Originally posted by xpowderx Originally posted by ssstupido Originally posted by fizzle322 Rod :
Ask yourself an intellectually honest question.
Is BoB good for Eve?
I feel that it has a Walmart or Home Depot affect on the game, all the good talent gets sucked out of small corps, goes into BoB, whats left outside is mush, which creates a game of haves and have-nots.
You said it yourself, you can lose 100 BS a day and not even feel it, how many corps/alliances can honestly say that?
In a way you're right, BoB has accomplished alot, you've worked yourselves up to the top of the food chain.
But now the game is becoming stagnant and I feel that the days of 5-way rumbles between motivated individuals is over.
just like the US. any genius that is not on top 5 country goes to US, who messes on any conflict (whether they are invited or not) they want to, just because they can loose 100 tanks a day and not even feel it
is the USA good for the world?
pd: that is a nice analogy too. USA= the Wallmart of the world
Have some cheese with your /whine! Stay on topic!
it is on topic. asking whether BoB is good or not for EVE is like asking if the USA are good for the world. maybe they are not good. neither of them. but they are necesary
You know Rod, I was thinking today about this whole situation and it just occurred to me that we may actually have another first for EVE, Tranquility, and BoB.
I know you won't like what I have to say. I can't help if you take it personally, because you probably will. That's not my intent though so much as to look at this situation in terms of politics in the real world as a reflection of EVE, and how the two are similar.
In your perception this war is the same as all the other ones. Somehow though, I feel this one is different from any other conflict I have seen in EVE, or in any MMO for that matter. Evidence for this comes in the form of toning down your rhetoric considerably to placate we who are making the accusations we do. I think you of all people are starting to realize that this is not pretty, and are trying to do your best to save face.
Words are one thing, but actions are another. I usually don't read the killboards, but I have been lately, and I see the red blobs when I log in and change the panel to "ships destroyed in the last 24 hours." Yet they still fly, and they still get destroyed.
I don't read your synopsis as a statement of fact, Rod. I see it as a statement of hope. You hope that the Goons will abandon being Goons. You hope that the Goons will disband. You hope that the Goons will start adopting behavior you feel is appropriate. The reason for this is that the alternative is a path that you really do not want to go down, and what EVE doesn't want to go down.
In EVE, they allow the players to basically be as nasty as they want to be within the rules. Many see this as one of its strengths. It also gives someone no place to run to if they are enjoying EVE, but not especially enjoying the constraints people put them under. There is no server to run to if Tranquility is out to get you. The player must simply endure the constraints, or leave.
We would have a lot less conflict in the world of reality if we could simply choose a "different shard." We could shard the Holy Land into the Israel Shard, and the Palestine Shard, and both parties would be happy. If we could separate the United States into the Free Shard, and the Slave Shard, we wouldn't have had a Civil War.
I would have to imagine that is why Tranquility is so heavily contested, and why war is all around us. Just like in reality, there can only be one resolution, and someone is going to go away disatisfied.
Many persecutions happen because of behavior that one party or another finds unacceptable. I'm sure that the conflicts between the Sunni and Shi'a happen not because they do not like who they are, but they do not adopt the behavior they find acceptable. Yet they kill eachother regardless, and there is no Sunni or Shi'a shard they may run to.
I'm sure that in many cases, ideology dictates that infidels need to be eliminated for the good of God, or mankind. I'm sure also that in many cases, like in Spain after the Muslim rule, the issue was simply a matter of the offending parties adopting the Lord's Prayer, the Nicene Creed, and the Church. Given time, I am sure nobody would have a problem with the new converts, but of course they would have to abandon their principles. Unfortunately though as with most matters like this, it is not so simple. The beliefs are so strongly held, it often requires extreme measures to enforce the will upon the other.
Enter the "ugly side" of war. The kind we don't often get in video games, but we see repeatedly in the real world around us. Now I'm not going to go into details for fear of breaking Godwin's Law, but its what happens when one side wants to stamp out something they see as evil or unwelcome. Its something that has very little to do with realpolitik, because the slaughter continues for reasons wholly unrelated to power and interest. They do not do it to abolish a power. They do it to abolish a way of life.
I don't want to say that what is happening in S-U8A4, Jita, Kisogo, and elsewhere is a genocide. But I must say that if there were an online equivalent to it, its what is happening to the Goons in EVE. There is nowhere they may run to if they want to be Goons in EVE when the very existance of the Goons is to be erradicated.
Given the nature of EVE, and the evidence I see, I think we may be witnessing the first player-generated virtual pogrom in an MMO, and I have to hand it to EVE, the Goons, and BoB for creating, without ever realizing it, as accurate a portrayal of the "ugly side" of war as we may ever see. I'm not condeming BoB. Quite honestly I don't even think they ever thought of it like that. At least I hope not.
You see Rod, BoB has given 2900 players no choice but to play as non-Goons, or to cancel as Goons. But as the kill rolls mount up, and we see what is being flown, history will see exactly what the purpose was here.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Open pvp does not increase bad behavior, it decreases it.
The whole point of open pvp is, if you open your mouth, someone can close it.
War < > Bad Behavior
Piracy < > Bad Behavior
Scamming < > Bad Behavior
Crime < > Bad Behavior
War Piracy Scamming and Crime are aspects of the game, they are WITHIN the mechanics of the game and part of its SCOPE.
While they are negative actions, they are not "bad behavior" by players, players are playing the game as it is MEANT to be played.
Talking nasty in local, making fun of RL dead people, saying stuff about your mama, saying hateful racial or ethnic slurs, THATS what is considered "bad behavior", blowing someone up is not bad behavior, its in-game behavior.
Of course carebears dont like it, but without destructive in-game aspects, Eve would not be Eve.
Eve = Conflict
Political/Economic/Industrial/Military
If you're not logging in to wage war, then what you logging in for? Just socialize? You can do that docked and nobody can touch you.
Just to mine? Leave corp and go mine, nobody can touch you.
