As far as the RIAA is concerned, you are sadly mistaken. It doesn't matter that they are not a governmental entity. They have rights just like anyone else, and can use the courts to enforce those rights if you infringe them. If you really got off as easily as you said, it's most likely that they did not want to sue you in a jurisdication near where you live, or simply because they'd prefer not to bother with people who are smart enought to get lawyers. There's plenty of other fish in the sea that are easier targets, and the whole thing was about scaring people into obeying the law. That doesn't mean they couldn't have gone after you to the full extent of the law if they really wanted to. You work for RIAA's legal department too? Physic, mind reading abilities pwn. Man I am amazed and the depth of your legal argument on how RIAA operates. I'd love to see the court opinion that said LEC can't enforce it's rights against people in other games. Even if there really is one, however, this situation is different from what you described. We're not talking about people adding features to a game they already paid for. Every player who uses the EMU is potentially a player not paying for an SWG subscription. How about a tennis court? Your argument here is just so logical and thought out I cannot help but totally agree that if I found a court, even if there really was one the situation is different so your argument wins. Wow am I enthusiastic today about the internet and people posting in its spaces.
To summarize the previous poster. He wins. He is right. Your wrong. Dont bother making any points or examples cause it wouldn't apply to "his" situation. Plus he is physic and can read things with his mind just be knowing a contact exists.
Originally posted by haxxjoo Originally posted by rikilii Smedlley most certainly does not have the right to give them permission. Just because SOE has a license from LEC to do certain things with Star Wars material, doesn't mean they have the right to sublicense it to anyone they want. In fact, I'd be shocked if the agreement didn't contain a very strict limitation on the right of SOE to delegate its rights. You must have some special powers to know what a contract says and who has rights to what. QUick I wrote down a number on a piece of paper in michigan can you guess it for me? As far as the RIAA is concerned, you are sadly mistaken. It doesn't matter that they are not a governmental entity. They have rights just like anyone else, and can use the courts to enforce those rights if you infringe them. If you really got off as easily as you said, it's most likely that they did not want to sue you in a jurisdication near where you live, or simply because they'd prefer not to bother with people who are smart enought to get lawyers. There's plenty of other fish in the sea that are easier targets, and the whole thing was about scaring people into obeying the law. That doesn't mean they couldn't have gone after you to the full extent of the law if they really wanted to. You work for RIAA's legal department too? Physic, mind reading abilities pwn. Man I am amazed and the depth of your legal argument on how RIAA operates. I'd love to see the court opinion that said LEC can't enforce it's rights against people in other games. Even if there really is one, however, this situation is different from what you described. We're not talking about people adding features to a game they already paid for. Every player who uses the EMU is potentially a player not paying for an SWG subscription. How about a tennis court? Your argument here is just so logical and thought out I cannot help but totally agree that if I found a court, even if there really was one the situation is different so your argument wins. Wow am I enthusiastic today about the internet and people posting in its spaces.
To summarize the previous poster. He wins. He is right. Your wrong. Dont bother making any points or examples cause it wouldn't apply to "his" situation. Plus he is physic and can read things with his mind just be knowing a contact exists.
Say what you want, but if the guy's wrong, he's wrong. He made a lot of unsubstantiated claims, none of which really make any sense if you have even the remotest understanding of IP law.
If you think he's so correct, please help me find any evidence that he knows what he's talking about.
____________________________________________ im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
Comments
I HAD to save that part, hehe.
Seriously though, if you're defending me I need to rethink my position! 
My WHOLE point was that as it stands, nothing has been determined to be Illegal yet. Does that mean it won't be? I don't think so, but I'm not the law. Heck, anyone who knows anything about how crazy our Judicial system is will tell you that you can always be surprised...
We'll find out, but until then, making Opinionated Statements is Good-Form; making Absolute Statements is Ignorance...
Well you are right, I cant argue with that. Differences/arguments/standoffs or whatever you want to call them dont change fact from fiction in my eyes. One of your strongest points is the Judical issue. Anything can happen in these courts....and I mean anything. You can have ten tons of evidence stacked up against you, along with a shitty defense, but as long as you have that big wallet and classy lawyer, youll end the day at the top of the mountain. /cough O.J
Me personally, I think the emulator will be shutdown EVENTUALLY via unknown reasons. It could be legal, money, technical, or SoE opens live classic's. Ive just gone over and examined the basics and the entire Intelectual Property things for the US and Slovakia ( one of the if not the suposed sites of the emu servers) as well as state law as you know, ive posted the links to the INTERPOL site several times. There is lot of information there that goes this way, that way, north, south, east, west, over your head, everywhere. There are steel walls in one spot, and loopholes in others, its just to hard to know if the damn thing is illegal or legal period.
