we are all living in only one dimension which contains everything we see and don't see.
3D or 2D, this is somethingwe percieved when we made things on computers, so you know what? we have to stop being so dumb, and stop comparing real life, and the 7 universes to something we humans made on a computer.
infinity? i have you seen anything that goes with that so far? man hell, even planets are not infinite, there are billions of stars exploding every once in a while in this Gaigantically vast universe.
heck, even the universe itself is finite, people dieing, stars dieing, new stars are born, new people are born, blah blah ETC ETC.
what i'm trying to say is, infinity does not exist :}
Originally posted by OneMuslim do you know what's sad? we are all living in only one dimension which contains everything we see and don't see. 3D or 2D, this is somethingwe percieved when we made things on computers, so you know what? we have to stop being so dumb, and stop comparing real life, and the 7 universes to something we humans made on a computer. infinity? i have you seen anything that goes with that so far? man hell, even planets are not infinite, there are billions of stars exploding every once in a while in this Gaigantically vast universe. heck, even the universe itself is finite, people dieing, stars dieing, new stars are born, new people are born, blah blah ETC ETC. what i'm trying to say is, infinity does not exist :}
And why, exactly, should we believe anything you say? There is no logic there.
Originally posted by OneMuslim do you know what's sad? we are all living in only one dimension which contains everything we see and don't see. 3D or 2D, this is somethingwe percieved when we made things on computers, so you know what? we have to stop being so dumb, and stop comparing real life, and the 7 universes to something we humans made on a computer. infinity? i have you seen anything that goes with that so far? man hell, even planets are not infinite, there are billions of stars exploding every once in a while in this Gaigantically vast universe. heck, even the universe itself is finite, people dieing, stars dieing, new stars are born, new people are born, blah blah ETC ETC. what i'm trying to say is, infinity does not exist :}
Originally posted by Xzaro Originally posted by OneMuslim do you know what's sad? we are all living in only one dimension which contains everything we see and don't see. 3D or 2D, this is somethingwe percieved when we made things on computers, so you know what? we have to stop being so dumb, and stop comparing real life, and the 7 universes to something we humans made on a computer. infinity? i have you seen anything that goes with that so far? man hell, even planets are not infinite, there are billions of stars exploding every once in a while in this Gaigantically vast universe. heck, even the universe itself is finite, people dieing, stars dieing, new stars are born, new people are born, blah blah ETC ETC. what i'm trying to say is, infinity does not exist :}
And why, exactly, should we believe anything you say? There is no logic there.
Don't worry Xzaro, Onemuslim gets pretty high on a little thing I call religion.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
true, but a circle is not how the universe runs, everything has a life span, and the circle can be cut at anywhere, right? How did scissors get into the infinity equation?
Anyways change is infinite. haha argue that....sad thing is I bet you will.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Originally posted by cloudoffire Originally posted by OneMuslim
Originally posted by AlexAmore How did scissors get into the infinity equation?
Anyways change is infinite. haha argue that....sad thing is I bet you will.
for your sake i will, since you're so high on illogic :}
how many options do you have to change something into anything you want? limited options right? so change is finite.
Edit: for example's sake, can you change wood into iron? haha gotcha.
Infintay does exist. Do me a favor and give me the EXACT answer for the equation 10 divided by 3. That right there proves infinity.
Actually, that's not a very fair argument. The "EXACT" answer for 10/3 is 10/3. The definition of an exact answer includes using only real numbers, no decimal approximations, and of course no repeating decimals. Not to mention, infinity doesn't even exist in a numerical, and therefore equational, sense. It's misconstrued to use an abstract idea of repeating decimals in a setting that has no infinity to prove infinity exists.
A more appropriate mathematical "proof" of infinity would require a type of math where infinity truly does exist... The limit of a function that equals infinity, going on forever and ever. In calculus, it's referred to as "converging to infinity."
However, one could make the argument that sense of infinity is "man-made" and is therefore not real. I'm sure OneMuslim is trying to get at a more substantial, nature-based infinity.
One question, though, OneMuslim... if there is no infinity, you obviously must believe that the universe's volume is finite. If so... what's containing the universe? What's at the edge of the universe? A turtle? A greek guy with a back problem? God's loving arms?
EDITED because I somehow put this post in bold and it looked ugly. EDITED x2 Hopefully it'll work this time... EDITED x3 OK, fine... I guess it wants to stay bold.
_____________________________________ "Io rido, e rider mio non passa dentro; Io ardo, e l'arsion mia non par di fore." -Machiavelli
One question, though, OneMuslim... if there is no infinity, you obviously must believe that the universe's volume is finite. If so... what's containing the universe? What's at the edge of the universe? A turtle? A greek guy with a back problem? God's loving arms?
good question and good point, i was going to say what you said about equations and numbers and this 10/3.
one thing i'd like to add to that before answering, how many times can you write down the 3s behind the . ? and if you take a calculator how many times it will print those 3s? finite times.
anyway, your question is realy nice, however, there's one thing we know for sure, and that is that our knowledge is superly very limited, we can only grasp and understand what we see, there are even things which we can't understand even if we looked at them for 100s of years.
for example this universe and vast space you see, can you see beyond that? no.
what we can see is our only one universe that we're in, it's so Gaigantically huge, and we're so tinylly tiny compared to it's size, can you just imagine that there are other 6 universes just like this one? and maybe bigger?
compare the molecule to the solar system we're in, and then look at yourself, and ask yourself this, what do i know?
what do you know? can you imagine that we only have knowledge of only around 107 something element in this whole world?
is there more? some say yes some say no, but what do they know? have you been to other planets? why there are colorful planets? why did other planets exist in the first place? what made them exist?
if you can answer this question, then i'm probably gonna answer yours, but sadly, i can't, and no one can.
we only have limited knowledge, we know what we know, that's it, period.
i know i made this way longer than it should, it's just because i'm bad at explaining things hehehe.
