Originally posted by Xenduli Err how is that different?
if you go into a raid instance. the bosses and mobs will do the same things over and again, hence, people can post a strategy about how to beat a raid, and everyone and their mother can follow said strategy and win.
now, in order to progress to the next raid dungeon, all of your raiding team MUST get all the gear available to their class from this first raid dungeon. it's a nasty little cycle of stupidity.
an fps, you jump into a game with whomever, maybe you play with a clan, maybe you just get pick up games with whomever is on the server atm. you're playing against other players. your sneaky grenade tactics might work great against this first team, and get your butt handed to you constantly against the next team. in a raid dungeon, the mobs and bosses will do the same stuff EVERY time you go there out of the 200 times you DO go there...
can you not see the difference? really?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by damian7 Originally posted by Xenduli Err how is that different?
if you go into a raid instance. the bosses and mobs will do the same things over and again, hence, people can post a strategy about how to beat a raid, and everyone and their mother can follow said strategy and win.
now, in order to progress to the next raid dungeon, all of your raiding team MUST get all the gear available to their class from this first raid dungeon. it's a nasty little cycle of stupidity.
an fps, you jump into a game with whomever, maybe you play with a clan, maybe you just get pick up games with whomever is on the server atm. you're playing against other players. your sneaky grenade tactics might work great against this first team, and get your butt handed to you constantly against the next team. in a raid dungeon, the mobs and bosses will do the same stuff EVERY time you go there out of the 200 times you DO go there...
can you not see the difference? really?
The problem might be that he sees a difference, but denies it. Kinda like a fanboy.
Originally posted by sushimees Originally posted by damian7 Originally posted by Xenduli Err how is that different? if you go into a raid instance. the bosses and mobs will do the same things over and again, hence, people can post a strategy about how to beat a raid, and everyone and their mother can follow said strategy and win.now, in order to progress to the next raid dungeon, all of your raiding team MUST get all the gear available to their class from this first raid dungeon. it's a nasty little cycle of stupidity.an fps, you jump into a game with whomever, maybe you play with a clan, maybe you just get pick up games with whomever is on the server atm. you're playing against other players. your sneaky grenade tactics might work great against this first team, and get your butt handed to you constantly against the next team. in a raid dungeon, the mobs and bosses will do the same stuff EVERY time you go there out of the 200 times you DO go there...can you not see the difference? really? The problem might be that he sees a difference, but denies it. Kinda like a fanboy.
That's not a grind and that's my point in making this thread. If you want to make a good argument at what a grind is then make some comparisons like I did at the beginning of this thread. I pointed out serious grind problems with games like the original everquest and the early development of City of Heroes. A lot of you simply state your opinion of a situation and you talk about how WOW works, which we all know. In that way I have brought to light that a lot of you have little or no experience with mmo's and the true meaning of a grind. Oh and you can't compare WOW with WOW.
The comparisons between an hd tv and a refrigerator is not at all the same as comparing battlegrounds to a shooter. Battlegrounds is the same thing as a shooter with WOW characters and WOW pvp. Warsong Gulch is practically equivalent to one of the maps in Quake 3. Blizzard has pvp awards because it's nice. It wasn't meant to be abused like it has been. So I guess you can keeping calling that a grind if you'd like. It's a matter of perspective. Your prize is the highest pvp armor, while some of us are focusing on the fun and joy of jumping into a match of capture the flag.
