Originally posted by caine6621 I am really split on this.
I agree that the penalty is WOW is non-existant and that leads to a poor game.
But I also hate losing xp. I hate coming home from work spending a couple hours playing and then losing it. I feel like I wasted my evening.
EVE is kinda funny that way, you don't lose xp but you lose a ton of time going around buying all the equipment that you lost.
For the record SWG had no xp loss and it didn't turn out like WOW did for community
I think... if you play an MMO, and at the end of the night you feel like you "wasted your evening" because you lost experience... that the MMO must not actually be -fun- to play. I've had nights in CoV where I racked up some pretty heavy experience debt from making mistakes and trying stupid things. I didn't feel like I wasted my evening, because I was having -fun- playing. It seems like too many people play MMOs with the attitude "I'm not going to have fun until I hit max level". I think that's somewhat akin to going through life with the idea that you'll have fun once you retire.
Originally posted by vendris Originally posted by caine6621 I am really split on this.
I agree that the penalty is WOW is non-existant and that leads to a poor game.
But I also hate losing xp. I hate coming home from work spending a couple hours playing and then losing it. I feel like I wasted my evening.
EVE is kinda funny that way, you don't lose xp but you lose a ton of time going around buying all the equipment that you lost.
For the record SWG had no xp loss and it didn't turn out like WOW did for community
I think... if you play an MMO, and at the end of the night you feel like you "wasted your evening" because you lost experience... that the MMO must not actually be -fun- to play. I've had nights in CoV where I racked up some pretty heavy experience debt from making mistakes and trying stupid things. I didn't feel like I wasted my evening, because I was having -fun- playing. It seems like too many people play MMOs with the attitude "I'm not going to have fun until I hit max level". I think that's somewhat akin to going through life with the idea that you'll have fun once you retire.
I think people are responsible for their own happiness.
Playing Devil's advocate though would say a game like monopoly be as fun if it didn't have the penalties and the only direction you had was continually improving? I mean we think we want a game like that, but do we really?
I'm sorry but no, this is a horrible thing. It does not give you a rush, it just makes you scream out obscenities.
It's called a timesink. Thats all it is, thats all its ever going to be. You lose 10% exp for a death, cool. Now thats another hour or so of grinding you have to do, thus increasing the time it takes to get to the end.
You lose your gear? Well despite this being realistic, it is not really the best thing to a mmorpg.
Losing your gear would indeed give crafters alot more role into the world. But at what cost? One death=hours of regearing? Once again thats just another timesink, and a excuse to add in less content.
I'm truely sorry, i play mmorpgs to get to a goal, or to have fun. Having to constantly regear, or grind up lost exp all over again, is not fun. It will never be fun, and it never was fun
Debts or stat reductions are more exceptable as long as they are a reasonable amount. It still allows you to progress onwards yet at a slower rate. It may be the same result in the end, but it is alot less frustrating.
Games don't need timesinks, or money sinks(repair costs, auction house fees) to be enjoyable. WoWs death penalty wasn't a problem. In fact its probably what saved the game. DAoC did it decently with its grave system, but in pvp it didn't make you lose exp and delevel.
Monopoly is different then a mmorpg so you can't really compare it. In monopoly your playing to win, and beat your friends. In a mmorpg, your not really playing to win, your playing to progress. And your win doesnt "beat" anyone else.(unless its a pvp match but if you add exp penalties, gear penalties, or too big of a death penalty, you really are cheapening pvp, and it changes from a way to fight people, to a even bigger way to grief. And the people who only moderately enjoy pvp occassionally will avoid it like the plague)
I really like discussing death penalties in MMOGs. It's one of those "thin ice" topics. But I feel they are very required for a worthwhile experience overall.
Okay, to understand why we should or should not progress in these games we should first understand how we do progress.