Originally posted by OneMuslim Originally posted by ViolentY
One question, though, OneMuslim... if there is no infinity, you obviously must believe that the universe's volume is finite. If so... what's containing the universe? What's at the edge of the universe? A turtle? A greek guy with a back problem? God's loving arms?
one thing i'd like to add to that before answering, how many times can you write down the 3s behind the . ? and if you take a calculator how many times it will print those 3s? finite times. God could do it, so yes it could be infinite...or is God not omnipotent?
anyway, your question is realy nice, however, there's one thing we know for sure, and that is that our knowledge is superly very limited, we can only grasp and understand what we see, there are even things which we can't understand even if we looked at them for 100s of years. This doesn't sound like the words from a man of faith. =P
for example this universe and vast space you see, can you see beyond that? no. Have faith!
what we can see is our only one universe that we're in, it's so Gaigantically huge, and we're so tinylly tiny compared to it's size, can you just imagine that there are other 6 universes just like this one? and maybe bigger? Well you can imagine something so vast as...God. What's wrong with 6 universes?
we only have limited knowledge, we know what we know, that's it, period. That's definately not a man of faith right there. If you used this type of skeptical thinking with your religion, what would happen?
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Originally posted by OneMuslim Originally posted by ViolentY
One question, though, OneMuslim... if there is no infinity, you obviously must believe that the universe's volume is finite. If so... what's containing the universe? What's at the edge of the universe? A turtle? A greek guy with a back problem? God's loving arms?
good question and good point, i was going to say what you said about equations and numbers and this 10/3.
one thing i'd like to add to that before answering, how many times can you write down the 3s behind the . ? and if you take a calculator how many times it will print those 3s? infinite times.
If you went to the right calculator and punched in the answer for 10/3 then you would be 3.3333 continuing infinatly.
Yes you could say the answer for 10/3 is 10/3 but that is not the only answer you could have for it the numerical decimal number is 3.33 repeating(infinite times)
anyway, your question is realy nice, however, there's one thing we know for sure, and that is that our knowledge is superly very limited, we can only grasp and understand what we see, there are even things which we can't understand even if we looked at them for 100s of years.
I can turn that around and say there's alot of things that we will understand if we studied for 100s of years.
for example this universe and vast space you see, can you see beyond that? no.
Well if we are right then we can see forever. You cant say we cant see beyond just as much as i can say we can.
what we can see is our only one universe that we're in, it's so Gaigantically huge, and we're so tinylly tiny compared to it's size, can you just imagine that there are other 6 universes just like this one? and maybe bigger?Were did you get the number six? If your talking about the other dimensions, as believed by the string theory, then the number would actually be infiniate:)
compare the molecule to the solar system we're in, and then look at yourself, and ask yourself this, what do i know? Who said something small cant acomplish somthing great(see 1 Samuel 16:1-17:58 in the old testament)
what do you know? can you imagine that we only have knowledge of only around 107 something element in this whole world? Actually i belive its 114 elements skipping the 113th.
is there more? some say yes some say no, but what do they know? have you been to other planets? why there are colorful planets? why did other planets exist in the first place? what made them exist? What do you know? The reason planets are a certain colour is because of the type of gas or type of dominant element that is on that planet. The reason planets are a certain colour is because we persieve it as such. Uranus is blueish because that is what colour we see when methane absorbs light.
Well i cant say why, but there is a theory called the Big Bang theory that should give you an example of what made them.
if you can answer this question, then i'm probably gonna answer yours, but sadly, i can't, and no one can. we only have limited knowledge, we know what we know, that's it, period. Yes but the fact is that its growing, Can you say that we dont know any more then we did 2,000 years ago?
i know i made this way longer than it should, it's just because i'm bad at explaining things hehehe. Actually, that's not a very fair argument. The "EXACT" answer for 10/3 is 10/3. The definition of an exact answer includes using only real numbers, no decimal approximations, and of course no repeating decimals. Not to mention, infinity doesn't even exist in a numerical, and therefore equational, sense. It's misconstrued to use an abstract idea of repeating decimals in a setting that has no infinity to prove infinity exists.
You are only half right you COULD answer the question with 10/3 but then you could also answer it with 3.33 repeating. Mathematics allows questions to be answered in many forms but essentially: 3.33 = 10/3 and 10/3 = 3.33. So yes you are correct 10/3 does answer the question but 10/3 still represents the number 3.33 repeating. Infinity does exist il give two more examples.
What is the highest number?
Also X = X could aslo equal an infinite amount of things.
A more appropriate mathematical "proof" of infinity would require a type of math where infinity truly does exist... The limit of a function that equals infinity, going on forever and ever. In calculus, it's referred to as "converging to infinity."
However, one could make the argument that sense of infinity is "man-made" and is therefore not real. I'm sure OneMuslim is trying to get at a more substantial, nature-based infinity.
Your computer is "Man-made" does that mean its not real?
One question, though, OneMuslim... if there is no infinity, you obviously must believe that the universe's volume is finite. If so... what's containing the universe? What's at the edge of the universe? A turtle? A greek guy with a back problem? God's loving arms?
EDITED because I somehow put this post in bold and it looked ugly. EDITED x2 Hopefully it'll work this time... EDITED x3 OK, fine... I guess it wants to stay bold.
Originally posted by cloudoffire Originally posted by OneMuslim
Originally posted by ViolentY
One question, though, OneMuslim... if there is no infinity, you obviously must believe that the universe's volume is finite. If so... what's containing the universe? What's at the edge of the universe? A turtle? A greek guy with a back problem? God's loving arms?
good question and good point, i was going to say what you said about equations and numbers and this 10/3.
one thing i'd like to add to that before answering, how many times can you write down the 3s behind the . ? and if you take a calculator how many times it will print those 3s? infinite times.
If you went to the right calculator and punched in the answer for 10/3 then you would be 3.3333 continuing infinatly.
Actually what he's saying here is that a calculator can't print 3's forever... it only has so much memory before it stops printing them, and assumes that the user knows what it means. Of course OneMuslim is stepping on hairs with technicality, though.