Originally posted by rmeyer That's not a grind and that's my point in making this thread. If you want to make a good argument at what a grind is then make some comparisons like I did at the beginning of this thread. I pointed out serious grind problems with games like the original everquest and the early development of City of Heroes. A lot of you simply state your opinion of a situation and you talk about how WOW works, which we all know. In that way I have brought to light that a lot of you have little or no experience with mmo's and the true meaning of a grind. Oh and you can't compare WOW with WOW.The comparisons between an hd tv and a refrigerator is not at all the same as comparing battlegrounds to a shooter. Battlegrounds is the same thing as a shooter with WOW characters and WOW pvp. Warsong Gulch is practically equivalent to one of the maps in Quake 3. Blizzard has pvp awards because it's nice. It wasn't meant to be abused like it has been. So I guess you can keeping calling that a grind if you'd like. It's a matter of perspective. Your prize is the highest pvp armor, while some of us are focusing on the fun and joy of jumping into a match of capture the flag.
i already explained to you why you are wrong but you either didn't not read it or missed it due to the length of this thread. either way i will quote my post's for you here.
i didn't read this entire thread but seriously....if you actually think wow isn't a grind then you have not been playing it long enough.
go grind bg after bg for 10+ hours per day every day just so you can get to "high warlord" status and then tell me its not a grind.
or go raid for 6 hours a day to get your uber leet tier 3 gear and tell me its not a grind. yeah its defiantly not a grind between lvl's 1-59 but after that it turns into a huge grind.
oh and i am not hating on wow, i play the game ATM and know fully well about the grind that is wow. but don't sit up here and tell me its not a grind, because if you actually think that...then you are either not max level yet or you are fooling yourself.
sorry but i couldn't disagree more, with this logic you are saying no mmog is a grind as long as they are max level? if you are doing the same thing over and over and over and over again..weather it be a bg instance, a raid instance or just gold farming...that is a grind.
if playing the same bg's 100's of times over and over again isn't grinding then i don't know what is. oh and the difference between a FPS game and doing a round of BG's in wow is...in wow you have a choice of only 3 maps, so you are doing the same damn instance over and over again.
not only that but once you get max reputation then it because pointless to do that bg other than to just grind honor. you can spin it anyway you want but it wont change the fact that wow is a huge grind fest at endgame.
maybe if they had 100's of different bg's you could do with all sorts of different types of games it would be alot better (like an FPS) but its not, its the same damn bg instance over and over again.
now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying grinding = bad but i am saying wow bg's = suck because of the mindless grinding of the same instances over and over for at least 10+ hours per day if you want to get to the highest rank.
again....if that is not a grind, then i have no clue what is.
the only reason your FPS/bg argument is wrong is simply because wow bg's have only 3 maps and FPS games (depending on the game) has 100's of maps and different mods to change the game entirely.
if you want to argue that fps's are grinds that is fine by me, even though i disagree.... it does get repetitive at times. but again you have a hell of alot more options in any fps than you do in a wow battleground, there is no arguing that point...
blizzard designed the honor system to be a grind fest, they force you to pvp for ungodly amounts of hours if you want to get to the highest pvp rank.
and the only way to do it at this point is grinding bg's all day and night. some people don't mind it others hate it, but i honestly don't see how you could possibly believe it is not a grind.
Originally posted by rmeyer Blizzard has pvp awards because it's nice. It wasn't meant to be abused like it has been. So I guess you can keeping calling that a grind if you'd like. It's a matter of perspective. Your prize is the highest pvp armor, while some of us are focusing on the fun and joy of jumping into a match of capture the flag.
so since you love wow, nothing in it is a grind, ever. cheers, can't argue with that logic. i mean, 50+ million asian subs can't be wrong, can they?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Actually, WoW, in almost all of its activities, can be considered a grind.
The word “grind”, as we know it in MMOs, came from the informal use of the word which is synonymous with the word “drudgery”.
Drudgery: Work that is unpleasant, tedious, or menial (Webster’s Dictionary).
So, a grind is essentially the same thing. It is some routine, monotonous, hard work that one does not enjoy.
In an MMORPG, this is often concerning level, thus giving us the “level grind”. That does not mean there are not other forms of grind though. There is such a thing as “gear grind” and general “loot grind”.