Characters in MMOGs progress in terms of tactics (actual player skill and theory acquired) and statistics (Your experience, money, and item pools of which to draw from for better gear). Now theoretically part of balancing is to curve or scale a character's statistic development to be on par with tactic development. How we measure tactic and statistic development is easy: You take knowns like gear or experience level a player is expected to bring to a particular encouter, and compare it to the difficulty level of that particular enocunter. If a character defeats the encounter, we know the character is entitled enough to receive benefits appropriate to the difficulty level of the encounter. Now if a character gets defeated, (i.e. dies), then we know the character wasn't prepared for the encounter in one of the two terms above, stastically or tactically. This is where we implement death penalty. If neither the player or character were defeated, no advancement anyway, so that takes care of itself. (If you want to look at it as simply as possible, if you defeat an encounter: +1, defeated by the encounter: -1, neither party is defeated: +/- 0)
Okay, so since our player couldn't handle a given encounter for whatever reason at the current difficulty, why should a player keep playing at that difficulty if it has already been shown that he/she isn't experienced enough either literally or on paper? So some kind of penalty must be applied to the development of the character. Since we can't zap our brains to make us less intelligent, we have to take away some of the item/cash/experience pools. Sort of knock us down a peg so we can properly prepare ourselves for the difficulty that we couldn't take on before.
To what extent this happens is up to the developers of the game. Whether it be 2 minutes of runtime and a very small fraction of money or be an entire experience level and half of your equipment.
That's just one view and a little insight on the theory. It's one I like because it fits both a learning curve and item acquisition in the process. Also, if I get to be the level/ cap, I want to be considered pretty badass, not just because I invested x playtime with little to no effort. I didn't even get into the rush that one would get in a near-death encounter when something's actually on the line.
Originally posted by Woob Okay, so since our player couldn't handle a given encounter for whatever reason at the current difficulty, why should a player keep playing at that difficulty if it has already been shown that he/she isn't experienced enough either literally or on paper? So some kind of penalty must be applied to the development of the character. Since we can't zap our brains to make us less intelligent, we have to take away some of the item/cash/experience pools. Sort of knock us down a peg so we can properly prepare ourselves for the difficulty that we couldn't take on before. Chris
Except that this isn't how most games work. Generally it's more like, "Bash monster 50 times until level". If the death penalty is 10% of TNL, and the player dies to 1 out of every 10 monsters, then they are stuck at their level. Why? Not necessarily because they can't kill the monster, but because a second monster wanders in and beats him up. Or maybe it's because his healer friend keeps leaving the keyboard to get drinks or snacks or use the restroom. Or maybe his healer friend shouldn't be at the level he's at, but is anyway because it's his friends that are dying, not him.
If we "levelled up" after each encounter and "levelled down" after each death, then yes, I could see this being fairly valid, but most games are more about grinding than proving one's tactical prowness. And death penalties also encourage another bit of gameplay that's not too likable, that of doing very unheroic acts. If there's a penalty for death, why fight something that's an even match when you can fight a bunch of easier monsters and gurantee not dying? Smaller death penalty makes players go out and try more things.
Except that this isn't how most games work. Generally it's more like, "Bash monster 50 times until level". If the death penalty is 10% of TNL, and the player dies to 1 out of every 10 monsters, then they are stuck at their level. Why? Not necessarily because they can't kill the monster, but because a second monster wanders in and beats him up. Or maybe it's because his healer friend keeps leaving the keyboard to get drinks or snacks or use the restroom. Or maybe his healer friend shouldn't be at the level he's at, but is anyway because it's his friends that are dying, not him.
If we "levelled up" after each encounter and "levelled down" after each death, then yes, I could see this being fairly valid, but most games are more about grinding than proving one's tactical prowness. And death penalties also encourage another bit of gameplay that's not too likable, that of doing very unheroic acts. If there's a penalty for death, why fight something that's an even match when you can fight a bunch of easier monsters and gurantee not dying? Smaller death penalty makes players go out and try more things.
Okay, good points here, but I wanted to address a couple things.
If your friend can't find the right time between encounters to go grab a snack or take a bio-break, then is that a problem in the game's design or the player? And yes, if you can't beat the experience loss on death then you shouldn't achieve the next level. That's the entire point behind death penalties. Kinda sucks and makes players play more conservative, but that's what makes the true even-match 50/50 situations really fun. Also from a balance perspective, you shouldn't be able to get away with real viable experience from leveling on trash mobs..
And yes, of course a smaller death penalty allows for players to try more things, but a small enough penalty also allows more room for tactical error, and if it comes to the point that tactical error is rewarded over time instead of punished, then why bother worry about dying? It's really a balancing act between easy and harsh penalty.
