WOW is way successful from a commercial viewpoint so thats what they make. The clones are the majority of MMORPG's out so thats what people play. Most people are playing WOW clones so thats what the publishers will fund.
However the future is looking up, there are a few non wow clones coming out in the near future. The ones I am interested in are:
- Tabula Rasa - Hero's Journey (and by the way Bioware just licensed this engine)
And maybe Stargate and Startrek as I am a big fan of those I.P's.
Bioware ! love those guys. Some people (maybe BW do) have ethics and love what They do and Videogames.. so Their goal is not just making money but also contribute for the evolution of the genre.
Anyway to take the discussion back to the point, a game this much centered into a fight against invaders and with a background as rich as this one, can't allow people to play carelessly... this game must be like a raid in Blackwing Lair done for no other reason than defeating the enemy. And to ensure there will be no power-playing, I must be able to handle char growth distributing numbers to the char stats randomly with no care and still be as powerful as an optimization maniac, one of those guys who never drop a calculator .
Originally posted by Gylfi Anyway to take the discussion back to the point, a game this much centered into a fight against invaders and with a background as rich as this one, can't allow people to play carelessly... this game must be like a raid in Blackwing Lair done for no other reason than defeating the enemy.
Why? If the only purpose is to defeat the enemy - lure them in then nuke them till they glow. Why run around at all.
Aah - I see the objective is not just to defeat the enemy but to save the particular planet.
Also I think T.R should introduce sex into the game . I mean if all the men are killed fighting the human race is gone. The same if all the women are killed. Give us some missions that further contact with the Eloh, let us think about the bigger picture.
Also in any fight - even between trained armies some people are going to be more concerned with saving themselves than killing the enemy, or freak out, or suffer battle shock etc.
Originally posted by Gylfi And to ensure there will be no power-playing, I must be able to handle char growth distributing numbers to the char stats randomly with no care and still be as powerful as an optimization maniac, one of those guys who never drop a calculator .
Again why? If thats true - the game would just do the stat allocation for you and you wouldnt be able to change it.
Some people want to play gimped characters. They want the extra challenge of overcoming adversity with a severe disadvantage.
1) If gameplay is good and varied, it's enuff a reason to play ,with no need for gear and Exp , such reasons , like in WoW ,provide the way to "hide" and "justify" the stupidity of the gameplay itself.
I'll try to forget the Sex stuff...
Any reason is good apart from anything related to Farming/Grinding
2) But that's what I'm saying ain't i ? I spend points randomly and make a random character to be gimped and yet manage fight totally well , thus giving no reason for geeky optmization . Where did I say that it's the comp that allocates the points ?
You didnt say the comp did the allocation. I was saying if the end result is the same no matter how you allocate the points - then the game should just have the computer do it. Not that I think this is a good idea.
I think people should be able to deliberately gimp their character if that is their intention.
Of course being able to accidently gimp your character because you dont know what you are doing is a real pain in the ..... but I think T.R addresses this well by having everyone start as recruits and learn the game before they start having to make choices about class.
I see your point, but choosing randomly also means you'll have a "unique" character you're gonna have to "live with" copying with him and that's interesting....it's not just something pointless that the comp can do, it has consequences , and it's certainly more interesting than making the perfect soulless war machine,cause as you know EVERYone will copy the same template... this has to be avoided at all costs.
As for me , I will pick a random class with random stats and everything... I don't care. If gameplay is solid I will have fun in any case, because in an RP what counts is wits, not skill in mathematics.
Originally posted by Gylfi 1) If gameplay is good and varied, it's enuff a reason to play ,with no need for gear and Exp , such reasons , like in WoW ,provide the way to "hide" and "justify" the stupidity of the gameplay itself. I'll try to forget the Sex stuff... Any reason is good apart from anything related to Farming/Grinding
Gameplay that is varied and challenging enough to make the gear and Exp secondary would certainly be welcome. In a pure PvE game, however, it is also quite difficult for the developers. In the MMORPGs I have tried so far, the mobs were not much of a tactical challenge. Some newer single player games, however, have shown that smarter AI is possible. I hope the TR devs can achieve that without running out of server side computing power .
Considering the skill point allocation, I always considered the manual spending of points a bit of an immersion breaker. What I'd like to see is a system where skills rise after using them for a while, without a cap on the total number of skills you can master (there could still be caps on the individual skills, depending on class). Maybe even without an exact metric that is shown to the player, but only hints when interacting with the environment. The hints could read like this:
"The Archer & Wesson .40 Magnum is a powerful pistol, but as a beginner you might find its recoil a bit much" "The Archer & Wesson .40 Magnum is a powerful pistol, but you should have enough experience to handle it" "The Archer & Wesson .40 Magnum is a powerful pistol, just the thing for a pistol expert like you"
I so agree, PvE itself normally calls for a "training" stance rather than anything but since this game is entirely PvE centered, It's probably gonna be much more "binding" and hard and for this reason You won't have "time" to think about grinding as you're gonna put all the efforts into the action itself...i wish it to be as difficult intellectually as a puzzle adventure can be (eg. Gabriel Knight style), and not "difficulty=patience" as It is for most of the mmog's out there.
- Yes It's a nice Skill system, that one , yet old , as We remember it well in Ultima O., It's oriented to full realism (and that's why you said that allocating is immersion breaker), but maybe TR isn't really meant to be totally realistic as much as new and compelling , so I'd like to see a brand new levelling mechanics, not just distributing numbers to skills and attributes, neither a VERY old ultima system like the one you describe.
I think most developers, including Richard Garriot, understand that PvE should be more diverse and have more tactical depth. Especially in PvE-only games. The question is if the TR devs can pull it off with the ressources at their disposal. Ressources means not only developer skills, but also the computing power that is affordable on the server side. But since the computing power you can buy per 1000$ is increasing each year, I'm reservedly optimistic
About the skill system, old is not automatically bad. Just look at the solution and see if it matches your needs. Somwhere I've picked up a nice adage I fully agree with: "There are two kinds of fools. One says 'this is old and therefore good'. The other says 'this is new and therefore better'."
This said, I think some missions to unlock new abilities and weapons would be an interesting idea (WOW and Auto Assault already do this to unlock new areas of the game world). For instance, in TR there could be "qualification missions" after level 10 to enter the soldier or specialist path. Just don't overuse it, else it will become just as stale as old-fashioned grinding.
I don't think a brilliant idea for gameplay concept is expensive, genius never is... it's the technical stuffing that does... PvE should be intellectually challenging and full of intriguing puzzles, and deep enuff that you cannot do them carelessly just for the prize... or automatically We got grinding ,that is when something's relatively easy and it just needs time and patience... there's a most delicate boundary between typical single player style, always different ,new and exciting , and multiplayer gaming, most of the times done for the final prize of the "über level cap".
nice motto but there's also me who tried the old and am tired of it and now i wanna see a renaissance, a new way to consider character growth ,so let's forget what we learned and start again "razing the board" (correct translation of Tabula Rasa )
The "qualification" WOULD become grinding, the mere term makes me think of sports, if something becomes a sport We just as fast forget about ethics.
I would love to see more depth within missions, including puzzles. The only problem is, once someone beats it they'll write a guide for it then anyone could beat it no problem. THe puzzle would have to be randomized at least.
I just pray that the game does not have that same 5 different missions over and over again with different text and monsters slapped on each time. Please, no multiple "kill XX amount of Bane" or "Find XX amount of minerals" missions. I understand making all content orignal is impossible, but the greater amount of orginal core missions, the better.
Originally posted by Nuggsy I would love to see more depth within missions, including puzzles. The only problem is, once someone beats it they'll write a guide for it then anyone could beat it no problem. THe puzzle would have to be randomized at least.
I just pray that the game does not have that same 5 different missions over and over again with different text and monsters slapped on each time. Please, no multiple "kill XX amount of Bane" or "Find XX amount of minerals" missions. I understand making all content orignal is impossible, but the greater amount of orginal core missions, the better.
I hear you. But in the E3 clip he clearly states there won't be that kind of quests so don't worry, He defines them "farming"
Originally posted by Gylfi I don't think a brilliant idea for gameplay concept is expensive, genius never is... it's the technical stuffing that does... PvE should be intellectually challenging and full of intriguing puzzles, and deep enuff that you cannot do them carelessly just for the prize... or automatically
True, the idea is cheap once you have it. Let's assume for the moment that Richard Garriott can pop out plenty of good ideas. But making it work comes under technical stuffing and can be quite expensive indeed. For instance, I was thinking of decent mob AI to make PvE more challenging. For that you need: -Competent developers who understand games AI. Not simple code monkeys who can only implement specs. Highly qualified employees tend to be expensive. -Even if they get it right, the algorithm may need plenty of CPU power. Like chess programs which can never have too much CPU at their disposal. At that point, you have to ask yourself: How much server hardware per 1000 subscribers do I need for that feature? Can I afford this without ruining the bottom line? (remember, MMORPG companies are in it for the money).
So the economic angle is very real, and I suspect it is the main reason we have not seen many smart mobs in MMORPGs so far. Because single player games like Call Of Duty or Far Cry prove it is possible.
No i'm sorry You can't pick an example like AI and with it generalize about a good idea being expensive, AI isn't good enuff to do that. Concerning AI, Personally I ve always thought it is a bit of a waste of time, i never ever considered it in a game as long as it's "sufficient" so to speak, infact for this reason AI was already good ages ago... I'm playing Fallout Tactics (almost done!) and i find the AI to be slightly NAÏF cause you can fool it using a bit of brains and tactics yet it 's GOOD that it works like that ! i don't want life-like intelligence , it's madness and yeah i guess it's expensive.. the designers of these new silly games like SIN should think about new game structures and mechanics, not crazy AI's , cause AI doesn't ever help realizing a good gameplay idea, it's barely decorative... and bad at that cause the more "DISCRETE" it will be ,the better ! good AI can already be found in many old RTS like Starcraft and C&C (where the AI really matters), so it won't cost a thing.
Good ideas cost nothing, and Ron Gilbert was saying that in an interview for Gamasutra , check it out... Basically He 's telling how publishers won't finance him cause his new game costs too few.
To the OP: I've heard (as I'm sure many of you have) that this combat system is a blend of rpg and fps. Now, I'm not exactly sure what they [developers] mean by that, but it sounds like it's a system similar to the semi-fps on "FF7 Dirge of Cerberus": you don't need exact aim to hit a target, but the better you aim, the more damage you do and provide a greater chance of a critical hit. If anyone has heard more on how this system works, please share.
The system is auto-aim, so if you move the cross-hair near the target it will lock on.
From memory - you will always hit the target, but the damage done is based on your characters skill with the weapon, some sort of hit roll, as well as if you are moving, standing still and probably some other stuff.
So the more skilled your character is, the more damage you do.
Comments
its kind of a catch 22.
WOW is way successful from a commercial viewpoint so thats what they make. The clones are the majority of MMORPG's out so thats what people play. Most people are playing WOW clones so thats what the publishers will fund.
However the future is looking up, there are a few non wow clones coming out in the near future. The ones I am interested in are:
- Tabula Rasa
- Hero's Journey (and by the way Bioware just licensed this engine)
And maybe Stargate and Startrek as I am a big fan of those I.P's.
Bioware ! love those guys. Some people (maybe BW do) have ethics and love what They do and Videogames.. so Their goal is not just making money but also contribute for the evolution of the genre.
Anyway to take the discussion back to the point, a game this much centered into a fight against invaders and with a background as rich as this one, can't allow people to play carelessly... this game must be like a raid in Blackwing Lair done for no other reason than defeating the enemy. And to ensure there will be no power-playing, I must be able to handle char growth distributing numbers to the char stats randomly with no care and still be as powerful as an optimization maniac, one of those guys who never drop a calculator .
