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Gay Marriage and American Ideals
reavo
Member Posts: 2,173
Gay Marriage & TR
I predict this thread won't be as popular as the other gay marriage threads, but I wanted to get one started just to show the other side of this issue. Not the emotional side, or the knee jerk religious side of it. But the side that someone who might study the tenets of America's foundations might consider.
I know anyone can post here, but I ask if you decide to give your opinion to first read the linked article above ("Gay Marriage & TR" [Theodore Roosevelt]). It's short and to the point. And it will help lead the discussion in the right direction. And I also ask that if you respond you also try to keep in mind the ideas that America was founded on. And how those ideas were intended to evolve. When doing so, you might consider how the Supreme Court has interpreted some cases they have chosen to hear concerning church and state. And to be fair, you might also consider how some state Supreme Courts have recently ruled on this issue as well (i.e. New York and Georgia).
In other words this could be a Constitutional debate as well as a gay marriage debate. I want it to be something a little more than one of the, "well I'm a southern Baptist, Methodist, (insert Protestant whatever), and my daddy said them gays gonna burn in hell so we need a ban on gay marriage" arguments. Please, try to keep it intellectually deeper than that. If you feel the need to head off in that direction, that's what The Pub at MMORPG.com is for.
However, if you feel the need to say something along the lines of this is a Judeo/Christian nation, and can argue that point really well, then PLEASE feel free. Because I would absolutely love to see what people have to say about that.
Just keep it civil and respectful PLEASE!!!! Not everyone thinks like you, and aren't you glad?
I predict this thread won't be as popular as the other gay marriage threads, but I wanted to get one started just to show the other side of this issue. Not the emotional side, or the knee jerk religious side of it. But the side that someone who might study the tenets of America's foundations might consider.
I know anyone can post here, but I ask if you decide to give your opinion to first read the linked article above ("Gay Marriage & TR" [Theodore Roosevelt]). It's short and to the point. And it will help lead the discussion in the right direction. And I also ask that if you respond you also try to keep in mind the ideas that America was founded on. And how those ideas were intended to evolve. When doing so, you might consider how the Supreme Court has interpreted some cases they have chosen to hear concerning church and state. And to be fair, you might also consider how some state Supreme Courts have recently ruled on this issue as well (i.e. New York and Georgia).
In other words this could be a Constitutional debate as well as a gay marriage debate. I want it to be something a little more than one of the, "well I'm a southern Baptist, Methodist, (insert Protestant whatever), and my daddy said them gays gonna burn in hell so we need a ban on gay marriage" arguments. Please, try to keep it intellectually deeper than that. If you feel the need to head off in that direction, that's what The Pub at MMORPG.com is for.
However, if you feel the need to say something along the lines of this is a Judeo/Christian nation, and can argue that point really well, then PLEASE feel free. Because I would absolutely love to see what people have to say about that. Just keep it civil and respectful PLEASE!!!! Not everyone thinks like you, and aren't you glad?
Comments
hey you were one of the people that was agruing with me right? =D seems like you want an unbiased view of
the gays/les without the religous fights =D. Well either way i'm agaisnt it but good luck to you!
Not true homosexuallity has a lot to do with religeons and their beliefs. btw why do you have to post so
many? just put it all on one page...
god not you again..your 14 you know nothing about live..how can you even fathom an opinion...just because your mother says its right doesnt mean its right.
I'm not refering just to christianity but to every religeon. And the the hell says i listen to my mom? dunt be
ageist pls (made up word), now everyone already knows that i'm 14 so what?
If gay marriage actually harms anyone, can you tell me how? I've never been affected by it, and neither has anyone that i know.
I say "Live and Let Live" should be our government policy.
It is interesting how the conservitive right used to try to keep the government from taking our rights, and are now trying to destroy them.
On a different note, what is it with people like you, Ronan, that have it in for people that are younger? Do you think that they are not capable of intelligent discussion? Ignorance, such as that, pisses me off.
Stop rehashing threads. Make something original.
Professor Hubert Farnsworth - That question is less stupid but, you asked it in a profoundly stupid way.
When it comes to civil rights and liberty, I don't see where religious doctrine has a place in the argument at all. Our government promises religious rights. You are free to practice those as you see fit in your own space. But our Constitution does not give you the right to start telling other people that they have to live by your religious doctrines. When you do that you are infringing on other rights. That is then not just disrespectful, but illegal.
