Originally posted by seabass2003 Originally posted by Malachi1975 Originally posted by seabass2003 Freethinker, Why do believers have to prove God exsists? I have seen you say this before. I don't have to prove it, because I am not trying to convert anyone to my beliefs. Just like non-believers don't have to prove God doesn't exist as long as they are not trying to change anyones beliefs. The only time anyone has to prove anything is when they are trying to change someone's thinking. To sum up, I believe in God, you don't believe in God, who really gives a shit? It shouldn't really matter because at least we are all human and have the freedom of choice. (Oh shit I hope this doesn't turn into a free will thread now) Now lets go have a beer.
Sadly, Seabass, at this very moment I am going to exercise my freewill to come steal your beer. And even sadder to the fact, I'm within driving distance to do it
Oh noes!!!1111!! I guess I should go buy some beer if your going to come steal it. Might want to bring your GF too because you are going to need the extra help, my GF is a Second Degree Black Belt. LOL. Its funny but we might actually meet in RL someday. As long as your not from North Las Vegas. HAHA!
Nah, the nicer part of East. Right near the foot of Sunrise Mountatin, actually. Hell, we have already run into each other! (spooky music). As for your girlfriend helping...I will just tell her you said those pants make her look fat. Then the beer is all mine while she beats you senseless :P
"What is it I have against Microsoft, you ask? Well, you know how you feel when you wait for an MMO to come out and when it does you feel like you've paid to play it's beta test for another 6-9 months before anything even thinks of working the way it should? Being a network engineer you feel that way about anything Microsoft puts out."
Originally posted by methane47 Originally posted by tetsul Ah, back to the standard God/No God thread, they all seem to turn into that with enough time. So I'm going to randomly throw out stuff. So who's seen that Left Behind game? Is it just me or does something seem really really messed with the whole concept of basing a game on that topic?
LOL i cracked up soooooo much when i heard about that game.. I'm so excited to play it... apparently there's gonna be kililng in the game... In an interview with one of the developers he says they opted to have killing because this is a game that will be a depiction of what the world may be like in the "end of days" So there will be killing...
But i had to laugh because the game was actually featured on the Daily show i think... There was a clip where someone asked about how killing would be handled.. apparently if you kill an innocent you get "negative one spirit points" and if you kill justly you get "2 spirt points" Then Jon steward went on to say "I had no idea the difference between saving a life and taking a life... was.... 3 points".... lol...... this game is gonna rock
One neat thing I saw about it was changing the buildings to like a barracks or a bank but it doesn't show as such to the other side. But anyways it just seems kind of... strange... to base a game after a modern religion's future prophecies. At least I think that's what wierd about it (maybe), I still haven't quite figured it out exactly.
"Tryin real hard to turn it back around on me, aren't you. Now listen closely: I DON'T BELIEVE ANYTHING IS ABSOLUTE. k?"
Hate to tell you chief, but you just went ABSOLUTE right there. You are saying God ABSOLUTELY cannot exists outside time and space.
Straw man fallacy. (you seem to like those).I am saying that God cannot exist outside of time/space because logic tells us that's the case. Furthermore, to maintain the position that he can is incoherent. That said, LOGIC IS NOT AN ABSOLUTE...so I also maintain that I could be wrong. However, THATS WHAT YOU NEED TO PROVE AND ARE UNABLE TO DO SO. so much for you trying to peg me as making absolute statments.
Incorrect. You did state an abolsute. You said that God would be held by the rules of space and time as you know them as an abolsute. Meaning, that if you percieve space and time in a certain fashion and He is above those rules of laws that he must not exist. The absolute being that you KNOW that God would be subjected to the same rules of space and time that you are.
As for saying Theists claiming that God absolutely exists I don't see myself as having ever said that. While I will say I believe He exists, through my faith and personal experiences (which you call irrelevant).
Nice strawman.
I don't believe the laws of logic, science, time space ANYTHING is absolute. They are CONDITIONALLY true. Furthermore, it's not my problem if you don't understand the difference. I do, you obviously don't and can't even go so far as to say anything other than flimsy insults. You call people opinions "anecdotal" or "strawmen". You're really hitting a new low moment by moment.
I'm calling them anecdotal and strawmen not to insult you but because THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE.
I've been very patient with you in pointing out your errors...but frankly, its getting tiring.
You just admitted that all things are conditionally true, actually, i've maintained this position all along. scroll uptherefore, one can say with reasonable certainty that if there IS indeed a God that He may be able to exist outside the concepts of space and time which you hold dear. Welcome to a condition.
Sure, just as i've repeated for the thrid time that tomorrow a dropped apple will fall toward the sky instead of toward the earth.
Care to prove anything? or are you going to keep whining?
Do you kn.....
-----SNIP...more blathering---- .....ave been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. Good day.
come back when you're ready to refute the argument. You're semantics and roundabout arguing is tiresome.
come back when you're ready to refute the argument. You're semantics and roundabout arguing is tiresome.
Shall we then hear what you definition of "refute" is, please? Because it's obviously not the same as the standardised definitions. Perhaps I missed the Freethinkerian Dictionary when I was visiting the Library of Congress.
So we will start at step one, anyone have some crayons I can borrow to make it easier for this guy to understand? Anyone? No...oh well.
Define "refute".
"What is it I have against Microsoft, you ask? Well, you know how you feel when you wait for an MMO to come out and when it does you feel like you've paid to play it's beta test for another 6-9 months before anything even thinks of working the way it should? Being a network engineer you feel that way about anything Microsoft puts out."
Ignore this post. MMORPG.COM software took a steamy one on itself.
Ignore this post. MMORPG.COM software took a steamy one on itself.
"What is it I have against Microsoft, you ask? Well, you know how you feel when you wait for an MMO to come out and when it does you feel like you've paid to play it's beta test for another 6-9 months before anything even thinks of working the way it should? Being a network engineer you feel that way about anything Microsoft puts out."
Ok malachi1975... I'm going to have to please ask you to clean up your posts... They are giving me a headache to read... Especially with the triple and quadruple posts... Just a thought...
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
Originally posted by methane47 Ok malachi1975... I'm going to have to please ask you to clean up your posts... They are giving me a headache to read... Especially with the triple and quadruple posts... Just a thought...
Been trying to the whole time. This crappy forum software likes to spazz with script errors. I am still trying to clean the one up above. They really need to move over to a REAL forum software soon.
"What is it I have against Microsoft, you ask? Well, you know how you feel when you wait for an MMO to come out and when it does you feel like you've paid to play it's beta test for another 6-9 months before anything even thinks of working the way it should? Being a network engineer you feel that way about anything Microsoft puts out."
Originally posted by methane47 Originally posted by freethinker ... Bunch of stuff here
Sadly my friend I doubt you know what you are talking about. You tell me Goddidit is not a theory because it isn't testable... Well go ahead and show me what tests you have for Theory of Relativity, Black holes, Big Bang, String Theory....
Read the Wikis. It's not my job to educate you on the world's theories on a gaming forum. Furthermore, that other poster is wearing my patients thin. So go do your own homework..I've already wen't above and beyone linking you to a place to learn about them.
Let's just put it this way, to refute those theories you need to (first, and most importantly) KNOW WHAT THEY ARE. Then it helps to write a book or paper, submit it to a scientific journal, then get it peer reviewed by other scientists. In your paper you should include details on how/why those theories are wrong (this will involve a lot of boring mathematics) then something that explains them better.
good luck with that.
Maybe ToR is a theory because it's backed up by Eiestein.. oh Wait... he had to invent a WHOLE NEW FORM OF MATH for his equations to work...
It can be used to predict accuratley....Goddidit didn't predict jack.
(hint: we didn't send a man to the moon by praying him there)
maybe black holes? Nope... Untestable...
Bigbang?... NOPE unless you have been able to produce an explosion large enough to create the universe... cuz i'd love to see that...
String theory... We dont even know HOW to test it... We barely understand this at all...
sigh...read up on these theories. You are drowning in your own ignorance. If you really feel you can just discount them based on what you PERCIEVE them to be you are wrong. But then again ignorance gives us that comfort, doesn't it? It's so much nicer to say Goddidit.
Waala, a flip of the tounge and we've an answer for everything we don't know about.
Please link here when you've submited your evidences and have come up with a better theory to explain redshift/blueshift, CMBR, particle physics, universal expansion, quantum physics, etc....
oh man. I'd stay up for it, but it's getting quite late
Now to say Goddidit isn't a theory because it's not testable is the same as denying all those others... Unless of course you have word of some test that shows those things are indeed fact?
Goddidit is not a theory because IT'S NOT SUPPORTED BY EVIDENCE.
Goddidit is conjecture and an Argument from Ignorance to explain something that we...scratch that...YOU don't understand.
What is it with you theists and your strawmen???
EDit: dont even say those tests of ToR.. because those tests are widely debated... stand on a shakey footing... Can be caused by A number of things... Just dont say much about the theory..etc
Wow..what an incredibly convincing argument. "those tests" eh? *sigh*
Ow man I thought everybody quit playing Earth: The Real Life a long time ago, I see however that they released an expansion were players wairing tin foil hats get larger groups? Meh cancel man, like we all did ages ago...
Gah! I don't what the hell is up and why it's repeating everyting 1000 times. Only happens with Freethinker too.
"What is it I have against Microsoft, you ask? Well, you know how you feel when you wait for an MMO to come out and when it does you feel like you've paid to play it's beta test for another 6-9 months before anything even thinks of working the way it should? Being a network engineer you feel that way about anything Microsoft puts out."
Originally posted by seabass2003 Freethinker, Why do believers have to prove God exsists? I have seen you say this before. I don't have to prove it, because I am not trying to convert anyone to my beliefs. Just like non-believers don't have to prove God doesn't exist as long as they are not trying to change anyones beliefs. I see what you're saying seabass. One generally doesn't have to prove what he believes unless he tries to pass it off as objective truth.
one's intentions are very much besides the point.
Once someone has passed of his believe as objective fact then the burden of proof is on him to provide evidence. The reason has already been stated by modjoe86 and many other places throughout this forum.
To sum up, I believe in God, you don't believe in God, who really gives a shit? It shouldn't really matter because at least we are all human and have the freedom of choice. (Oh shit I hope this doesn't turn into a free will thread now) Now lets go have a beer.
I love me some Bass Ale...
And, right...as long as it's your own subjective belief and you're not trying to state it as reality to everyone else...you have nothing to prove. I would at least invite you to consider that you may be wrong and read up on what agnosticism/atheism is about. It's really quite freeing...this is coming from someone who raised and believed in the supernatural for 18 years.
Unfortunately I cannot refute anything right now since this software is opting to repeat anything I put in quotes 20 times or more. Tried it from 4 computers so the issue lay with the forum software.
