Originally posted by Manmadegod Originally posted by tjvoodoo Originally posted by Manmadegod My generation = Battle Hardened
New Generation = Pussies.
Next Generation = Worse than New Gen.
I am 21 and agree with OP. I am from Kentucky where beatings are readily handed out to kids. Although to much lesser extent now than when I was growing up and man can you tell it.
Can you please backup your claims - i have played with the younger generation on ceratain FPS's and while some gripe about kills other will comment on how good a shot it was. Shrug, I don't have cold hard facts for you. I just have my observations and as a person who looks at things from a scientific view and not a sociological point of view. It's all that I need to believe that I am right.
Sorry, as someone who does look at things logically (or scientifically, choose your word) I call BS. If you're looking at it logically you would have examples and have at least tried to quantify your statement. Instead you made EXTREMELY Broad generalizations with no data to back up your answers.
To the OP: I think you are over-generalizing just a bit but your theory isn't entirely baseless. Most of the older generation of MMORPG players have some ground in Pen and Paper roleplaying and, thus, tend to look for games that cater to that mind set. The vast majority of the "WoW" fanbase very likely have enver even heard of most Pen and Paper RPG's, let alone played them. I tried WoW in beta and also after release. Most of the discussions I experienced were players talking about what other Video games they had played and compared WoW to that. (Not even RPG's really, just video games in general. Though NUMEROUS players had played the Warcraft games as well as Diablo.... when I think back I compare that to what I heard in UO and EQ .... people comparing game features to UO (in EQ) and people in UO comparing features of the game to Pen & Paper RPG's as well as the original Ultima games. And in Guild Wars it's absolutely stunning the number of players who have never even heard of games like UO, EQ, DAOC, etc.
The majority of gamers today have never played AD&D or Gamma World or even BattleTech (except in video game format) and, so, have very little experience in "creating their own worlds" So... yes... I think you may have a point that we're seeing 'watered down' RPG's because the game market has expanded BEYOND that playerbase. It's encompasing a MUCH broader spectrum of players now than it was even just 4 years ago. The market has grown and, because of that, game companies are trying to embrace larger parts of that market. Which winds up leaving the pioneers... the roleplayers... those of us who loved UO and EQ and M59 kind of out in the cold. Sure some of us can enjoy something like a Guild Wars or WoW.... but most of us pine for the days of UO and "old EQ" For example... while I do play Guild Wars (and even enjoy it to an extent) I still log into a 'classic' UO shard regularly to play and get back to 'the old days' of MMORPG's. Because I miss that special magic of roleplaying in a game.
But it's not really because of parenting or even sociology... it's more just a fact that the true 'roleplaying' market is very small, always has been. Even in the days of EQ it was relatively small compared to the overall playerbase. Heck, even in the 80's, when AD&D was "huge" it was still a very niche market. Most people who played AD&D were considered "geeks" just like most people in the late 80's and early 90's who worked on computers were considered 'geeks'. MMORPG's are growing... and as a result the smaller "Role playing" community is getting left behind. Unfortunately game companies don't want small. They want to maximize their profit. Unfortunately that means that many games will release with features that don't really cater to the roleplayers.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers." - Socrates (4 June, c.470 BC - 7 May 399 BC) Greek philosopher
Originally posted by blondeh I wasnt trying to blame the younger players but the society around us that teaches the younger people that lazy is ok. I was really just having thought running through my head and decided to write them down. The younger people didnt ask to br brought into the world. Its the world around them that has influenced there ideals
Thats just my opinion though Beatnik59 made some awsome points
Yeah my wife is an elementary school teacher and some of the things she says is quite chilling. They aren't allowed to have competitive sports in P.E. anymore because loosing might hurt someones feelings (as a result PE is down to 20 min a week and the kids are fat). Next they don't like them using textbooks in lessons because they are not very individualized. In addition to that they aren't allowed to use worksheets to reinfore the lesson they just tought, or assign more than the equivalent of 10 math problems for homework each night. Most incredible of all they have banned any form of punishment no detention no go to the corner no nothing just stop what you are doing please. All this stupidiy just reinforces laziness and sends a message that working for anything is bad. Political correctness and the liberals in charge of our education system have wrecked it. Being soft on kids is never the answer that just creates soft adults tough love like so many of us got as children before video games when we use to actually play outside.
The blame doesn't stop there however. Parents have not taken the time to reinforce good values to their children so when they show up to school they are self centered monsters. Since their parents were too lazy to enforce discipline they resorted to bribery to get things done. So guess what you have to do to get the little buggers to work in school? You guessed it you have to bribe the little buggers, and since we have all this standarized testing now that could cost the teacher their jobs if the little buggers flunk you bribe away to keep your job.