We have federal doctrines that we all live by. You have your religious doctrines that you live by. Your religious doctrines do not cover me. I wanted this debate to be about federal doctrines.
If gay marriage actually harms anyone, can you tell me how? I've never been affected by it, and neither has anyone that i know.
I say "Live and Let Live" should be our government policy.
It is interesting how the conservitive right used to try to keep the government from taking our rights, and are now trying to destroy them.
On a different note, what is it with people like you, Ronan, that have it in for people that are younger? Do you think that they are not capable of intelligent discussion? Ignorance, such as that, pisses me off.
Thank you. Someone actually stayed on topic. Let me go add you to my favorite members list. Hehe.
I did not intend this to be a religious debate. Not in any way shape or form.
I said, the closest thing to a religious debate I would think this might get to being is if this is a Judeo/Christian society or not. If you want to step into that arena, then I could see you doing that on this topic. But be prepared to defend yourself against an onslaught. Because I'm loaded.
Read the link I posted and respond to that if you're confused. It's a good article, I promise.
The Bible clearly states Homosexuality is a Sin
want me to quote it for you?
Leviticus: Lev 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination."
want more?
Genesis 19: 1-13
Romans 1: 24-27
1 Corinthians 6:9
all state clearly homosexuality is a sin.
my personal opinion? everybody who thinks homosexuality is wrong and that gay marriages should be forbidden should get himself (or herself) checked. Did homosexuals CHOSE to be gay? No they didn't. why should homosexuals be seen as outcast? why shouldn't homosexuals be allowed to marry? Don't give me crap like "blabla the bible, blabla god doesn't like gays and yadayda", because I don't believe in fairy tales. does it hurt you when gay people marry? NO! it doesn't even affect you in any way.
and I'm glad I live in a country where gay marriage is allowed.
The Bible clearly states Homosexuality is a Sin
want me to quote it for you?
Leviticus: Lev 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination."
want more?
Genesis 19: 1-13
Romans 1: 24-27
1 Corinthians 6:9
all state clearly homosexuality is a sin.
my personal opinion? everybody who thinks homosexuality is wrong and that gay marriages should be forbidden should get himself checked. Did homosexuals CHOSE to be gay? No they didn't. why should homosexuals be seen as outcast? why shouldn't homosexuals be allowed to marry? Don't give me crap like "blabla the bible, blabla god doesn't like gays and yadayda", because I don't believe in fairy tales. does it hurt you when gay people marry? NO! it doesn't even affect you in any way.
and I'm glad I live in a country where gay marriage is allowed.
Please, don't make this into a religious debate! It need not be.
Other than that, I agree with you 100%
The Bible clearly states Homosexuality is a Sin
want me to quote it for you?
Leviticus: Lev 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination."
want more?
Genesis 19: 1-13
Romans 1: 24-27
1 Corinthians 6:9
all state clearly homosexuality is a sin.
my personal opinion? everybody who thinks homosexuality is wrong and that gay marriages should be forbidden should get himself checked. Did homosexuals CHOSE to be gay? No they didn't. why should homosexuals be seen as outcast? why shouldn't homosexuals be allowed to marry? Don't give me crap like "blabla the bible, blabla god doesn't like gays and yadayda", because I don't believe in fairy tales. does it hurt you when gay people marry? NO! it doesn't even affect you in any way.
and I'm glad I live in a country where gay marriage is allowed.
Please, don't make this into a religious debate! It need not be.
Other than that, I agree with you 100%
I apologize, but after the way ronan32 acted towards the other forum member, telling him he knows nothing, I couldn't resist to prove him wrong.
If they don't want to debate the legality of gay marriage then why not make marriage a religious issue only? But they don't want to do that either. And you know it's an emotional/religious issue because just now in Kansas they not only voted to ban gay marriage, but all civil unions as well. So, if that's not people voting with their emotions then what is?
And if a case belongs in front of the Supreme Court that one in Kansas does. For various reasons, such as discrimination and also letting one persons religion influence government policy over anothers.
If my religion says that gay marriage is fine (which it does by the way), then who is the state to say that they don't recognize it? And that's just where the government has ended up putting themselves. They are now having to pick and choose between religions.