As long as you login day after day with a tag, the enemies of that tag can take you down, this is a PVP GAME.
I don't really get why people get upset over something that was said about someone has died? If the comment was true does it really matter? I have absolutely no idea what was said whether it was true or not, which I doubt matters much as these things are usually very subjective.
Do you see anyone say "Oh yeah that Hitler guy was quite a nice chap really" Just because he is dead?
I agree that this war isn't over this little thing though it is just an excuse to have a bit of bloodshed. Remember though this is a game people play for fun, some people have definitely forgotten about that aspect from the looks of it
Originally posted by Beatnik59 You know Rod, I was thinking today about this whole situation and it just occurred to me that we may actually have another first for EVE, Tranquility, and BoB. <snip> You see Rod, BoB has given 2900 players no choice but to play as non-Goons, or to cancel as Goons. But as the kill rolls mount up, and we see what is being flown, history will see exactly what the purpose was here.
Well, there's only one purpose, and yes, it's theoretically ambivalent since it involves morality in a setting thats entirely fictional and thus by default a place where morality has limited place.
That's another way of saying that yes, there is some friction between the notion that this is just a game and the notion that one is keeping up real standards by the use of force. There's no way not to be somewhat ambivalent when seeing how we choose to use our aquired power over others to settle a difference of opinion regarding behavioral standards that normally would be seen as applying to real lives and situations only, not to beaviour in a fictional world.
So yes, if looked at it that way, we are indeed waging a war for a reason that has little to do with ingame storylines or game-mechanic related reasoning. We have never had any fear of the goons, to stipulate that we used moral standards as excuse to attack them while secretly just wanting to stop them from becoming an ingame threat is nonsense. As I said before it'd take them at least a year or two to become anywhere near to a real threat, if they'd get there at all and if either of our alliances would even exist at that time. As a amtter of fact, the general gist of opinion on wether or not to select them as a target pre-war within BoB was something along the line of "let them grow, they'll be more fun to fight once they've grown stronger and might pose a real challenge".
However, back to the real reason for the conflict. As I said it's a conflict based on us judging the behaviour of some of them to be inexcusable. I realise that that's a viewpoint depending on your standards, and that within the much vaunted internet practice of moral relativity theory our standards aren't worth anything more or less then anyone else's. According to such reasoning, only pure tangible profit or provable gain can at any tme be worth fighting for outside of pure roleplay.
And again, theoretically (not referring to moral relativity here anymore), that would mean we are indeed acting for the wrong reasons.
However, upholding standards instead of interests by means of power is nothign new in Eve. Every conflict is aprtyl about differences of opinion. Wether those are opinions about who said what or wether what was said is allowed to be said doesn't really matter. The simple fact is that pure moral relativity does not provide a standpoint that can succesfully be argued from (in this case particularly, but in any case where human interaction is at the base of the cause of conflict). After all, the effect of the interaction within Eve *is* real, Smoske died in *reality*, smack causes *real* annoyance, and the bond between friends, even when met across a digital highway is a real bond.
If all that is true, then moral relativity can only go so far. And in this case we've simply decided that that line was crossed, that is all. It's a grey area we're talking about, not in terms of being a new situation in MMO's (every open pvp style game has known cases like this one, just on smaller scale and with less attention drawn to it.), but in it being a uncertainty as to where the line gets drawn.
And yes, that's something a closed-pvp or no-pvp game does not get to deal with as much. If there's no powerbase to use in enforcing your vieuws then there'll be no conflicts started because of them. Incidentally, those same games also offer much stricter rules and better tools to avoid being confronted with uninvited interaction. Eve does not, and that's a massive good thing in my opinion, with the shadowside for some (that might be you, seeing how you actually compare this to a pogrom, which is a comparison I would rather not see you make tbh) that it allows people to use power based on subjective reasoning rather then ovjective.
In the end, CCP decides wether or not that subjective reasoning is something they can allow, on a case by case basis, based on ... you probably guessed it... their own standards.
In this case, they won't mind one bit, that much I can tell you. The goon standard (goon as in goonfleet, not SA forum user) of utter moral relativity excused by Eve being just a game with makebelieve pixelships and pixelammo doesn't really conform with what I've understood to be CCP's general stance on things.
Originally posted by Rod_B However, back to the real reason for the conflict. As I said it's a conflict based on us judging the behaviour of some of them to be inexcusable. I realise that that's a viewpoint depending on your standards, and that within the much vaunted internet practice of moral relativity theory our standards aren't worth anything more or less then anyone else's.
Except that claim doesn't seem to match with what BOB has been saying; the original tasteless joke was made something like a year ago and only gets brought up by other people. The signature that prompted this blowup was from several months ago and, when someone brought it up, the Goonfleet leaders apologized and kicked the person who had the .sig.
The key point in my eye's is BoB's response to the apology and kicking was to say that the apology was not humble enough. It doesn't really appear to be about offense at the signature or the joke from a year ago, if that was the case then a sincere apology and kicking the offending person should be plenty. It looks to me like the problem is that the goons aren't interested in bowing and scraping to the tough guys, not any offense over what was said.
Personally, I think it does far more disservice to the deceased to keep bringing his name up over and over the way certain people who are in BOB or friends of BoB than for someome to have made a tasteless joke about him. The whole self-righteous 'we are avenging our friend' bit is really distateful to me.
I don't have affiliation with either group and I don't like SomethingAwful's forum crew (I poke around there occasionally for entertainment, and I have a pretty negative opinion of them, especially of the 'I AM SO NORMAL, YOU'RE A FREAK ADMIT IT' set). It's kind of interesting to watch EVE politics, but seeing the 'not humble enough' attitude from the established guys confirms to me that I definately don't want to play there.
Originally posted by Urza123 Originally posted by finnmacool1 Quit eve year or so ago, what the hell is BoB?
Band of Brothers it is one of the strongest alliances in EVE today.
A completely PVP orienated Alliance that is highly active. Yes they have a production side, but every single member can pvp with great ability.
They control 3 regions of 0.0 (not constellations, whole figgin regions) and, it appears, attempting to secure at;east 1 more region in an attempt to take the north (completely ignoring the goons and bob hate from some old argument - anything 2 weeks old is old in eve -)
Its interesting, and I bet they'll stay for a long while. But as always, they will be halted at a point, then most likely thrown back (I see this as the 2nd world war in tactics and maneuvering. Yeah BoB are the german's -no affiliation with their reasons, just happening- they come on, blast their way everywhere, using well thought out tactics that work and take control. But later on the united forces of everyone else will take the power from them and reduce them to a smaller powerbase because as we all know, we don't like 1 guy (group) having power for too long.)
"Just because there are other colours to use in chat does not mean you have to use them..." - Please follow
Originally posted by Rod_B However, back to the real reason for the conflict. As I said it's a conflict based on us judging the behaviour of some of them to be inexcusable. I realise that that's a viewpoint depending on your standards, and that within the much vaunted internet practice of moral relativity theory our standards aren't worth anything more or less then anyone else's.
Except that claim doesn't seem to match with what BOB has been saying; the original tasteless joke was made something like a year ago and only gets brought up by other people. The signature that prompted this blowup was from several months ago and, when someone brought it up, the Goonfleet leaders apologized and kicked the person who had the .sig.
The key point in my eye's is BoB's response to the apology and kicking was to say that the apology was not humble enough. It doesn't really appear to be about offense at the signature or the joke from a year ago, if that was the case then a sincere apology and kicking the offending person should be plenty. It looks to me like the problem is that the goons aren't interested in bowing and scraping to the tough guys, not any offense over what was said.
Personally, I think it does far more disservice to the deceased to keep bringing his name up over and over the way certain people who are in BOB or friends of BoB than for someome to have made a tasteless joke about him. The whole self-righteous 'we are avenging our friend' bit is really distateful to me.
I don't have affiliation with either group and I don't like SomethingAwful's forum crew (I poke around there occasionally for entertainment, and I have a pretty negative opinion of them, especially of the 'I AM SO NORMAL, YOU'RE A FREAK ADMIT IT' set). It's kind of interesting to watch EVE politics, but seeing the 'not humble enough' attitude from the established guys confirms to me that I definately don't want to play there.
Well, we dont actually have an issue with the something awfull forum users, just with the bad part of goonfleet alliance, and by association with the good parts of goonfleet alliance.
Other then that I;m not up for discussing the whole deal. It's been blown out of proportion and twisted to no end and as such further discussion is useless.
So let's conclude that yes, we have made a judgement call, based on our own standards and not some supposed universal standard. We don't expect the whole of Eve to act in a way we aprove of, but when they cross the lines we determine then we'll take action, that's all there's to it. We wouldn't expect anything less from others really. And yes, as I said in my previous post you can take that statement and twist it to show us as being bigots if you want, we don't believe in endless moral relativitionism (sp), and thus we'll simpyl ahve to disagree that this is inherently a bad decision.
Don;t take this as some type of backpedalling btw, it's not. I still think we're doing the right thing and I still agree with just about every post made by a BoB director on this subject. We're not going to back down.
Well, this whole incident is causing me to cancel. A shame too, because I was just starting to get back into the game.
You just are blowing this whole matter way out of proportion, we keep telling you its over the line of good taste, you simply are not interested in hearing it, and you seem to think you are blameless.
Why would I want to stay in a game with people who can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality?
I can explain to you what exactly brings me to believe that BoB is out of touch with normalcy. Suffice it to say that it matters so much to you to force people to see the square as "white," when it is really "black" is insanity of the highest order. You babble on and on about moral relativism, yet its only important if you think EVE is real.
Its not though. I have to thank the Goons for reminding us of it. They were funny, and I very much enjoyed them, even though I was never a Goon. They also reminded us to keep things in perspective.
Good luck in your war against meaningless things, in a meaningless simulation.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Well, this whole incident is causing me to cancel. A shame too, because I was just starting to get back into the game.
You just are blowing this whole matter way out of proportion, we keep telling you its over the line of good taste, you simply are not interested in hearing it, and you seem to think you are blameless.
Why would I want to stay in a game with people who can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality?
I can explain to you what exactly brings me to believe that BoB is out of touch with normalcy. Suffice it to say that it matters so much to you to force people to see the square as "white," when it is really "black" is insanity of the highest order. You babble on and on about moral relativism, yet its only important if you think EVE is real.
Its not though. I have to thank the Goons for reminding us of it. They were funny, and I very much enjoyed them, even though I was never a Goon. They also reminded us to keep things in perspective.
Good luck in your war against meaningless things, in a meaningless simulation.
/signed
BoB really lost the touch to reality....but that is supposed to happen if u play a game 24/7 and have no other things to do than that. Like a JOB - in RL. This whole matter really has gotton way too far. If somebody calls me a name on the streets or instults any of my friends or relatives i would just laugh because i know people who have this kind of behavior are stupid and dont know it any better. They are already a proof of the lowest level of education and manners. By dragging this conflict into a game and trying to hunt the people that may have hurt you in reality you are showing that you are nothing better than those people. Its like walking to the guy and punch him right in the face....same thing. Only a moron would do that... Stupid people just wont get it that they are stupid they all think they are Einsteins. This is the way it is and it will always be that way.
Well, this whole incident is causing me to cancel. A shame too, because I was just starting to get back into the game.ss things, in a meaningless simulation.
Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. For future reference, playing the martyr card only works when youre in a group of people who like you. When they dont, youre just a suicidal dumbass.
Go ahead and cancel!! BUt we do hope that the BOB/Goon fiasco continues. That way you leave us other corps and alliance alone! Certain alliances like neither BOB nor the Goons. And our hopes is those two groups will obliterate each other of infinite resources and manpower. To the point of non-existance!
Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. For future reference, playing the martyr card only works when youre in a group of people who like you. When they dont, youre just a suicidal dumbass.
I'd play that hand, but the suicide card, the martyr card, and the dumbass card were already played by BoB, and the best card in my hand is the "get out of EVE free before RollinDutchMasters pinches me in the ass" card.
Because if anyone is going to pinch me in the ass, it'll be Backdoor Bandit.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I really dont understand why you are quiting. It is your account so do whatever you want, but to me it just looks like you are an idiot for doing that.....
Originally posted by Urza123 I really dont understand why you are quiting. It is your account so do whatever you want, but to me it just looks like you are an idiot for doing that.....
Don't care too much about how it looks to people, but I've found that if you don't get out of the sandbox when you smell some shit in there, the next thing you know is that you start to smell like shit too. Worst of all you become so used to the stink, you don't even know you smell.
Pretty soon people start taking a dump on eachother and we don't even see anything wrong with it. I'm pretty sure that when the game launched something like this wouldn't have happened. It wouldn't have been tolerated, but then we start to overlook small things, and those small things turn into larger things, those large things turn into huge things.
I'm thinking that this sort of thing is going to become more common as time goes on, more personal, and more nasty. I'm thinking its best not to become too attached to the people and the game, given all the short fuses, and big grudges.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
He, like a lot of other people, are turned off at this kind of PVPing. They don't like it when one person attacks another with the intention of kicking them out of the game....
But with MC getting involved it's looking like this will be the standard war for a while...
I wonder if any of the other alliences are going to attack BOB/MC/D2/ect while this fight is on.
Originally posted by Beatnik59 Originally posted by Urza123 I really dont understand why you are quiting. It is your account so do whatever you want, but to me it just looks like you are an idiot for doing that.....
Don't care too much about how it looks to people, but I've found that if you don't get out of the sandbox when you smell some shit in there, the next thing you know is that you start to smell like shit too. Worst of all you become so used to the stink, you don't even know you smell.
Pretty soon people start taking a dump on eachother and we don't even see anything wrong with it. I'm pretty sure that when the game launched something like this wouldn't have happened. It wouldn't have been tolerated, but then we start to overlook small things, and those small things turn into larger things, those large things turn into huge things.
I'm thinking that this sort of thing is going to become more common as time goes on, more personal, and more nasty. I'm thinking its best not to become too attached to the people and the game, given all the short fuses, and big grudges.
You missed where I said that part about this not being anything new. Or where we're aren't interested in directly forcing all goons out of the game.
Maybe it's you who is overreacting here ? Just maybe ? A teeny weeny little bit ?
What is becoming common in Eve is seeing players and groups of them not care about the game, not care about any part of it except the part they decide to enjoy today or tomorrow. That's the type of player that creates 1500 trial accounts just to bump war targets and random people around in hubh systems. That spams forums with useless and senseless drivel just for sheer annoyance factor. That will form a corp called VietCong Bees because they feel so though that they've declared war on everyone and are sure it's going to be their enemies end. The same people thinking nothing of amending the game client to their advantage as long as the gm's cant prove it.
That's what we think is going wrong with Eve, and at least other then crying and whining about how noone is allowed to let things get personal or emotional in an internet e-game of e-pixelships we actually do something about our conviction.
If that makes you cry and break down, go ahead and leave. I don't see why you would give up that easily, nor why you'd be so fast to judge. Why not try and sit in the middle of things for a bit huh ? Why not go and look who is right befiore spouting your nonsense.
Well I personally don't see the need for the melodramatic exit from the game. Yes that corner of the sandbox my smell of shit, but the other side does not. Whats the problem with moving away..? I'll put it another way aswell. You see BoB and D2 etc have the nothern regions of the Eve verse. Since there are a lot more regions away from there down south (even though CCP has sort of done a major screw up by releasing information they are expanding the north and only the north when they implament more systems... Idiots) Move south. Yeah there may be a few more people to bump heads with because there arn't any 'large' 'safe' area's for an alliance. It still doesn't really matter in the slightest. Thhe whole point, is whilst this war is on, may it be on the dumbest reasons in yours and many eyes, it doesn't really give you reason to say 'hey a big group of the game world just dec'd war on another big group because of name calling, they are taking it too serious, I'm out of here.' Your saying the same thing, why is THEIR efforts annoying YOU? Is this proof your taking it too serious..? Heck I wouldn't give a slightest care if the entire BoB alliance war dec'd my corp/alliance because one of the newer/older members insulted the dead guy, yeah its tasteless. But to attack us would be hilairious, something I would get friends to come over and watch with me as I showed them how 'serious' BoB was, camping a station so that anyone that left got popped. They'd laugh and go back to reality, may it be working, family, movies, etc. This over blown incident is just a laugh now.
Bob you went too far with what you said about ridding the eve verse of all goonfleet, Your going to become the biggest joke when you fall, bigger then anything else. Yeah you have power, but power means nothing when your entire Alliance is disgraced because they avenged the name of a RL dead person because ONE member of ONE corporation insulted him, so you beat up the entire ALLIANCE.
And I liked you guys, fun to fight, honorable if you survived the pod lock, now its just sad.
"Just because there are other colours to use in chat does not mean you have to use them..." - Please follow
The beauty of Eve is that everybody who plays it crafts the world in some way, gives it their own unique signature, like carving "Jesse loves Simone" on the bark of a tree, the tree was a thousand years old but you left your mark on it forever.
If you believe in something, you stand for it, defend it, support it, within the context of the game, you do not help a cause by committing suicide for it, or by taking all your marbles and going home, that's like sticking your head in the ground.
If you are not enjoying the game, then by all means quit, but quitting because of BoB is retarded.
If someone is making you miserable, and you have 1 round in the chamber, don't put the bullet in YOUR head, put it in HIS.
Seriously, just have fun and try to keep it clean in there. Still got 20 days, and I can always come back.
There are some things that are worth getting bent out of shape trying to correct, and sometimes its better to just walk away and save a few bucks.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Originally posted by Beatnik59 There are some things that are worth getting bent out of shape trying to correct
Exactly.
Those who know BoB also know that the dish never is eaten as hot as it's served (dutch proverb, don't know if it translates well into english ).
Like I said, it's a difference of ideology. I consider goonfleet to have crossed the line with their utterly inconsiderate attitude, and Eve being waht it is, that means it affects all of us al;ready. That's the line they crossed that I simply don't want to see crossed by a group of their size, a group that affects and will affect large protions of the playerbase with their behaviour.
I think we can end the discussion here, don't you ? If there's been no reconciliation or understanding by now it'll never come.
Exactly. Those who know BoB also know that the dish never is eaten as hot as it's served (dutch proverb, don't know if it translates well into english ). Like I said, it's a difference of ideology. I consider goonfleet to have crossed the line with their utterly inconsiderate attitude, and Eve being waht it is, that means it affects all of us al;ready. That's the line they crossed that I simply don't want to see crossed by a group of their size, a group that affects and will affect large protions of the playerbase with their behaviour. I think we can end the discussion here, don't you ? If there's been no reconciliation or understanding by now it'll never come.
There is an American proverb that says, "if three people call you a horse, you'd better saddle up."
I don't see this as a matter of ideology. I see it as one group who feels EVE is for people they like, and a large group of players who says that its for everyone. EVE being what it is, it means that I have to accept what players like you say that it is, resist and face the consequences, or just leave.
Option one goes against what I think games should be about. Option two just gets me sucked into madness with the mad. Option three is actually the most sensible choice, and I'm actually quite thankful that I can still make that choice.
You see, I'm not sure you can anymore. Fantasy and reality overlap in your mind so strongly, I'm not sure if your thoughts and emotions can tell the difference anymore between the two.
Yes I agree with you that they have been an example to the playerbase, and I think they made a lot of sense. Certain players are so emotionally attached to EVE, that it causes psychological and emotional distress when something goes on there that isn't what they think is proper.
I have no doubt the events affect you and BoB on a deep psychological and emotional level, and you are afraid that players will actually believe the truth in what I and the Goons are saying. That is to say, you are examples of unhealthy and disturbed players that are lashing out at the thing that is unravelling your fantasy world, which has become an artificial extension of your personality.
One might say that in many cases, EVE is the symbolic representation of BoB's manhood. To expose the game as a mere game, they are insulting BoB's manhood. It is why such mere things are blown out of proportion, and something I personally want to get away from, because its unhealthy.
So rather than become emotionally attached to people like you, and events like these, I choose to unsubscribe. A psyche and perspective is something you have to take active steps to maintain.
The funny thing is hearing some of the responses here, like an account cancellation is "suicide," and that I should play the game with "conviction," and that its like "taking my marbles and going home," are fankly just evidence that what I am saying is true. There is too much insanity that is becoming disturbingly acceptable.
We can end the discussion here Rod, because ultimately, you must accept the truth on your own. But being so attached to this game isn't going to help you in the long run. To tell you the truth, the Goons will be a lot better off if they get driven out of EVE than if some like you are. They like the game, but certain players are addicted to the game.
I mean, you should be glad Rod. One more of the "filthy masses" that upset you are leaving your fantasy world.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Comments
just like the US. any genius that is not on top 5 country goes to US, who messes on any conflict (whether they are invited or not) they want to, just because they can loose 100 tanks a day and not even feel it
is the USA good for the world?
pd: that is a nice analogy too. USA= the Wallmart of the world
Have some cheese with your /whine! Stay on topic!
it is on topic. asking whether BoB is good or not for EVE is like asking if the USA are good for the world. maybe they are not good. neither of them. but they are necesary
You know Rod, I was thinking today about this whole situation and it just occurred to me that we may actually have another first for EVE, Tranquility, and BoB.
I know you won't like what I have to say. I can't help if you take it personally, because you probably will. That's not my intent though so much as to look at this situation in terms of politics in the real world as a reflection of EVE, and how the two are similar.
In your perception this war is the same as all the other ones. Somehow though, I feel this one is different from any other conflict I have seen in EVE, or in any MMO for that matter. Evidence for this comes in the form of toning down your rhetoric considerably to placate we who are making the accusations we do. I think you of all people are starting to realize that this is not pretty, and are trying to do your best to save face.
Words are one thing, but actions are another. I usually don't read the killboards, but I have been lately, and I see the red blobs when I log in and change the panel to "ships destroyed in the last 24 hours." Yet they still fly, and they still get destroyed.
I don't read your synopsis as a statement of fact, Rod. I see it as a statement of hope. You hope that the Goons will abandon being Goons. You hope that the Goons will disband. You hope that the Goons will start adopting behavior you feel is appropriate. The reason for this is that the alternative is a path that you really do not want to go down, and what EVE doesn't want to go down.
In EVE, they allow the players to basically be as nasty as they want to be within the rules. Many see this as one of its strengths. It also gives someone no place to run to if they are enjoying EVE, but not especially enjoying the constraints people put them under. There is no server to run to if Tranquility is out to get you. The player must simply endure the constraints, or leave.
We would have a lot less conflict in the world of reality if we could simply choose a "different shard." We could shard the Holy Land into the Israel Shard, and the Palestine Shard, and both parties would be happy. If we could separate the United States into the Free Shard, and the Slave Shard, we wouldn't have had a Civil War.
I would have to imagine that is why Tranquility is so heavily contested, and why war is all around us. Just like in reality, there can only be one resolution, and someone is going to go away disatisfied.
Many persecutions happen because of behavior that one party or another finds unacceptable. I'm sure that the conflicts between the Sunni and Shi'a happen not because they do not like who they are, but they do not adopt the behavior they find acceptable. Yet they kill eachother regardless, and there is no Sunni or Shi'a shard they may run to.
I'm sure that in many cases, ideology dictates that infidels need to be eliminated for the good of God, or mankind. I'm sure also that in many cases, like in Spain after the Muslim rule, the issue was simply a matter of the offending parties adopting the Lord's Prayer, the Nicene Creed, and the Church. Given time, I am sure nobody would have a problem with the new converts, but of course they would have to abandon their principles. Unfortunately though as with most matters like this, it is not so simple. The beliefs are so strongly held, it often requires extreme measures to enforce the will upon the other.
Enter the "ugly side" of war. The kind we don't often get in video games, but we see repeatedly in the real world around us. Now I'm not going to go into details for fear of breaking Godwin's Law, but its what happens when one side wants to stamp out something they see as evil or unwelcome. Its something that has very little to do with realpolitik, because the slaughter continues for reasons wholly unrelated to power and interest. They do not do it to abolish a power. They do it to abolish a way of life.
I don't want to say that what is happening in S-U8A4, Jita, Kisogo, and elsewhere is a genocide. But I must say that if there were an online equivalent to it, its what is happening to the Goons in EVE. There is nowhere they may run to if they want to be Goons in EVE when the very existance of the Goons is to be erradicated.
Given the nature of EVE, and the evidence I see, I think we may be witnessing the first player-generated virtual pogrom in an MMO, and I have to hand it to EVE, the Goons, and BoB for creating, without ever realizing it, as accurate a portrayal of the "ugly side" of war as we may ever see. I'm not condeming BoB. Quite honestly I don't even think they ever thought of it like that. At least I hope not.
You see Rod, BoB has given 2900 players no choice but to play as non-Goons, or to cancel as Goons. But as the kill rolls mount up, and we see what is being flown, history will see exactly what the purpose was here.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
The whole point of open pvp is, if you open your mouth, someone can close it.
War < > Bad Behavior
Piracy < > Bad Behavior
Scamming < > Bad Behavior
Crime < > Bad Behavior
War Piracy Scamming and Crime are aspects of the game, they are WITHIN the mechanics of the game and part of its SCOPE.
While they are negative actions, they are not "bad behavior" by players, players are playing the game as it is MEANT to be played.
Talking nasty in local, making fun of RL dead people, saying stuff about your mama, saying hateful racial or ethnic slurs, THATS what is considered "bad behavior", blowing someone up is not bad behavior, its in-game behavior.
Of course carebears dont like it, but without destructive in-game aspects, Eve would not be Eve.
Eve = Conflict
Political/Economic/Industrial/Military
If you're not logging in to wage war, then what you logging in for? Just socialize? You can do that docked and nobody can touch you.
Just to mine? Leave corp and go mine, nobody can touch you.
As long as you login day after day with a tag, the enemies of that tag can take you down, this is a PVP GAME.
I don't really get why people get upset over something that was said about someone has died? If the comment was true does it really matter? I have absolutely no idea what was said whether it was true or not, which I doubt matters much as these things are usually very subjective.
Do you see anyone say "Oh yeah that Hitler guy was quite a nice chap really" Just because he is dead?
I agree that this war isn't over this little thing though it is just an excuse to have a bit of bloodshed. Remember though this is a game people play for fun, some people have definitely forgotten about that aspect from the looks of it
Well, there's only one purpose, and yes, it's theoretically ambivalent since it involves morality in a setting thats entirely fictional and thus by default a place where morality has limited place.
That's another way of saying that yes, there is some friction between the notion that this is just a game and the notion that one is keeping up real standards by the use of force. There's no way not to be somewhat ambivalent when seeing how we choose to use our aquired power over others to settle a difference of opinion regarding behavioral standards that normally would be seen as applying to real lives and situations only, not to beaviour in a fictional world.
So yes, if looked at it that way, we are indeed waging a war for a reason that has little to do with ingame storylines or game-mechanic related reasoning. We have never had any fear of the goons, to stipulate that we used moral standards as excuse to attack them while secretly just wanting to stop them from becoming an ingame threat is nonsense. As I said before it'd take them at least a year or two to become anywhere near to a real threat, if they'd get there at all and if either of our alliances would even exist at that time. As a amtter of fact, the general gist of opinion on wether or not to select them as a target pre-war within BoB was something along the line of "let them grow, they'll be more fun to fight once they've grown stronger and might pose a real challenge".
However, back to the real reason for the conflict. As I said it's a conflict based on us judging the behaviour of some of them to be inexcusable. I realise that that's a viewpoint depending on your standards, and that within the much vaunted internet practice of moral relativity theory our standards aren't worth anything more or less then anyone else's. According to such reasoning, only pure tangible profit or provable gain can at any tme be worth fighting for outside of pure roleplay.
And again, theoretically (not referring to moral relativity here anymore), that would mean we are indeed acting for the wrong reasons.
However, upholding standards instead of interests by means of power is nothign new in Eve. Every conflict is aprtyl about differences of opinion. Wether those are opinions about who said what or wether what was said is allowed to be said doesn't really matter. The simple fact is that pure moral relativity does not provide a standpoint that can succesfully be argued from (in this case particularly, but in any case where human interaction is at the base of the cause of conflict). After all, the effect of the interaction within Eve *is* real, Smoske died in *reality*, smack causes *real* annoyance, and the bond between friends, even when met across a digital highway is a real bond.
If all that is true, then moral relativity can only go so far. And in this case we've simply decided that that line was crossed, that is all. It's a grey area we're talking about, not in terms of being a new situation in MMO's (every open pvp style game has known cases like this one, just on smaller scale and with less attention drawn to it.), but in it being a uncertainty as to where the line gets drawn.
And yes, that's something a closed-pvp or no-pvp game does not get to deal with as much. If there's no powerbase to use in enforcing your vieuws then there'll be no conflicts started because of them. Incidentally, those same games also offer much stricter rules and better tools to avoid being confronted with uninvited interaction. Eve does not, and that's a massive good thing in my opinion, with the shadowside for some (that might be you, seeing how you actually compare this to a pogrom, which is a comparison I would rather not see you make tbh) that it allows people to use power based on subjective reasoning rather then ovjective.
In the end, CCP decides wether or not that subjective reasoning is something they can allow, on a case by case basis, based on ... you probably guessed it... their own standards.
In this case, they won't mind one bit, that much I can tell you. The goon standard (goon as in goonfleet, not SA forum user) of utter moral relativity excused by Eve being just a game with makebelieve pixelships and pixelammo doesn't really conform with what I've understood to be CCP's general stance on things.
Except that claim doesn't seem to match with what BOB has been saying; the original tasteless joke was made something like a year ago and only gets brought up by other people. The signature that prompted this blowup was from several months ago and, when someone brought it up, the Goonfleet leaders apologized and kicked the person who had the .sig.
The key point in my eye's is BoB's response to the apology and kicking was to say that the apology was not humble enough. It doesn't really appear to be about offense at the signature or the joke from a year ago, if that was the case then a sincere apology and kicking the offending person should be plenty. It looks to me like the problem is that the goons aren't interested in bowing and scraping to the tough guys, not any offense over what was said.
Personally, I think it does far more disservice to the deceased to keep bringing his name up over and over the way certain people who are in BOB or friends of BoB than for someome to have made a tasteless joke about him. The whole self-righteous 'we are avenging our friend' bit is really distateful to me.
I don't have affiliation with either group and I don't like SomethingAwful's forum crew (I poke around there occasionally for entertainment, and I have a pretty negative opinion of them, especially of the 'I AM SO NORMAL, YOU'RE A FREAK ADMIT IT' set). It's kind of interesting to watch EVE politics, but seeing the 'not humble enough' attitude from the established guys confirms to me that I definately don't want to play there.
Quit eve year or so ago, what the hell is BoB?
A completely PVP orienated Alliance that is highly active. Yes they have a production side, but every single member can pvp with great ability.
They control 3 regions of 0.0 (not constellations, whole figgin regions) and, it appears, attempting to secure at;east 1 more region in an attempt to take the north (completely ignoring the goons and bob hate from some old argument - anything 2 weeks old is old in eve -)
Its interesting, and I bet they'll stay for a long while. But as always, they will be halted at a point, then most likely thrown back (I see this as the 2nd world war in tactics and maneuvering. Yeah BoB are the german's -no affiliation with their reasons, just happening- they come on, blast their way everywhere, using well thought out tactics that work and take control. But later on the united forces of everyone else will take the power from them and reduce them to a smaller powerbase because as we all know, we don't like 1 guy (group) having power for too long.)
"Just because there are other colours to use in chat does not mean you have to use them..." - Please follow
Except that claim doesn't seem to match with what BOB has been saying; the original tasteless joke was made something like a year ago and only gets brought up by other people. The signature that prompted this blowup was from several months ago and, when someone brought it up, the Goonfleet leaders apologized and kicked the person who had the .sig.
The key point in my eye's is BoB's response to the apology and kicking was to say that the apology was not humble enough. It doesn't really appear to be about offense at the signature or the joke from a year ago, if that was the case then a sincere apology and kicking the offending person should be plenty. It looks to me like the problem is that the goons aren't interested in bowing and scraping to the tough guys, not any offense over what was said.
Personally, I think it does far more disservice to the deceased to keep bringing his name up over and over the way certain people who are in BOB or friends of BoB than for someome to have made a tasteless joke about him. The whole self-righteous 'we are avenging our friend' bit is really distateful to me.
I don't have affiliation with either group and I don't like SomethingAwful's forum crew (I poke around there occasionally for entertainment, and I have a pretty negative opinion of them, especially of the 'I AM SO NORMAL, YOU'RE A FREAK ADMIT IT' set). It's kind of interesting to watch EVE politics, but seeing the 'not humble enough' attitude from the established guys confirms to me that I definately don't want to play there.
Well, we dont actually have an issue with the something awfull forum users, just with the bad part of goonfleet alliance, and by association with the good parts of goonfleet alliance.
Other then that I;m not up for discussing the whole deal. It's been blown out of proportion and twisted to no end and as such further discussion is useless.
So let's conclude that yes, we have made a judgement call, based on our own standards and not some supposed universal standard. We don't expect the whole of Eve to act in a way we aprove of, but when they cross the lines we determine then we'll take action, that's all there's to it. We wouldn't expect anything less from others really. And yes, as I said in my previous post you can take that statement and twist it to show us as being bigots if you want, we don't believe in endless moral relativitionism (sp), and thus we'll simpyl ahve to disagree that this is inherently a bad decision.
Don;t take this as some type of backpedalling btw, it's not. I still think we're doing the right thing and I still agree with just about every post made by a BoB director on this subject. We're not going to back down.
Well, this whole incident is causing me to cancel. A shame too, because I was just starting to get back into the game.
You just are blowing this whole matter way out of proportion, we keep telling you its over the line of good taste, you simply are not interested in hearing it, and you seem to think you are blameless.
Why would I want to stay in a game with people who can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality?
I can explain to you what exactly brings me to believe that BoB is out of touch with normalcy. Suffice it to say that it matters so much to you to force people to see the square as "white," when it is really "black" is insanity of the highest order. You babble on and on about moral relativism, yet its only important if you think EVE is real.
Its not though. I have to thank the Goons for reminding us of it. They were funny, and I very much enjoyed them, even though I was never a Goon. They also reminded us to keep things in perspective.
Good luck in your war against meaningless things, in a meaningless simulation.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Well, this whole incident is causing me to cancel. A shame too, because I was just starting to get back into the game.
You just are blowing this whole matter way out of proportion, we keep telling you its over the line of good taste, you simply are not interested in hearing it, and you seem to think you are blameless.
Why would I want to stay in a game with people who can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality?
I can explain to you what exactly brings me to believe that BoB is out of touch with normalcy. Suffice it to say that it matters so much to you to force people to see the square as "white," when it is really "black" is insanity of the highest order. You babble on and on about moral relativism, yet its only important if you think EVE is real.
Its not though. I have to thank the Goons for reminding us of it. They were funny, and I very much enjoyed them, even though I was never a Goon. They also reminded us to keep things in perspective.
Good luck in your war against meaningless things, in a meaningless simulation.
/signed
BoB really lost the touch to reality....but that is supposed to happen if u play a game 24/7 and have no other things to do than that. Like a JOB - in RL. This whole matter really has gotton way too far. If somebody calls me a name on the streets or instults any of my friends or relatives i would just laugh because i know people who have this kind of behavior are stupid and dont know it any better. They are already a proof of the lowest level of education and manners. By dragging this conflict into a game and trying to hunt the people that may have hurt you in reality you are showing that you are nothing better than those people. Its like walking to the guy and punch him right in the face....same thing. Only a moron would do that...
Stupid people just wont get it that they are stupid they all think they are Einsteins. This is the way it is and it will always be that way.
Well, this whole incident is causing me to cancel. A shame too, because I was just starting to get back into the game.ss things, in a meaningless simulation.
Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. For future reference, playing the martyr card only works when youre in a group of people who like you. When they dont, youre just a suicidal dumbass.
Go ahead and cancel!! BUt we do hope that the BOB/Goon fiasco continues. That way you leave us other corps and alliance alone! Certain alliances like neither BOB nor the Goons. And our hopes is those two groups will obliterate each other of infinite resources and manpower. To the point of non-existance!
SO PLEASE WAR ON!!!
I'd play that hand, but the suicide card, the martyr card, and the dumbass card were already played by BoB, and the best card in my hand is the "get out of EVE free before RollinDutchMasters pinches me in the ass" card.
Because if anyone is going to pinch me in the ass, it'll be Backdoor Bandit.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I really dont understand why you are quiting. It is your account so do whatever you want, but to me it just looks like you are an idiot for doing that.....
Don't care too much about how it looks to people, but I've found that if you don't get out of the sandbox when you smell some shit in there, the next thing you know is that you start to smell like shit too. Worst of all you become so used to the stink, you don't even know you smell.
Pretty soon people start taking a dump on eachother and we don't even see anything wrong with it. I'm pretty sure that when the game launched something like this wouldn't have happened. It wouldn't have been tolerated, but then we start to overlook small things, and those small things turn into larger things, those large things turn into huge things.
I'm thinking that this sort of thing is going to become more common as time goes on, more personal, and more nasty. I'm thinking its best not to become too attached to the people and the game, given all the short fuses, and big grudges.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
He, like a lot of other people, are turned off at this kind of PVPing. They don't like it when one person attacks another with the intention of kicking them out of the game....
But with MC getting involved it's looking like this will be the standard war for a while...
I wonder if any of the other alliences are going to attack BOB/MC/D2/ect while this fight is on.
EDIT:
ttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
Now if I need more t's there here....
Don't care too much about how it looks to people, but I've found that if you don't get out of the sandbox when you smell some shit in there, the next thing you know is that you start to smell like shit too. Worst of all you become so used to the stink, you don't even know you smell.
Pretty soon people start taking a dump on eachother and we don't even see anything wrong with it. I'm pretty sure that when the game launched something like this wouldn't have happened. It wouldn't have been tolerated, but then we start to overlook small things, and those small things turn into larger things, those large things turn into huge things.
I'm thinking that this sort of thing is going to become more common as time goes on, more personal, and more nasty. I'm thinking its best not to become too attached to the people and the game, given all the short fuses, and big grudges.
You missed where I said that part about this not being anything new. Or where we're aren't interested in directly forcing all goons out of the game.
Maybe it's you who is overreacting here ? Just maybe ? A teeny weeny little bit ?
What is becoming common in Eve is seeing players and groups of them not care about the game, not care about any part of it except the part they decide to enjoy today or tomorrow. That's the type of player that creates 1500 trial accounts just to bump war targets and random people around in hubh systems. That spams forums with useless and senseless drivel just for sheer annoyance factor. That will form a corp called VietCong Bees because they feel so though that they've declared war on everyone and are sure it's going to be their enemies end. The same people thinking nothing of amending the game client to their advantage as long as the gm's cant prove it.
That's what we think is going wrong with Eve, and at least other then crying and whining about how noone is allowed to let things get personal or emotional in an internet e-game of e-pixelships we actually do something about our conviction.
If that makes you cry and break down, go ahead and leave. I don't see why you would give up that easily, nor why you'd be so fast to judge. Why not try and sit in the middle of things for a bit huh ? Why not go and look who is right befiore spouting your nonsense.
Bob you went too far with what you said about ridding the eve verse of all goonfleet, Your going to become the biggest joke when you fall, bigger then anything else. Yeah you have power, but power means nothing when your entire Alliance is disgraced because they avenged the name of a RL dead person because ONE member of ONE corporation insulted him, so you beat up the entire ALLIANCE.
And I liked you guys, fun to fight, honorable if you survived the pod lock, now its just sad.
"Just because there are other colours to use in chat does not mean you have to use them..." - Please follow
The beauty of Eve is that everybody who plays it crafts the world in some way, gives it their own unique signature, like carving "Jesse loves Simone" on the bark of a tree, the tree was a thousand years old but you left your mark on it forever.
If you believe in something, you stand for it, defend it, support it, within the context of the game, you do not help a cause by committing suicide for it, or by taking all your marbles and going home, that's like sticking your head in the ground.
If you are not enjoying the game, then by all means quit, but quitting because of BoB is retarded.
If someone is making you miserable, and you have 1 round in the chamber, don't put the bullet in YOUR head, put it in HIS.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Exactly.
Those who know BoB also know that the dish never is eaten as hot as it's served (dutch proverb, don't know if it translates well into english
).
Like I said, it's a difference of ideology. I consider goonfleet to have crossed the line with their utterly inconsiderate attitude, and Eve being waht it is, that means it affects all of us al;ready. That's the line they crossed that I simply don't want to see crossed by a group of their size, a group that affects and will affect large protions of the playerbase with their behaviour.
I think we can end the discussion here, don't you ? If there's been no reconciliation or understanding by now it'll never come.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE