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Regarding combat levels
ebenholt
Member Posts: 312
I really need to talk about this thing. It’s not just about SWG alone but concerns every MMORPG out there.
Combat levels absolutely destroy a lot of the gaming experience and it gives the wrong type of signals to the players. You see them rushing to get to the top and then what? Maybe PvP but these people don’t play the game they just max out to feel some sort of “I win!”
In the pre CUNGE game you could make friends with other noobs and try getting your skills together. Then RL things got in the way and you couldn’t play for some time. When you got back you could just join up with those new friends and go on (even if they were far beyond your progression).
Since the CU (and in every single MMO I’ve played) there are those damned combat levels! It’s like being back in school where you can only “hang out” with the first class students if you’re a level 1 player. When you get back in game you can’t play with your friends anymore as they are so far ahead and you would only be dead weight.
For immersion pre CUNGE gave MOB’s and NPC’s character with their different behaviors (although not bug free), sats and defenses. Now they are just “angry bags with levels and different skin”. I know lots of people hated the min/max concept because you needed the best things to compete but at least it made sense in a way. “This <insert item> has better stats so therefore it do/resist more damage etc”.
In the old game you could PARTICIPATE in anything (PvE or PvP) if buffed, without getting one hit killed. Now you’re on the sideline looking if you’re not of “right level”. Your combat level should not be part of the equation for damage capability or amount of life.
This was just some aspects of it and there are countless more, I just don’t feel like typing an essay…
Feel free to chip in or dissect
"There are two kinds of spurs, my friend. Those that come in by the door; those that come in by the window"
Comments
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
It is the reason i quit with the CU, adding combat levels was a lazy way of "balancing" pve around the new system. And its the reason it took me so long to get into Wow (and other games for that matter), because if you dont start at the same time as your friends, you dont see them again until 60.
To me, it seems adding combat levels are the safe but unimaginative way of designing an mmo and i will not play any new game with them, no matter what other features the game has.
For the Horde!
Regarding hanging out with your friends in the NGE. When I used my free 5 days (didn't bother with the other 10 days), I respected to a CL 61 toon. I was able to easily kill cl 80+ creatures. I've seen reports of people able to do that at much lower levels than I had. So there is no real point in grouping in the first place.
I understand what you mean though. I was an opponent of levels determining the damage you did when the CU came out. I despise levels in MMORPGs.
The progression of all MMORPGs (level based)
1) Log on
2) Grind
3) Reach max level
4) Quit
That stopped being fun for me years ago.
"There are two kinds of spurs, my friend. Those that come in by the door; those that come in by the window"
So yeah... I am not a big fan of combat levels. That's perhaps why I am so enjoying the Saga of Ryzom, which I just started playing... it's skill based, free-form, and NOT level based. And I'm loving it.
C
To many, these two are very important indicators of their progress.
The problem here doesn't come from the levels themself, but simply from the world design. Most MMORPGs are so devoid of content, that the only way to provide enough to fill the world is to define it around grind.
Contrary to that you can see Guild Wars. Levels are only the tutorial part. After that, it's skill based. 50% of original game, and 80%+ of Chapter 2 is for maxed out characters, but takes into consideration only builds. Leveling is a matter of 8 - 48 hours.
But this is also the reason why it doesn't apeal to lots of players - the lack of artificial superiority imposed through levels: "I grinded so I deserve it." This attitude is blatantly obvious in SWG, where elder Jedi simply assume that because they grinded, they deserved something more. Once again, the problem is not in the grind, it's in the fact that grind was all there was that was easily distinguishable.
And yes, levels do define end-game, the point where you quit. They also make it easy to release additions by increasing level cap. And they make many things simpler, since the player is no longer overwhealmed with some obscure signals, but has a clear indication about what opponents they can defeat and which not. But any game that bases it's progression around levels and progressive grind to obtain skills is doomed to fail at pvp as well as the mythical "end-game".
Umm, no. They did exhist and that is how missions were generated to be a challenge to the person or group. The only difference the CU made was it SHOWED your level and added a damage multiplier. And post CU I had no problem grouping low and high levels together and having both ends gain experience from it.
Just because it isn't visible folks doesn't mean it wasn't there before. You could always see the combat level of a mission in the bottom corner of the description on the mission terminal. That level was based on your combat level the exact same way it was calculated after the CU.
Assuming having levels means it is going to be like WoW or EQ is wrong. Levels can be handled many ways and SWG always handled them very well. Now however with the NGE they have made them very similar to standard fantasy MMO's taking out the choice of what skill boxes you wanted to fill in on the old system yourself and doing it for you.
The NGE didn't add levels, it removed choice of skills.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Umm, no. They did exhist and that is how missions were generated to be a challenge to the person or group. The only difference the CU made was it SHOWED your leve and added a damage multiplier. And post CU I had no problem grouping low and high levels together and having both ends gain experience from it.
Yep . That is very true , infact you beat me too it .
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
And I added to my OP...
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Umm, no. They did exhist and that is how missions were generated to be a challenge to the person or group. The only difference the CU made was it SHOWED your leve and added a damage multiplier. And post CU I had no problem grouping low and high levels together and having both ends gain experience from it.
Levels weren't in pre-cu, they weren't part of the data tables either. The level displayed on the terminal was difficulty modifier, which determined the resists, number of spawns, max ham and number of mobs per lair. In some way related, but no levels as such.
This is also the reason why there were such drastic imbalances with CU. Mobs simply didn't scale from this difficulty index into levels. Mainly because the scaling factor wasn't linear before, but a combination of factors.
As for post-cu, first month it worked. Then it was: "Piket spin group, 75+ only, must have area attack, /tell for invite"
Umm, no. They did exhist and that is how missions were generated to be a challenge to the person or group. The only difference the CU made was it SHOWED your leve and added a damage multiplier. And post CU I had no problem grouping low and high levels together and having both ends gain experience from it.
Levels weren't in pre-cu, they weren't part of the data tables either. The level displayed on the terminal was difficulty modifier, which determined the resists, number of spawns, max ham and number of mobs per lair. In some way related, but no levels as such.This is also the reason why there were such drastic imbalances with CU. Mobs simply didn't scale from this difficulty index into levels. Mainly because the scaling factor wasn't linear before, but a combination of factors.
As for post-cu, first month it worked. Then it was: "Piket spin group, 75+ only, must have area attack, /tell for invite"
Remember the CL400 Bols on Dantooine?
You are right about the old difficulty number not scaling to CL very well, that was what caused some of those insane spawns.
"There are two kinds of spurs, my friend. Those that come in by the door; those that come in by the window"
Umm, no. They did exhist and that is how missions were generated to be a challenge to the person or group. The only difference the CU made was it SHOWED your leve and added a damage multiplier. And post CU I had no problem grouping low and high levels together and having both ends gain experience from it.
Levels weren't in pre-cu, they weren't part of the data tables either. The level displayed on the terminal was difficulty modifier, which determined the resists, number of spawns, max ham and number of mobs per lair. In some way related, but no levels as such.This is also the reason why there were such drastic imbalances with CU. Mobs simply didn't scale from this difficulty index into levels. Mainly because the scaling factor wasn't linear before, but a combination of factors.
As for post-cu, first month it worked. Then it was: "Piket spin group, 75+ only, must have area attack, /tell for invite"
The developers even said long ago that yes indeed there were levels underneath the workings. But they did not work as they would in a standard level based game . If you were simply a Master marksman , You could not kill any thing considered a high level NPC . Whats the difference ?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Sorry, you are incorrect. They have always been there, the damage mulitplier is the part that changed.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
I found a CL 800+ boar on Endor. I think it had Bloodstained in it's name? I spotted it and warned my group to avoid it. Someone ignored me, and the next thing I knew, we were all dead. One hit killed everyone, one at a time, and we were all CL 80 (either harvesting hides for our armorsmith, or meat for my BE).
Edit: Regarding the level issue. As any master ranger could tell you, there were levels on creatures Pre-CU. Rancors were around 55, the one Gorax I found pre-CU had a level of 300. I never saw resists change on different mobs of the same species, but I never truly looked at that end of it.
In pre-CU SWG, your level was defined by what skills you had. So for example, your "Master Marksman" counted as equivalent to about level "12." He wasn't "character level 12" though... his level was defined by his skills. A full master TKA was equivalent to say level 25 (making up numbers... it's been too long for me to remember the real ones). This was based on the idea that because you had certain skills, those skills gave you a certain level of toughness.
You character, however, was not "level 25" per se. Your HAM bars were not affected by level, and thus a level "25" equivalent master TKA had the same hit points, same action points, etc, as a level "1" novice marksman. It also didn't affect your to-hit, and it did not affect your damage, by itself.
What affected your damage pre-CU was your skills. Thus, everyone had some "base" damage. Let's call it 100 damage. That's what you did with auto-attack punch. Now you learn "unarmed hit 1". Unarmed hit 1 does +50% damage. You are now doing 150 damage. You will do 150 damage to a level 1 creature, or a level 100 creature, or anything in between. That's because your damage was defined by your skills, not by your level. Now, the level 100 creature might have "90% resistance" to that type of attack, and as a result you wouldn't do the whole 150 to his actual HAM bars... but that's different from how the CU did it.
What the CU did was say, "Your level defines your damage." And more importantly, "Your level relative to your target defines your damage." Therefore, with the CU, a level 10 did more damage than a level 1, not because of which skills or even which attack he was using, but because he was level 10. This concept did not exist in the pre-CU world.
Therefore it is simply a lie to pretend that "levels always existed and were just hidden." Levels fundamentally represented something different pre- and post-CU. In the pre-CU game, the server added up all your skills, and from that figured how how "tough" you must be. It added up all the stats and characteristics of a creature, and figured out from that how tough the creature was. This, for instance, is why pre-CU you could not even pull a rogue bageraset mission from the terms if you had MTKA. The rogue bageraset had a small range of possible resistances and HAM values, and those added up to a certain level range (say, 15-20). Since you were "equivalent to level 25" because of your skills, a rogue bag would be too weak for you. In post-CU (I remember this because they were the first creatures I fought -- assuming incorrectly that they would be easy), you could pull any creature off the terms, and it would be your level. In pre-CU, even though they might both be level 20, a rogue bag and a sludge panther were fundamentally different creatures. They were level 20 because they had certain characteristics... the sludge had damage, HAMs, resists... the bag had less damage, more hams, more resists (example -- not actually true for those creatures). The server added up those characteristics and summarized them as a level.
In post-CU everything was just a bag of hit points. If you were level 75, you pulled a level 75 mission, period. What creature it was depended on the planet. On Corellia you pulled level 75 rogue bags. On Dant you pulled 75 pikets. On naboo you pulled 75 bolle bols. On Tat you pulled level 75 rontos. These creatures had all been fundamentally DIFFERENT pre-CU, but were identical post-CU, because what mattered was their level. Their level was determined first, and, once determined, it set the "allowable range" for their hit points, their resistances, and their damage. This is the logical opposite of pre-CU, where they creature was generated with a set of STATS, and from those stats, its level was derived.
There is a difference between stats being derived from level, and level being drived from stats. The devs of SWG have pretended since the CU came out that there is no difference, but there fundamentally is, and it totally changed how the game played. Nobody EVER said pre-CU that each creature was "just a bag of hit points" -- it wouldn't have occurred to anyone to say that because level was less important to people than stats. A low level creature with crappy HAMS but 90% resistance to energy would give you a very tough time if you were using an energy weapon. But switch to a sonic weapon and suddenly you can kick its butt. This was possible pre-CU. It was NOT possible post-CU because it would kick your butt only based on level, not on weapon, resistances, your exact skills, or anything else.
So yes, pre-CU did "summarize" what you and your target could do with a number, and they called that number (probably for lack of a better term) "level", but this was fundamentally different in how it was computed, and in how it acted, from the post-CU game where the level you were became the be-all and end-all of everything. Pretending that these two very different ways of doing things were the same is just false on its face.
C
Sorry, you are incorrect. They have always been there, the damage mulitplier is the part that changed.
Oh and the fact that at one time you did not focus on it or were drawn to it.
It was skill based, or in other words-- you did not need to know, want to know, or base things on that. You based it on the skill box you earned or class you mastered.
Sure they can almost be the same but I can safely tell you I did not start the game by saying "Man I want to be a Level 86 Officer"... It was much more real to say Master Marksman or Master Smuggler --( no numbers needed) -- This was yet another waste of time by the Devs in the CU version.
Showing the numbers did nothing, not one bit of good and really had no purpose as long as you had skills to master -- not a level or number (Sure it could reflect it but who cares) ---
I have to think the goal to this was showing people that are new thier progress or somthing...
But like I have said before we went from a SIM type world game to a Arcade Multiplayer version that sucks... So this is where some of this was needed I guess.
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Ok first off I stated the difference was the damage modifier which you spend a very large paragraph re-pointing out.
The fact that mobs were changed into generic bags with skins has nothing to do with the level system for players in the game.
Your level was still defined by what skills you had after the CU. The entire way it calculated what level you were is by what skills you took and not all skills were equal. Perhaps you have misunderstandings about the CU's level system in regard to the skill system. The level system in the CU was directly generated by the skill system not the other way around. The damage modifier which I already brought up was what changed things dramatically. And you then you spend 3 paragraphs argueing me with my exact point.
As for your points with HAM versus hitpoints, that is due to the changes of the combat system and I am not going to get into that discussion. That is sidetracking off the conversation. The point was the OP felt there were no levels in pre-cu and that is incorrect. They were there and calculated off your skills just like post-cu. The difference is the damage modifier and the obvious differences due to the new combat system (hitpoints alone versus HAM).
I don't recall stats changing based on level either, but ok. They may have but I don't recall it.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
You can argume semantics about pre-cu vs cu levels all day, the point is, pre-cu only used "levels" as a kind of guild line. In the cu, levels were THE line and the game was redesigned around them.
For the Horde!
Wether or not you approved of them showing is your opinion and taste. Wether they are there or not is not a matter of opinion or taste and they were there. You didn't have to change your gameplay for the level system, you didn't even have to pay attention to it. At level 80 I was grouping with level 20's and having fun. It didn't bother me one bit. The Master titles were still there and in use by everyone. Badges still exhisted and many professions finally had a life to them again and some balance was showing in the game.
Did the CU have it's flaws? It most certainly did. Was it what they promised? No it was not. However the SWG development team has never delivered what they have promised before and it wasn't like that was the first time they failed to deliver in a long record of failings.
The CU was a step in the right direction for the game in my opinion. It may not have been the best step but it was still getting better, there was improvement instead of the current trend of a downhill drop in quality and fun.
The NGE on the other hand is a travesty and completely destroyed the depth of the game. However it was only the latest change in an obvious trend that started with the loot system in JTL and the linear progression that it gave offered. Then came Rage of the Wookies that offered more linear storyline gaming that everyone loved and dove in head first for. And along with it came restrictive terrain but everyone was alright with that as well. Then Trials of Obi-Wan which only showed them more that people wanted the style of gameplay that the NGE offered.
Were they wrong for interpretting that to the ultimate degree and giving us the NGE? Dam right they were. But if there is one thing SOE knows, it's what people will tolerate and still keep paying their monthly while they keep the game appealing to the crowd they don't have yet.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
PnP DnD started that long long ago and many people identify with the immediate goal rewards they get from it. Even the old pre-cu SWG skill system was oriented that way. They were levels, you just had a choice of direction with each one.
UO was a very rare example of a pure skill system that didn't work on the reward concept.
And I would argue your point as well. The ame wasn't re-designed around levels. The game was very much still intact arond the Skill system that the level system worked off of. Your concept is still flawed.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
PnP DnD started that long long ago and many people identify with the immediate goal rewards they get from it. Even the old pre-cu SWG skill system was oriented that way. They were levels, you just had a choice of direction with each one.
UO was a very rare example of a pure skill system that didn't work on the reward concept.
And I would argue your point as well. The ame wasn't re-designed around levels. The game was very much still intact arond the Skill system that the level system worked off of. Your concept is still flawed.
One thing to note here, the level system as such might have been at some obscure internal routine, but not to the same purpose.
Player didn't have a level, regardless of what you call it. They had difficulty rating, which was directly calculated on offensive power. It was an index of attack modifiers and weapon damage, therefore changing weapon affected the con rating and mission levels that terminals would give.
This is why it was possible to group with AT-ST (very high damage rating) and get 99 (or was it 199) difficulty missions, whereas in some cases a full group of 20 couldn't get that high.
In addition, pets had closest to levels, which was only an indicator of growth and taming skills. It once again had no bearing on gameplay.
But once again, this difficulty rating (call it what you want) was not a level. It changed with mods (equip SEA-ed armor) and weapon wielded. It only served the random mission spawning purposes. Levels on mobs were also determined differently, mostly by groups (domesticated, wild, mountain ... mob). These shared templates with some variance, but each of these groups had predefined attributes, which mildly varied. For example, Krayts had from 80%?, 90%, 95%? resists among juvy, regular and ancient. You couldn't get some weird low, mid or high level krayt. I believe this held true for all spawns.
With CU, each type of xp was assigned a multiplier (regular 1x, BH x3, BE x10, etc.) and total experience accumulated by player was summed up. This was compared against a table to determine player level. Someone with 6.5mil such generalized xp would end up level 44 for example.
This lead to other problems. Minimal multiplier was 1x. It was used for most combat xp, as well as Jedi xp. But given the huge ammounts of Jedi xp needed to get even basic boxes, Jedi ended up with only 9 or so skill-boxes at level 80 with no real skills to support the template. This was especially in conflict due to skill point cost, which required them to drop most of any other template by then. I believe it was 12 mil Jedi xp that put you at level 80. IIRC, that was much less than a single Jedi mastery, yet it cost you most of your skill points by then.
In NGE, there is level. Nothing else.
It's all a symantics game anyway...even a skill bases system is still level oriented. The further along you progress in a specific skill the better you are in it. Progress in a skill is marked by specific points wether it be levels or tiers or whever you want to call them...in the end it all boils down to the same thing...levels. Combat levels or skill levels it's all just a way of measuring progressions. In both cases you have to earn/grind XP to progress.
In the case of the mission terminals pre-CU if it were a straight up difficulty level then your character's progression and/or the size of your group would not have any effect on the missions generated. Which we all know that our character and our group as well as the planet we were on were all factors in determining the difficulty of the missions assigned by the terminals.