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Force_choke
Member Posts: 55
Since the code went open source, do you think this will affect SOEs stance on pre cu servers?
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it should do with time, when people who code start working on it.
In my job there are 12 people who all played SWG and miss PRE-CU.
We develop software C++ BASED vs Oracle Data Base. Yesterday after work we went to drink some beers after finishing a 1 year project and talked about this Emu code going out, and we all agreed " it is a pity we have so much work cause if we hadnt sure when we arrived home we would start studying to help code that open source code; but of course after having coded at work for so many hours sure when you arrive home you dont feel like coding again hehehe (besides wife,children,cat etc etc...)
But sure there will be people with enough knowledge of C++ AND DataBases who will try help the EMU code.
it is just a matter of time for more people to join coding and working on that code.
To tell you the truth I dont know untill where this all will get to,cause it depends of many things but as I say "Union makes the force". I wish EMU team succeed ,at least to a point where they can harm SOE.
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I say: ROFL
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The game is at least 2-3 monts from having the basic systems in and playable, but that can get to be shorter based on how many capable coders help.
At the latest we have private pre-CU servers up with a playable game by late fall/early winter. Anyone want to bet that the emulator is going before or after they get the profession revamps done in NGE?
Wait? Where do you see the old code going open source?
PLEASE give me a link.
-- I missed this big thing if indeed it really did.
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Open source is code publically given that was created from scratch... These guys have publically asked people to send them data packets from old SWG clients.... So how is this open source?
Originally posted by maxanto
Originally posted by Force_choke
Since the code went open source, do you think this will affect SOEs stance on pre cu servers?
It is not open source, it is stolen code... please remember there is a huge difference from what these guys pirated and what open source is.Open source is code publically given that was created from scratch... These guys have publically asked people to send them data packets from old SWG clients.... So how is this open source?
The data packets were necessary to understand the languaje between the clients and the servers. Once they learnt it they made the same responses through a different set of commands. I think it's called reverse engineering. They have not copied any code because for that they should steal the damned server (which by the way has been offline since april of 2005) or the source code from SoE.
Reverse enginering is a euphemism for stolen. If it is not written from scratch then it is stolen. Black and white.
Open source is code publically given that was created from scratch... These guys have publically asked people to send them data packets from old SWG clients.... So how is this open source?
Now I could be completely wrong, but from what I understood they are creating this emu code. They dont have access to SOE's server code, hence the fact they are trying to "emulate" the SWG servers. From my limited knowledge on the subject, I understand it as something kinda like this...
Client sends info "1+1" to the SWG server, and the server sends back to the client info "=2".
So SOE's server code is what is giving out info/answers to the client based on info the client is sending them, and so on. All an "emulator" server does is mimic what the official server would do, but that doesnt mean the code is exactally the same as the official servers. What I mean is that to emulate the server all you need to do is make sure that when the client sends the "1+1" your emulator server returns the same answer as the official server would, "=2", the actual code you use to get to that end point answer can vary. All you need is a server code that acts just like the SWG server code. Kinda like 2 people driving to the same destination, but each is using a different road to get there, both will get you to the same place, even though they used different methods to do it.
Like I said, I could be completely wrong, lol, but this was how I understood the basics of what the emu team was attempting to do. They are trying to "emulate" what the SWG servers would do during preCU, but one would still need to own a copy of SWG to play those emu servers. So, Im unsure what exactally is being "stolen" here, but like I said, this isnt exactally my area of expertise so feel free to educate me on the subject, lol.
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We're fine. We're all fine here now, thank you. How are you?"
Originally posted by maxanto
Originally posted by oreyi
The data packets were necessary to understand the languaje between the clients and the servers. Once they learnt it they made the same responses through a different set of commands. I think it's called reverse engineering. They have not copied any code because for that they should steal the damned server (which by the way has been offline since april of 2005) or the source code from SoE.
Oreyi can you learn how to use the quote feature here properly please. Reverse enginering is a euphemism for stolen. If it is not written from scratch then it is stolen. Black and white.
Hehe I guess something is wrong in my new opera, if I use the enhanced editor it doesn't post anything I write (although it quotes the original message ^^)
So, AMD K7 is a processor based on stealing information from Intel, or reverse engineered?
Becuase it's compatible with it's software, it just does it with a different set of transistors....
Same dish, slightly different recipe...
Anyway not that I mind stealing SoE
Reverse enginering is a euphemism for stolen. If it is not written from scratch then it is stolen. Black and white.
The code WAS written from scratch. If any of it resembles SOE's server-side code, it's purely functional and coincidental. They did not have access to SOE's server source. Nobody but SOE does. They did, however, have access to packet traces which explain the language the client and server used to talk to each other. The part you pay for is the client, which they tell everyone you should pay for (and you should). Illegal SWG client downloads are not going to be supported. You have to buy SOE's software to make this work... if you don't, you cannot play, plain and simple.
There's a sucker born every minute. - P.T. Barnum
Reverse enginering is a euphemism for stolen. If it is not written from scratch then it is stolen. Black and white.
Tell that to Microsoft when they "reverse engineered" IE from Netscape.
Or Word from Word Perfect
Or Windows from Mac OS
Or Media Player from Quicktime...
Need I go further?
The code is clearly written from ground up, but they NEEDED to know how the client side game communicates with the servers and such. It's like learning the same language, just writing sentances differently. The code is radically different but it does the same thing.
Like when you created a program in basic... you could write it like 50 ways to do the same thing.. doesn't mean the program is the same.
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It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
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09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
I am not your baby, sorry to squash your dreams.
Since they are using TRE's from SOE they are in fact NOT RE'ing anything but stealing
So OssirisWard please tell me how taking TRE' files is not theft?
Reverse enginering is a euphemism for stolen. If it is not written from scratch then it is stolen. Black and white.
The code WAS written from scratch. If any of it resembles SOE's server-side code, it's purely functional and coincidental. They did not have access to SOE's server source. Nobody but SOE does. They did, however, have access to packet traces which explain the language the client and server used to talk to each other. The part you pay for is the client, which they tell everyone you should pay for (and you should). Illegal SWG client downloads are not going to be supported. You have to buy SOE's software to make this work... if you don't, you cannot play, plain and simple.
I took this as evidense from their own forum:
"I think they got all the .tre files they could ever use right from SOE lol."
Next question?
Reverse enginering is a euphemism for stolen. If it is not written from scratch then it is stolen. Black and white.
The code WAS written from scratch. If any of it resembles SOE's server-side code, it's purely functional and coincidental. They did not have access to SOE's server source. Nobody but SOE does. They did, however, have access to packet traces which explain the language the client and server used to talk to each other. The part you pay for is the client, which they tell everyone you should pay for (and you should). Illegal SWG client downloads are not going to be supported. You have to buy SOE's software to make this work... if you don't, you cannot play, plain and simple.
I took this as evidense from their own forum:
"I think they got all the .tre files they could ever use right from SOE lol."
Next question?
What? TRE files are clientside. They're in EVERY SWG installation.
I answer rehtorical questions.
Open source is code publically given that was created from scratch... These guys have publically asked people to send them data packets from old SWG clients.... So how is this open source?
This program has just gone open source - it is a server program built from the ground up, it just so happens a person can use the SWG client to connect to it - why has no-one tried to stop it ? how can they prove they stole the origanal when it no longer even resembles it.
SOE/LA would love to stop this but they need shown how to program SWG efficiently and this (Brand New) program may just show them how.
I am not your baby, sorry to squash your dreams.
Since they are using TRE's from SOE they are in fact NOT RE'ing anything but stealing
So OssirisWard please tell me how taking TRE' files is not theft?
TRE files are clientside, and are not taken from SOE.....Let me try and put it in a way you can understand it a little better....TRE files are NOT even needed to reverse engineer SWG....All they do is speed up the reverse engineering!!!!
So how is that stealing again?
And strictly off topic, you're not going to tell me that the "American Satellite" that I purchased off of a police officer here in Canada is illegal are you? Max, I bet you are the type of person that closes his eyes when he passes a Drive in movie screen in the distance because you feel guilty you didn't pay.....come on, admit it....
Since they are using TRE's from SOE they are in fact NOT RE'ing anything but stealing
So OssirisWard please tell me how taking TRE' files is not theft?
TRE files are distributed with each copy. Since you paid for it, it's in your posession.
Then there's EULA, which determines the right of exploitation of the software. EULA does forbid reverse engineering. But EULA is not legally binding. Nor it is a law, it's just an agreement, that applies to "account" (important here). If you violate it, you invalidate your CD-Key and associated account.