So how do you keep these little buggers entertained an immersed in a Star Wars experience?.
Problem is SOE broke every rule in the book (literally I have a business text book with these rules) on how to treat your existing customers to impliment it. Plus they were going for a target audience that was radically different from the customer base they already had. While there is a generational gap with every generation the I want kiddies seem to have vastly differnt values from the other generations that preceeded them. I can understand motivates my Grandfather's generation I can understand my father's generation, but I can't understand what motivates this new generation other than free handouts and blowing sunshine up their butts in the form of weak games with no challenge to reaffirm that they are "uber".
Enter Nancy Macintyre and her NGE. Is it any wonder the Christian Science Monitor called her a Visigoth of our time. Her game reinforces all of these negative behaviors.
Individuals, not society or parents or anyone else are responsible ultimately for who we are. Period.
How people act in the anonymous online world is very telling about who each individual really is, though they may or may not act the same in the real world at all. Who you are is who you are.
Originally posted by Athela Individuals, not society or parents or anyone else are responsible ultimately for who we are. Period. How people act in the anonymous online world is very telling about who each individual really is, though they may or may not act the same in the real world at all. Who you are is who you are.
Yes we are all individuals and to an extent we are who we are. But things around us influence our needs and wants. People actions can shape us as people. Like the discipline i received as a child etc. Alot of people here to a certain extent can relate to topic and agree on some points. Why? Because thats how we were brought up. Those things influenced our beleifs. People today may not have the same beleifs today because things around them are different now. Our beliefs influence our actions. Media inlfuences our likes and dislikes in products. Super skinny models are walking catwalks, percieved as being the most beutiful women, which in turn makes women and young girls today want to be skinny aswell.
So I agree that yes we are who we are but the world around us and what we are taught has a huge influence o the people we become.
Originally posted by Beatnik59 "What will become of our people with this new generation?" Egyptian tomb, 3000 BC.
I'm not so much into this, "these kids nowadays" type stuff. No matter what generation you are in, it seems kids are just going to be kids. However, no matter what generation you come from, something happens around 25 that makes you less suseptable to hype, more deliberate, more rational, and more cautious. The very things that cannot help but defeat Madison Avenue at every turn. That, more than anything else, is why SOE and others want the young folk. They don't have bills, they don't have anything they want to save for, and are easily separated from their disposable income. They don't have to work as hard to sell to them, then they do to sell to us. Also, game companies like MMOs for one reason, and one reason only: its something that they can issue a recurring bill for. Today's MMO is just an action game like Tomb Raider played on a common server. There is no emphasis on depth, because the only real goal is to create a game that can generate recurring bills. We adults have enough recurring bills, and the young ones don't have any.
first off im 29 yrs old and know what everyone is talking about, I agree adults have enough bills to pay for along with this gas crap, and the younger generation doesnt have any to pay for is because we are paying the bills for them, thus speaking "spoiling" them, they should get out and work for a living also. but anyway, there are alot of kids of the younger gen in games that i have ran into that down right screws the games up and then there are a few that know what they are doing which makes the game worth playing. So yes society has the blame in the nation today.
Originally posted by Aetius73 Originally posted by blondeh I wasnt trying to blame the younger players but the society around us that teaches the younger people that lazy is ok. I was really just having thought running through my head and decided to write them down. The younger people didnt ask to br brought into the world. Its the world around them that has influenced there ideals
Thats just my opinion though Beatnik59 made some awsome points
Yeah my wife is an elementary school teacher and some of the things she says is quite chilling. They aren't allowed to have competitive sports in P.E. anymore because loosing might hurt someones feelings (as a result PE is down to 20 min a week and the kids are fat). Next they don't like them using textbooks in lessons because they are not very individualized. In addition to that they aren't allowed to use worksheets to reinfore the lesson they just tought, or assign more than the equivalent of 10 math problems for homework each night. Most incredible of all they have banned any form of punishment no detention no go to the corner no nothing just stop what you are doing please. All this stupidiy just reinforces laziness and sends a message that working for anything is bad. Political correctness and the liberals in charge of our education system have wrecked it. Being soft on kids is never the answer that just creates soft adults tough love like so many of us got as children before video games when we use to actually play outside.
Wow where the hell does your wife teach? Remind me not to move there. Fortunately for my kids the school system here is excellent. Maybe even a little too excellent My daughter, age 10, was bringing home over 2 hours worth of homework a night with 2 pages of math problems when she had math homework. 20 words to learn for spelling and geography and scienc. In fact we even bought her a spare set of school books so she'd have them here at home so she wouldn't have to cart 3 books home every night from school. (oh... and yes... public school, the school district here is phenomenal)
The PE situation is different for us here too, they play dodge-ball and soccer and other things in PE. No lack of competitive sports. The school policy is that it builds character to play competitive sporrs, (A policy I agree with).