Yes you could say the answer for 10/3 is 10/3 but that is not the only answer you could have for it the numerical decimal number is 3.33 repeating(infinite times)
anyway, your question is realy nice, however, there's one thing we know for sure, and that is that our knowledge is superly very limited, we can only grasp and understand what we see, there are even things which we can't understand even if we looked at them for 100s of years.
If you admit that there is much we don't know... why can't there exist infinity? Admitting that there are things you don't know, especially about things like the vastness of existance, and then saying there is no possible concept of infinity, is quite contradictory and hypocritical.
I can turn that around and say there's alot of things that we will understand if we studied for 100s of years.
for example this universe and vast space you see, can you see beyond that? no.
Well if we are right then we can see forever. You cant say we cant see beyond just as much as i can say we can.
what we can see is our only one universe that we're in, it's so Gaigantically huge, and we're so tinylly tiny compared to it's size, can you just imagine that there are other 6 universes just like this one? and maybe bigger?Were did you get the number six? If your talking about the other dimensions, as believed by the string theory, then the number would actually be infiniate:)
compare the molecule to the solar system we're in, and then look at yourself, and ask yourself this, what do i know? Who said something small cant acomplish somthing great(see 1 Samuel 16:1-17:58 in the old testament)
That's kind of unfair... I think the quote was intended to mean you can accomplish something great here on Earth. Ever hear the phrase "it's all the little things that count"?
what do you know? can you imagine that we only have knowledge of only around 107 something element in this whole world?
What's the problem? Using your logic, there's a finite number of elements in "this whole world." Eventually we will have knowledge of all of them.
Actually i belive its 114 elements skipping the 113th.
is there more? some say yes some say no, but what do they know? have you been to other planets? why there are colorful planets? why did other planets exist in the first place? what made them exist? To answer your questions, you should brush up a little more on your high school science courses.
What do you know? The reason planets are a certain colour is because of the type of gas or type of dominant element that is on that planet. The reason planets are a certain colour is because we persieve it as such. Uranus is blueish because that is what colour we see when methane absorbs light.
Well i cant say why, but there is a theory called the Big Bang theory that should give you an example of what made them.
if you can answer this question, then i'm probably gonna answer yours, but sadly, i can't, and no one can. we only have limited knowledge, we know what we know, that's it, period. Yes but the fact is that its growing, Can you say that we dont know any more then we did 2,000 years ago?
i know i made this way longer than it should, it's just because i'm bad at explaining things hehehe. Actually, that's not a very fair argument. The "EXACT" answer for 10/3 is 10/3. The definition of an exact answer includes using only real numbers, no decimal approximations, and of course no repeating decimals. Not to mention, infinity doesn't even exist in a numerical, and therefore equational, sense. It's misconstrued to use an abstract idea of repeating decimals in a setting that has no infinity to prove infinity exists.
You are only half right you COULD answer the question with 10/3 but then you could also answer it with 3.33 repeating. Mathematics allows questions to be answered in many forms but essentially: 3.33 = 10/3 and 10/3 = 3.33. So yes you are correct 10/3 does answer the question but 10/3 still represents the number 3.33 repeating. Infinity does exist il give two more examples.
No, the decimal approximation 3.33 is NOT a propper answer to 10/3. It's an approximate answer. The two are very different things... you're using the idea that 10/3 is 3.33 with an infinite ammount of 3's behind it. To use that idea in an equation (A + B = C) form is confusing. What is the highest number?
Also X = X could aslo equal an infinite amount of things.
These concepts don't prove the existance of infinity. They are ideas of numbers that get infinitely bigger (or bigger infinitely...), but as I said (and will say below), just because the tool we use to explain things -- math -- uses an idea of infinity doesn't make it exist...
What's the square root of -1?
A more appropriate mathematical "proof" of infinity would require a type of math where infinity truly does exist... The limit of a function that equals infinity, going on forever and ever. In calculus, it's referred to as "converging to infinity."
However, one could make the argument that sense of infinity is "man-made" and is therefore not real. I'm sure OneMuslim is trying to get at a more substantial, nature-based infinity.
Your computer is "Man-made" does that mean its not real?
No, but the idea of math is a man-made concept. Yes, it has real-world implications, but because math can be described using the world, doesn't mean that the world can be described using math. Like unreal numbers, the concept of infinity may work on paper, but does it really exist in the real world?
One question, though, OneMuslim... if there is no infinity, you obviously must believe that the universe's volume is finite. If so... what's containing the universe? What's at the edge of the universe? A turtle? A greek guy with a back problem? God's loving arms?
EDITED because I somehow put this post in bold and it looked ugly. EDITED x2 Hopefully it'll work this time... EDITED x3 OK, fine... I guess it wants to stay bold.
Sorry for the typos i was writing this fast.
_____________________________________ "Io rido, e rider mio non passa dentro; Io ardo, e l'arsion mia non par di fore." -Machiavelli
OneMuslim was trying to say infinty doesnt exist. I was showing him that it does in mathematics and mathematics IS used to describe the way the world works.
Also you where asking for an example of infinty in the natural world. I may be going out on a limb here but isnt energy infinite? If im not mistaken energy is never lost its just transferd into other energys (IE Kinetic, potential).
Like I said, mathematics can describe the world, but it's not absolute... do unreal numbers exist in nature? No, they don't. Does the concept of infinity? That's what we're trying to discuss...
No, if anything you just proved energy is finite. It's never created, therefore there is a certain number of it. If energy was infinite, then it would have to be continuously created to no end.
_____________________________________ "Io rido, e rider mio non passa dentro; Io ardo, e l'arsion mia non par di fore." -Machiavelli
Originally posted by ViolentY Like I said, mathematics can describe the world, but it's not absolute... do unreal numbers exist in nature? No, they don't. Does the concept of infinity? That's what we're trying to discuss...
No, if anything you just proved energy is finite. It's never created, therefore there is a certain number of it. If energy was infinite, then it would have to be continuously created to no end.
You need to stop twisting his words, what he said is that "infinity does not exist." I was pointing out that infinity does exist in math. You can't say he was talking about in nature as much as i can say he wasnt. The only way we will know is if he would have stated it clearly.
Also I guess you misuderstood me, I meant energy infinite because it is neither created nor destroyed. Im not saying energy as a value, im saying energy as itself. If its not created or destroyed doesn't that mean it can last forever(infinitly)?
Its cool and all. Nice link. But I dont believe it at all. There are some flaws in what he says IMO.
One obviouse flaw comes about in the so called "8th" dimension. When he starts talking about other how other universes could of been created without the laws of gravity and such. But there are already places in our own universe where the laws of gravity and physics break down. This video really doesnt expand your mind in my opinion. Iv studied the string theory for a while and I think it is a stupid theory. It tries to simplify everything down to a point. Thats just not how it is.
The United States is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly enforced.- Frank Zappa
Originally posted by robbykl1415 Iv studied the string theory for a while and I think it is a stupid theory. It tries to simplify everything down to a point. Thats just not how it is.
How is it then?
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Ok first, I did say that infinity doesn't exist and you can see it everywhere, even in math my friend.
when you say 3.333333333 how many times can you say 3 before you get tired? how many times can you print it out before the ink gets dry? how many times can you even silently think about how many 3s before you get bored and stop?
The only thing that is finite is God, as he said in all of his holy Books in which muslims prove of their original copies ( not the current ones, except for the Qur'an since the original exist ), that he is the only eternal umm, thing, on this whole existance, because everything here has a beginning and has an end, but God doesn't have a beginning and doesn't have an end, so basically he is eternal, infinite.
so is paradise and hell, they are both eternal, as God described them, because he created them for the right people, you and me, one of us will go to paradise and live an infinite life, and one in hell and will live an infinite life over there, or we can both go to hell, or both go to paradise, and it is up to us to choose, it's easy to choose but not easy to follow hehe.
so there you have, and actually God said in the Qur'an, that he created day and night, so we can know how to calculate the years, and study math, so there you go, math is from God, and it is finite, why? because everything he created in the zone of these universes is finite.
you can take anything, earth is finite, the sun is finite, why? because there are bagjazillions of other planets and stars that have either exploded, imploded or hit other things and scattered, ending their life spans.
and this 10 dimention theory is but a theory and will never become a fact :}
because infact, we are all in one moving dimention, that will move to it's end, that is how God described it.
Originally posted by ob1sr Ok first, I did say that infinity doesn't exist and you can see it everywhere, even in math my friend. when you say 3.333333333 how many times can you say 3 before you get tired? how many times can you print it out before the ink gets dry? how many times can you even silently think about how many 3s before you get bored and stop? The only thing that is finite is God, as he said in all of his holy Books in which muslims prove of their original copies ( not the current ones, except for the Qur'an since the original exist ), that he is the only eternal umm, thing, on this whole existance, because everything here has a beginning and has an end, but God doesn't have a beginning and doesn't have an end, so basically he is eternal, infinite. so is paradise and hell, they are both eternal, as God described them, because he created them for the right people, you and me, one of us will go to paradise and live an infinite life, and one in hell and will live an infinite life over there, or we can both go to hell, or both go to paradise, and it is up to us to choose, it's easy to choose but not easy to follow hehe. so there you have, and actually God said in the Qur'an, that he created day and night, so we can know how to calculate the years, and study math, so there you go, math is from God, and it is finite, why? because everything he created in the zone of these universes is finite. you can take anything, earth is finite, the sun is finite, why? because there are bagjazillions of other planets and stars that have either exploded, imploded or hit other things and scattered, ending their life spans. and this 10 dimention theory is but a theory and will never become a fact :} because infact, we are all in one moving dimention, that will move to it's end, that is how God described it.
Well your trying to change what i said, i meant that 3.333 is repeating and it represents that it goes on infinitly. If i where able to put it on paper that would mean that another thing is infinite.
Its very hypocritical of you to say that math is not infinite because there is no physical prove of it when there is also no physical prove of God. Let alone that this being created the night and day(thats what the sun does).
Also you are only half correct about the sun and earth yes it will be destroyed but the matter from it will not be destroyed. Matter is not destroyed it is just changed into energy or other matter. So technicaly matter and energy are infinite as well.
Originally posted by britoca oh boy.... here we go again, how did we cross the boundary between hyperdimensional mathematics and religion again?
because some peope can't understand that everything they know, seen, have not seen, have not known yet, and everything else, their thoughts, and heck, their brains and minds are things God created.
there's some sort of theory going on that says this:
What if the brain, is not actually in your head? what if it was a piece of flesh laying somewhere, and everything you see feel taste blah blah is just your imagination, and actually doesn't exist.
ok, this theory is a total BS, since brains can't function without blood running through them, and blood can't run withour a heart, and a heart can't function without a blood, oh well.
second thing, i swear we're not in a matrix, it's just a movie for God's sake.
as for infinity, excuse me, energy and matter are infinite? have you seen any sort of battery that can run forever? please, you sound just like Alex, speaking without thinking.
have you seen any sort of energy that isn't depletable? THERE IS NON.
and matter? ummm, well, the purpose of it is to contain life, once there's no life ontop of that matter, it's just nothing, useless, cannot be used for anything unless it contains minirals, and if it did, you will use it, thus it will disappear, so it is finite.
again, think of what you're saying before you say it, you have the time, these are forums.
Originally posted by OneMuslim Originally posted by britoca oh boy.... here we go again, how did we cross the boundary between hyperdimensional mathematics and religion again?
because some peope can't understand that everything they know, seen, have not seen, have not known yet, and everything else, their thoughts, and heck, their brains and minds are things God created.
there's some sort of theory going on that says this:
What if the brain, is not actually in your head? what if it was a piece of flesh laying somewhere, and everything you see feel taste blah blah is just your imagination, and actually doesn't exist.
ok, this theory is a total BS, since brains can't function without blood running through them, and blood can't run withour a heart, and a heart can't function without a blood, oh well.
second thing, i swear we're not in a matrix, it's just a movie for God's sake.
as for infinity, excuse me, energy and matter are infinite? have you seen any sort of battery that can run forever? please, you sound just like Alex, speaking without thinking.
have you seen any sort of energy that isn't depletable? THERE IS NON.
and matter? ummm, well, the purpose of it is to contain life, once there's no life ontop of that matter, it's just nothing, useless, cannot be used for anything unless it contains minirals, and if it did, you will use it, thus it will disappear, so it is finite.
again, think of what you're saying before you say it, you have the time, these are forums.
I think he meant that matter and energy are infinitely exchangeable in form.
You are correct, the electric potential of a battery depletes if current is allowed to flow through from one pole to the other. The negative side gets ride of the electrons in excess and the positive side claims them because it is defficient in electrons. Then, the battery is effectively dead electrically, but that doesn't mean it doesn't contain energy. Matter is energy, and vice-versa. This means that the battery, even though dead contains "frozen" energy in the form of matter.
I think that's what he meant, and it makes sense, the permanence of energy whther inas matter or energy is apparently infinite (as far as we can tell) as long as confined within the boundaries of the observable universe. Outside of that, take a guess, yours is as good as anyone's.
I hope that whole god tirade wasn't aimed at me because that's really what the topic is NOT about.
And another thing, if you really were in a matrix-like system, sufficiently perfected, you wouldn't be able to tell. Why do I say this? Because u already have a matrix-like state when u dream at night. You have the most absurd of dreams when u sleep sometimes and you play along inside the dream as if everything makes sense, only to wake up and realize that not a single moment of it made sense in the least bit, and yet, u got duped the entire time. I can easily imagine tecnology sufficiently advanced to recreate those states of minds. Heck, u don't need fancy tecnology, go do some hard hallucinogenic drugs and u'll see how amazingly mutable reality is. Doubt your senses always, question reality. If you don't understand that, you have a whole lot of philosophy to read.
Also, matter has no point. There is no goal to the universe, no objective, matter has no purpose, nor does energy. It's just happening, all of it, at the same time. The river doesn't run downhill to get to the sea. The sea just happens to be there. Purpose is an illusion created inside the mind of the observer who needs to partition reality into objects, effects and events so it can comprehend it. Reality has none of those, it's just one big giant universal object/effect "thing", it just looks like it does when observed through our senses.
anyways, this is way off topic, start your own religious discussion thread if u want to continue or this will just get all over the place once again
Comments
I wonder if that's what we see when people see things like ghosts?
And if time is really always ocurring like that, nothing really ever begins or ends. It's really just an illusion we're forced to have to put up with.
do you know what's sad?
we are all living in only one dimension which contains everything we see and don't see.
3D or 2D, this is somethingwe percieved when we made things on computers, so you know what? we have to stop being so dumb, and stop comparing real life, and the 7 universes to something we humans made on a computer.
infinity? i have you seen anything that goes with that so far? man hell, even planets are not infinite, there are billions of stars exploding every once in a while in this Gaigantically vast universe.
heck, even the universe itself is finite, people dieing, stars dieing, new stars are born, new people are born, blah blah ETC ETC.
what i'm trying to say is, infinity does not exist :}
i didn't ask you to believe, i wanted you to think that's all.
besides, what realy makes people think that this world is infinite? we can totally see the opposite here, GAS, hint hint.
Ever hear of pi ?
Don't worry Xzaro, Onemuslim gets pretty high on a little thing I call religion.
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
How did scissors get into the infinity equation?
Anyways change is infinite. haha argue that....sad thing is I bet you will.
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
for your sake i will, since you're so high on illogic :}
how many options do you have to change something into anything you want? limited options right? so change is finite.
Edit: for example's sake, can you change wood into iron? haha gotcha.
for your sake i will, since you're so high on illogic :}
how many options do you have to change something into anything you want? limited options right? so change is finite.
Edit: for example's sake, can you change wood into iron? haha gotcha.
Infintay does exist. Do me a favor and give me the EXACT answer for the equation 10 divided by 3. That right there proves infinity.
-Cloudoffire-
for your sake i will, since you're so high on illogic :}
how many options do you have to change something into anything you want? limited options right? so change is finite.
Edit: for example's sake, can you change wood into iron? haha gotcha.
Infintay does exist. Do me a favor and give me the EXACT answer for the equation 10 divided by 3. That right there proves infinity.
Actually, that's not a very fair argument. The "EXACT" answer for 10/3 is 10/3. The definition of an exact answer includes using only real numbers, no decimal approximations, and of course no repeating decimals. Not to mention, infinity doesn't even exist in a numerical, and therefore equational, sense. It's misconstrued to use an abstract idea of repeating decimals in a setting that has no infinity to prove infinity exists.
A more appropriate mathematical "proof" of infinity would require a type of math where infinity truly does exist... The limit of a function that equals infinity, going on forever and ever. In calculus, it's referred to as "converging to infinity."
However, one could make the argument that sense of infinity is "man-made" and is therefore not real. I'm sure OneMuslim is trying to get at a more substantial, nature-based infinity.
One question, though, OneMuslim... if there is no infinity, you obviously must believe that the universe's volume is finite. If so... what's containing the universe? What's at the edge of the universe? A turtle? A greek guy with a back problem? God's loving arms?
EDITED because I somehow put this post in bold and it looked ugly.
EDITED x2 Hopefully it'll work this time...
EDITED x3 OK, fine... I guess it wants to stay bold.
_____________________________________
"Io rido, e rider mio non passa dentro;
Io ardo, e l'arsion mia non par di fore."
-Machiavelli
good question and good point, i was going to say what you said about equations and numbers and this 10/3.
one thing i'd like to add to that before answering, how many times can you write down the 3s behind the . ? and if you take a calculator how many times it will print those 3s? finite times.
anyway, your question is realy nice, however, there's one thing we know for sure, and that is that our knowledge is superly very limited, we can only grasp and understand what we see, there are even things which we can't understand even if we looked at them for 100s of years.
for example this universe and vast space you see, can you see beyond that? no.
what we can see is our only one universe that we're in, it's so Gaigantically huge, and we're so tinylly tiny compared to it's size, can you just imagine that there are other 6 universes just like this one? and maybe bigger?
compare the molecule to the solar system we're in, and then look at yourself, and ask yourself this, what do i know?
what do you know? can you imagine that we only have knowledge of only around 107 something element in this whole world?
is there more? some say yes some say no, but what do they know? have you been to other planets? why there are colorful planets? why did other planets exist in the first place? what made them exist?
if you can answer this question, then i'm probably gonna answer yours, but sadly, i can't, and no one can.
we only have limited knowledge, we know what we know, that's it, period.
i know i made this way longer than it should, it's just because i'm bad at explaining things hehehe.
one thing i'd like to add to that before answering, how many times can you write down the 3s behind the . ? and if you take a calculator how many times it will print those 3s? finite times.
God could do it, so yes it could be infinite...or is God not omnipotent?
anyway, your question is realy nice, however, there's one thing we know for sure, and that is that our knowledge is superly very limited, we can only grasp and understand what we see, there are even things which we can't understand even if we looked at them for 100s of years.
This doesn't sound like the words from a man of faith. =P
for example this universe and vast space you see, can you see beyond that? no.
Have faith!
what we can see is our only one universe that we're in, it's so Gaigantically huge, and we're so tinylly tiny compared to it's size, can you just imagine that there are other 6 universes just like this one? and maybe bigger?
Well you can imagine something so vast as...God. What's wrong with 6 universes?
we only have limited knowledge, we know what we know, that's it, period.
That's definately not a man of faith right there. If you used this type of skeptical thinking with your religion, what would happen?
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
good question and good point, i was going to say what you said about equations and numbers and this 10/3.
one thing i'd like to add to that before answering, how many times can you write down the 3s behind the . ? and if you take a calculator how many times it will print those 3s? infinite times.
If you went to the right calculator and punched in the answer for 10/3 then you would be 3.3333 continuing infinatly.
Yes you could say the answer for 10/3 is 10/3 but that is not the only answer you could have for it the numerical decimal number is 3.33 repeating(infinite times)
anyway, your question is realy nice, however, there's one thing we know for sure, and that is that our knowledge is superly very limited, we can only grasp and understand what we see, there are even things which we can't understand even if we looked at them for 100s of years.
I can turn that around and say there's alot of things that we will understand if we studied for 100s of years.
for example this universe and vast space you see, can you see beyond that? no.
Well if we are right then we can see forever. You cant say we cant see beyond just as much as i can say we can.
what we can see is our only one universe that we're in, it's so Gaigantically huge, and we're so tinylly tiny compared to it's size, can you just imagine that there are other 6 universes just like this one? and maybe bigger?Were did you get the number six? If your talking about the other dimensions, as believed by the string theory, then the number would actually be infiniate:)
compare the molecule to the solar system we're in, and then look at yourself, and ask yourself this, what do i know?
Who said something small cant acomplish somthing great(see 1 Samuel 16:1-17:58 in the old testament)
what do you know? can you imagine that we only have knowledge of only around 107 something element in this whole world?
Actually i belive its 114 elements skipping the 113th.
is there more? some say yes some say no, but what do they know? have you been to other planets? why there are colorful planets? why did other planets exist in the first place? what made them exist?
What do you know? The reason planets are a certain colour is because of the type of gas or type of dominant element that is on that planet. The reason planets are a certain colour is because we persieve it as such. Uranus is blueish because that is what colour we see when methane absorbs light.
Well i cant say why, but there is a theory called the Big Bang theory that should give you an example of what made them.
if you can answer this question, then i'm probably gonna answer yours, but sadly, i can't, and no one can.
we only have limited knowledge, we know what we know, that's it, period.
Yes but the fact is that its growing, Can you say that we dont know any more then we did 2,000 years ago?
i know i made this way longer than it should, it's just because i'm bad at explaining things hehehe.
Actually, that's not a very fair
argument. The "EXACT" answer for 10/3 is 10/3. The definition of an
exact answer includes using only real numbers, no decimal
approximations, and of course no repeating decimals. Not to mention,
infinity doesn't even exist in a numerical, and therefore equational,
sense. It's misconstrued to use an abstract idea of repeating decimals
in a setting that has no infinity to prove infinity exists.
You are only half right you COULD answer the question with 10/3 but then you could also answer it with 3.33 repeating.
Mathematics allows questions to be answered in many forms but
essentially: 3.33 = 10/3 and 10/3 = 3.33. So yes you are correct 10/3
does answer the question but 10/3 still represents the number 3.33
repeating. Infinity does exist il give two more examples.
What is the highest number?
Also X = X could aslo equal an infinite amount of things.
A
more appropriate mathematical "proof" of infinity would require a type
of math where infinity truly does exist... The limit of a function that
equals infinity, going on forever and ever. In calculus, it's referred
to as "converging to infinity."
However, one could make the
argument that sense of infinity is "man-made" and is therefore not
real. I'm sure OneMuslim is trying to get at a more substantial,
nature-based infinity.
Your computer is "Man-made" does that mean its not real?
One question, though, OneMuslim... if
there is no infinity, you obviously must believe that the universe's
volume is finite. If so... what's containing the universe? What's at
the edge of the universe? A turtle? A greek guy with a back problem?
God's loving arms?
EDITED because I somehow put this post in bold and it looked ugly.
EDITED x2 Hopefully it'll work this time...
EDITED x3 OK, fine... I guess it wants to stay bold.
Sorry for the typos i was writing this fast.
-Cloudoffire-
good question and good point, i was going to say what you said about equations and numbers and this 10/3.
one thing i'd like to add to that before answering, how many times can you write down the 3s behind the . ? and if you take a calculator how many times it will print those 3s? infinite times.
If you went to the right calculator and punched in the answer for 10/3 then you would be 3.3333 continuing infinatly.
Actually what he's saying here is that a calculator can't print 3's forever... it only has so much memory before it stops printing them, and assumes that the user knows what it means. Of course OneMuslim is stepping on hairs with technicality, though.
Yes you could say the answer for 10/3 is 10/3 but that is not the only answer you could have for it the numerical decimal number is 3.33 repeating(infinite times)
anyway, your question is realy nice, however, there's one thing we know for sure, and that is that our knowledge is superly very limited, we can only grasp and understand what we see, there are even things which we can't understand even if we looked at them for 100s of years.
If you admit that there is much we don't know... why can't there exist infinity? Admitting that there are things you don't know, especially about things like the vastness of existance, and then saying there is no possible concept of infinity, is quite contradictory and hypocritical.
I can turn that around and say there's alot of things that we will understand if we studied for 100s of years.
for example this universe and vast space you see, can you see beyond that? no.
Well if we are right then we can see forever. You cant say we cant see beyond just as much as i can say we can.
what we can see is our only one universe that we're in, it's so Gaigantically huge, and we're so tinylly tiny compared to it's size, can you just imagine that there are other 6 universes just like this one? and maybe bigger?Were did you get the number six? If your talking about the other dimensions, as believed by the string theory, then the number would actually be infiniate:)
compare the molecule to the solar system we're in, and then look at yourself, and ask yourself this, what do i know?
Who said something small cant acomplish somthing great(see 1 Samuel 16:1-17:58 in the old testament)
That's kind of unfair... I think the quote was intended to mean you can accomplish something great here on Earth. Ever hear the phrase "it's all the little things that count"?
what do you know? can you imagine that we only have knowledge of only around 107 something element in this whole world?
What's the problem? Using your logic, there's a finite number of elements in "this whole world." Eventually we will have knowledge of all of them.
Actually i belive its 114 elements skipping the 113th.
is there more? some say yes some say no, but what do they know? have you been to other planets? why there are colorful planets? why did other planets exist in the first place? what made them exist?
To answer your questions, you should brush up a little more on your high school science courses.
What do you know? The reason planets are a certain colour is because of the type of gas or type of dominant element that is on that planet. The reason planets are a certain colour is because we persieve it as such. Uranus is blueish because that is what colour we see when methane absorbs light.
Well i cant say why, but there is a theory called the Big Bang theory that should give you an example of what made them.
if you can answer this question, then i'm probably gonna answer yours, but sadly, i can't, and no one can.
we only have limited knowledge, we know what we know, that's it, period.
Yes but the fact is that its growing, Can you say that we dont know any more then we did 2,000 years ago?
i know i made this way longer than it should, it's just because i'm bad at explaining things hehehe.
Actually, that's not a very fair
argument. The "EXACT" answer for 10/3 is 10/3. The definition of an
exact answer includes using only real numbers, no decimal
approximations, and of course no repeating decimals. Not to mention,
infinity doesn't even exist in a numerical, and therefore equational,
sense. It's misconstrued to use an abstract idea of repeating decimals
in a setting that has no infinity to prove infinity exists.
You are only half right you COULD answer the question with 10/3 but then you could also answer it with 3.33 repeating.
Mathematics allows questions to be answered in many forms but
essentially: 3.33 = 10/3 and 10/3 = 3.33. So yes you are correct 10/3
does answer the question but 10/3 still represents the number 3.33
repeating. Infinity does exist il give two more examples.
No, the decimal approximation 3.33 is NOT a propper answer to 10/3. It's an approximate answer. The two are very different things... you're using the idea that 10/3 is 3.33 with an infinite ammount of 3's behind it. To use that idea in an equation (A + B = C) form is confusing.
What is the highest number?
Also X = X could aslo equal an infinite amount of things.
These concepts don't prove the existance of infinity. They are ideas of numbers that get infinitely bigger (or bigger infinitely...), but as I said (and will say below), just because the tool we use to explain things -- math -- uses an idea of infinity doesn't make it exist...
What's the square root of -1?
A
more appropriate mathematical "proof" of infinity would require a type
of math where infinity truly does exist... The limit of a function that
equals infinity, going on forever and ever. In calculus, it's referred
to as "converging to infinity."
However, one could make the
argument that sense of infinity is "man-made" and is therefore not
real. I'm sure OneMuslim is trying to get at a more substantial,
nature-based infinity.
Your computer is "Man-made" does that mean its not real?
No, but the idea of math is a man-made concept. Yes, it has real-world implications, but because math can be described using the world, doesn't mean that the world can be described using math. Like unreal numbers, the concept of infinity may work on paper, but does it really exist in the real world?
One question, though, OneMuslim... if
there is no infinity, you obviously must believe that the universe's
volume is finite. If so... what's containing the universe? What's at
the edge of the universe? A turtle? A greek guy with a back problem?
God's loving arms?
EDITED because I somehow put this post in bold and it looked ugly.
EDITED x2 Hopefully it'll work this time...
EDITED x3 OK, fine... I guess it wants to stay bold.
Sorry for the typos i was writing this fast.
_____________________________________
"Io rido, e rider mio non passa dentro;
Io ardo, e l'arsion mia non par di fore."
-Machiavelli
Also you where asking for an example of infinty in the natural world. I may be going out on a limb here but isnt energy infinite? If im not mistaken energy is never lost its just transferd into other energys (IE Kinetic, potential).
-Cloudoffire-
No, if anything you just proved energy is finite. It's never created, therefore there is a certain number of it. If energy was infinite, then it would have to be continuously created to no end.
_____________________________________
"Io rido, e rider mio non passa dentro;
Io ardo, e l'arsion mia non par di fore."
-Machiavelli
Also I guess you misuderstood me, I meant energy infinite because it is neither created nor destroyed. Im not saying energy as a value, im saying energy as itself. If its not created or destroyed doesn't that mean it can last forever(infinitly)?
-Cloudoffire-
Its cool and all. Nice link. But I dont believe it at all. There are some flaws in what he says IMO.
One obviouse flaw comes about in the so called "8th" dimension. When he starts talking about other how other universes could of been created without the laws of gravity and such. But there are already places in our own universe where the laws of gravity and physics break down. This video really doesnt expand your mind in my opinion. Iv studied the string theory for a while and I think it is a stupid theory. It tries to simplify everything down to a point. Thats just not how it is.
The United States is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly enforced.-
Frank Zappa
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
Ok first, I did say that infinity doesn't exist and you can see it everywhere, even in math my friend.
when you say 3.333333333 how many times can you say 3 before you get tired? how many times can you print it out before the ink gets dry? how many times can you even silently think about how many 3s before you get bored and stop?
The only thing that is finite is God, as he said in all of his holy Books in which muslims prove of their original copies ( not the current ones, except for the Qur'an since the original exist ), that he is the only eternal umm, thing, on this whole existance, because everything here has a beginning and has an end, but God doesn't have a beginning and doesn't have an end, so basically he is eternal, infinite.
so is paradise and hell, they are both eternal, as God described them, because he created them for the right people, you and me, one of us will go to paradise and live an infinite life, and one in hell and will live an infinite life over there, or we can both go to hell, or both go to paradise, and it is up to us to choose, it's easy to choose but not easy to follow hehe.
so there you have, and actually God said in the Qur'an, that he created day and night, so we can know how to calculate the years, and study math, so there you go, math is from God, and it is finite, why? because everything he created in the zone of these universes is finite.
you can take anything, earth is finite, the sun is finite, why? because there are bagjazillions of other planets and stars that have either exploded, imploded or hit other things and scattered, ending their life spans.
and this 10 dimention theory is but a theory and will never become a fact :}
because infact, we are all in one moving dimention, that will move to it's end, that is how God described it.
Its very hypocritical of you to say that math is not infinite because there is no physical prove of it when there is also no physical prove of God. Let alone that this being created the night and day(thats what the sun does).
Also you are only half correct about the sun and earth yes it will be destroyed but the matter from it will not be destroyed. Matter is not destroyed it is just changed into energy or other matter. So technicaly matter and energy are infinite as well.
-Cloudoffire-
oh boy.... here we go again, how did we cross the boundary between hyperdimensional mathematics and religion again?
-virtual tourist
want your game back?
because some peope can't understand that everything they know, seen, have not seen, have not known yet, and everything else, their thoughts, and heck, their brains and minds are things God created.
there's some sort of theory going on that says this:
What if the brain, is not actually in your head? what if it was a piece of flesh laying somewhere, and everything you see feel taste blah blah is just your imagination, and actually doesn't exist.
ok, this theory is a total BS, since brains can't function without blood running through them, and blood can't run withour a heart, and a heart can't function without a blood, oh well.
second thing, i swear we're not in a matrix, it's just a movie for God's sake.
as for infinity, excuse me, energy and matter are infinite? have you seen any sort of battery that can run forever? please, you sound just like Alex, speaking without thinking.
have you seen any sort of energy that isn't depletable? THERE IS NON.
and matter? ummm, well, the purpose of it is to contain life, once there's no life ontop of that matter, it's just nothing, useless, cannot be used for anything unless it contains minirals, and if it did, you will use it, thus it will disappear, so it is finite.
again, think of what you're saying before you say it, you have the time, these are forums.
because some peope can't understand that everything they know, seen, have not seen, have not known yet, and everything else, their thoughts, and heck, their brains and minds are things God created.
there's some sort of theory going on that says this:
What if the brain, is not actually in your head? what if it was a piece of flesh laying somewhere, and everything you see feel taste blah blah is just your imagination, and actually doesn't exist.
ok, this theory is a total BS, since brains can't function without blood running through them, and blood can't run withour a heart, and a heart can't function without a blood, oh well.
second thing, i swear we're not in a matrix, it's just a movie for God's sake.
as for infinity, excuse me, energy and matter are infinite? have you seen any sort of battery that can run forever? please, you sound just like Alex, speaking without thinking.
have you seen any sort of energy that isn't depletable? THERE IS NON.
and matter? ummm, well, the purpose of it is to contain life, once there's no life ontop of that matter, it's just nothing, useless, cannot be used for anything unless it contains minirals, and if it did, you will use it, thus it will disappear, so it is finite.
again, think of what you're saying before you say it, you have the time, these are forums.
I think he meant that matter and energy are infinitely exchangeable in form.
You are correct, the electric potential of a battery depletes if current is allowed to flow through from one pole to the other. The negative side gets ride of the electrons in excess and the positive side claims them because it is defficient in electrons.
Then, the battery is effectively dead electrically, but that doesn't mean it doesn't contain energy. Matter is energy, and vice-versa. This means that the battery, even though dead contains "frozen" energy in the form of matter.
I think that's what he meant, and it makes sense, the permanence of energy whther inas matter or energy is apparently infinite (as far as we can tell) as long as confined within the boundaries of the observable universe. Outside of that, take a guess, yours is as good as anyone's.
I hope that whole god tirade wasn't aimed at me because that's really what the topic is NOT about.
And another thing, if you really were in a matrix-like system, sufficiently perfected, you wouldn't be able to tell. Why do I say this? Because u already have a matrix-like state when u dream at night.
You have the most absurd of dreams when u sleep sometimes and you play along inside the dream as if everything makes sense, only to wake up and realize that not a single moment of it made sense in the least bit, and yet, u got duped the entire time. I can easily imagine tecnology sufficiently advanced to recreate those states of minds. Heck, u don't need fancy tecnology, go do some hard hallucinogenic drugs and u'll see how amazingly mutable reality is. Doubt your senses always, question reality.
If you don't understand that, you have a whole lot of philosophy to read.
Also, matter has no point. There is no goal to the universe, no objective, matter has no purpose, nor does energy. It's just happening, all of it, at the same time. The river doesn't run downhill to get to the sea. The sea just happens to be there. Purpose is an illusion created inside the mind of the observer who needs to partition reality into objects, effects and events so it can comprehend it. Reality has none of those, it's just one big giant universal object/effect "thing", it just looks like it does when observed through our senses.
anyways, this is way off topic, start your own religious discussion thread if u want to continue or this will just get all over the place once again
-virtual tourist
want your game back?