Distributing any and all parts of the digital content of disks is prohibited under DMCA and other copyright laws (these are indeed laws).
Reverse engineering, while getting pressed on by legislation, does not apply here. The protocol was obtained from network traffic, and not through any action taken against client or server. Think wiretap. DMCA has already been proven to not hold against it (precendets exist).
Interoperability is also not covered under DMCA. Implementing the protocol, in order to fool the client is not illegal (precendets exist).
Content is covered under copyright (names, textures, meshes, terrain, quests, NPCs, etc.). Once again, distribution is the problem here, not local use.
Client and client files are covered under copyright, which applies to distribution, use and modification. Modifying clientside files is not illegal, as long as they aren't distributed. Distributing modified content represents two possible violations. If using the formats, resources and data types provided by SWG client, you're violating the copyrights of SWG software authors. If you distribute new SW related content, you're violating LEC copyright (very very bad thing).
In both cases, it's distribution that's the problem. Whatever you do yourself is irrelevant.
Modifying client to connect to different server only violates EULA, since it applies to configuration files. These files are in standard format, and as such can be modified by standard tools (well, Notepad, it's an ini file).
There is however a potential legal issue in their source. It's present in the form of station pass session ID. That key is generated based on user's account and servers authentication certificate (or something similar), whereas the emulator uses a hardcoded value. This would fall under impersonation issues, which are quite delicate here, and not covered under reverse engineering. Of course, they could always claim that it was a string of bytes, so they were unaware of the consequences of spoofing that particular piece of data.
EULA's do not substitute for nor can they contradict copyright law. Shrinkwrap click thru EULA's also themselves are of questionable legality.
Simply put you are not breaking the law if you reverse engineer yourself a server to talk to the client as long as you do not steal their SERVER CODE to do it, nor charge for the online service (that would violate LEC's copyrights).
Also, the emulator requires you to buy and use a legal client, which is the same as buying a copy of any other game.
To argue that you can't use the client with another server when you purchased it legally is about as ridiculous as stating that you can't buy a Sony music CD and play it on a non Sony CD player if they had some notice under the shrinkwrap, unreadable until you've opened the package and made the thing un returnable.
Furthermore, an argument in the emulator user/developer's favor is that the game that they are emulating (and that the users bought) is so significantly different from what is on the live servers right now as to not be the same game, and that Sony will not offer the service of that version of the game, that the users bought.
As for hidden licenses: That's how most software today is distributed. The best example is this:
- License is stored inside the box
- Opening the box without agreeing to license is a declared a violation of authorized use as stated in license
- Hence, opening a box in order to read license and agree to it violates the license itself.
When confronted, responsible have no comment on this, and suggest you simply agree to the contract blindly. So far, it has yet to be enforced.
They let the precu code go open source?
That's amazing. We are talking about the company that wouldn't release FF3 to emu like every other company did ages ago.
You're right max. I talked to Marc Cohen (the host for KABC ComputerShow and his guest "Kevin", about the coding and legalities of the EMU. Unless the coders start from scratch, they are violating copyright laws. PERIOD. There was some big to do with Microsoft a few years ago about this issue. Marc told me he would look further into it.
I want PRE CU back just as bad as the next vet, but I'm not going to break any laws to play some game. Marc's guest on the show was an avid programmer and gamer. Though he said he does not play any SOE labels, he did say that he plays others. His take was that there are legal issues if the coders did not start from scratch. SOE devs are not worried. Their attorneys are chompin' at the bit for the EMU to go live.
"I'm not a racist...I only hate stupid people..."-SinisterCB
LOL you want to get techinical about stolen codes lets talk about bill gates and windows itself lmao. He stole the code from apple. So excuse me if i dont cry a river for poor SOE/LA who are such an honest upfront company. This is there own fault and even know they still dont catch on. All they had to do is read there own forums and clean out there ears but no instead they blow money and time with summits that dont accomplish much but anger management with playerbase. This game i think in the future will be used by programming schools and game makers of what not to do in the gaming business. I do recall though the Galaxy report emu guy saying we were supose to be able to play on a dummy server but i dont see how or where to go to do it?
We're sitting in our offices thinking of ways to upset our paying customers. I think were on track to meet that goal.
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