Unfortunately, in WoW, most things, I would say, can be considered a grind. Level is certainly a grind. In fact, the quests to gain that level are grinds. Kill-X-mobs-to-gather-X-material is a grind in nature. It is almost a grind within a grind, because as one is grinding the variety of similar quests, the individual is also grinding for each individual quest. PvP is a grind with the infamous HK system. Clearly, with how gear-centric this game is, gaining the gear, and the way one gains it, is a grind. Farming mobs for “phat loot” is a grind too. That though, is generally termed as just farming hehe.
I can see why one might say a grind only refers to level, but the word is not specialized. Again, it is repetitive, boring labor - not repetitive, boring level.
Well... the "PvP Honor Grind" to Highwarlord is worse than any grind i have seen in any other game, and i actually did play 5 years of Everquest.
So yeah there is grind in WoW. and you can definitely say that at the endgame WoW becomes Grind Centric: All the rep grinds, furbolgs, argent dawn etc. are pretty harsh too risk/reward wise, even when compared to an old dinosaur like EQ.
Originally posted by JohnM81 Originally posted by LordSlater
If my understanding is correct Grind = killing mobs doing repetative tasks to 'Level up'.......
No that definition isn't correct. It is killing mobs in a repetative way to achieve a goal. Its not just for leveling. WoW allows people to level quickly. But the getting of gear in MC, BWL, AQ20, AQ40 ect... is the grind.
I have to agree, playing through WoW with your first and even your second character in either faction doesn't really feel like a grind, but once you hit lvl 60 and the "end game" content, then the real grind starts.
Anybody that can say that running MC/BWL/AQ20/AQ40 week in and week out, month after month, for hours on end just to keep up on DKP and hoping that something useful for your class drops and that you're next in line to get it isn't a grind must have been playing a different game than the one I played.
I played WoW since beta, and had a blast while it lasted, I wont deny that, but the endless high level dungeon 3-4 hour raids 5-6 days every week, and then having to farm for mats and gold to stock up on pots, tubers and the like for the next raid session just killed the game for me.
But it's like people have said, most MMORPGs tend to be grind fests, WoW just keeps the real grinding for when you hit lvl 60.
Originally posted by rmeyer Originally posted by damian7
how can you say wow doesn't have a grind?
If you seriously think Wow is a grind, then you have never played another mmo before and clearly have no broad experience playing them. In Wow you can reach level 60 in two weeks if you play casually. If you only fight baddies, then you are experiencing difficulty in leveling because you aren't playing the game right, where you are expected to pick up quests that you can complete, to gain more levels quicker. There is also resting, which encourages the player to stop in an inn or city before they log out.
I remember playing everquest for 6 months and being excited that I had reached level 34 finally. There were things called power levels where they would be almost equivalent to 5 levels of experience.
When city of heroes first came out not only was there almost no content, fighting the same damn instance over and over again, with a slight minimal difference(which they really haven't changed all that much even to this day), there was also the most frustrating grind that made you miserable. Most players played the game for a month and then never played again after creating ten different super hero costumes.
Wow has a story that comes to life and offers tons of different paths to move toward. By the time you get to level 60, you could have experienced an entirely different view of the game than most others. A lot of us were shocked at how fast we got to level 60, thinking that Blizzard would add a grind, so that they could keep players from having accomplished everything the game had to offer. Surprizingly they didn't.
Why ressurect this thread to whomever may have been foolish enough to ressurect it. In fact, I can't even remember if I've already posted here saying this but here goes:
Everything is a grind. Its the type of the grind that differs from game to game.
The amount of "fun" generated is not diectly proportional to the amount of time invested into the process. ==================================================================
WOW is the definition of grind in MMOs. The worst of it is that its not even a social grind. It is almost entirely done solo in so much that you may as well have bought a single player game like oblivion. As a matter of fact I found oblivion to be more entertaining and rewarding than WOW and it requires no monthly fee.
The only MMO that was able to at least minimize the grind was SWG in its early days. A character could be useful to a group even if their skills were not as high as other members. As far as original EQ was a grind it at least required you to be social and rewarded you for group play.
WOW is nothing more than a single player game with a raid and PVP minigame attached to it.
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
Yea, WoW is a fluffy grind. It's a bit like leveling to 20 in Lineage 2 and then the Lineage 2 grind got exponentially worse every level. I was working full time while playing L2 so I could *only* play about 4-7 hours a day, which caused my levels at 52+ to take 3-6 weeks...
If I ever so much as SNIFF another grind like that I will instantly quit the game and save myself the time. Since then I have played on some gray servers that had 10X and really enjoyed myself.
Could you possibly fit any more broad-sweeping wild generalisations into a single post?
"If you seriously think Wow is a grind, then you have never played another mmo before and clearly have no broad experience playing them."
I seriously think it's a grind AND I've played other mmos...
"Most players played the game for a month and then never played again after creating ten different super hero costumes."
Oh you conducted a survey of CoH players when they cancelled their subscriptions?
"A lot of us were shocked at how fast we got to level 60, thinking that Blizzard would add a grind, so that they could keep players from having accomplished everything the game had to offer. Surprizingly they didn't."
Sorry, this is WoW? That game where you hit 60 then have nothing to do but raid the same 1 or 2 instances repeatedly for months on end to get gear?
The OP was correct as far as he went...the Leveling phase of WoW is not a grind...the 'grind to 60' in WoW is basicly noexistant compared to other games.
I quit playing it, because, well, it sucks maggoty goat turds...but I hear the grind in PvP and for gear is as bad as any other game out there...and this thread seems to support that.
Originally posted by rmeyer Originally posted by damian7
how can you say wow doesn't have a grind?
If you seriously think Wow is a grind, then you have never played another mmo before and clearly have no broad experience playing them. In Wow you can reach level 60 in two weeks if you play casually. If you only fight baddies, then you are experiencing difficulty in leveling because you aren't playing the game right, where you are expected to pick up quests that you can complete, to gain more levels quicker. There is also resting, which encourages the player to stop in an inn or city before they log out.
I remember playing everquest for 6 months and being excited that I had reached level 34 finally. There were things called power levels where they would be almost equivalent to 5 levels of experience.
When city of heroes first came out not only was there almost no content, fighting the same damn instance over and over again, with a slight minimal difference(which they really haven't changed all that much even to this day), there was also the most frustrating grind that made you miserable. Most players played the game for a month and then never played again after creating ten different super hero costumes.
Wow has a story that comes to life and offers tons of different paths to move toward. By the time you get to level 60, you could have experienced an entirely different view of the game than most others. A lot of us were shocked at how fast we got to level 60, thinking that Blizzard would add a grind, so that they could keep players from having accomplished everything the game had to offer. Surprizingly they didn't.
How can you say its not a grind. And for one thing my first 2 weeks i was playing a little more than casual and i got to level 15. And how on earth do you play the game RIGHT??? its an MMO theres no such thing as the RIGHT way its called YOUR way. You play how you want. you have a huge misconception of the game there bud.
Parts of it are a hiedously bad grind, but I can't think of a game without some sort of grind. I love my earthstirke, but the grind for it sucked hardcore. 'Course the grind for warlock gear was as bad if not worse in FFXI and almost every other well done game has let me down in some part with a grind.
I wish the grind was more fun, but putting in time and effort for amazing gear is what make an MMO a MMO in an way. Why play more if people who play less get the same items? Why keep paying a fee if you can blow through content?
Anytime you want a specific item WoW becomes a rather bad grind. Either through reputation or boss farming for random drops.
Both activites are pretty important as they can vastly improve your character. Both activities are repettiive, unchanging and unchallenging once you have the method down.
Therefore a good potion of WoW is a grind. Anyone who has done multiple Princess runs to get a Blackstone ring or tried to complete a set of some sort or various other things like Timbermaw rep for recipes knows this.
Comments
now, in order to progress to the next raid dungeon, all of your raiding team MUST get all the gear available to their class from this first raid dungeon. it's a nasty little cycle of stupidity.
an fps, you jump into a game with whomever, maybe you play with a clan, maybe you just get pick up games with whomever is on the server atm. you're playing against other players. your sneaky grenade tactics might work great against this first team, and get your butt handed to you constantly against the next team. in a raid dungeon, the mobs and bosses will do the same stuff EVERY time you go there out of the 200 times you DO go there...
can you not see the difference? really?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
now, in order to progress to the next raid dungeon, all of your raiding team MUST get all the gear available to their class from this first raid dungeon. it's a nasty little cycle of stupidity.
an fps, you jump into a game with whomever, maybe you play with a clan, maybe you just get pick up games with whomever is on the server atm. you're playing against other players. your sneaky grenade tactics might work great against this first team, and get your butt handed to you constantly against the next team. in a raid dungeon, the mobs and bosses will do the same stuff EVERY time you go there out of the 200 times you DO go there...
can you not see the difference? really?
The problem might be that he sees a difference, but denies it. Kinda like a fanboy.
No the problem is you said FPS, NOT mmofps.
No annoying animated GIF here!
The comparisons between an hd tv and a refrigerator is not at all the same as comparing battlegrounds to a shooter. Battlegrounds is the same thing as a shooter with WOW characters and WOW pvp. Warsong Gulch is practically equivalent to one of the maps in Quake 3. Blizzard has pvp awards because it's nice. It wasn't meant to be abused like it has been. So I guess you can keeping calling that a grind if you'd like. It's a matter of perspective. Your prize is the highest pvp armor, while some of us are focusing on the fun and joy of jumping into a match of capture the flag.
i already explained to you why you are wrong but you either didn't not read it or missed it due to the length of this thread. either way i will quote my post's for you here.
the only reason your FPS/bg argument is wrong is simply because wow bg's have only 3 maps and FPS games (depending on the game) has 100's of maps and different mods to change the game entirely.
if you want to argue that fps's are grinds that is fine by me, even though i disagree.... it does get repetitive at times. but again you have a hell of alot more options in any fps than you do in a wow battleground, there is no arguing that point...
blizzard designed the honor system to be a grind fest, they force you to pvp for ungodly amounts of hours if you want to get to the highest pvp rank.
and the only way to do it at this point is grinding bg's all day and night. some people don't mind it others hate it, but i honestly don't see how you could possibly believe it is not a grind.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Actually, WoW, in almost all of its activities, can be considered a grind.
The word “grind”, as we know it in MMOs, came from the informal use of the word which is synonymous with the word “drudgery”.
Drudgery: Work that is unpleasant, tedious, or menial (Webster’s Dictionary).
So, a grind is essentially the same thing. It is some routine, monotonous, hard work that one does not enjoy.
In an MMORPG, this is often concerning level, thus giving us the “level grind”. That does not mean there are not other forms of grind though. There is such a thing as “gear grind” and general “loot grind”.
Unfortunately, in WoW, most things, I would say, can be considered a grind. Level is certainly a grind. In fact, the quests to gain that level are grinds. Kill-X-mobs-to-gather-X-material is a grind in nature. It is almost a grind within a grind, because as one is grinding the variety of similar quests, the individual is also grinding for each individual quest. PvP is a grind with the infamous HK system. Clearly, with how gear-centric this game is, gaining the gear, and the way one gains it, is a grind. Farming mobs for “phat loot” is a grind too. That though, is generally termed as just farming hehe.
I can see why one might say a grind only refers to level, but the word is not specialized. Again, it is repetitive, boring labor - not repetitive, boring level.
Well... the "PvP Honor Grind" to Highwarlord is worse than any grind i have seen in any other game, and i actually did play 5 years of Everquest.
So yeah there is grind in WoW. and you can definitely say that at the endgame WoW becomes Grind Centric: All the rep grinds, furbolgs, argent dawn etc. are pretty harsh too risk/reward wise, even when compared to an old dinosaur like EQ.
I have to agree, playing through WoW with your first and even your second character in either faction doesn't really feel like a grind, but once you hit lvl 60 and the "end game" content, then the real grind starts.
Anybody that can say that running MC/BWL/AQ20/AQ40 week in and week out, month after month, for hours on end just to keep up on DKP and hoping that something useful for your class drops and that you're next in line to get it isn't a grind must have been playing a different game than the one I played.
I played WoW since beta, and had a blast while it lasted, I wont deny that, but the endless high level dungeon 3-4 hour raids 5-6 days every week, and then having to farm for mats and gold to stock up on pots, tubers and the like for the next raid session just killed the game for me.
But it's like people have said, most MMORPGs tend to be grind fests, WoW just keeps the real grinding for when you hit lvl 60.
Everything is a grind. Its the type of the grind that differs from game to game.
The amount of "fun" generated is not diectly proportional to the amount of time invested into the process.
==================================================================
Hah!!
WOW is the definition of grind in MMOs. The worst of it is that its not even a social grind. It is almost entirely done solo in so much that you may as well have bought a single player game like oblivion. As a matter of fact I found oblivion to be more entertaining and rewarding than WOW and it requires no monthly fee.
The only MMO that was able to at least minimize the grind was SWG in its early days. A character could be useful to a group even if their skills were not as high as other members. As far as original EQ was a grind it at least required you to be social and rewarded you for group play.
WOW is nothing more than a single player game with a raid and PVP minigame attached to it.
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
Yea, WoW is a fluffy grind. It's a bit like leveling to 20 in Lineage 2 and then the Lineage 2 grind got exponentially worse every level. I was working full time while playing L2 so I could *only* play about 4-7 hours a day, which caused my levels at 52+ to take 3-6 weeks...
If I ever so much as SNIFF another grind like that I will instantly quit the game and save myself the time. Since then I have played on some gray servers that had 10X and really enjoyed myself.
Could you possibly fit any more broad-sweeping wild generalisations into a single post?
"If you seriously think Wow is a grind, then you have never played another mmo before and clearly have no broad experience playing them."
I seriously think it's a grind AND I've played other mmos...
"Most players played the game for a month and then never played again after creating ten different super hero costumes."
Oh you conducted a survey of CoH players when they cancelled their subscriptions?
"A lot of us were shocked at how fast we got to level 60, thinking that Blizzard would add a grind, so that they could keep players from having accomplished everything the game had to offer. Surprizingly they didn't."
Sorry, this is WoW? That game where you hit 60 then have nothing to do but raid the same 1 or 2 instances repeatedly for months on end to get gear?
The OP was correct as far as he went...the Leveling phase of WoW is not a grind...the 'grind to 60' in WoW is basicly noexistant compared to other games.
I quit playing it, because, well, it sucks maggoty goat turds...but I hear the grind in PvP and for gear is as bad as any other game out there...and this thread seems to support that.
Parts of it are a hiedously bad grind, but I can't think of a game without some sort of grind. I love my earthstirke, but the grind for it sucked hardcore. 'Course the grind for warlock gear was as bad if not worse in FFXI and almost every other well done game has let me down in some part with a grind.
I wish the grind was more fun, but putting in time and effort for amazing gear is what make an MMO a MMO in an way. Why play more if people who play less get the same items? Why keep paying a fee if you can blow through content?
Starwars Galaxies, An Empier Diveded, That's what it says on my box anyway.
Both activites are pretty important as they can vastly improve your character. Both activities are repettiive, unchanging and unchallenging once you have the method down.
Therefore a good potion of WoW is a grind. Anyone who has done multiple Princess runs to get a Blackstone ring or tried to complete a set of some sort or various other things like Timbermaw rep for recipes knows this.
End of story.
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