--------------------------------------
Yep, the article spells it out just as plain as it can be said. I can't believe that the Republican Party still has themselves fooled into thinking they are the party of small less intrusive government. The religious right has taken over the Republican party and I have a feeling they are going to drive it into the ground before they can realize what to do about it. Issues such as this may give them the impression that they are galvinizing American's on their side, but what they don't realize is that a lot of us are getting really sick of the religious right.
The religious rights views are anti-American.
If they want to get involved politically, I say we start taxing them.
" Traditionally, American conservatives believed that government power
should be limited. Now, however, certain leaders of the "religious
right" want the federal government to expand its power over our
personal lives. They want to throttle lively debates about marriage
going on in states and local communities across America. "
-----------------------
</OBAMA>
Uhm...Not too long ago(like the last century), in most states homosexual acts were a felony. So how can people say this goes against the American ideal.
What, you think that the forefathers had a problem with the common law imported from england?
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
"""They (Angel Messengers) said: "O Lout (Lut)! Verily, we are the Messengers from your Lord! They shall not reach you! So travel with your family in a part of the night, and let not any of you look back, but your wife (will remain behind), verily, the punishment which will afflict them, will afflict her. Indeed, morning is their appointed time. Is not the morning near?"
So when Our Commandment came, We turned (the towns of Sodom) upside down, and rained on them stones of baked clay, piled up;
Marked from your Lord, and they are not ever far from the Zalimun (evil-doers)."""
Qur'an Chapter 11 verses 81-83.
the towns of Sodom, now remember the word Sodemite? Sodemizer? not sure which, those who practice the same thing the people of Sodom did, Homosexuality.
Find any resamblance in the Bible of these verses? yes you do?
so it's clear that God hates homosexuality and therefore Homosexuals and Sodemizers.
Sodemizing or Sodomizing is having sex through the Anus, whether it's a male or a female, it's the same thing.
and God placed a severe punishment for those who does this, in life and after death.
in life, diseases and whatsoever.
and after death, in hell.
to be honest, i don't care whether people quit being gay or not, but i care when at least my message reaches you, and then you give it a thought, if you didn't, don't cry to God when you see the gates of hell infront of you.
umm, that's it, good luck.
The ideas that are in the Constitution take time to mature. Our society has had to grow to fit the ideas that the founding fathers had. They couldn't just do away with slavery overnight, yet now it is gone.
I think that the ideas that are in the Constitution take a lot of thought and intellect. In order to live by them you have to consider a free society and what that means. It means accepting the fact that people are different and have their own pursuit of happiness, unlike yours. And they are given that pursuit as a right spelled out by our laws.
Do you disagree with the article that I linked up to in my original post?
Tomorrow i m gonna quit being straight, must say bye bye to my wife, must tell her " hey girl, sorry but, i decided i m gay now" lol
and those topic highjacks must stop...
Back on topic, I m not a US citizen so i dont think i should really post in it, but i m gonna give my opinion anyway... i really think all the governements that start mixing religion and politics are doomed, and i really think that anybody should be able to marry anybody they want, and if the governement gave special benefits to those married ppl, then it must take all the tax benefits out of itl... marriage is not sacred anymore (if it ever was) ppl marry, divorce, remarry and redivorce, they just marry to get those benefits... tell me, is that faith or capitalism?
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
For your sake reavo, i found this article for you.
http://roughdraft.typepad.com/dotmoms/2005/06/why_this_mama_b.html
you say its clear that god hates homosexuality. lets get one thing right. The bible (or the koran, whatever your religion is) is created by MAN. its NOT a book send us by god from the heavens. its written by HUMAN BEINGS. there has NEVER, EVER been proof found that a god, or even ANYTHING discribed in the bible or the koran exists.
to quote a famous person:
"Many have made a trade of delusions and false miracles, deceiving the stupid multitude."
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretche mortals, open your eyes!"
-Leonardo Da Vinci
homosexuality also completely clashes with both religions. according to the bible, God created earth and mankind and everything we see here has been created by god. that means that GOD created homosexuality as well. let me once again state a person does not CHOSE to become homosexual. he is born with it. also, your last statement is absolutely rediculous: "i don't care whether people quit being gay or not"
You Can't just QUIT being gay, it is not something you decide on a hot summer day "hm, I think I'll go do some homosexual acts, I'm bored".
here, one of the comments in the link you provided:
"I believe homosexuality is a choice, a wrong choice."
this person is just as clueless as you are. Homosexuality is NOT a choice. its something you were born with. just like hetero's.