But as of right now its apparently legal, theyve posted alot of evidence that this thing is real in the past few weeks, and they seem to be getting away with it. So in other words im admiting I was wrong about the emulator project and I accept defeat.
"There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now."
Boba Fett
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
I have limited General Legal experience, but I do have Legal / RE experience.
By the nature of RE'ing, they are not RE'ing server Code, they are actually "writing" it. What they are doing is taking the packets of data sent to and from the server and client, and reading them to see how the communicate. They are then taking that information and building code that can communicate with the client. It's extreamly complicated, but not as difficult as most would think. If you know that A says X to B, then B says Y to A, then to figure out how B comes to that action is the goal. A TON of the information is in the client, and the "conversations" are in the packets.
RE'ing is completely Legal unless you are violating a national security order. I know this form personal experience. Is it more complex than that? Sure, but that's the basic law. As long as you don't steal code, you can make something that has the same properties. Think of it this way: How many Tax Software Suites are there? They all do the same thing, they all use the same rules, but they are all writen differently, they just try to reach the same goal. Not an exact comparison, but close enough.
Now, there are MANY Legal arguements once you hit CREATING servers, but there are almost none leading up to it.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
I believe Wildcat84 was using the word "open source" as a reference to the Emulator code being made public. The same was done with EQ and WoW and by it becoming available to the public at large - both made leaps and bounds in the realms of improvement and emulation. The Emu code isn't SOE's server code but rather a program to utilize the components in a way that makes the game files operable. The creators of this code can make it public and thus "open sourced". Using names or SOE creatd files would be the sticking point. EQ is a great example of this. Damn those spell text files...
The arguement against this is easy: You already bought the game, so there is NO theft. And it will win.
ALL of the Art is on your machine, not on the Server, and the names & referances are not protected if they are not sold, or used to generate profit, that's established precident.
LEC/SOE have no case, quite literally, unless someone related to the EMU starts giving away SWG for people to play the EMU, and that would be just stupid.
EDIT: Oh, and I agree, they will sue. That's their REAL power... to finacially punish anyone who starts a server...
The fact that you purchased it, there are certain issues of intellectual property. Once you purchase it, you have to abide by certain rules to play the game. If you don't, you are guilty of copyright infringement. Which is what the EMU is. Considering almost all marks of the Star Wars franchise are copyrighted and trademarked, to use them against the permission of LA gets you in trouble. And they've already gone after people doing it on the web, an emu will be no different.
People tried arguing the way you did when it came to napster and downloading music, and the courts rejected their argumentation, staying it was still copyright infringement and a violation of their intellectual property.
SWG is running for 3 years now, providing consistent gameplay to 100k+ players.
If there's an emu provider that can match their level of competence, they will have achieved something. But looking at big picture: Just because you made a homepage about ninjas, doesn't mean yahoo is trembling. It's not about knowing HTML. As a matter of fact, providing a service has absolutely nothing to do with code.
Ask yourself this. With all the in-game bugs, which are numerous, how come their servers hardly ever crash. After all, you can encounter a bug in a matter of seconds in game. How come their servers don't crash that frequently?
Providing consistent gameplay? The NGE is a completely different game from pre cu, even cu
Level of competence? SOE? lol do I need to say more?
SOE has not provided consistent gameplay and their level of competence is in serious doubt by many many ppl. Not just Online Gamers but as far as Stock Holders as well.
And just to touch up on this. If they would of provided consistent gameplay and showed a high level of competence.........none of us would be on this topic at all.
Legally no it's not. It is still Star Wars Galaxies. They reserve the right to make changes, no matter how gawd-awful stupid. It is consistent gameplay in that as rekrul noted, their servers don't crash, and they've been running for 3 years. If their competence is in doubt, the market soon enough will decide that. Until then, this discussion is pointless.
I have limited General Legal experience, but I do have Legal / RE experience.
