Your level was still defined by what skills you had after the CU. The entire way it calculated what level you were is by what skills you took and not all skills were equal. Perhaps you have misunderstandings about the CU's level system in regard to the skill system. The level system in the CU was directly generated by the skill system not the other way around. The damage modifier which I already brought up was what changed things dramatically. And you then you spend 3 paragraphs argueing me with my exact point.
Not quite.
Let's do a couple of thought experiments.
It's pre-CU. You are a Master Pikeman, Novice Marksman. You equip your pike. You look at the mission terminals. The mission terminal, when you scan it, checks your skills with the pike, determines you have 25 "skill boxes" in it (or whatever) and rates you as "effectively level 25." It then shows you a list of lairs to do that are "level 25 difficulty" -- i.e., a challenge for a Master Pikeman.
Now, still in pre-CU... unequip your pike and equip a pistol. Remember, you're novice marksman. Re-examine the mission terminal. It gives you a bunch of stuff that is level what? 25? No... level 6. Why? Because you are a novice marksman, and now have "effective level 6." You are playing the same exact character, but it's giving you different missions. Why? Because you are not "level 25" or "level 6". You are skilled differently in different weapons, and the game is dynamically computing your skill rating with the weapon in your hand each time you look at the mission terminal. And indeed, each time you hit a creature. After all, draw the level 6 mission with your pistol and go do it, and you'll get a few hundred XP in pistol for each kill. But equip your pike and kill those same creatures, and you get "1 xp" (if that). Why? Because they are not a challenge to an MPike with a pike in his hand, but they are a challenge to an MPike/Novice Marksman with a pistol in his hand. The game scanned what your weapon was, what the creature had for stats, and your current skill box list, each and every time you made a kill, before awarding XP. And so forth.
Now, let's fast-forward to June 2005. It's the CU.
You are Master Pike, level what was it 60 or something? And Novice Marksman as well. Now at level 60, holding a pike, you look at the mission term. It offers you... level 60. Makes sense. Now equip the pistol. Look at the mission term. What does it offer you? Level 60 targets! Why? Because you now have a "character level". What matters is that you have a mastery, any mastery, in any "combat" skill group. Which one does not matter. Once you have 2 you are "level capped" at 80 (or whatever it was -- hell I don't even remenber now) and it no longer matters what skills you use. Nor does the weapon matter. An MTKA/MSword could pick up a one-handed fencing weapon and do just as much damage as an MFencer/MSword, using TKA moves with the sword. Why? Because what matters is not what skill or what weapon you have but what level you are. I had an MTKA/Msword and fought unarmed all the time, using often the SWORD skills. Why? Because it did not matter, and I did "level 80 damage" with the sword skill regardless of what my other skills were.
This is a fundamentally different approach to the way the game played. It was NOT just "unmasking" the hidden level ranges from the players so we could see them. It turned the basic functioning of the game upside-down.
Originally posted by InspGadgt It's all a symantics game anyway...even a skill bases system is still level oriented. The further along you progress in a specific skill the better you are in it. Progress in a skill is marked by specific points wether it be levels or tiers or whever you want to call them...in the end it all boils down to the same thing...levels. Combat levels or skill levels it's all just a way of measuring progressions. In both cases you have to earn/grind XP to progress.
No, it really isn't the same.
There is a difference between Character Level and Skill Level (or rank or whatever). In pre-CU, I could be "level 25" (effectively) in Sword and "level 1" (effectively) in Pistol. In post-CU, heck in any level-based game this is not true. In D&D a level 20 fighter is level 20 as a character, not just level 20 in fighting skills. He resists magic, at Character Level 20. He resists poison, at Character Level 20. He uses a sword, an axe, a club, heck even a spell scroll if he somehow could do it, at Character Level 20.
In a skill based game this is not true. If I am a Master Pistoleer (call it level 25 for the sake of argument in that skill) but Novice Brawler, and I have a hand-to-hand weapon equipped, I act not as a Master, but as a Novice. My skills are based on themselves, not my Character Level.
This is fundamentally different. You can perhaps more easily see it in the Saga of Ryzom, where it is skill based, but within skills, there are levels. My character is "Level 51" in melee combat, but "level 24" in defensive magic. If I use defensive magic in combat, my character's effectiveness in the fight, as well as the experience she will earn, is at level 24, not level 51. In a game based on Character Levels, you operate at the same level for ALL skills, essentially.
That's why post-CU and pre-CU are so different. Pre-CU, if an MTKA picked up a Pike, he did Novce Brawler (level 6) damage with it. Post-CU if an MTKA picked up a pike, he did MTKA (Level 60) damage with it. Same situation, two different schemes, two very different outcomes.
Originally posted by Shayde That's another thing that made pre-cu great. Levels didn't exist. A group could have anyone in it.
Umm, no. They did exhist and that is how missions were generated to be a challenge to the person or group. The only difference the CU made was it SHOWED your level and added a damage multiplier. And post CU I had no problem grouping low and high levels together and having both ends gain experience from it.
Just because it isn't visible folks doesn't mean it wasn't there before. You could always see the combat level of a mission in the bottom corner of the description on the mission terminal. That level was based on your combat level the exact same way it was calculated after the CU.
Assuming having levels means it is going to be like WoW or EQ is wrong. Levels can be handled many ways and SWG always handled them very well. Now however with the NGE they have made them very similar to standard fantasy MMO's taking out the choice of what skill boxes you wanted to fill in on the old system yourself and doing it for you.
The NGE didn't add levels, it removed choice of skills.
Actually.. yes and no.
There might have been there, but they meant absolutely nothing. Didn't effect combat at all.. zero, zilch, nada.
It really wasn't a level, per se... due to the fact that it was effected by threat, and even what weapon you had armed... if you had a pet or a bot or were grouped. There's NO way it is the same math that the CU brought us... it wasn't the same system.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Originally posted by KenshuAni Regarding hanging out with your friends in the NGE. When I used my free 5 days (didn't bother with the other 10 days), I respected to a CL 61 toon. I was able to easily kill cl 80+ creatures. I've seen reports of people able to do that at much lower levels than I had. So there is no real point in grouping in the first place. I understand what you mean though. I was an opponent of levels determining the damage you did when the CU came out. I despise levels in MMORPGs. The progression of all MMORPGs (level based) 1) Log on 2) Grind 3) Reach max level 4) Quit That stopped being fun for me years ago.
Total Agree whit him ... I was playing WoW and quit because at lvl 60 what u have to do ? be on time for raid's ( since there are about 5 high lvl dungen ) u must wast many time of your personal live. i LOVE SWG Pre-CU because when u spend all Skill point's u could "forget" the professions u have and go for another ones, grind them and have fun whit them. on WoW if u make a new one u must go to grid to the same places over and over and that S***S. o SWG U have an vast space, many places to go and each one diferent then the other's. The craft ... i never seen an beutiful game for craft like SWG i simpley love it.
Beside the Combat System i still remenber on Beta Phase III of SWG, being on tant, bestine ppl forming hunting party's to grid, for fun and much more, the fun of seing lines that i have in front of me to craft bone armor for them hehe, i realy miss it and i think many ppl like me miss it as well
The main problem I have with combat levels (and Damage Multipliers) is ELITE and BOSS mobs, Pre-CU there was no such a thing as an ELITE or BOSS mob in the game (not deliberately labelled as such anyway), if they wanted to make a mob harder they just made it a higher level, however this is impossible with the current system, if you make the mob higher level it becomes impossible to do any damage due to the damage multiplier and of course you cant tank it since it'll do insane levels of damage to the players, so they call it an ELITE mob and up it's health to show it's supposed to take a group to kill, before we would know it needed a group because it was higher level.
Pre-CU the total level of a group would be the sum of all the levels of the members, divided by 2, since the highest a player could be was 25 the maximum level for a group of 20 would be 250 (more if you had high CL pets in the group) but it made no difference to the ability to deal/tank damage instead it made it possible to gauge what you were capable of tackling as a group. With the CU the level of the group was the level of the highest player (IIRC) so suddenly you weren't capable of taking on very high level mobs and so we got ELITE and BOSS mobs instead.
Okay you're thinking this doesn't seem like a problem, a Level 80 BOSS mob should require a group, but what about a Level 70 BOSS mob, before they turned off agro from grey mobs (and expanded the experience range), you could quite easily be attacked by one of these, lose your vehicle in one shot (damage multiplier FTW) then spend ages taking out a mob with lots of extra health for just 1XP because it's a BOSS level 70, before it might have been level 80 (or equivalent under Pre-CU) and worth the effort of revenge, now it's just an annoyance, it can barely damage you, but due to it's artifically inflated HAM it takes ages to kill it, and it's not worth trying to get a group because it's too low level to worry about, or you could run away on foot since you dont have a vehicle and cant call one because you're in combat.