What about when a death is not a player's own fault? Like I said earlier with respect to healers... When a healer screws up, generally the rest of the party suffers and the healer has plenty of time to save his own skin. Is it right that other players are penalized for this? Is it right that this healer continues to advance despite not being able to handle the challenges? Death penalties can be harsh, and when it's also misapplied, it's often viewed as being unreasonable. If it's a slap on the wrist, like in, say, Guild Wars, then one usually doesn't worry too much about having to rely on other people.
Originally posted by Mylon What about when a death is not a player's own fault?
Two words answer this" #1 Pops, #2 Adds. Can you honestly say you've maxed out a character in any MMO without dying, ever? Post a transcript of the combat log to prove it, and I will consider your point validated. Otherwise, it's just hot air.
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Originally posted by Mylon Originally posted by Woob Okay, so since our player couldn't handle a given encounter for whatever reason at the current difficulty, why should a player keep playing at that difficulty if it has already been shown that he/she isn't experienced enough either literally or on paper? So some kind of penalty must be applied to the development of the character. Since we can't zap our brains to make us less intelligent, we have to take away some of the item/cash/experience pools. Sort of knock us down a peg so we can properly prepare ourselves for the difficulty that we couldn't take on before. ChrisExcept that this isn't how most games work. Generally it's more like, "Bash monster 50 times until level". If the death penalty is 10% of TNL, and the player dies to 1 out of every 10 monsters, then they are stuck at their level. Why? Not necessarily because they can't kill the monster, but because a second monster wanders in and beats him up. Or maybe it's because his healer friend keeps leaving the keyboard to get drinks or snacks or use the restroom. Or maybe his healer friend shouldn't be at the level he's at, but is anyway because it's his friends that are dying, not him.If we "levelled up" after each encounter and "levelled down" after each death, then yes, I could see this being fairly valid, but most games are more about grinding than proving one's tactical prowness. And death penalties also encourage another bit of gameplay that's not too likable, that of doing very unheroic acts. If there's a penalty for death, why fight something that's an even match when you can fight a bunch of easier monsters and gurantee not dying? Smaller death penalty makes players go out and try more things.
Death penalties are there to teach you to play the game properly. Died because another monster wandered in? It's trying to teach you how to be aware and avoid links, and handle them when they occur. Most games have a sleep spell. Died because your healer went AFK without telling anybody? The death penalty is trying to teach you to party with people who do their jobs. (No, I don't expect healers, or anybody, to play without any kind of break for biological necessities or other things. I do expect them to TELL THE PARTY when they do this)
It's the lack of a death penalty that makes a game about grinding instead of about tactical prowess. Since there's no penalty for doing stupid stuff, you don't need to learn anything, do you? Just grind, you'll get there.
Originally posted by Mylon What about when a death is not a player's own fault?
Two words answer this" #1 Pops, #2 Adds. Can you honestly say you've maxed out a character in any MMO without dying, ever? Post a transcript of the combat log to prove it, and I will consider your point validated. Otherwise, it's just hot air.
One word answers that: "Sleep".
Do you never die? Of course not. Sometimes you're not on top of your game, sometimes there is just bad luck. But most deaths are not bad luck but bad play. It's not by chance IMHO that the examples put out upthread of "bad luck" were actually examples of bad play. I'd say that in FFXI, I've lost no more than 5% of the experience I've earned to death penalties, probably less. If you work at it and avoid mistakes, the death penalty is a slight irritation at worst.
Originally posted by ChrisMattern One word answers that: "Sleep". Do you never die? Of course not. Sometimes you're not on top of your game, sometimes there is just bad luck. But most deaths are not bad luck but bad play. It's not by chance IMHO that the examples put out upthread of "bad luck" were actually examples of bad play. I'd say that in FFXI, I've lost no more than 5% of the experience I've earned to death penalties, probably less. If you work at it and avoid mistakes, the death penalty is a slight irritation at worst.
Chris Mattern
Nail, head.
This is pretty much dead on. The only time I've died in MMOGs that I do not attribute some poor play/judgement on my part to is when I go linkdead or the servers hang--something along that lines.