By the nature of RE'ing, they are not RE'ing server Code, they are actually "writing" it. What they are doing is taking the packets of data sent to and from the server and client, and reading them to see how the communicate. They are then taking that information and building code that can communicate with the client. It's extreamly complicated, but not as difficult as most would think. If you know that A says X to B, then B says Y to A, then to figure out how B comes to that action is the goal. A TON of the information is in the client, and the "conversations" are in the packets.
RE'ing is completely Legal unless you are violating a national security order. I know this form personal experience. Is it more complex than that? Sure, but that's the basic law. As long as you don't steal code, you can make something that has the same properties. Think of it this way: How many Tax Software Suites are there? They all do the same thing, they all use the same rules, but they are all writen differently, they just try to reach the same goal. Not an exact comparison, but close enough.
Now, there are MANY Legal arguements once you hit CREATING servers, but there are almost none leading up to it.
Whats your opinion on the emu being for a game that is not identicle to the game now. How would that be argued for or against or is that a moot point in your opinion?
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
EULA's have been challeneged in court (US-Federal 8th Circuit Court of Appeales St. Louis, MO), with the most recent that I can think of was dealing with WoW / Blizzard.. I am using the EULA because most state you cannot do what the EMU guys are doing, and as such is used as the primary basis for the lawsuits.
Link to info can be found here:
http://www.eff.org/IP/Emulation/Blizzard_v_bnetd/
http://news.com.com/Blizzard+wins+lawsuit+on+video+game+hacking/2100-1047_3-5845905.html
You can also Yahoo search for this... Not only did it set a precedent it defined the Digital Milleniumj Copyright Act, passed by congress at the behest of compaines. The other problem was the judge stated it trumped the Federal Fair Use Law, which the Bnet people cited as their defense.
Unless im missing something this would be the case that is going to be cited when SOE files their legal issues. Depending on where the EMU people are will determine the outcome... If they are outside the US, International Law is gonna come up (and as far as I am concerned Intl. Law is a firggin mess). If they are outside the 8th circuit then they will be ok until this case is cited as precedent and reaffirmed by whatever appelate division has it.
You can find more on the EULA and how crappy they are here:
http://www.eff.org/wp/eula.php
Just my 2 cents worth.
Xcathdra
Having access to a billion $ IP - Billions of dollars..
Having access to a massive fan base of said IP - Even more Billons...
Singly handedly alienating them due to stupidity - Priceless.
____________________________________________
im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
I have limited General Legal experience, but I do have Legal / RE experience.
By the nature of RE'ing, they are not RE'ing server Code, they are actually "writing" it. What they are doing is taking the packets of data sent to and from the server and client, and reading them to see how the communicate. They are then taking that information and building code that can communicate with the client. It's extreamly complicated, but not as difficult as most would think. If you know that A says X to B, then B says Y to A, then to figure out how B comes to that action is the goal. A TON of the information is in the client, and the "conversations" are in the packets.
RE'ing is completely Legal unless you are violating a national security order. I know this form personal experience. Is it more complex than that? Sure, but that's the basic law. As long as you don't steal code, you can make something that has the same properties. Think of it this way: How many Tax Software Suites are there? They all do the same thing, they all use the same rules, but they are all writen differently, they just try to reach the same goal. Not an exact comparison, but close enough.
Now, there are MANY Legal arguements once you hit CREATING servers, but there are almost none leading up to it.
False comparison. THose are not interchangable. You can not take a file from Company A's and use it in Company B's software. The end result is the same but the not process, so they are what is called a reflective similar.
Reverse engineering is illegal in all forms in software because it involves the first step of modifying either the client or the server software. You determine the server response to data from the client my modding the client to control what data is sent. You then artifically (aka do something not allowed in the original client) to control what data is sent to the server in order to read the response. Then decrypting the data packets to read the server's responses is another legal violation.
If you want to discuss the general an obvious law applications on the SWGEMU then EVERY piece of content that is on a SWGEMU server is breaking copyright. How? well they are not referencing someone else's work, nor using a likeness they are blatently using someone elses visual creatino without permission to represent data.
Again to even let a client interface with SWGEMU the client has to be either modded, which is illegal since you do not own the code, or the server has to send data to mimic being a legit server, which has already been given the precident of fraud. Now not only are the SWGEMU creators violating the law, but the home user is also.
Dream all you want but SWGEMU is blatantly illegal.
Sure, someone could create a program that operates similar to the old SWG enviroment legally. They could mimic game play usign their own coding and create they own client, but that isn't what they have done.
Kai
False comparison. THose are not interchangable. You can not take a file from Company A's and use it in Company B's software. The end result is the same but the not process, so they are what is called a reflective similar.
Reverse engineering is illegal in all forms in software because it involves the first step of modifying either the client or the server software. You determine the server response to data from the client my modding the client to control what data is sent. You then artifically (aka do something not allowed in the original client) to control what data is sent to the server in order to read the response. Then decrypting the data packets to read the server's responses is another legal violation.
If you want to discuss the general an obvious law applications on the SWGEMU then EVERY piece of content that is on a SWGEMU server is breaking copyright. How? well they are not referencing someone else's work, nor using a likeness they are blatently using someone elses visual creatino without permission to represent data.
Again to even let a client interface with SWGEMU the client has to be either modded, which is illegal since you do not own the code, or the server has to send data to mimic being a legit server, which has already been given the precident of fraud. Now not only are the SWGEMU creators violating the law, but the home user is also.
Dream all you want but SWGEMU is blatantly illegal.
Sure, someone could create a program that operates similar to the old SWG enviroment legally. They could mimic game play usign their own coding and create they own client, but that isn't what they have done.
Company X owns the IP. Company Y bought the license. Company Z uses the product. Company Z is told by Company Y they can do what they want with the product. So Company Z does things that violates common IP laws with Company X. However Company X cant sue Company Z because Z didnt hold the license. Company Y did. So Company X sues Company Y since Company Y gave Company Z permission to do what they want. Company Y could sue Company Z however they gave them permission.
Welcome to world of laws. A complete CF anyway you look at it.
Kai
Open source is software that was written specifically to be shared with the world for free. I do not think SOE or LA ever made that software as OS.
Honestly I do not think I would trust an EMU server. Who ever runs it will have all the power to do what ever they want. Imagine playing on that server for a year and pissing off a friend of the server OP. The next time you log in everything you own is gone and your character is back to noob status.
Not to mention I doubt who ever is gonna run one of these will have the means to be able to defend themselves in a very prolonged court battle. Lawyers are very expensive. Even if they are right LA and SOE will make it very difficult and extremly expensive to do this, just watch.
Besides what else do you think they do with all their money? Improve their games? LOL
btw here is a link to the official OS website: http://www.opensource.org You will notice it doesn't mention SWG at all in there lol. Yea SWG server and client code is NOT open source.
The EMU code was not made by hacking SOE code its made by reverse engineering the code therefore SWGEMU is not SWG it is a seperate product which does similar things therefore its not illegal. LEC/SOE cannot do anything about the EMU but if people start playing on the EMU's with illegal clients i.e downloaded via bit torrent they they are violating a few laws and can i think be taken to court over it. So for the EMU to succeed you need to use legit copies of SWG to play on the EMU servers. Also they cannot charge you to play on the servers as long as they remain non-profit they should be safe donations I think are ok.
Water cooled Intel Corei7 920 D0 Stepping OC'd 4.3GHz - 6GB Corsair Dominator GT RAM 2000Mhz - ASUS RAGE II EXTREME X58 Mobo - 2x HD 5870 in Crossfire X, OC'd 0.9Ghz core 1.3Ghz RAM - Dell 2407WFP Flat Panel LCD 24" 1920x1200
You do know, that it's no longer possible to obtain publish 12 client (swgclient_r.exe)?
You can get all the other files, but not the executable. So where will emu players get it? I'm sure there are several players out there, that still have this exact version, but they are once again not allowed to distribute it.
Next generation of operating systems will provide support for hardware enforced DRM. Linux will be a target for that as well, and on many ocasions Linus himself aknowledged the need for such mechanisms.
A dvd costs less than $0.5 per unit to produce and distribute. How much do you pay for it?
This is a false idea , and an overly used one . Yes the plastic comes cheap , But you are not paying for the plastic . You are paying for the artists/Developers work . Not to mention production costs in the millions for a videogame . Add on developer/artist/renderer salleries . Marketing , Sound enginering , Music compostion/rights etc. .
