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Losing exp.
Lt.Deadend
Member Posts: 325
Just want to know what people think about losing xp.
I can play ultima online and lose all my stuff over and over,I can play eve-online and lose my Battleship with full t2 items and never get mad,in fact it dont get to me at all.But If I lose exp when I die it makes me mad,I cant stand that at all and it makes me feel like im going backwards.
anyone else feel the same way?
Comments
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I think it's a justifiable penalty for doing something unintelligent. Thus it's an appropriate penalty in MMORPGs where death is normally avoidable with intelligent play.
No, not me. Actually the equipment losing games hit me up harder, because it's usually so much more effort to recover. Even FFXI, which so many people rag on for having a steep death penalty, it's quite rare for the death penalty to be more than the exp you get killing three mobs.
Chris Mattern
I think the death penalty in WoW is exactly one of the major things that has made that game the kindergarten of MMO's. Maybe I should say the lack of a death penalty. The worst thing that happens when you die is you lose some gold on repait bills and have to run back. At high levels there is virtually nothing worth while to spend your money on anyways except repairs, and the run back is even trivialized because they put the graveyard literally within 20 secs of the instance.
This lack of a death penality really removes the sense of accomplishment or thrill of risk. You remember risk right? The old risk vs. reward. WoW is all reward without the risk. You literally have nothing to lose for attmepting the hardest things in the game. This has a ripple effect to other areas of the game.
For example, in FFXI you will lose some exp. You will be hard pressed to find someone who likes to lose exp or even a level. However that is the point, you are supposed to really not want to die because there are consequences that sting you a little bit. In the earlier parts of the game this also servers another purpose.
In WoW, levelling up is the easiest in probably any MMO. Since the death penalty is virtually no existant, you'll find that the accomplishment of reaching high level is not really an accomplishment at all. In fact, the opposite is true. In WoW when you see someone who is NOT max level, you know that they either will be max level soon, or must have a serious problem. This echos at level 60, when time and time again, you will find that your average pick up group member for UBRS or whatever has a very high chance of being a total idiot. In FFXI, by the time you reach higher levels, you find you are surrounded with very compeitent players. Why? Because the ones who weren't good or unable to master a given class never make it that far. This created a prestige and respect for those able to attain high levels as it should be.
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My first online game was an LP MUD with a loss 1/3 of your total xp when you died. If you made it to level 80(which took a long time, you got a legendary hero title for doing it) you would lose around 9 or 10 levels when you died. And if you were an Elder Race (like amberite or chaosborn) with an inherent xp penalty then it was especially painful. Also your Charceter was auto-delted if you died 30 times.
Since that was my first experience in this genre most MMO penalties seem extremely tame to me.
Frankly I never liked that big penalty and since the XP you needed for the next level climbed on an increasing curve you evetually became extremely paranoid of dying.
I guess MMO penalties are so minor compared to what I was used to that for me its like there are none. So when people ask for one like EQ had or whatever I just go "Hah! That's nothing, wussies." But I would say I respect Eve's the most. They are significant enough that they matter but as long as you budget yourself etc. they don't feel punishing. Basically I respect Eve's system because its more about gambling and budgeting and as long as you don't gamble too much or have a bad run of luck its a recoverable loss. Most other games tend to just be kinda depressing because feel like you take a step backwards. Eve punishes you economically but since the game is on a different model than a loot whore/xp grind its not a depressing (unless you just got ruined or something).
Losing XP always feels like a step backwards and is therefore depressing. Losing an item in a loot whore game like WoW is similarly depressing. In some ways the crazy casino model of games like WoW/EQ its almost as bad as dying when you lose an important roll since its similarly depressing (at least if you aren't selfish you can be happy for the other guy though and at least its not a step back its just a failure to improve). Losing a battleship or a HAC or whatever in Eve sucks but you can always get another one and shoulda been smart enough to take precautions. Like they say don't fly what you can't afford to lose. The main thing is a BS is a BS and you could outfit 20 of them with your preferred config if you are well off. Losing a battleship isn't like losing your super uber Asskandi in Wow.
I agree that the penalty is WOW is non-existant and that leads to a poor game.
But I also hate losing xp. I hate coming home from work spending a couple hours playing and then losing it. I feel like I wasted my evening.
EVE is kinda funny that way, you don't lose xp but you lose a ton of time going around buying all the equipment that you lost.
For the record SWG had no xp loss and it didn't turn out like WOW did for community
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I also like the death penalty in Guild Wars. When you die, your maximum health and mana are reduced by 15%, up to a max of 60% (which could very well lead to more deaths). This can be worked off by earning exp, and dissapears once in town.
Eve's death penalty, while initially rough, fits the game and really isn't that bad. By flying affordable ships a player can die without any worries, unlike most exp-loss games where players don't get a choice when they die. Plus the way ships sizes work is such that smaller cheaper ships are not necessarily worse than bigger ones. At least, nothing like the difference between a level 60 and a level 50 in World of Warcraft.
I generally hate exp debt and exp loss system. They turn death into a longer treadmill, and a potentially more frustrating one if a player dies too much. Item is generally even worse, as items aren't as predictable to regain as exp.
Of course, another important note is that the deaths really ought to be meaningful. Getting ganked because another player is bored and has nothing better to do _and_ having no way to get back at that player is annoying, much more so when there's a death penalty. Dying to a mob that one-shots you is stupid and annoying (partly why WoW's death penalty is so weak, given how strong the bosses are), as is any other situation where better player skill could not have gotten the player through the situation. (Nevermind the, "If you were a better player you wouldn't be in that situation" approach, as that would only lead to very paranoid play which would probably get boring)
So having an adventure where there is actually danger is boring for you beause you have to worry about what might happen?
I prefer item loss. Games that have item loss generally have balanced items. Which means they don't make or break you so they can be easily replaced. You just run to your house or bank and get a new set of armor. XP loss is not bad if it is handled intelligently.
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definetly the upside of item loss is item balance and interdependence between crafters and adventurers. Nobody wants to spend the insane amount of time getting the uber weapons and gear found in some games if they will have any chance of lossing it. This means that at least gear wise, powergamers and casual players are on the same level, and this is especially good for any game that wants a good PvP system. This way powergamers still have an advantage through being more experienced, but casual players still can have a chance even over long periods of time. Add to this that you can have a functional crafting system that leads to lots of player interaction and therefore stronger community, and you have a great way to do a MMO... thats been largely abandoned by developers for years.
The downside? The first time you start putting in rare or unique weapons, you screw the whole concept, because what follows that? Thats right, special items or rewards that allow you not to lose that new shiny gear, and down it goes.
I would say I tend to prefer an experience loss over item loss, but then, I tend to be an item whore. I like to collect things :P and I hate losing them. Losing experience generally isn't a huge deal, just go out and kill things to get it back. But if you have something nice and you lose it when you die...that blows. Even in a game that has balanced item's, if you find something you like even if it's just for it's appearance and lose it, that would drive me crazy.
At least with an experience penalty, you don't lose anything that has an affect on the character itself, just on your time. Losing time is generally a good deterrent to dying, as long as it's a significant amount of time. The tiny penalties from WoW weren't really...well...anything. CoH had a good system, as far as I see it.
Every level in DAoC was a punch the air type moment of acomplishment ( I played in the early years before it went soft ) I have leveld in WoW and neither noticed nor cared
You mean its a penalty for daring to try anything risky, meaning people continually stick with their safe tedious experience. Also when you apply such a penalty to WoW you are implying there is unintelligent and intelligent solo play, when anyone can solo in WoW. So the filter would do absolutely nothing.
I think the death penalty in Asheron's Call was damn near perfect.
In Asheron's Call when you died you got a 5% vitae penalty. "Vitae" affected your max HP, stamina and mana. You had to earn xp to reduce your vitae. If you died before you lost all your viate it would stack to a maximum of 40% You weren't in xp debt; the xp you were earning to reduce your vitae still went into the xp pool. However, the vitae penalty made you play more carefully until you lost it.
Also, in Asheron's Call, when you died you left a corpse. On the corpse you left half of all your cash and 1 "Death Item" for every 10 levels of your character. A level 10 guy usually lost one or two items per death; a level 100 guy usually lost 11-12 items per death. If you wanted the items back then you would have to retreive your corpse. This became the "Quest of the Evening" for a player (and his/her patron and vassals sometimes
) on many occassions. Turbine eventually added an @corpse command to give the coords of the players last corpse, but corpses usually ended up in VERY dangerous places.
Death items were usually the most expensive items that you had in your pack. There was also some random chance involved tho. You could give yourself a bit of insurance, but you always had a chance to drop something that you really needed. When you died, you may have just lost some expensive junk that you just found or had actually kept in your pack to be a death item, but sometimes you lost your favorite wand and 3 pieces of armor.
oh yeah, and if you ever got killed in pvp, the victor got to loot your corpse
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Paying for your mistakes is a good thing!!!
If there is no repercusion on dying then people will "Die to get to where they are going and get what they want"
Thats too easy.
Getting places or things should take skill and not "Oh..I died, no biggie..No penalties..I'll just die 3 more times and I'm there" kinda play.
Also..If you die more often in a given time period the penalty should scale up!
LOSING EXP/LEVEL ftw!
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Hehe, I really dislike any moving backward.
But to me, losing items would be FAR worser than losing XP. IMO, when a player has, you never take back. Anyway, from a PvE point of view.
I think debts (as in CoH) combine with an amount of lives per month would settle once and for all this problematics, casuals will care about debts while peoples with more time will care about running out of lives and been unable to play their character for sometimes.
This is my opinion and I know most peoples dislike it ATM, but I also believe that in time, it would be successful if applicated.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I like how people presume that losing stuff and hard work in games feels like accomplishment to everyone. I feel like more of a sap the longer it takes to do anything in an MMO. You talk about achieving a level, or a rank, or an item not meaning anything to you when you don't have to work hard to get it. For me it inverts past a certain point. I just sit there wondering why the hell I went through so much misery to get something that can only facilitate other miseries like the next level or the next item.
Risk isn't even needed to have an adrenaline rush. Nothing is at stake in a FPS map but lots of people play those and enjoy it. Nothing is at stake in a pick up game of any sport but lots of people do that and enjoy it. Nothing is at stake if I go play Scrabble but people enjoy that.
The worse the death penalty, the more it feels like content stretching to me... An effort to make the game artificially longer and longer so that people will keep the subscriptions rolling it. I categorize difficulty as something that is actually hard to do, not something that is simple to do an has to be done ten-thousand (I wish that were a joke, but it probably is the literal truth in some cases) times to finish it.
Depends on your tastes. I'd say that not all that many people really enjoy the Mechanics of Misery. They'd have a different name and they'd be more prevalent.
So having an adventure where there is actually danger is boring for you beause you have to worry about what might happen?
I prefer item loss. Games that have item loss generally have balanced items. Which means they don't make or break you so they can be easily replaced. You just run to your house or bank and get a new set of armor. XP loss is not bad if it is handled intelligently.
I meant the opposite, actually. Like in Eve, to avoid getting in stucky, unwinnable situations in the first place, the easiest way would be to never leave Empire, which would be boring. In my opinion, skill ought to let a player flee, if not actually win a battle, despite the conditions. But in a game where frigates can get insta-popped from 200km out, despite their small size, unwinnable situations are all too common.
I never said I didnt want a DP.I just said loseing xp is dumb.I really feel its a stupid way to deal with death.A game should never make a player go backwards,we pay each month to play,and losing xp is like taking my money and time away with out any option from me.
A game where losing your loot is better in my eyes,it gives the players an option,.It has nothing to do with how smart someone is when its just a flat rate of xp loss,.But if its item loss then a player can choose to use sub par items or cheap gear in risky places.
But it might just be me,. Im hardcore,I like open pvp and item loss and looting.I never did like ubber item based games where you cant loose your sword of doom,and people walk around like there all that with no pvp skill and they hide behind there ubber gear,.I just wish I could kill them and take there stupid sword an delete it right in front of them with my ubber trashcan of doom.
Its nothing to do about being smart or hard,.xp loss to me is just a stupid way of preventing item loss.And ruins the game for me.Guess a player cant like everything ,.
was in UO for 3 years
was in eve-online for 3 years
Guild wars off and on,.but its free,.Zzzz
Old school SWG is the only other game I played for more then 3 months.I like risky sandbox's,SWG was not risky at all.But i gota give it to them.for no open pvp or looting or risk it was sure a good game.
Therefore, you should be able to solo in games until you know you're with a group of intelligent people. But there has to be some sort of consequence and it has to be enough that you "fear" death.