"What is it I have against Microsoft, you ask? Well, you know how you feel when you wait for an MMO to come out and when it does you feel like you've paid to play it's beta test for another 6-9 months before anything even thinks of working the way it should? Being a network engineer you feel that way about anything Microsoft puts out."
Originally posted by freethinker Read the Wikis. It's not my job to educate you on the world's theories on a gaming forum. Furthermore, that other poster is wearing my patients thin. So go do your own homework..I've already wen't above and beyone linking you to a place to learn about them.
Let's just put it this way, to refute those theories you need to (first, and most importantly) KNOW WHAT THEY ARE. Then it helps to write a book or paper, submit it to a scientific journal, then get it peer reviewed by other scientists. In your paper you should include details on how/why those theories are wrong (this will involve a lot of boring mathematics) then something that explains them better.
good luck with that.
Maybe you should read up on the wikis... Pay close attention to the parts in where they state the errors or short comings of their tests... if any
It can be used to predict accuratley....Goddidit didn't predict jack.
(hint: we didn't send a man to the moon by praying him there)
My magic Eight ball can accurately predict a whole lot of stuff to... By the way... The bible also has accurately predicted tonnes of things... Just thought you should know.
sigh...read up on these theories. You are drowning in your own ignorance. If you really feel you can just discount them based on what you PERCIEVE them to be you are wrong. But then again ignorance gives us that comfort, doesn't it? It's so much nicer to say Goddidit.
Waala, a flip of the tounge and we've an answer for everything we don't know about.
Please link here when you've submited your evidences and have come up with a better theory to explain redshift/blueshift, CMBR, particle physics, universal expansion, quantum physics, etc....
oh man. I'd stay up for it, but it's getting quite late
I'm just going to relegate your comment to "I have no idea what they are So i'm just going to say that you have no idea what they are" bin.... And it's not what I percieve... It's what the scientific community percieves.
Goddidit is not a theory because IT'S NOT SUPPORTED BY EVIDENCE.
Goddidit is conjecture and an Argument from Ignorance to explain something that we...scratch that...YOU don't understand.
What is it with you theists and your strawmen???
And what evidence supports String theory? what evidence supports Multiverse?
Wow..what an incredibly convincing argument. "those tests" eh? *sigh*
And no it's not my job to disprove anything... It's the job of the theorist to prove truth.. not the other way around. Lets see Goddidit.. has written accounts of its truth... observations by people... Goddidit also has a pretty big book that has predicted tonnes of things over time.... But it's NOT a theory.. because you of your biased opinion .... Which holds double standards towards other accepted theories..
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
Originally posted by methane47 Originally posted by freethinker Read the Wikis. It's not my job to educate you on the world's theories on a gaming forum. Furthermore, that other poster is wearing my patients thin. So go do your own homework..I've already wen't above and beyone linking you to a place to learn about them.
Let's just put it this way, to refute those theories you need to (first, and most importantly) KNOW WHAT THEY ARE. Then it helps to write a book or paper, submit it to a scientific journal, then get it peer reviewed by other scientists. In your paper you should include details on how/why those theories are wrong (this will involve a lot of boring mathematics) then something that explains them better.
good luck with that.
Maybe you should read up on the wikis... Pay close attention to the parts in where they state the errors or short comings of their tests... if any
YOU MEAN THERE ARE SHORTCOMINGS IN SCIENTIFIC THEORIES????? You must be joking. YOU MEAN THEY ARE NOT PERFECT??? WOW. That MUST prove goddidit.
hehe. more evidence you have no idea on what what a scientific theory is. Keep opening your mouth.
It can be used to predict accuratley....Goddidit didn't predict jack.
(hint: we didn't send a man to the moon by praying him there)
My magic Eight ball can accurately predict a whole lot of stuff to... By the way... The bible also has accurately predicted tonnes of things... Just thought you should know.
Oh, i'm sure...TONS of things right?
Thanks for telling me...since you've already established your credibility and are a wonderful source of information and knowledge.
sigh...read up on these theories. You are drowning in your own ignorance. If you really feel you can just discount them based on what you PERCIEVE them to be you are wrong. But then again ignorance gives us that comfort, doesn't it? It's so much nicer to say Goddidit.
Waala, a flip of the tounge and we've an answer for everything we don't know about.
Please link here when you've submited your evidences and have come up with a better theory to explain redshift/blueshift, CMBR, particle physics, universal expansion, quantum physics, etc....
oh man. I'd stay up for it, but it's getting quite late
I'm just going to relegate your comment to "I have no idea what they are So i'm just going to say that you have no idea what they are" bin.... And it's not what I percieve... It's what the scientific community percieves.
And you, sir, have your thumb right on the proverbial pulse of the scientific community. It's apparent in all your evidences. keep going please
Goddidit is not a theory because IT'S NOT SUPPORTED BY EVIDENCE.
Goddidit is conjecture and an Argument from Ignorance to explain something that we...scratch that...YOU don't understand.
What is it with you theists and your strawmen???
And what evidence supports String theory? what evidence supports Multiverse?
You know, I'm starting to wonder how much time you spend trying to obtain a free education from gaming forums....that might explain a lot.
And no it's not my job to disprove anything... It's the job of the theorist to prove truth.. not the other way around. Lets see Goddidit.. has written accounts of its truth... observations by people... Goddidit also has a pretty big book that has predicted tonnes of things over time.... But it's NOT a theory.. because you of your biased opinion .... Which holds double standards towards other accepted theories..
well, you've certainly proved a lot here. incredible. you should just submit this for the nobel prize...i'm sure you'll win.
Originally posted by freethinker YOU MEAN THERE ARE SHORTCOMINGS IN SCIENTIFIC THEORIES????? You must be joking. YOU MEAN THEY ARE NOT PERFECT??? WOW. That MUST prove goddidit.
hehe. more evidence you have no idea on what what a scientific theory is. Keep opening your mouth.
Oh, i'm sure...TONS of things right?
Thanks for telling me...since you've already established your credibility and are a wonderful source of information and knowledge.
And you, sir, have your thumb right on the proverbial pulse of the scientific community. It's apparent in all your evidences. keep going please
You know, I'm starting to wonder how much time you spend trying to obtain a free education from gaming forums....that might explain a lot. well, you've certainly proved a lot here. incredible. you should just submit this for the nobel prize...i'm sure you'll win.
well..nothing more to debate here.
I'm out...night everyone.
a theory is a systematic and formalized expression of a phenomenon that is observed, predictible , logical and testable. I understand where you say Goddidit isn't a theory... but I find it really interesting that you wouldn't concede to other so called theories not being theories either. Specially when many of the ones i've listed fail to be testable. But you hold that since it's called a "theory" you're not even going to bother looking at what they are... It's ok though... Anyways since you haven't added anything usefull to my statement besides playful banter.. i guess i have nothing to add either.
PS: yes my magic eight ball has predicted tonnes of things.. Usually they are Bush related eg: OOOhhhh Magic eight ball.. Is bush going to do something really stupid tomorrow? M8B: Most certainly...
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
Originally posted by methane47 Originally posted by viadi What is wrong with you people?
Do any of you realise that the bible was written by man? It’s not the word of god rather the thoughts of religious leaders on how we should live our lives
These are the same people that burnt "witches’" at the stake and put anyone to death that said anything other than the world was flat or not the centre of the universe. The bible is fundamentally flawed and contradictory it was written at a time when knowledge of our world was very limited. It has no real relevance on how the world lives today
Faith however is a different matter. Everyone has faith, be it in your partner your family or friends or god or in the law and justice. my faith lies with man every last one of us part of that faith is knowing we all want to live a better life make better choices and do the right thing but that’s my faith that’s what keeps me going when times hard I'm not here to slag off your faith your faith is a good thing but please remember the past and how blind faith held us back and don’t let blind faith do the same to you.
No those aren't the same people who Burnt "witches" at the stake and put anyone to death.... Those are the same people that gave food to the hungry, money to the poor, Stopped people from being stonned to death... Educated people, taught them to read and write... "The world was flat" wasn't a Religious belief.. It was a human belief... The bible was(read I believe) written by man but inspired by God.
so you admit the bible was not penned by god.... at last, do you know our history? and what happend to galileo and what about the courts the sent woman to there painfull deaths thoes very courts were run by the church as for euducating people for hundreds of years the church would not let just anyone learn to read and right it wasent untill henry the 8TH came along and formed the basic laws we have today that it started to change
4000 years from now... We humans will also be "MAY" justified in saying that Albert Einsteins laws were fundamentally flawed because they were written in a time when knowledge was limited. And the truths of the year 2000 have no real relavence to the world in the year 6000... ... You see where i'm going with this?..... There IS no limit to knowledge... We NEVER know the full story...
/mainley agree
So if you're so quick to say that people were stupid in the days of jesus... well you might as well not go to school today cuz people are stupid now compared to the folks in the 60th century.
this is the reason we should go to school and educate ourselfs
Believe it or not there are some things that remain true INdependant of time... one of them could possibly be God... Right? or are you going to tell me with your infinite allllll knowing powerful brain that "THERE IS no God" because you know for a fact everything there is about the world... how it came to be... blah blah
i dont think they is a god where is the evidence? and why are millions of people dieing every years because the rain fails etc (to steel a comment from someone else here) mabe gods too busy showing up in toast to care.
i never said i know it all, i dont and thats part of the joy. but life would be better for everyone if we stood together and learned, rather than divided and failing
I for one believe in the rapture. I dont believe what someone else told me, its called faith. I"ve studied revelations on my "own" , and with my own interpretation think it will happen. You will never know when. But Jesus gives you signs to look for.
Originally posted by Malachi1975 Ack! What you are talking about is Relativism! And that's a scary concept. Live your life as you think is right, with no definitions or right or wrong? At that point there IS no right or wrong. Without SOME guildelines there's no way to decide when murder is right or wrong, when stealing is right or wrong, when violence is right or wrong. I know these are extremes but I am sure you can see what I mean if EVERYone just lives their life how THEY think is right.
Becareful how you define relativism, the way you're taking it is by far the most limited and limiting approach. There are many ways to deal with relativism especially in philosophy and theism. The only unifiying points of all relativistic viewpoints is that A) Everything is relative to the context it is viewed in, and No standpoint is uniquely better than all others. Taken to the extreme and out of context this can lead easily to the asummption that murder is okie or stealing is okie, etc... this is also a frequent arguement used against the libertarians when you move from the theistic arena into the political arena.
Originally posted by Malachi1975 I know what you are saying about Biblical Propechy. Some are vague and could be interpretted as already having happened. That's why any Believer with half a mind (something lacking from the doomsayers of the past like the Millerties) can't focus on a SINGLE prophecy but ALL of them together in a chain. This is actually something that is part of Dispensationalism, which I have spoken about a good deal in this thread.
I'm fairly familiar with dispensationalism, it tends towards the extreme in alot of things which in a general way tends to agitate me, in all honesty dispensationalism tends to hit me as hellfire and brimstone, humans are doomed, and its all washing out kinda way.
Originally posted by Malachi1975 Looking at the Propehcy of the Birth of Christ. I am sure some of the prophecies were fulfilled several times over. But the trick is NEVER before Christ were all 109 prophecies fulfilled. At the very least, 108 were fulfilled. I only leave 1 out because it's the only one that can be argued without any historical proof to back up the Biblical proof. That's the Virgin Birth. But the bloodlines he was to be born to, his place of birth, and so on and so forth are even recorded in Roman documentation of the times. History shows that a man named Jesus of Nazareth, born in Bethlehem was born. Of course, history can't confirm that he was the Son of God. But that's not what I am talking about here.
Of course however there is the problem of historical accuracy, it's easy to make a prophecy in the past fullfilled for future generations especially with some careful manipulation of historical documents and records during the time peroid in question... and its very hard to disprove, especially this far in the future where our view of those times at best is scattered and broken up badly at best... and even more so since the church itself took to destroying any documents found to be in contradiction of the doctrine it laid before the world.
Originally posted by Malachi1975 Some prohecies also have NOT been fulfilled even once. Ezekiel 28 and 29, the attack of God and Magog on Israel has not happened. The 7 year treaty with Israel has never been signed as mentioned in Revelations. The Earth's population was not whiped out till it was only 25% left in a 7 year period as mention in Revelations. Isaiah 17 talks of Damascus being left COMPLETELY destroyed. This has yet to happen...though I find it coincidental that Syria, whose capital is Damascus, is now jumping to threaten Israel and up their border security. That doesn't mean anything is going to happen, but it does make me watch these sorts of things. Some prophecies may have been fulfilled here and there at different times, but when they are laid out in a specific order of chronology in the Scriptures that is where they have NOT been fulfilled normally. Of course, some things have. Like the prophecies of the Messiah. They can obviously be called fulfilled because Christ was born over 2000 years ago. This is why the Bible has to be taken as a whole and not an Astrology chart for "What's going to happen today".
I just find prophecy in any form interesting to read, in a historical sense (especially pre-printing press) its far to easy to manipulate histroy to be exactly what you want, especially when writing documents after the event. I'm not saying that it entirely invalidates things but it makes past prophecy hard to validate in any meaningful sense and future prophecy tends towards being so vague even taken in a chronological order that almost anyone can validate almost anything with it as fullfilling the event (as happened near the millenium).
Originally posted by methane47 Science is so called equipped to deal with changes because by Science... If it isn't proven it's not true... So until Newton.... Gravity was a lie and elaborate hoax... used to get tidthes and offering from weak minded fools... Or Until heat was found to be the speed of atoms moving in a space... Heat was an element contained in the body. And anything else was poppycock.... Science isn't truth.. Science is just a big fat shared opinion.
*twitch* Oh god it hurts.
No, until newton gravity wasn't a lie and elaborate hoax. Newton just put forth a formula and theory about how much energy was required for things to work the way they do... one we largely still use today. He didn't come up with the concept of gravity, before that people weren't idiots. Hell people tried to quantify what gravity was since before the days of Aristotle. If you're going to make up an argument out of thin air at least try to not make yourself sound like a total idiot.
The point the original post was making was simple:
As tools for evaluating our universe get more complex science adjusts itself to compensate for the increase in our knowledge. Theism on the hand says "this is right, this is all that can be right, there is no other way possible." Science can accept that it is wrong and correct itself, theism doesn't have that option.
Compare science at 500 AD and religion at 500 AD. Compare science of today and religion of today.
Science has evolved and become more advanced, it accepts its flaws and attempts to refine itself to perfection. Regardless of applicability to present day religion tends to hold to the same values it originally held for better or worse.
Originally posted by asupermane I for one believe in the rapture. I dont believe what someone else told me, its called faith. I"ve studied revelations on my "own" , and with my own interpretation think it will happen. You will never know when. But Jesus gives you signs to look for.
Bravo! Realistically that's about the only arguement that works when faith is involved
I wish the rapture would happen so you all could go away and leave me alone.
But honestly I have a problem with the whole idea because if only Christians are good enough to be taken when the rapture comes then who is left to fight for good when the whole good and evil war to end all wars happens?
Originally posted by Erom I wish the rapture would happen so you all could go away and leave me alone.
But honestly I have a problem with the whole idea because if only Christians are good enough to be taken when the rapture comes then who is left to fight for good when the whole good and evil war to end all wars happens?
What I highlighted is the general misconception people have about Christians. As a matter of fact we KNOW we're not "good enough". We know we're undeserving and unworthy of ANYthing from God. If the Rapture occurs that does not mean that all of the "good people" are gone. As Christians, we believe it's grace and grace alone that saves us, nothing we can do can earn our way to God.
There's also a tiny bit of a flaw in your logic of "who would be left to fight." Let's say for arguements sakes that next month 100s of millions of people all disappear. Everyone you've ever known who talks about believing in Jesus is gone. All children and babies are gone. Next you see a man rise to power and promise peace to the world and then even go as far as sign a 7 year treaty with Israel. Then this very same man is killed and raises himself from the dead and pronounces himself as god. Don't you think there are going to be people who've heard the stories, read Revelations (or at the very least grabs a Bible immediately and reads Revelations that moment) and starts to put 2 and 2 together? In essence that is what thing like the Rapture Letters are all about. "If this happens, IF the Bible might be right, IF all those people you heard in your life that talked about Jesus being their savoir are gone then you might want to stop and think about it all."
Certianly if everything that I mentioned above happens there will be people who will believe in this man who has risen to power, promises peace, and declares himself god when he rises from the dead. On the other hand there are religions OTHER than Christianity that will give the big ol' "Uh uh...no you didn't!" reaction. Judiasm and Islam are two religions that very quickly would resist this man.
Also, to answer your question of who would be left to fight with Biblical answers. The Bibles tells of 144,000 jews, 12,000 each from the 12 tribes, that would becomes great witnesses. These are called Messianic Jews and what a force to be reckoned with would they be. The Bible itself tells us that an "inumearble number" would be saved. That has to be a MASSIVE number since in the very same book of the Bible number a demonic army as 200 million and the Antichrist's army of Armeggedon at 600 million. So if some is "inumerable" it would lead one to believe that it is probably more than 600 million at the very least. Probably somewhere to the tune of 1,000,000,000 people would come to Christ in those end times. There is who would be standing up to the Antichrist along with God.
"What is it I have against Microsoft, you ask? Well, you know how you feel when you wait for an MMO to come out and when it does you feel like you've paid to play it's beta test for another 6-9 months before anything even thinks of working the way it should? Being a network engineer you feel that way about anything Microsoft puts out."
Comments
Sadly, Seabass, at this very moment I am going to exercise my freewill to come steal your beer. And even sadder to the fact, I'm within driving distance to do it
Oh noes!!!1111!! I guess I should go buy some beer if your going to come steal it. Might want to bring your GF too because you are going to need the extra help, my GF is a Second Degree Black Belt. LOL. Its funny but we might actually meet in RL someday. As long as your not from North Las Vegas. HAHA!
Nah, the nicer part of East. Right near the foot of Sunrise Mountatin, actually. Hell, we have already run into each other! (spooky music). As for your girlfriend helping...I will just tell her you said those pants make her look fat. Then the beer is all mine while she beats you senseless :P
"What is it I have against Microsoft, you ask? Well, you know how you feel when you wait for an MMO to come out and when it does you feel like you've paid to play it's beta test for another 6-9 months before anything even thinks of working the way it should? Being a network engineer you feel that way about anything Microsoft puts out."
LOL i cracked up soooooo much when i heard about that game.. I'm so excited to play it... apparently there's gonna be kililng in the game... In an interview with one of the developers he says they opted to have killing because this is a game that will be a depiction of what the world may be like in the "end of days" So there will be killing...
But i had to laugh because the game was actually featured on the Daily show i think... There was a clip where someone asked about how killing would be handled.. apparently if you kill an innocent you get "negative one spirit points" and if you kill justly you get "2 spirt points" Then Jon steward went on to say "I had no idea the difference between saving a life and taking a life... was.... 3 points".... lol...... this game is gonna rock
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6noMC2ZOKbg&search=this%20week%20god
One neat thing I saw about it was changing the buildings to like a barracks or a bank but it doesn't show as such to the other side. But anyways it just seems kind of... strange... to base a game after a modern religion's future prophecies. At least I think that's what wierd about it (maybe), I still haven't quite figured it out exactly.
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Shall we then hear what you definition of "refute" is, please? Because it's obviously not the same as the standardised definitions. Perhaps I missed the Freethinkerian Dictionary when I was visiting the Library of Congress.
So we will start at step one, anyone have some crayons I can borrow to make it easier for this guy to understand? Anyone? No...oh well.
Define "refute".
"What is it I have against Microsoft, you ask? Well, you know how you feel when you wait for an MMO to come out and when it does you feel like you've paid to play it's beta test for another 6-9 months before anything even thinks of working the way it should? Being a network engineer you feel that way about anything Microsoft puts out."
"What is it I have against Microsoft, you ask? Well, you know how you feel when you wait for an MMO to come out and when it does you feel like you've paid to play it's beta test for another 6-9 months before anything even thinks of working the way it should? Being a network engineer you feel that way about anything Microsoft puts out."
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
"What is it I have against Microsoft, you ask? Well, you know how you feel when you wait for an MMO to come out and when it does you feel like you've paid to play it's beta test for another 6-9 months before anything even thinks of working the way it should? Being a network engineer you feel that way about anything Microsoft puts out."
Read the Wikis. It's not my job to educate you on the world's theories on a gaming forum. Furthermore, that other poster is wearing my patients thin. So go do your own homework..I've already wen't above and beyone linking you to a place to learn about them.
Let's just put it this way, to refute those theories you need to (first, and most importantly) KNOW WHAT THEY ARE. Then it helps to write a book or paper, submit it to a scientific journal, then get it peer reviewed by other scientists. In your paper you should include details on how/why those theories are wrong (this will involve a lot of boring mathematics) then something that explains them better.
good luck with that.
Maybe ToR is a theory because it's backed up by Eiestein.. oh Wait... he had to invent a WHOLE NEW FORM OF MATH for his equations to work...
It can be used to predict accuratley....Goddidit didn't predict jack.
(hint: we didn't send a man to the moon by praying him there)
maybe black holes? Nope... Untestable...