I think it's a justifiable penalty for doing something unintelligent. Thus it's an appropriate penalty in MMORPGs where death is normally avoidable with intelligent play.
that is the dumbest thing i ever heard, why should a game harshly punsih me for someone else's screw up, when things go wrong , it could have been due to any number of mistakes made by any of the players. If im doing my job right and someone else isn't, I hardly see why I should get punished because someone is doing something unintelligent...matter of fact i think what you said there was pretty unintelligent.
I think it's a justifiable penalty for doing something unintelligent. Thus it's an appropriate penalty in MMORPGs where death is normally avoidable with intelligent play.that is the dumbest thing i ever heard, why should a game harshly punsih me for someone else's screw up, when things go wrong , it could have been due to any number of mistakes made by any of the players. If im doing my job right and someone else isn't, I hardly see why I should get punished because someone is doing something unintelligent...matter of fact i think what you said there was pretty unintelligent.
Partying with people who have demonstrated that they can get you killed is hardly intelligent play...
i hate experience loss... i dont mind items becasue they can be bought back or possibly that is just an excuse to go look for different/better items. i kind of get aggrovated at gold loss though
also some classes are much more destined todie than others (i.e. tank) it just seems like if it gets people angry then it shouldnt be in a game which is ment for enjoyment
Originally posted by b0rderline99 i hate experience loss... i dont mind items becasue they can be bought back or possibly that is just an excuse to go look for different/better items. i kind of get aggrovated at gold loss though
wow has the best death system imho
I think you just ruined your credability friend. WoW has no death system. There is no risk invovled anywhere in the game for the simple reason there is no real negative effect to death, especially when compared to other MMOs. The worst thing that happens to you in WoW is you die, you wake up 10 seconds from the instance and run back, and pay a few gold o repair your stuff, this is all assuming that one of the 3+ forms of raid recovery doesnt kick in. There is no thrill in this game, because there is no fear of death, which means there is hardly any feeling of satisfaction when you accomplish something because frankly anyone can do it.
Playing WoW is like a baseball little league where everyone gets a trohpy regardless of what place their team comes in. Kind of diminishes the value of that trophy doesn't it?
Originally posted by Paragus1 Originally posted by b0rderline99 i hate experience loss... i dont mind items becasue they can be bought back or possibly that is just an excuse to go look for different/better items. i kind of get aggrovated at gold loss though
wow has the best death system imho
I think you just ruined your credability friend. WoW has no death system. There is no risk invovled anywhere in the game for the simple reason there is no real negative effect to death, especially when compared to other MMOs. The worst thing that happens to you in WoW is you die, you wake up 10 seconds from the instance and run back, and pay a few gold o repair your stuff, this is all assuming that one of the 3+ forms of raid recovery doesnt kick in. There is no thrill in this game, because there is no fear of death, which means there is hardly any feeling of satisfaction when you accomplish something because frankly anyone can do it.
Playing WoW is like a baseball little league where everyone gets a trohpy regardless of what place their team comes in. Kind of diminishes the value of that trophy doesn't it?
wow does have a death penalty system, u lose 10% of your item durability and u have to run back to youro corpse, who's the one that lost some credibility now?
And elite memeber, the chances of finding the same ppl to group with all the time is near impossible, certainly you'll run into someone you've grouped with before, but the likelyhood of doing it with the whole group on when YOU want to play is impractical and hence people take chances with new people...hell even so, how do you expect to meet new people if you don't group with them. Are you going to go around askin if they are stupid or not first? Good luck.
wow does have a death penalty system, u lose 10% of your item durability and u have to run back to youro corpse, who's the one that lost some credibility now?
LOL, you call that a death penality? If I literally smacked you on the wrists for commiting a crime in real life, would you consider that a penalty? The "Walk" back to your corpse is never longer then 30 secs in the end game, as every raid instance has graveyards right outside. 10% item durability which costs a minor amount of money is trivialized by the fact there is absolutely nothing else to spend your money on in the end game except repairs and pots. The penalty is a joke in its best day, and in no way inspires an excitement or fear of death, thus the feeling of risk is non existant, which in turn trivializes the accomplishment of any reward. If you think the above statement is a "real" death penalty, Im going to wager WoW is your first MMO.
wow does have a death penalty system, u lose 10% of your item durability and u have to run back to youro corpse, who's the one that lost some credibility now?
LOL, you call that a death penality? If I literally smacked you on the wrists for commiting a crime in real life, would you consider that a penalty? The "Walk" back to your corpse is never longer then 30 secs in the end game, as every raid instance has graveyards right outside. 10% item durability which costs a minor amount of money is trivialized by the fact there is absolutely nothing else to spend your money on in the end game except repairs and pots. The penalty is a joke in its best day, and in no way inspires an excitement or fear of death, thus the feeling of risk is non existant, which in turn trivializes the accomplishment of any reward. If you think the above statement is a "real" death penalty, Im going to wager WoW is your first MMO.
minor costs? are u stupid, it costs me 7.5 gold per death, thats what u pay for having teir 2, and that price is only going up with each new teir my friend, oh and im a rogue, i can only imagine what the poor warriors and pallys pay for repairing plate. Also i dont give a rats ass about what OTHER mmo's did, farming for 7g a death takes time, just like farming back for xp, wow what a concept! they BOTH take time to recover from. Mind you, sometimes you have to spirit rez and thats going to cost you at least 10 minutes of doing nothing, and 25% durability loss on ALL your items including the ones in your bags. If your half a decent player you're going to carry 2 sets of items for diffierent situations, having all of them getting hurt puts a nice hole in your wallet.
Originally posted by Paragus1 Originally posted by b0rderline99 i hate experience loss... i dont mind items becasue they can be bought back or possibly that is just an excuse to go look for different/better items. i kind of get aggrovated at gold loss though
wow has the best death system imho
I think you just ruined your credability friend. WoW has no death system. There is no risk invovled anywhere in the game for the simple reason there is no real negative effect to death, especially when compared to other MMOs. The worst thing that happens to you in WoW is you die, you wake up 10 seconds from the instance and run back, and pay a few gold o repair your stuff, this is all assuming that one of the 3+ forms of raid recovery doesnt kick in. There is no thrill in this game, because there is no fear of death, which means there is hardly any feeling of satisfaction when you accomplish something because frankly anyone can do it.
Playing WoW is like a baseball little league where everyone gets a trohpy regardless of what place their team comes in. Kind of diminishes the value of that trophy doesn't it?
um, Everybody can do anything in MMO's if there is a death penalty or not. Even with a death penalty where you lose XP or items its nothing more then time you lose. In Lineage 2, a game that has both item drop and XP loss everybody can reach the cap. but anybody can reach the cap (unless your doing something seriously, and I really mean seriously wrong). Item/XP loss is nothing more then time loss. if you lose an item, you kill slower because you most likely have to settle with a less powerfull item, and with an xp loss you have to just do it all over again.
Originally posted by Mylon What about when a death is not a player's own fault? Like I said earlier with respect to healers... When a healer screws up, generally the rest of the party suffers and the healer has plenty of time to save his own skin. Is it right that other players are penalized for this? Is it right that this healer continues to advance despite not being able to handle the challenges? Death penalties can be harsh, and when it's also misapplied, it's often viewed as being unreasonable. If it's a slap on the wrist, like in, say, Guild Wars, then one usually doesn't worry too much about having to rely on other people.
sure, you shouldn't have grouped with that guy! Not all healers are equal.
Got a crappy internet connection causing you death? Get a better one.
Originally posted by Genoism Originally posted by Paragus1
wow does have a death penalty system, u lose 10% of your item durability and u have to run back to youro corpse, who's the one that lost some credibility now?
LOL, you call that a death penality? If I literally smacked you on the wrists for commiting a crime in real life, would you consider that a penalty? The "Walk" back to your corpse is never longer then 30 secs in the end game, as every raid instance has graveyards right outside. 10% item durability which costs a minor amount of money is trivialized by the fact there is absolutely nothing else to spend your money on in the end game except repairs and pots. The penalty is a joke in its best day, and in no way inspires an excitement or fear of death, thus the feeling of risk is non existant, which in turn trivializes the accomplishment of any reward. If you think the above statement is a "real" death penalty, Im going to wager WoW is your first MMO.
minor costs? are u stupid, it costs me 7.5 gold per death, thats what u pay for having teir 2, and that price is only going up with each new teir my friend, oh and im a rogue, i can only imagine what the poor warriors and pallys pay for repairing plate. Also i dont give a rats ass about what OTHER mmo's did, farming for 7g a death takes time, just like farming back for xp, wow what a concept! they BOTH take time to recover from. Mind you, sometimes you have to spirit rez and thats going to cost you at least 10 minutes of doing nothing, and 25% durability loss on ALL your items including the ones in your bags. If your half a decent player you're going to carry 2 sets of items for diffierent situations, having all of them getting hurt puts a nice hole in your wallet.