As to the 'video' games being the problem. It's not the video games. It's parents who don't encourage their kids to go outside because they're so terrified of that 1 in a million chance that their kid might get abducted or killed.
If you're a parent and are reading this and are one of those parents that won't let your 10 year old ride their bike 2 blocks over to play with their friend then YOU are part of the problem. When I was a kid at 10 yrs old I would regularly vanish from my house for the entire day. My friends and I would ride our bikes alll OVER the place and by the time I was 17 I would routinely go over 30 miles away on the bus or train to go hang out with friends. Nothing BAD ever happened to me. And it built my self-confidence and self-worth that my mom and dad trusted me enough to take care of myself for the most part. I never got into drugs (well ok I tried 'em in college and didn't like 'em so never got into them) and I never got into crime and I never got mugged. In short: Raise your kids right and you can trust them anywhere. If you ignore your kids and DONT take the time to raise them then everything that goes wrong in their life is YOUR FAULT because YOU didn't prepare them.
I hate parents today. They sicken me.
I'm raising my kids the way my parents raised me. If they get way outta line they get sent to their room on 'restriction' or they catch a smack on the arse. I don't abuse them but I don't tolerate BS and I DONT reward bad behavior. On the flip side when they behave we have one heck of a lot of fun... TOGETHER. As a result my kids are generally very well behaved. Even the 3 year old.
Errr ok I went on a bit of a rant here.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by Elnator Wow where the hell does your wife teach? Remind me not to move there. Fortunately for my kids the school system here is excellent. Maybe even a little too excellent My daughter, age 10, was bringing home over 2 hours worth of homework a night with 2 pages of math problems when she had math homework. 20 words to learn for spelling and geography and scienc. In fact we even bought her a spare set of school books so she'd have them here at home so she wouldn't have to cart 3 books home every night from school. (oh... and yes... public school, the school district here is phenomenal)
The PE situation is different for us here too, they play dodge-ball and soccer and other things in PE. No lack of competitive sports. The school policy is that it builds character to play competitive sporrs, (A policy I agree with).
As to the 'video' games being the problem. It's not the video games. It's parents who don't encourage their kids to go outside because they're so terrified of that 1 in a million chance that their kid might get abducted or killed.
If you're a parent and are reading this and are one of those parents that won't let your 10 year old ride their bike 2 blocks over to play with their friend then YOU are part of the problem. When I was a kid at 10 yrs old I would regularly vanish from my house for the entire day. My friends and I would ride our bikes alll OVER the place and by the time I was 17 I would routinely go over 30 miles away on the bus or train to go hang out with friends. Nothing BAD ever happened to me. And it built my self-confidence and self-worth that my mom and dad trusted me enough to take care of myself for the most part. I never got into drugs (well ok I tried 'em in college and didn't like 'em so never got into them) and I never got into crime and I never got mugged. In short: Raise your kids right and you can trust them anywhere. If you ignore your kids and DONT take the time to raise them then everything that goes wrong in their life is YOUR FAULT because YOU didn't prepare them.
I hate parents today. They sicken me.
I'm raising my kids the way my parents raised me. If they get way outta line they get sent to their room on 'restriction' or they catch a smack on the arse. I don't abuse them but I don't tolerate BS and I DONT reward bad behavior. On the flip side when they behave we have one heck of a lot of fun... TOGETHER. As a result my kids are generally very well behaved. Even the 3 year old.
Errr ok I went on a bit of a rant here.
She teaches in Virginia I don't know if it has always been like this here (I doubt it), but the system is just horrible compared to the schools I went too when I was young (my only point of reference). As an army brat I went to quite a few of them. Texas was the best I got tons of homework everynight and learned a bunch as a result and it was very well funded. Kentucky was poorly funded but tried really hard with what they had. Missouri was pretty decent. I also went to a slew of DOD schools. They had good programs and good funding some of the ones in Europe though had teachers more interested in Sking than educating so the lessons suffered as a result and I had to play catch up at the next school.
I don't know if the local school district is a reflection of Virginia as a whole either. The districts around us all score much higher on the standardized tests for the No Child Left Behind program. I think a lot of it has to do with the educational culture the superintendant they imported from up North has implimented. Even spoiled kids will work if you have the tools to make them, and currently the elementary schools in this district are denied them because they might hurt someone's feelings. I am glad to hear that this issue is not rotting away the standards of all schools in our country.