Pre-CU the damage was based on the damage range of the weapon and attack vs defense, then the resists of the target, so a low level player could still damage a high level mob (at the low end of their damage range) and a group of them could take on higher level mobs easily, post CU a low level group could only take on low level mobs, trying to punch above your weight is pointless since the damage multiplier makes that impossible. Worse was being a single master in CU, you were level 54, you could wield decent weaponary, but a group of you couldn't take on a level 64 or 65 mob since all your damage would be removed by the multiplier, something you would have been able to do under the old system.
Also I've never understood the need for damage multipliers, surely the weapon should be determining the damage, I'm sure that if I shot someone with a gun that person would be just as dead as if he was shot by a fully trained soldier (note: I've never fired a real gun in my life), he might be more accurate, but a bullet doesn't magically change damage based on who is firing the shot, melee weapons I can sort of understand (although that should be based on strength, not level), but not ranged weapons, the whole idea of a ranged weapon is to take the power of the attack off the user and put it into the weapon itself. You might not be as accurate as someone trained in it's use, but the actual damage done will be pretty much the same, which is what the original system tried to simulate, of course with the NGE they seemed to remove the weapon from the equation all together and made it virtually all level based, yeah I'm sure that I can do as much damage with my fist as with a T-21 rifle.
Anyway I think I've gone on long enough.
PS I've been lurking here for a while, never got around to posting until tonight, and incase you haven't guessed I hate the NGE, tolerated the CU (it did make my Pistoleer/BH more powerful) and would love to see Pre-CU back, but dont hold out much hope of SoE doing that.
Nostaw Dudley - Pistoleer/BH SWG (Died of NGE) Nostaw - SoR (Undecided) Nostaw - Human Commando Auto Assault (In Limbo) MMO Future - Can't see anything I really wanna play.
Originally posted by dudleysoft The main problem I have with combat levels (and Damage Multipliers) is ELITE and BOSS mobs, Pre-CU there was no such a thing as an ELITE or BOSS mob in the game (not deliberately labelled as such anyway),
Armor rating. Heavy, such as on Krayts or Nova stormtroopers (I think), as well as Tusken observers and similar was equivalent to golden elite.
Medium armor rating would be equivalent to silver elite these days.
Not exactly the same, but it worked in a similar way.
Originally posted by rkabyrne Combat Levels (or any kind of leveling system) is GAY. Same with:
Quests instead of content. Professions instead of skills.
I concur with this post.
Classes, levels, handheld quests are the devil. MMO's and MMORPG's should be about freedom, not shoehorning the player into "halflife corridors" if you catch my drift.
There should be only a "beginning" in a game, not a beginning and a end.
Originally posted by FreelancerA4 Originally posted by wolfmann There should be only a "beginning" in a game, not a beginning and a end.
True, but few MMOs have managed to pull that off. Its debatable as to whether Galaxies could before the CU/NGE but it definitely can't now.
Most players want beginning and an end. The fact that they want it in an MMO is irrelevant. It'll stay like that until some new gameplay model is developed, that will cater to long-term playability, and even then all good things come to an end.
The currently best proposal is episodic content. Similar to sitcoms, which have short bursts of completely defined stories, yet manage to develop background over the lifetime of series.
Comments
Your level was still defined by what skills you had after the CU. The
entire way it calculated what level you were is by what skills you took
and not all skills were equal. Perhaps you have misunderstandings about
the CU's level system in regard to the skill system. The level system
in the CU was directly generated by the skill system not the other way
around. The damage modifier which I already brought up was what changed
things dramatically. And you then you spend 3 paragraphs argueing me
with my exact point.
Not quite.
Let's do a couple of thought experiments.
It's pre-CU. You are a Master Pikeman, Novice Marksman. You equip your pike. You look at the mission terminals. The mission terminal, when you scan it, checks your skills with the pike, determines you have 25 "skill boxes" in it (or whatever) and rates you as "effectively level 25." It then shows you a list of lairs to do that are "level 25 difficulty" -- i.e., a challenge for a Master Pikeman.
Now, still in pre-CU... unequip your pike and equip a pistol. Remember, you're novice marksman. Re-examine the mission terminal. It gives you a bunch of stuff that is level what? 25? No... level 6. Why? Because you are a novice marksman, and now have "effective level 6." You are playing the same exact character, but it's giving you different missions. Why? Because you are not "level 25" or "level 6". You are skilled differently in different weapons, and the game is dynamically computing your skill rating with the weapon in your hand each time you look at the mission terminal. And indeed, each time you hit a creature. After all, draw the level 6 mission with your pistol and go do it, and you'll get a few hundred XP in pistol for each kill. But equip your pike and kill those same creatures, and you get "1 xp" (if that). Why? Because they are not a challenge to an MPike with a pike in his hand, but they are a challenge to an MPike/Novice Marksman with a pistol in his hand. The game scanned what your weapon was, what the creature had for stats, and your current skill box list, each and every time you made a kill, before awarding XP. And so forth.
Now, let's fast-forward to June 2005. It's the CU.
You are Master Pike, level what was it 60 or something? And Novice Marksman as well. Now at level 60, holding a pike, you look at the mission term. It offers you... level 60. Makes sense. Now equip the pistol. Look at the mission term. What does it offer you? Level 60 targets! Why? Because you now have a "character level". What matters is that you have a mastery, any mastery, in any "combat" skill group. Which one does not matter. Once you have 2 you are "level capped" at 80 (or whatever it was -- hell I don't even remenber now) and it no longer matters what skills you use. Nor does the weapon matter. An MTKA/MSword could pick up a one-handed fencing weapon and do just as much damage as an MFencer/MSword, using TKA moves with the sword. Why? Because what matters is not what skill or what weapon you have but what level you are. I had an MTKA/Msword and fought unarmed all the time, using often the SWORD skills. Why? Because it did not matter, and I did "level 80 damage" with the sword skill regardless of what my other skills were.
This is a fundamentally different approach to the way the game played. It was NOT just "unmasking" the hidden level ranges from the players so we could see them. It turned the basic functioning of the game upside-down.
C
There is a difference between Character Level and Skill Level (or rank or whatever). In pre-CU, I could be "level 25" (effectively) in Sword and "level 1" (effectively) in Pistol. In post-CU, heck in any level-based game this is not true. In D&D a level 20 fighter is level 20 as a character, not just level 20 in fighting skills. He resists magic, at Character Level 20. He resists poison, at Character Level 20. He uses a sword, an axe, a club, heck even a spell scroll if he somehow could do it, at Character Level 20.
In a skill based game this is not true. If I am a Master Pistoleer (call it level 25 for the sake of argument in that skill) but Novice Brawler, and I have a hand-to-hand weapon equipped, I act not as a Master, but as a Novice. My skills are based on themselves, not my Character Level.
This is fundamentally different. You can perhaps more easily see it in the Saga of Ryzom, where it is skill based, but within skills, there are levels. My character is "Level 51" in melee combat, but "level 24" in defensive magic. If I use defensive magic in combat, my character's effectiveness in the fight, as well as the experience she will earn, is at level 24, not level 51. In a game based on Character Levels, you operate at the same level for ALL skills, essentially.
That's why post-CU and pre-CU are so different. Pre-CU, if an MTKA picked up a Pike, he did Novce Brawler (level 6) damage with it. Post-CU if an MTKA picked up a pike, he did MTKA (Level 60) damage with it. Same situation, two different schemes, two very different outcomes.
It is NOT just a semantic difference.
C
There might have been there, but they meant absolutely nothing. Didn't effect combat at all.. zero, zilch, nada.
It really wasn't a level, per se... due to the fact that it was effected by threat, and even what weapon you had armed... if you had a pet or a bot or were grouped. There's NO way it is the same math that the CU brought us... it wasn't the same system.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Total Agree whit him ... I was playing WoW and quit because at lvl 60 what u have to do ? be on time for raid's ( since there are about 5 high lvl dungen ) u must wast many time of your personal live. i LOVE SWG Pre-CU because when u spend all Skill point's u could "forget" the professions u have and go for another ones, grind them and have fun whit them. on WoW if u make a new one u must go to grid to the same places over and over and that S***S. o SWG U have an vast space, many places to go and each one diferent then the other's. The craft ... i never seen an beutiful game for craft like SWG i simpley love it.
Beside the Combat System i still remenber on Beta Phase III of SWG, being on tant, bestine ppl forming hunting party's to grid, for fun and much more, the fun of seing lines that i have in front of me to craft bone armor for them hehe, i realy miss it and i think many ppl like me miss it as well
Quests instead of content.
Professions instead of skills.
DM: Let me get this right: The dragons breath knocks you over the 300' cliff onto the jagged rocks below and you want a saving throw?
The main problem I have with combat levels (and Damage Multipliers) is ELITE and BOSS mobs, Pre-CU there was no such a thing as an ELITE or BOSS mob in the game (not deliberately labelled as such anyway), if they wanted to make a mob harder they just made it a higher level, however this is impossible with the current system, if you make the mob higher level it becomes impossible to do any damage due to the damage multiplier and of course you cant tank it since it'll do insane levels of damage to the players, so they call it an ELITE mob and up it's health to show it's supposed to take a group to kill, before we would know it needed a group because it was higher level.
Pre-CU the total level of a group would be the sum of all the levels of the members, divided by 2, since the highest a player could be was 25 the maximum level for a group of 20 would be 250 (more if you had high CL pets in the group) but it made no difference to the ability to deal/tank damage instead it made it possible to gauge what you were capable of tackling as a group. With the CU the level of the group was the level of the highest player (IIRC) so suddenly you weren't capable of taking on very high level mobs and so we got ELITE and BOSS mobs instead.
Okay you're thinking this doesn't seem like a problem, a Level 80 BOSS mob should require a group, but what about a Level 70 BOSS mob, before they turned off agro from grey mobs (and expanded the experience range), you could quite easily be attacked by one of these, lose your vehicle in one shot (damage multiplier FTW) then spend ages taking out a mob with lots of extra health for just 1XP because it's a BOSS level 70, before it might have been level 80 (or equivalent under Pre-CU) and worth the effort of revenge, now it's just an annoyance, it can barely damage you, but due to it's artifically inflated HAM it takes ages to kill it, and it's not worth trying to get a group because it's too low level to worry about, or you could run away on foot since you dont have a vehicle and cant call one because you're in combat.
Pre-CU the damage was based on the damage range of the weapon and attack vs defense, then the resists of the target, so a low level player could still damage a high level mob (at the low end of their damage range) and a group of them could take on higher level mobs easily, post CU a low level group could only take on low level mobs, trying to punch above your weight is pointless since the damage multiplier makes that impossible. Worse was being a single master in CU, you were level 54, you could wield decent weaponary, but a group of you couldn't take on a level 64 or 65 mob since all your damage would be removed by the multiplier, something you would have been able to do under the old system.
Also I've never understood the need for damage multipliers, surely the weapon should be determining the damage, I'm sure that if I shot someone with a gun that person would be just as dead as if he was shot by a fully trained soldier (note: I've never fired a real gun in my life), he might be more accurate, but a bullet doesn't magically change damage based on who is firing the shot, melee weapons I can sort of understand (although that should be based on strength, not level), but not ranged weapons, the whole idea of a ranged weapon is to take the power of the attack off the user and put it into the weapon itself. You might not be as accurate as someone trained in it's use, but the actual damage done will be pretty much the same, which is what the original system tried to simulate, of course with the NGE they seemed to remove the weapon from the equation all together and made it virtually all level based, yeah I'm sure that I can do as much damage with my fist as with a T-21 rifle.
Anyway I think I've gone on long enough.
PS I've been lurking here for a while, never got around to posting until tonight, and incase you haven't guessed I hate the NGE, tolerated the CU (it did make my Pistoleer/BH more powerful) and would love to see Pre-CU back, but dont hold out much hope of SoE doing that.
Nostaw Dudley - Pistoleer/BH SWG (Died of NGE)
Nostaw - SoR (Undecided)
Nostaw - Human Commando Auto Assault (In Limbo)
MMO Future - Can't see anything I really wanna play.
Medium armor rating would be equivalent to silver elite these days.
Not exactly the same, but it worked in a similar way.
I concur with this post.
Classes, levels, handheld quests are the devil. MMO's and MMORPG's should be about freedom, not shoehorning the player into "halflife corridors" if you catch my drift.
There should be only a "beginning" in a game, not a beginning and a end.
Most players want beginning and an end. The fact that they want it in an MMO is irrelevant. It'll stay like that until some new gameplay model is developed, that will cater to long-term playability, and even then all good things come to an end.
The currently best proposal is episodic content. Similar to sitcoms, which have short bursts of completely defined stories, yet manage to develop background over the lifetime of series.