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The fact that you purchased it, there are certain issues of intellectual property. Once you purchase it, you have to abide by certain rules to play the game. If you don't, you are guilty of copyright infringement. Which is what the EMU is. Considering almost all marks of the Star Wars franchise are copyrighted and trademarked, to use them against the permission of LA gets you in trouble. And they've already gone after people doing it on the web, an emu will be no different.
People tried arguing the way you did when it came to napster and downloading music, and the courts rejected their argumentation, staying it was still copyright infringement and a violation of their intellectual property.
Napster was theft, this is not. You've bought the game. The NApster arguements were nothing like this.
I won't get into why I believe this, but you are Definatly NOT violating Copyright & Trademark laws. You would have to be publicly distributing the game to do that. If you are using it for personal use, and you PAY for it, you can do pretty much what you like with your client. The second you distribute it, you're breaking the law.
Look at it this way: If you buy CoD2 and load it with hacks, you're breaking the EULA but you're NOT breaking one law. You have completely altered the software for personal use, but that doesn't make it illegal. And as far as Copyright & Trademark laws, you have to Violate them by distributing them.
I could buy 50 of those 12 inch Han Solo figures, stick Barbie heads on them, alter the packaging to call them Barb Wars & give them out to 50 people and there is NOTHING LEC could do. If I sold them, I MAY be able to get away with it, but it would be difficult...
These laws people keep quoting (no flame intended) are no where near as covering as people think they are. I DO know that from personal experience.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
I have limited General Legal experience, but I do have Legal / RE experience.
Think of it this way: How many Tax Software Suites are there? They all do the same thing, they all use the same rules, but they are all writen differently, they just try to reach the same goal. Not an exact comparison, but close enough.
False comparison. THose are not interchangable. You can not take a file from Company A's and use it in Company B's software. The end result is the same but the not process, so they are what is called a reflective similar.
Reverse engineering is illegal in all forms in software because it involves the first step of modifying either the client or the server software.
Actually, they are. You can load company A's file with company B's software... You can actually import past filings and untied companies files (Quicken) as well.
This is completely false. This is what my company fights EVERY day, I know what I'm talking about, even if you don't believe me. There are several software developers at this moment trying to reverse Engineer our Propriatry software, and it is legal & long as the do NOT vilolate any Patents.
Do a Web search, you'll find a ton of companies who will do this for you for a price.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
FOr those late comers to this thread who dont want to read it all.
People speculate on lawsuits interjecting opinions and thoughts of which none of them make any difference on the current situation.
A few of the highllights.
EMU's suck.
LA Will sue
SOE will sue.
EMu's will live on in slovkia
I wiil sue you all (my thoughts)
EMu's got permission from soe
Emu's gms are the suck
I think I covered this topic?
About the only informative post I read was about an eq emu and how its been run and comparing it to how they view swgemu's future.
Current status: EMU is in development and making good progress.
That is all that matters. Any other debate is just your useless opinions on copyright laws and IP laws which last I checked wasn't worth the bytes used to store the post with.
Woohooo! Way to go Slovkia!
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Kai
Smedlley most certainly does not have the right to give them permission. Just because SOE has a license from LEC to do certain things with Star Wars material, doesn't mean they have the right to sublicense it to anyone they want. In fact, I'd be shocked if the agreement didn't contain a very strict limitation on the right of SOE to delegate its rights.
As far as the RIAA is concerned, you are sadly mistaken. It doesn't matter that they are not a governmental entity. They have rights just like anyone else, and can use the courts to enforce those rights if you infringe them. If you really got off as easily as you said, it's most likely that they did not want to sue you in a jurisdication near where you live, or simply because they'd prefer not to bother with people who are smart enought to get lawyers. There's plenty of other fish in the sea that are easier targets, and the whole thing was about scaring people into obeying the law. That doesn't mean they couldn't have gone after you to the full extent of the law if they really wanted to.
I'd love to see the court opinion that said LEC can't enforce it's rights against people in other games. Even if there really is one, however, this situation is different from what you described. We're not talking about people adding features to a game they already paid for. Every player who uses the EMU is potentially a player not paying for an SWG subscription.
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im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
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im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
Say what you want, but if the guy's wrong, he's wrong. He made a lot of unsubstantiated claims, none of which really make any sense if you have even the remotest understanding of IP law.
If you think he's so correct, please help me find any evidence that he knows what he's talking about.
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im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good