Short attention spans and the brat-like demand for instant gratification are certainly disturbing and does not encourage the formation of quality games. However, especially in terms of what we have seen with SWG, I blame the utter lack of business ethics, and our subsequent tolerance of their demise, for what we are seeing throughout society. The pendulum of tolerance for anything that brings in more dollars, regardless of its propriety, has swung too far in favor of coporate greed. I believe in capitalism, but in the long run its best interests can only be served if corporations also demonstrate good citizenship and responsibility.
We tolerate and even encourage behavior such as SOE's with statements such as, "Well, they were just trying to make more money." Money in and of itself is not evil, but the quest for it does should not mean you have a free reign to treat your customers, employess, or any one else with inpunity. In my own humble opinion, I fervently believe that one of the worst ideas to plague our times is that "the ends justify the means." The ends do not justify the means, as the means are what makes us who we are and are what life consists of. Its all about the journey......
Anyway, if your still here, thanks for reading and that is my rant for the day.
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
Originally posted by chlaos Short attention spans and the brat-like demand for instant gratification are certainly disturbing and does not encourage the formation of quality games. However, especially in terms of what we have seen with SWG, I blame the utter lack of business ethics, and our subsequent tolerance of their demise, for what we are seeing throughout society. The pendulum of tolerance for anything that brings in more dollars, regardless of its propriety, has swung too far in favor of coporate greed. I believe in capitalism, but in the long run its best interests can only be served if corporations also demonstrate good citizenship and responsibility. We tolerate and even encourage behavior such as SOE's with statements such as, "Well, they were just trying to make more money." Money in and of itself is not evil, but the quest for it does should not mean you have a free reign to treat your customers, employess, or any one else with inpunity. In my own humble opinion, I fervently believe that one of the worst ideas to plague our times is that "the ends justify the means." The ends do not justify the means, as the means are what makes us who we are and are what life consists of. Its all about the journey...... Anyway, if your still here, thanks for reading and that is my rant for the day.
first off im 29 yrs old and know what everyone is talking about, I agree adults have enough bills to pay for along with this gas crap, and the younger generation doesnt have any to pay for is because we are paying the bills for them, thus speaking "spoiling" them, they should get out and work for a living also. but anyway, there are alot of kids of the younger gen in games that i have ran into that down right screws the games up and then there are a few that know what they are doing which makes the game worth playing. So yes society has the blame in the nation today.
A lot of them do work, but that's not the point.
They really don't have much to spend it on. I mean, they don't have a mortgage, they are not married, they are in good health, and their expenses are low.
I mean, this crap has been going on for generations now, and it just goes to show that we are just getting older, because we are starting to sound like old people.
Back in the 50s, people like us called the kids "beatniks" who were too busy thinking, and not doing.
Back in the 60s, people like us called them "hippies" who just were obseesed with pleasure.
In the 70s, people like us called them "punks" who had no manners.
In the 80s, people like us called them "valley girls" and "yuppies," because they were too concerned with material pleasures, and nothing real.
In the 90s, we were called "slackers," and why? Because there was the perception that we really didn't care about anything important.
So here is to seeing you all in an old folks home in about 50 years or so, talking the same talk that has been going on since civilization started.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Originally posted by Beatnik59 Originally posted by bedolla3401
first off im 29 yrs old and know what everyone is talking about, I agree adults have enough bills to pay for along with this gas crap, and the younger generation doesnt have any to pay for is because we are paying the bills for them, thus speaking "spoiling" them, they should get out and work for a living also. but anyway, there are alot of kids of the younger gen in games that i have ran into that down right screws the games up and then there are a few that know what they are doing which makes the game worth playing. So yes society has the blame in the nation today.
A lot of them do work, but that's not the point.
They really don't have much to spend it on. I mean, they don't have a mortgage, they are not married, they are in good health, and their expenses are low.
I mean, this crap has been going on for generations now, and it just goes to show that we are just getting older, because we are starting to sound like old people.
Back in the 50s, people like us called the kids "beatniks" who were too busy thinking, and not doing.
Back in the 60s, people like us called them "hippies" who just were obseesed with pleasure.
In the 70s, people like us called them "punks" who had no manners.
In the 80s, people like us called them "valley girls" and "yuppies," because they were too concerned with material pleasures, and nothing real.
In the 90s, we were called "slackers," and why? Because there was the perception that we really didn't care about anything important.
So here is to seeing you all in an old folks home in about 50 years or so, talking the same talk that has been going on since civilization started.
LMAO which Rocky will be out in about 50 years LOL, since we are on the subject of old folks homes LOL
Originally posted by Imperatorian "The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers." - Socrates (4 June, c.470 BC - 7 May 399 BC) Greek philosopher
As demonstrated through Imperatorian's quote of Socrates, every generation throughout history feels that the following generations are disrespectful, undisciplined, and weak.