Bigbang?... NOPE unless you have been able to produce an explosion large enough to create the universe... cuz i'd love to see that...
String theory... We dont even know HOW to test it... We barely understand this at all...
sigh...read up on these theories. You are drowning in your own ignorance. If you really feel you can just discount them based on what you PERCIEVE them to be you are wrong. But then again ignorance gives us that comfort, doesn't it? It's so much nicer to say Goddidit.
Waala, a flip of the tounge and we've an answer for everything we don't know about.
Please link here when you've submited your evidences and have come up with a better theory to explain redshift/blueshift, CMBR, particle physics, universal expansion, quantum physics, etc....
oh man.
Now to say Goddidit isn't a theory because it's not testable is the same as denying all those others... Unless of course you have word of some test that shows those things are indeed fact?
Goddidit is not a theory because IT'S NOT SUPPORTED BY EVIDENCE.
Goddidit is conjecture and an Argument from Ignorance to explain something that we...scratch that...YOU don't understand.
What is it with you theists and your strawmen???
EDit: dont even say those tests of ToR.. because those tests are widely debated... stand on a shakey footing... Can be caused by A number of things... Just dont say much about the theory..etc
Wow..what an incredibly convincing argument. "those tests" eh?
*sigh*
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Gah! I don't what the hell is up and why it's repeating everyting 1000 times. Only happens with Freethinker too.
"What is it I have against Microsoft, you ask? Well, you know how you feel when you wait for an MMO to come out and when it does you feel like you've paid to play it's beta test for another 6-9 months before anything even thinks of working the way it should? Being a network engineer you feel that way about anything Microsoft puts out."
^^^^^^
Wahahahahahahahahaha please visit: http://www.mentalillness.com
And, right...as long as it's your own subjective belief and you're not trying to state it as reality to everyone else...you have nothing to prove. I would at least invite you to consider that you may be wrong and read up on what agnosticism/atheism is about. It's really quite freeing...this is coming from someone who raised and believed in the supernatural for 18 years.
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Unfortunately I cannot refute anything right now since this software is opting to repeat anything I put in quotes 20 times or more. Tried it from 4 computers so the issue lay with the forum software.
"What is it I have against Microsoft, you ask? Well, you know how you feel when you wait for an MMO to come out and when it does you feel like you've paid to play it's beta test for another 6-9 months before anything even thinks of working the way it should? Being a network engineer you feel that way about anything Microsoft puts out."
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*sigh*
And no it's not my job to disprove anything... It's the job of the theorist to prove truth.. not the other way around. Lets see Goddidit.. has written accounts of its truth... observations by people... Goddidit also has a pretty big book that has predicted tonnes of things over time.... But it's NOT a theory.. because you of your biased opinion .... Which holds double standards towards other accepted theories..
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
And no it's not my job to disprove anything... It's the job of the theorist to prove truth.. not the other way around. Lets see Goddidit.. has written accounts of its truth... observations by people... Goddidit also has a pretty big book that has predicted tonnes of things over time.... But it's NOT a theory.. because you of your biased opinion .... Which holds double standards towards other accepted theories..
well, you've certainly proved a lot here. incredible. you should just submit this for the nobel prize...i'm sure you'll win.
well..nothing more to debate here.
I'm out...night everyone.
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doublepost...forums are buggy tonight.
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well, you've certainly proved a lot here. incredible. you should just submit this for the nobel prize...i'm sure you'll win.
well..nothing more to debate here.
I'm out...night everyone.
a theory is a systematic and formalized expression of a phenomenon that is observed, predictible , logical and testable. I understand where you say Goddidit isn't a theory... but I find it really interesting that you wouldn't concede to other so called theories not being theories either. Specially when many of the ones i've listed fail to be testable. But you hold that since it's called a "theory" you're not even going to bother looking at what they are... It's ok though...
Anyways since you haven't added anything usefull to my statement besides playful banter.. i guess i have nothing to add either.
PS: yes my magic eight ball has predicted tonnes of things.. Usually they are Bush related
eg: OOOhhhh Magic eight ball.. Is bush going to do something really stupid tomorrow?
M8B: Most certainly...
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
No those aren't the same people who Burnt "witches" at the stake and put anyone to death.... Those are the same people that gave food to the hungry, money to the poor, Stopped people from being stonned to death... Educated people, taught them to read and write... "The world was flat" wasn't a Religious belief.. It was a human belief... The bible was(read I believe) written by man but inspired by God.
so you admit the bible was not penned by god.... at last, do you know our history? and what happend to galileo and what about the courts the sent woman to there painfull deaths thoes very courts were run by the church as for euducating people for hundreds of years the church would not let just anyone learn to read and right it wasent untill henry the 8TH came along and formed the basic laws we have today that it started to change
4000 years from now... We humans will also be "MAY" justified in saying that Albert Einsteins laws were fundamentally flawed because they were written in a time when knowledge was limited. And the truths of the year 2000 have no real relavence to the world in the year 6000... ... You see where i'm going with this?..... There IS no limit to knowledge... We NEVER know the full story...
/mainley agree
So if you're so quick to say that people were stupid in the days of jesus... well you might as well not go to school today cuz people are stupid now compared to the folks in the 60th century.
this is the reason we should go to school and educate ourselfs
Believe it or not there are some things that remain true INdependant of time... one of them could possibly be God... Right? or are you going to tell me with your infinite allllll knowing powerful brain that "THERE IS no God" because you know for a fact everything there is about the world... how it came to be... blah blah
i dont think they is a god where is the evidence? and why are millions of people dieing every years because the rain fails etc (to steel a comment from someone else here) mabe gods too busy showing up in toast to care.
i never said i know it all, i dont and thats part of the joy. but life would be better for everyone if we stood together and learned, rather than divided and failing
Tin Foil hats dont work.. its all a conspiracy
I for one believe in the rapture. I dont believe what someone else told me, its called faith. I"ve studied revelations on my "own" , and with my own interpretation think it will happen. You will never know when. But Jesus gives you signs to look for.
Becareful how you define relativism, the way you're taking it is by far the most limited and limiting approach. There are many ways to deal with relativism especially in philosophy and theism. The only unifiying points of all relativistic viewpoints is that A) Everything is relative to the context it is viewed in, and
No standpoint is uniquely better than all others. Taken to the extreme and out of context this can lead easily to the asummption that murder is okie or stealing is okie, etc... this is also a frequent arguement used against the libertarians when you move from the theistic arena into the political arena.
I'm fairly familiar with dispensationalism, it tends towards the extreme in alot of things which in a general way tends to agitate me, in all honesty dispensationalism tends to hit me as hellfire and brimstone, humans are doomed, and its all washing out kinda way.
Of course however there is the problem of historical accuracy, it's easy to make a prophecy in the past fullfilled for future generations especially with some careful manipulation of historical documents and records during the time peroid in question... and its very hard to disprove, especially this far in the future where our view of those times at best is scattered and broken up badly at best... and even more so since the church itself took to destroying any documents found to be in contradiction of the doctrine it laid before the world.
I just find prophecy in any form interesting to read, in a historical sense (especially pre-printing press) its far to easy to manipulate histroy to be exactly what you want, especially when writing documents after the event. I'm not saying that it entirely invalidates things but it makes past prophecy hard to validate in any meaningful sense and future prophecy tends towards being so vague even taken in a chronological order that almost anyone can validate almost anything with it as fullfilling the event (as happened near the millenium).
Shadus
*twitch* Oh god it hurts.
No, until newton gravity wasn't a lie and elaborate hoax. Newton just put forth a formula and theory about how much energy was required for things to work the way they do... one we largely still use today. He didn't come up with the concept of gravity, before that people weren't idiots. Hell people tried to quantify what gravity was since before the days of Aristotle. If you're going to make up an argument out of thin air at least try to not make yourself sound like a total idiot.
The point the original post was making was simple:
As tools for evaluating our universe get more complex science adjusts itself to compensate for the increase in our knowledge. Theism on the hand says "this is right, this is all that can be right, there is no other way possible." Science can accept that it is wrong and correct itself, theism doesn't have that option.
Compare science at 500 AD and religion at 500 AD.
Compare science of today and religion of today.
Science has evolved and become more advanced, it accepts its flaws and attempts to refine itself to perfection. Regardless of applicability to present day religion tends to hold to the same values it originally held for better or worse.
Shadus
Bravo! Realistically that's about the only arguement that works when faith is involved
Shadus
But honestly I have a problem with the whole idea because if only Christians are good enough to be taken when the rapture comes then who is left to fight for good when the whole good and evil war to end all wars happens?
What I highlighted is the general misconception people have about Christians. As a matter of fact we KNOW we're not "good enough". We know we're undeserving and unworthy of ANYthing from God. If the Rapture occurs that does not mean that all of the "good people" are gone. As Christians, we believe it's grace and grace alone that saves us, nothing we can do can earn our way to God.
There's also a tiny bit of a flaw in your logic of "who would be left to fight." Let's say for arguements sakes that next month 100s of millions of people all disappear. Everyone you've ever known who talks about believing in Jesus is gone. All children and babies are gone. Next you see a man rise to power and promise peace to the world and then even go as far as sign a 7 year treaty with Israel. Then this very same man is killed and raises himself from the dead and pronounces himself as god. Don't you think there are going to be people who've heard the stories, read Revelations (or at the very least grabs a Bible immediately and reads Revelations that moment) and starts to put 2 and 2 together? In essence that is what thing like the Rapture Letters are all about. "If this happens, IF the Bible might be right, IF all those people you heard in your life that talked about Jesus being their savoir are gone then you might want to stop and think about it all."
Certianly if everything that I mentioned above happens there will be people who will believe in this man who has risen to power, promises peace, and declares himself god when he rises from the dead. On the other hand there are religions OTHER than Christianity that will give the big ol' "Uh uh...no you didn't!" reaction. Judiasm and Islam are two religions that very quickly would resist this man.
Also, to answer your question of who would be left to fight with Biblical answers. The Bibles tells of 144,000 jews, 12,000 each from the 12 tribes, that would becomes great witnesses. These are called Messianic Jews and what a force to be reckoned with would they be. The Bible itself tells us that an "inumearble number" would be saved. That has to be a MASSIVE number since in the very same book of the Bible number a demonic army as 200 million and the Antichrist's army of Armeggedon at 600 million. So if some is "inumerable" it would lead one to believe that it is probably more than 600 million at the very least. Probably somewhere to the tune of 1,000,000,000 people would come to Christ in those end times. There is who would be standing up to the Antichrist along with God.
"What is it I have against Microsoft, you ask? Well, you know how you feel when you wait for an MMO to come out and when it does you feel like you've paid to play it's beta test for another 6-9 months before anything even thinks of working the way it should? Being a network engineer you feel that way about anything Microsoft puts out."