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Why? If the only purpose is to defeat the enemy - lure them in then nuke them till they glow. Why run around at all.
Aah - I see the objective is not just to defeat the enemy but to save the particular planet.
Also I think T.R should introduce sex into the game
. I mean if all the men are killed fighting the human race is gone. The same if all the women are killed. Give us some missions that further contact with the Eloh, let us think about the bigger picture.
Also in any fight - even between trained armies some people are going to be more concerned with saving themselves than killing the enemy, or freak out, or suffer battle shock etc.
Again why? If thats true - the game would just do the stat allocation for you and you wouldnt be able to change it.
Some people want to play gimped characters. They want the extra challenge of overcoming adversity with a severe disadvantage.
1) If gameplay is good and varied, it's enuff a reason to play ,with no need for gear and Exp , such reasons , like in WoW ,provide the way to "hide" and "justify" the stupidity of the gameplay itself.
I'll try to forget the Sex stuff...
Any reason is good apart from anything related to Farming/Grinding
2) But that's what I'm saying ain't i ? I spend points randomly and make a random character to be gimped and yet manage fight totally well , thus giving no reason for geeky optmization . Where did I say that it's the comp that allocates the points ?
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You didnt say the comp did the allocation. I was saying if the end result is the same no matter how you allocate the points - then the game should just have the computer do it. Not that I think this is a good idea.
I think people should be able to deliberately gimp their character if that is their intention.
Of course being able to accidently gimp your character because you dont know what you are doing is a real pain in the ..... but I think T.R addresses this well by having everyone start as recruits and learn the game before they start having to make choices about class.
I see your point, but choosing randomly also means you'll have a "unique" character you're gonna have to "live with" copying with him and that's interesting....it's not just something pointless that the comp can do, it has consequences , and it's certainly more interesting than making the perfect soulless war machine,cause as you know EVERYone will copy the same template... this has to be avoided at all costs.
As for me , I will pick a random class with random stats and everything... I don't care. If gameplay is solid I will have fun in any case, because in an RP what counts is wits, not skill in mathematics.
the best blog of the net
Some newer single player games, however, have shown that smarter AI is possible. I hope the TR devs can achieve that without running out of server side computing power
Considering the skill point allocation, I always considered the manual spending of points a bit of an immersion breaker. What I'd like to see is a system where skills rise after using them for a while, without a cap on the total number of skills you can master (there could still be caps on the individual skills, depending on class).
Maybe even without an exact metric that is shown to the player, but only hints when interacting with the environment. The hints could read like this:
"The Archer & Wesson .40 Magnum is a powerful pistol, but as a beginner you might find its recoil a bit much"
"The Archer & Wesson .40 Magnum is a powerful pistol, but you should have enough experience to handle it"
"The Archer & Wesson .40 Magnum is a powerful pistol, just the thing for a pistol expert like you"
I so agree, PvE itself normally calls for a "training" stance rather than anything but since this game is entirely PvE centered, It's probably gonna be much more "binding" and hard and for this reason You won't have "time" to think about grinding as you're gonna put all the efforts into the action itself...i wish it to be as difficult intellectually as a puzzle adventure can be (eg. Gabriel Knight style), and not "difficulty=patience" as It is for most of the mmog's out there.
- Yes It's a nice Skill system, that one , yet old , as We remember it well in Ultima O., It's oriented to full realism (and that's why you said that allocating is immersion breaker), but maybe TR isn't really meant to be totally realistic as much as new and compelling , so I'd like to see a brand new levelling mechanics, not just distributing numbers to skills and attributes, neither a VERY old ultima system like the one you describe.
the best blog of the net
I think most developers, including Richard Garriot, understand that PvE should be more diverse and have more tactical depth. Especially in PvE-only games. The question is if the TR devs can pull it off with the ressources at their disposal. Ressources means not only developer skills, but also the computing power that is affordable on the server side.