My grandparents thought my parent's generation was weak, my dad feels my generation is weak and I feel that 25 year olds have it easy. It is the nature of human's being self-centered beings. We all feel that if you have not lived our life, your life could not possibly be as difficult. In reality, hardship is nothing more than a subjective measure without any objective data points.
In short, get over yourself and let each generation develop through their own means. Everyone has hardship, regardless of whether it is something you would consider hardship. That same person whose hardship you discount may consider some of your hardship a luxury.
Take a look at footage of the 60s Kids burning Flags and draft cards Getting high Having sex recklessly Disrupting classes for entire schools Spreading dangerous falsehoods like "Violence never solved anything" Disrespecting everything...
THAT is the generation in charge right now. And when they step down, they will break the back of social security
Baby Boomers Its Ironic that the "Greatest Generation" Gave birth to the worst generation this country has ever seen.
SWG: 3 years, 3 game systems, 28 publish systems, 2 chapters, 0 smuggeling
Originally posted by blondeh Originally posted by chlaos Short attention spans and the brat-like demand for instant gratification are certainly disturbing and does not encourage the formation of quality games. However, especially in terms of what we have seen with SWG, I blame the utter lack of business ethics, and our subsequent tolerance of their demise, for what we are seeing throughout society. The pendulum of tolerance for anything that brings in more dollars, regardless of its propriety, has swung too far in favor of coporate greed. I believe in capitalism, but in the long run its best interests can only be served if corporations also demonstrate good citizenship and responsibility. We tolerate and even encourage behavior such as SOE's with statements such as, "Well, they were just trying to make more money." Money in and of itself is not evil, but the quest for it does should not mean you have a free reign to treat your customers, employess, or any one else with inpunity. In my own humble opinion, I fervently believe that one of the worst ideas to plague our times is that "the ends justify the means." The ends do not justify the means, as the means are what makes us who we are and are what life consists of. Its all about the journey...... Anyway, if your still here, thanks for reading and that is my rant for the day.
Well said Agreed, well said.
______________________________ I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process..... SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Originally posted by mongd66 Take a look at footage of the 60s Kids burning Flags and draft cards Getting high Having sex recklessly Disrupting classes for entire schools Spreading dangerous falsehoods like "Violence never solved anything" Disrespecting everything...
THAT is the generation in charge right now. And when they step down, they will break the back of social security
Baby Boomers Its Ironic that the "Greatest Generation" Gave birth to the worst generation this country has ever seen.
Oh man, I shudder to think what the generation to come is going to say about us, when we "run things."
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
The funny thing that has seemed to prove true over time is that each generation looks down upon its successors. I know when I was growing up, I would hear it all the time in regards to what are now simple things like watching TV or listening to my walkman.
Today it's video games and the internet. Tomorrow it might be virtual reality or AI. Just think, barely 50 years ago, people were out chopping wood to use in fireplaces to keep the house warm while today we can just flip a switch. Technology gets the greatest compliments and the worst criticisms from the same group of people.
Unfortunately there is no way to halt technology, and to be honest it should not stop. With all of the laziness it creates, there is still that good part that people tend to take for granted. Without it, we would not be having this discussion on a message board from across many miles.
To blame the troubles of the world on the relative ease of life in today's society is a fallacy simply for the fact that our predecessors could and did say the same about our generation. And the next generation will be saying it about those in the future. Things get easier and people become complacent as a result of it. That's just the way it is.
Originally posted by Rups The funny thing that has seemed to prove true over time is that each generation looks down upon its successors. I know when I was growing up, I would hear it all the time in regards to what are now simple things like watching TV or listening to my walkman. Today it's video games and the internet. Tomorrow it might be virtual reality or AI. Just think, barely 50 years ago, people were out chopping wood to use in fireplaces to keep the house warm while today we can just flip a switch. Technology gets the greatest compliments and the worst criticisms from the same group of people. Unfortunately there is no way to halt technology, and to be honest it should not stop. With all of the laziness it creates, there is still that good part that people tend to take for granted. Without it, we would not be having this discussion on a message board from across many miles. To blame the troubles of the world on the relative ease of life in today's society is a fallacy simply for the fact that our predecessors could and did say the same about our generation. And the next generation will be saying it about those in the future. Things get easier and people become complacent as a result of it. That's just the way it is.
Agree, but its not so much a matter of stopping technology as much as it is a matter of finding a way to integrate the advancements without losing the traits that made the advancements possible.
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
Comments
Shrug, I don't have cold hard facts for you. I just have my observations and as a person who looks at things from a scientific view and not a sociological point of view. It's all that I need to believe that I am right.
Sorry, as someone who does look at things logically (or scientifically, choose your word) I call BS. If you're looking at it logically you would have examples and have at least tried to quantify your statement. Instead you made EXTREMELY Broad generalizations with no data to back up your answers.
To the OP: I think you are over-generalizing just a bit but your theory isn't entirely baseless. Most of the older generation of MMORPG players have some ground in Pen and Paper roleplaying and, thus, tend to look for games that cater to that mind set. The vast majority of the "WoW" fanbase very likely have enver even heard of most Pen and Paper RPG's, let alone played them. I tried WoW in beta and also after release. Most of the discussions I experienced were players talking about what other Video games they had played and compared WoW to that. (Not even RPG's really, just video games in general. Though NUMEROUS players had played the Warcraft games as well as Diablo.... when I think back I compare that to what I heard in UO and EQ .... people comparing game features to UO (in EQ) and people in UO comparing features of the game to Pen & Paper RPG's as well as the original Ultima games. And in Guild Wars it's absolutely stunning the number of players who have never even heard of games like UO, EQ, DAOC, etc.
The majority of gamers today have never played AD&D or Gamma World or even BattleTech (except in video game format) and, so, have very little experience in "creating their own worlds" So... yes... I think you may have a point that we're seeing 'watered down' RPG's because the game market has expanded BEYOND that playerbase. It's encompasing a MUCH broader spectrum of players now than it was even just 4 years ago. The market has grown and, because of that, game companies are trying to embrace larger parts of that market. Which winds up leaving the pioneers... the roleplayers... those of us who loved UO and EQ and M59 kind of out in the cold. Sure some of us can enjoy something like a Guild Wars or WoW.... but most of us pine for the days of UO and "old EQ" For example... while I do play Guild Wars (and even enjoy it to an extent) I still log into a 'classic' UO shard regularly to play and get back to 'the old days' of MMORPG's. Because I miss that special magic of roleplaying in a game.
But it's not really because of parenting or even sociology... it's more just a fact that the true 'roleplaying' market is very small, always has been. Even in the days of EQ it was relatively small compared to the overall playerbase. Heck, even in the 80's, when AD&D was "huge" it was still a very niche market. Most people who played AD&D were considered "geeks" just like most people in the late 80's and early 90's who worked on computers were considered 'geeks'. MMORPG's are growing... and as a result the smaller "Role playing" community is getting left behind. Unfortunately game companies don't want small. They want to maximize their profit. Unfortunately that means that many games will release with features that don't really cater to the roleplayers.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of
exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their
households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They
contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at
the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers." - Socrates (4 June, c.470 BC - 7 May 399 BC) Greek philosopher
Yeah my wife is an elementary school teacher and some of the things she says is quite chilling. They aren't allowed to have competitive sports in P.E. anymore because loosing might hurt someones feelings (as a result PE is down to 20 min a week and the kids are fat). Next they don't like them using textbooks in lessons because they are not very individualized. In addition to that they aren't allowed to use worksheets to reinfore the lesson they just tought, or assign more than the equivalent of 10 math problems for homework each night. Most incredible of all they have banned any form of punishment no detention no go to the corner no nothing just stop what you are doing please. All this stupidiy just reinforces laziness and sends a message that working for anything is bad. Political correctness and the liberals in charge of our education system have wrecked it. Being soft on kids is never the answer that just creates soft adults tough love like so many of us got as children before video games when we use to actually play outside.
The blame doesn't stop there however. Parents have not taken the time to reinforce good values to their children so when they show up to school they are self centered monsters. Since their parents were too lazy to enforce discipline they resorted to bribery to get things done. So guess what you have to do to get the little buggers to work in school? You guessed it you have to bribe the little buggers, and since we have all this standarized testing now that could cost the teacher their jobs if the little buggers flunk you bribe away to keep your job.
So how do you keep these little buggers entertained an immersed in a Star Wars experience?.
Problem is SOE broke every rule in the book (literally I have a business text book with these rules) on how to treat your existing customers to impliment it. Plus they were going for a target audience that was radically different from the customer base they already had. While there is a generational gap with every generation the I want kiddies seem to have vastly differnt values from the other generations that preceeded them. I can understand motivates my Grandfather's generation I can understand my father's generation, but I can't understand what motivates this new generation other than free handouts and blowing sunshine up their butts in the form of weak games with no challenge to reaffirm that they are "uber".
Enter Nancy Macintyre and her NGE. Is it any wonder the Christian Science Monitor called her a Visigoth of our time. Her game reinforces all of these negative behaviors.