Maybe that game or players in that game are too gear focused. If gear didn't need to be so uber to get players jumping through the hoop, then you could make gear easier to aquire and thus the loss isn't as big.
Comments
I think people are responsible for their own happiness.
It's called a timesink. Thats all it is, thats all its ever going to be. You lose 10% exp for a death, cool. Now thats another hour or so of grinding you have to do, thus increasing the time it takes to get to the end.
You lose your gear? Well despite this being realistic, it is not really the best thing to a mmorpg.
Losing your gear would indeed give crafters alot more role into the world. But at what cost? One death=hours of regearing? Once again thats just another timesink, and a excuse to add in less content.
I'm truely sorry, i play mmorpgs to get to a goal, or to have fun. Having to constantly regear, or grind up lost exp all over again, is not fun. It will never be fun, and it never was fun
Debts or stat reductions are more exceptable as long as they are a reasonable amount. It still allows you to progress onwards yet at a slower rate. It may be the same result in the end, but it is alot less frustrating.
Games don't need timesinks, or money sinks(repair costs, auction house fees) to be enjoyable. WoWs death penalty wasn't a problem. In fact its probably what saved the game. DAoC did it decently with its grave system, but in pvp it didn't make you lose exp and delevel.
Monopoly is different then a mmorpg so you can't really compare it. In monopoly your playing to win, and beat your friends. In a mmorpg, your not really playing to win, your playing to progress. And your win doesnt "beat" anyone else.(unless its a pvp match but if you add exp penalties, gear penalties, or too big of a death penalty, you really are cheapening pvp, and it changes from a way to fight people, to a even bigger way to grief. And the people who only moderately enjoy pvp occassionally will avoid it like the plague)
I really like discussing death penalties in MMOGs. It's one of those "thin ice" topics. But I feel they are very required for a worthwhile experience overall.
Okay, to understand why we should or should not progress in these games we should first understand how we do progress.
Characters in MMOGs progress in terms of tactics (actual player skill and theory acquired) and statistics (Your experience, money, and item pools of which to draw from for better gear). Now theoretically part of balancing is to curve or scale a character's statistic development to be on par with tactic development. How we measure tactic and statistic development is easy: You take knowns like gear or experience level a player is expected to bring to a particular encouter, and compare it to the difficulty level of that particular enocunter. If a character defeats the encounter, we know the character is entitled enough to receive benefits appropriate to the difficulty level of the encounter. Now if a character gets defeated, (i.e. dies), then we know the character wasn't prepared for the encounter in one of the two terms above, stastically or tactically. This is where we implement death penalty. If neither the player or character were defeated, no advancement anyway, so that takes care of itself. (If you want to look at it as simply as possible, if you defeat an encounter: +1, defeated by the encounter: -1, neither party is defeated: +/- 0)
Okay, so since our player couldn't handle a given encounter for whatever reason at the current difficulty, why should a player keep playing at that difficulty if it has already been shown that he/she isn't experienced enough either literally or on paper? So some kind of penalty must be applied to the development of the character. Since we can't zap our brains to make us less intelligent, we have to take away some of the item/cash/experience pools. Sort of knock us down a peg so we can properly prepare ourselves for the difficulty that we couldn't take on before.
To what extent this happens is up to the developers of the game. Whether it be 2 minutes of runtime and a very small fraction of money or be an entire experience level and half of your equipment.
That's just one view and a little insight on the theory. It's one I like because it fits both a learning curve and item acquisition in the process. Also, if I get to be the level/ cap, I want to be considered pretty badass, not just because I invested x playtime with little to no effort. I didn't even get into the rush that one would get in a near-death encounter when something's actually on the line.
Edit: Corrected order of paragraphs
Feedback appreciated.
Peace,
Chris
If we "levelled up" after each encounter and "levelled down" after each death, then yes, I could see this being fairly valid, but most games are more about grinding than proving one's tactical prowness. And death penalties also encourage another bit of gameplay that's not too likable, that of doing very unheroic acts. If there's a penalty for death, why fight something that's an even match when you can fight a bunch of easier monsters and gurantee not dying? Smaller death penalty makes players go out and try more things.
If we "levelled up" after each encounter and "levelled down" after each death, then yes, I could see this being fairly valid, but most games are more about grinding than proving one's tactical prowness. And death penalties also encourage another bit of gameplay that's not too likable, that of doing very unheroic acts. If there's a penalty for death, why fight something that's an even match when you can fight a bunch of easier monsters and gurantee not dying? Smaller death penalty makes players go out and try more things.
Okay, good points here, but I wanted to address a couple things.
If your friend can't find the right time between encounters to go grab a snack or take a bio-break, then is that a problem in the game's design or the player? And yes, if you can't beat the experience loss on death then you shouldn't achieve the next level. That's the entire point behind death penalties. Kinda sucks and makes players play more conservative, but that's what makes the true even-match 50/50 situations really fun. Also from a balance perspective, you shouldn't be able to get away with real viable experience from leveling on trash mobs..
And yes, of course a smaller death penalty allows for players to try more things, but a small enough penalty also allows more room for tactical error, and if it comes to the point that tactical error is rewarded over time instead of punished, then why bother worry about dying? It's really a balancing act between easy and harsh penalty.
Peace,
Chris
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Two words answer this" #1 Pops, #2 Adds. Can you honestly say you've maxed out a character in any MMO without dying, ever? Post a transcript of the combat log to prove it, and I will consider your point validated. Otherwise, it's just hot air.
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Death penalties are there to teach you to play the game properly. Died because another monster wandered in? It's trying to teach you how to be aware and avoid links, and handle them when they occur. Most games have a sleep spell. Died because your healer went AFK without telling anybody? The death penalty is trying to teach you to party with people who do their jobs. (No, I don't expect healers, or anybody, to play without any kind of break for biological necessities or other things. I do expect them to TELL THE PARTY when they do this)
It's the lack of a death penalty that makes a game about grinding instead of about tactical prowess. Since there's no penalty for doing stupid stuff, you don't need to learn anything, do you? Just grind, you'll get there.
Chris Mattern
Originally posted by Souldrainer
Two words answer this" #1 Pops, #2 Adds. Can you honestly say you've maxed out a character in any MMO without dying, ever? Post a transcript of the combat log to prove it, and I will consider your point validated. Otherwise, it's just hot air.
One word answers that: "Sleep".
Do you never die? Of course not. Sometimes you're not on top of your game, sometimes there is just bad luck. But most deaths are not bad luck but bad play. It's not by chance IMHO that the examples put out upthread of "bad luck" were actually examples of bad play. I'd say that in FFXI, I've lost no more than 5% of the experience I've earned to death penalties, probably less. If you work at it and avoid mistakes, the death penalty is a slight irritation at worst.
Chris Mattern
Nail, head.
This is pretty much dead on. The only time I've died in MMOGs that I do not attribute some poor play/judgement on my part to is when I go linkdead or the servers hang--something along that lines.
Peace,
Chris
I think it's a justifiable penalty for doing something unintelligent. Thus it's an appropriate penalty in MMORPGs where death is normally avoidable with intelligent play.
that is the dumbest thing i ever heard, why should a game harshly punsih me for someone else's screw up, when things go wrong , it could have been due to any number of mistakes made by any of the players. If im doing my job right and someone else isn't, I hardly see why I should get punished because someone is doing something unintelligent...matter of fact i think what you said there was pretty unintelligent.Partying with people who have demonstrated that they can get you killed is hardly intelligent play...
Chris Mattern
wow has the best death system imho
Playing WoW is like a baseball little league where everyone gets a trohpy regardless of what place their team comes in. Kind of diminishes the value of that trophy doesn't it?
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Playing WoW is like a baseball little league where everyone gets a trohpy regardless of what place their team comes in. Kind of diminishes the value of that trophy doesn't it?
wow does have a death penalty system, u lose 10% of your item durability and u have to run back to youro corpse, who's the one that lost some credibility now?
And elite memeber, the chances of finding the same ppl to group with all the time is near impossible, certainly you'll run into someone you've grouped with before, but the likelyhood of doing it with the whole group on when YOU want to play is impractical and hence people take chances with new people...hell even so, how do you expect to meet new people if you don't group with them. Are you going to go around askin if they are stupid or not first? Good luck.
LOL, you call that a death penality? If I literally smacked you on the wrists for commiting a crime in real life, would you consider that a penalty? The "Walk" back to your corpse is never longer then 30 secs in the end game, as every raid instance has graveyards right outside. 10% item durability which costs a minor amount of money is trivialized by the fact there is absolutely nothing else to spend your money on in the end game except repairs and pots. The penalty is a joke in its best day, and in no way inspires an excitement or fear of death, thus the feeling of risk is non existant, which in turn trivializes the accomplishment of any reward. If you think the above statement is a "real" death penalty, Im going to wager WoW is your first MMO.
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LOL, you call that a death penality? If I literally smacked you on the wrists for commiting a crime in real life, would you consider that a penalty? The "Walk" back to your corpse is never longer then 30 secs in the end game, as every raid instance has graveyards right outside. 10% item durability which costs a minor amount of money is trivialized by the fact there is absolutely nothing else to spend your money on in the end game except repairs and pots. The penalty is a joke in its best day, and in no way inspires an excitement or fear of death, thus the feeling of risk is non existant, which in turn trivializes the accomplishment of any reward. If you think the above statement is a "real" death penalty, Im going to wager WoW is your first MMO.
minor costs? are u stupid, it costs me 7.5 gold per death, thats what u pay for having teir 2, and that price is only going up with each new teir my friend, oh and im a rogue, i can only imagine what the poor warriors and pallys pay for repairing plate. Also i dont give a rats ass about what OTHER mmo's did, farming for 7g a death takes time, just like farming back for xp, wow what a concept! they BOTH take time to recover from.
Mind you, sometimes you have to spirit rez and thats going to cost you at least 10 minutes of doing nothing, and 25% durability loss on ALL your items including the ones in your bags. If your half a decent player you're going to carry 2 sets of items for diffierent situations, having all of them getting hurt puts a nice hole in your wallet.
Playing WoW is like a baseball little league where everyone gets a trohpy regardless of what place their team comes in. Kind of diminishes the value of that trophy doesn't it?
um, Everybody can do anything in MMO's if there is a death penalty or not. Even with a death penalty where you lose XP or items its nothing more then time you lose. In Lineage 2, a game that has both item drop and XP loss everybody can reach the cap. but anybody can reach the cap (unless your doing something seriously, and I really mean seriously wrong). Item/XP loss is nothing more then time loss. if you lose an item, you kill slower because you most likely have to settle with a less powerfull item, and with an xp loss you have to just do it all over again.
sure, you shouldn't have grouped with that guy! Not all healers are equal.
Got a crappy internet connection causing you death? Get a better one.
Got a sub-par PC? Get a on par one.
LOL, you call that a death penality? If I literally smacked you on the wrists for commiting a crime in real life, would you consider that a penalty? The "Walk" back to your corpse is never longer then 30 secs in the end game, as every raid instance has graveyards right outside. 10% item durability which costs a minor amount of money is trivialized by the fact there is absolutely nothing else to spend your money on in the end game except repairs and pots. The penalty is a joke in its best day, and in no way inspires an excitement or fear of death, thus the feeling of risk is non existant, which in turn trivializes the accomplishment of any reward. If you think the above statement is a "real" death penalty, Im going to wager WoW is your first MMO.
minor costs? are u stupid, it costs me 7.5 gold per death, thats what u pay for having teir 2, and that price is only going up with each new teir my friend, oh and im a rogue, i can only imagine what the poor warriors and pallys pay for repairing plate. Also i dont give a rats ass about what OTHER mmo's did, farming for 7g a death takes time, just like farming back for xp, wow what a concept! they BOTH take time to recover from.
Mind you, sometimes you have to spirit rez and thats going to cost you at least 10 minutes of doing nothing, and 25% durability loss on ALL your items including the ones in your bags. If your half a decent player you're going to carry 2 sets of items for diffierent situations, having all of them getting hurt puts a nice hole in your wallet.
Maybe that game or players in that game are too gear focused. If gear didn't need to be so uber to get players jumping through the hoop, then you could make gear easier to aquire and thus the loss isn't as big.