But since the computing power you can buy per 1000$ is increasing each year, I'm reservedly optimistic
About the skill system, old is not automatically bad. Just look at the solution and see if it matches your needs. Somwhere I've picked up a nice adage I fully agree with:
"There are two kinds of fools. One says 'this is old and therefore good'. The other says 'this is new and therefore better'."
This said, I think some missions to unlock new abilities and weapons would be an interesting idea (WOW and Auto Assault already do this to unlock new areas of the game world). For instance, in TR there could be "qualification missions" after level 10 to enter the soldier or specialist path. Just don't overuse it, else it will become just as stale as old-fashioned grinding.
I don't think a brilliant idea for gameplay concept is expensive, genius never is... it's the technical stuffing that does... PvE should be intellectually challenging and full of intriguing puzzles, and deep enuff that you cannot do them carelessly just for the prize... or automatically We got grinding ,that is when something's relatively easy and it just needs time and patience... there's a most delicate boundary between typical single player style, always different ,new and exciting , and multiplayer gaming, most of the times done for the final prize of the "über level cap".
nice motto but there's also me who tried the old and am tired of it and now i wanna see a renaissance, a new way to consider character growth ,so let's forget what we learned and start again "razing the board" (correct translation of Tabula Rasa
)
The "qualification" WOULD become grinding, the mere term makes me think of sports, if something becomes a sport We just as fast forget about ethics.
the best blog of the net
I just pray that the game does not have that same 5 different missions over and over again with different text and monsters slapped on each time. Please, no multiple "kill XX amount of Bane" or "Find XX amount of minerals" missions. I understand making all content orignal is impossible, but the greater amount of orginal core missions, the better.
I hear you. But in the E3 clip he clearly states there won't be that kind of quests so don't worry, He defines them "farming"
I hate 'em too.
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But making it work comes under technical stuffing and can be quite expensive indeed. For instance, I was thinking of decent mob AI to make PvE more challenging. For that you need:
-Competent developers who understand games AI. Not simple code monkeys who can only implement specs. Highly qualified employees tend to be expensive.
-Even if they get it right, the algorithm may need plenty of CPU power. Like chess programs which can never have too much CPU at their disposal. At that point, you have to ask yourself:
How much server hardware per 1000 subscribers do I need for that feature?
Can I afford this without ruining the bottom line? (remember, MMORPG companies are in it for the money).
So the economic angle is very real, and I suspect it is the main reason we have not seen many smart mobs in MMORPGs so far. Because single player games like Call Of Duty or Far Cry prove it is possible.
No i'm sorry You can't pick an example like AI and with it generalize about a good idea being expensive, AI isn't good enuff to do that. Concerning AI, Personally I ve always thought it is a bit of a waste of time, i never ever considered it in a game as long as it's "sufficient" so to speak, infact for this reason AI was already good ages ago... I'm playing Fallout Tactics (almost done!) and i find the AI to be slightly NAÏF cause you can fool it using a bit of brains and tactics yet it 's GOOD that it works like that ! i don't want life-like intelligence , it's madness and yeah i guess it's expensive.. the designers of these new silly games like SIN should think about new game structures and mechanics, not crazy AI's , cause AI doesn't ever help realizing a good gameplay idea, it's barely decorative... and bad at that cause the more "DISCRETE" it will be ,the better ! good AI can already be found in many old RTS like Starcraft and C&C (where the AI really matters), so it won't cost a thing.
Good ideas cost nothing, and Ron Gilbert was saying that in an interview for Gamasutra , check it out... Basically He 's telling how publishers won't finance him cause his new game costs too few.
the best blog of the net
Je mettrai l'amour sur dos de moi.
The system is auto-aim, so if you move the cross-hair near the target it will lock on.
From memory - you will always hit the target, but the damage done is based on your characters skill with the weapon, some sort of hit roll, as well as if you are moving, standing still and probably some other stuff.
So the more skilled your character is, the more damage you do.