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Individuals, not society or parents or anyone else are responsible ultimately for who we are. Period.
How people act in the anonymous online world is very telling about who each individual really is, though they may or may not act the same in the real world at all. Who you are is who you are.
Yes we are all individuals and to an extent we are who we are. But things around us influence our needs and wants. People actions can shape us as people. Like the discipline i received as a child etc. Alot of people here to a certain extent can relate to topic and agree on some points. Why? Because thats how we were brought up. Those things influenced our beleifs. People today may not have the same beleifs today because things around them are different now. Our beliefs influence our actions. Media inlfuences our likes and dislikes in products. Super skinny models are walking catwalks, percieved as being the most beutiful women, which in turn makes women and young girls today want to be skinny aswell.
So I agree that yes we are who we are but the world around us and what we are taught has a huge influence o the people we become.
first off im 29 yrs old and know what everyone is talking about, I agree adults have enough bills to pay for along with this gas crap, and the younger generation doesnt have any to pay for is because we are paying the bills for them, thus speaking "spoiling" them, they should get out and work for a living also. but anyway, there are alot of kids of the younger gen in games that i have ran into that down right screws the games up and then there are a few that know what they are doing which makes the game worth playing. So yes society has the blame in the nation today.
Yeah my wife is an elementary school teacher and some of the things she says is quite chilling. They aren't allowed to have competitive sports in P.E. anymore because loosing might hurt someones feelings (as a result PE is down to 20 min a week and the kids are fat). Next they don't like them using textbooks in lessons because they are not very individualized. In addition to that they aren't allowed to use worksheets to reinfore the lesson they just tought, or assign more than the equivalent of 10 math problems for homework each night. Most incredible of all they have banned any form of punishment no detention no go to the corner no nothing just stop what you are doing please. All this stupidiy just reinforces laziness and sends a message that working for anything is bad. Political correctness and the liberals in charge of our education system have wrecked it. Being soft on kids is never the answer that just creates soft adults tough love like so many of us got as children before video games when we use to actually play outside.
Wow where the hell does your wife teach? Remind me not to move there. Fortunately for my kids the school system here is excellent. Maybe even a little too excellent
The PE situation is different for us here too, they play dodge-ball and soccer and other things in PE. No lack of competitive sports. The school policy is that it builds character to play competitive sporrs, (A policy I agree with).
As to the 'video' games being the problem. It's not the video games. It's parents who don't encourage their kids to go outside because they're so terrified of that 1 in a million chance that their kid might get abducted or killed.
If you're a parent and are reading this and are one of those parents that won't let your 10 year old ride their bike 2 blocks over to play with their friend then YOU are part of the problem. When I was a kid at 10 yrs old I would regularly vanish from my house for the entire day. My friends and I would ride our bikes alll OVER the place and by the time I was 17 I would routinely go over 30 miles away on the bus or train to go hang out with friends. Nothing BAD ever happened to me. And it built my self-confidence and self-worth that my mom and dad trusted me enough to take care of myself for the most part. I never got into drugs (well ok I tried 'em in college and didn't like 'em so never got into them) and I never got into crime and I never got mugged. In short: Raise your kids right and you can trust them anywhere. If you ignore your kids and DONT take the time to raise them then everything that goes wrong in their life is YOUR FAULT because YOU didn't prepare them.
I hate parents today. They sicken me.
I'm raising my kids the way my parents raised me. If they get way outta line they get sent to their room on 'restriction' or they catch a smack on the arse. I don't abuse them but I don't tolerate BS and I DONT reward bad behavior. On the flip side when they behave we have one heck of a lot of fun... TOGETHER. As a result my kids are generally very well behaved. Even the 3 year old.
Errr ok I went on a bit of a rant here.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
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She teaches in Virginia I don't know if it has always been like this here (I doubt it), but the system is just horrible compared to the schools I went too when I was young (my only point of reference). As an army brat I went to quite a few of them. Texas was the best I got tons of homework everynight and learned a bunch as a result and it was very well funded. Kentucky was poorly funded but tried really hard with what they had. Missouri was pretty decent. I also went to a slew of DOD schools. They had good programs and good funding some of the ones in Europe though had teachers more interested in Sking than educating so the lessons suffered as a result and I had to play catch up at the next school.
I don't know if the local school district is a reflection of Virginia as a whole either. The districts around us all score much higher on the standardized tests for the No Child Left Behind program. I think a lot of it has to do with the educational culture the superintendant they imported from up North has implimented. Even spoiled kids will work if you have the tools to make them, and currently the elementary schools in this district are denied them because they might hurt someone's feelings. I am glad to hear that this issue is not rotting away the standards of all schools in our country.
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Short attention spans and the brat-like demand for instant gratification are certainly disturbing and does not encourage the formation of quality games. However, especially in terms of what we have seen with SWG, I blame the utter lack of business ethics, and our subsequent tolerance of their demise, for what we are seeing throughout society. The pendulum of tolerance for anything that brings in more dollars, regardless of its propriety, has swung too far in favor of coporate greed. I believe in capitalism, but in the long run its best interests can only be served if corporations also demonstrate good citizenship and responsibility.
We tolerate and even encourage behavior such as SOE's with statements such as, "Well, they were just trying to make more money." Money in and of itself is not evil, but the quest for it does should not mean you have a free reign to treat your customers, employess, or any one else with inpunity. In my own humble opinion, I fervently believe that one of the worst ideas to plague our times is that "the ends justify the means." The ends do not justify the means, as the means are what makes us who we are and are what life consists of. Its all about the journey......
Anyway, if your still here, thanks for reading and that is my rant for the day.
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
A lot of them do work, but that's not the point.
They really don't have much to spend it on. I mean, they don't have a mortgage, they are not married, they are in good health, and their expenses are low.
I mean, this crap has been going on for generations now, and it just goes to show that we are just getting older, because we are starting to sound like old people.
Back in the 50s, people like us called the kids "beatniks" who were too busy thinking, and not doing.
Back in the 60s, people like us called them "hippies" who just were obseesed with pleasure.
In the 70s, people like us called them "punks" who had no manners.
In the 80s, people like us called them "valley girls" and "yuppies," because they were too concerned with material pleasures, and nothing real.
In the 90s, we were called "slackers," and why? Because there was the perception that we really didn't care about anything important.
So here is to seeing you all in an old folks home in about 50 years or so, talking the same talk that has been going on since civilization started.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
A lot of them do work, but that's not the point.
They really don't have much to spend it on. I mean, they don't have a mortgage, they are not married, they are in good health, and their expenses are low.
I mean, this crap has been going on for generations now, and it just goes to show that we are just getting older, because we are starting to sound like old people.
Back in the 50s, people like us called the kids "beatniks" who were too busy thinking, and not doing.
Back in the 60s, people like us called them "hippies" who just were obseesed with pleasure.
In the 70s, people like us called them "punks" who had no manners.
In the 80s, people like us called them "valley girls" and "yuppies," because they were too concerned with material pleasures, and nothing real.
In the 90s, we were called "slackers," and why? Because there was the perception that we really didn't care about anything important.
So here is to seeing you all in an old folks home in about 50 years or so, talking the same talk that has been going on since civilization started.
LMAO which Rocky will be out in about 50 years LOL, since we are on the subject of old folks homes LOL
As demonstrated through Imperatorian's quote of Socrates, every generation throughout history feels that the following generations are disrespectful, undisciplined, and weak.
My grandparents thought my parent's generation was weak, my dad feels my generation is weak and I feel that 25 year olds have it easy. It is the nature of human's being self-centered beings. We all feel that if you have not lived our life, your life could not possibly be as difficult. In reality, hardship is nothing more than a subjective measure without any objective data points.
In short, get over yourself and let each generation develop through their own means. Everyone has hardship, regardless of whether it is something you would consider hardship. That same person whose hardship you discount may consider some of your hardship a luxury.
Kids burning Flags and draft cards
Getting high
Having sex recklessly
Disrupting classes for entire schools
Spreading dangerous falsehoods like "Violence never solved anything"
Disrespecting everything...
THAT is the generation in charge right now.
And when they step down, they will break the back of social security
Baby Boomers
Its Ironic that the "Greatest Generation" Gave birth to the worst generation this country has ever seen.
SWG: 3 years, 3 game systems, 28 publish systems, 2 chapters, 0 smuggeling
Agreed, well said.
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
The funny thing that has seemed to prove true over time is that each generation looks down upon its successors. I know when I was growing up, I would hear it all the time in regards to what are now simple things like watching TV or listening to my walkman.
Today it's video games and the internet. Tomorrow it might be virtual reality or AI. Just think, barely 50 years ago, people were out chopping wood to use in fireplaces to keep the house warm while today we can just flip a switch. Technology gets the greatest compliments and the worst criticisms from the same group of people.
Unfortunately there is no way to halt technology, and to be honest it should not stop. With all of the laziness it creates, there is still that good part that people tend to take for granted. Without it, we would not be having this discussion on a message board from across many miles.
To blame the troubles of the world on the relative ease of life in today's society is a fallacy simply for the fact that our predecessors could and did say the same about our generation. And the next generation will be saying it about those in the future. Things get easier and people become complacent as a result of it. That's just the way it is.
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin