Originally posted by Tenk575 ... there will never be one, all mmos are easy.. the only true mark of skill is how u can allow urself to play a game for long periods of time to gain an edge on players.. give me a break..
Define 'skill'.
Is skill the ability to put a targeting cursor on something faster than someone else? Is it the ability to outmanoeuvre your opponent? Is it the ability to know when to run & when to fight? Is it the ability to direct your gang-mates? Is it the ability to out-psyche your opponent? To find a better mix of equipment?
To me it's all of the above & more, and most MMOs have at least some of those elements.
Originally posted by spizz Originally posted by nthnaoun Originally posted by Tenk575 ... there will never be one, all mmos are easy.. the only true mark of skill is how u can allow urself to play a game for long periods of time to gain an edge on players.. give me a break..
MMORPG's are not meant to be based on player skill, hence why they are RPG's. They are meant to be based on the stats, character skills, and armor/weapons you have.
What you are looking for is a FPS game. FPS games require player skill, because you need to dodge if you don't want to get hit and aim if you want to shoot.
I enjoy both, but I know what to expect when I pick up a game. I don't pick up a MMORPG thinking that it will take player skill to defeat a monster.
Well, if the devs would think so one sided no wonder new games dont have any progress and are always the same. There should be no fixed rules how nowadays mmorpgs should look like or what content and gameplay. An mmorpg can have also parts of the FPS genre and there are tons ideas to combine that. The problem is probably that too many devs only hear to the mainstream and the old mmorpg ideas, for a golden future we need new devs and customers with an more open mind to find out new ideas. Just imagine you have an mmorpg with quests, character development but the combat depends on your own skills with the mouse and keyboard..that would be something new and would get new fresh air in the quiete old mmorpg world.
I would rather stop and think about what action to take next than to use reflexes. Turn based combat appeals to the thinkers and twitch based combat appeals mostly to the action oriented crowd. As people get older, their reflexes slow down. Therefore, kids will always have the upper hand, because most "real" careers depend more on thinking than on reflexes, while kids are at home playing video games that improve their reflex capabilities. I find the turn based combat enjoyable as do a lot of others, which is why it has lasted this long and is the mainstream for RPG's. FPS action is fun if it employs all aspects of the FPS genre, the First Person view, dodging, aiming, jumping, and being a solid avatar instead of something someone can run through.
But normally I would leave reflexes to real life where there isn't just a bunch of clicking. Such as boxing, martial arts, fencing, tennis and etc. That stuff is more fun to me than a reflex oriented game. If I am playing a game I want to think about what I am going to do next. Even if the allotted time to think is only a second.
Originally posted by spizz Just imagine you have an mmorpg with quests, character development but the combat depends on your own skills with the mouse and keyboard..that would be something new and would get new fresh air in the quiete old mmorpg world.
i wouldnt play. i dont want to rely on my own hand eye coordination. i want to rely on my character's hand eye coordination. that is why i play, to roleplay a character, not to use my own habilities on a computer generated character. i want to be him/her, as much as i can. so even though i may need glasses on real life, a can be a very good archer on a game, just becuase my character has a hig perception and agility, not me.
and even though i am not very hard or strong, i can roleplay a heavy fighter, incredibly strong, able to use a big sword on hand hand a big shield on the other, even though i myself cant even help from cutting myself while using a knife.
and with magic it is even more ridiculous. what do you want? people dancing and shouting on their rooms to cast a spell? come on... its a roleplaying game. you play your character, not yourself.
this is the reason i loved Baldur's GAte games, and didnt play too much morrowind (even though it is a very good game)
Well everyone has a different taste, but iam tired of these automatic combat games and play them very seldom in the last time. if there will be not really integrated new ideas in the mmorpg market and stay like the games came out this year and in in the past, i guess thats it for me. iam more the type to get more exited about new content and ideas instead of old and tested game content or rules, i speak in genral and not only about the idea to implement personal skill in combat. but well, you would not play such a game and i played all the games since there were no choice hehe except fps or sim mmopgs and those are still my favourites.
Originally posted by Lexxie Originally posted by Tenk575 ... there will never be one, all mmos are easy.. the only true mark of skill is how u can allow urself to play a game for long periods of time to gain an edge on players.. give me a break..
Define 'skill'.
Is skill the ability to put a targeting cursor on something faster than someone else?
Yes. This is called eye to hand coordination. You can find this when playing FPS games and when microing in RTS games.
Is it the ability to outmanoeuvre your opponent?
Yes this is called dodging in FPS games, and called microing in RTS games(dancing)
Is it the ability to know when to run & when to fight?
Yes this is when you retreat back to another place to gain superior enviroment in fps games. This is also when you are loosing a battle in an RTS game and you know that you have to retreat in order to cut loses.
Is it the ability to direct your gang-mates?
Yes, this is how you syncronize tactics in FPS games and how you arrange units and overall tactics in RTS games.
Is it the ability to out-psyche your opponent?
?. If this means figuring out his move before doing then yes. In FPS(mostly CS) if you have a high enough gaming IQ, you can often figure out if somebody is waiting around the corner or attacking. In RTS you can often guess which tactic then enemy is using based on different signs(rush, base built, units and so on)
To find a better mix of equipment?
Sometimes. Depends on the depth of the game. It's a depth most MMOs doesn't have.
To me it's all of the above & more, and most MMOs have at least some of those elements.
If there's a high depth in the game, equipment and character built can require skill(guild wars because of the 8 skill limit), it might require some skill. But removing the twitch factor is like removing micro from RTS games(thus leaving base and unit building left) and adding aimbot in FPS games(Have the best weapon/best enviroment/situation)
As you can see, I'm still waiting for a MMO that requires skill. Age of Conan might be this. Real time combat, equipment not that fantastically important, player based formation in huge battles. Till then I'll play FPS and RTS games for my "skill-fix"
As you can see, I'm still waiting for a MMO that requires skill. Age of Conan might be this. Real time combat, equipment not that fantastically important, player based formation in huge battles. Till then I'll play FPS and RTS games for my "skill-fix"
Have you tried DDO? Many people say it's not a good game and etc, but I live by the try it yourself policy. It offers twitch based combat, and the many other things other MMORPG's offer, plus you are solid (ie. a tank can actually stop the mob from getting the mage by stepping in front of it).
Originally posted by nthnaoun Originally posted by Jackcolt As you can see, I'm still waiting for a MMO that requires skill. Age of Conan might be this. Real time combat, equipment not that fantastically important, player based formation in huge battles. Till then I'll play FPS and RTS games for my "skill-fix"
Have you tried DDO? Many people say it's not a good game and etc, but I live by the try it yourself policy. It offers twitch based combat, and the many other things other MMORPG's offer, plus you are solid (ie. a tank can actually stop the mob from getting the mage by stepping in front of it). Yeah. I found combat to be funny and required somewhat decent skills, but the rest of the game was lackluster.
Originally posted by Tenk575 ... there will never be one, all mmos are easy.. the only true mark of skill is how u can allow urself to play a game for long periods of time to gain an edge on players.. give me a break..
any game that allows you to build/control areas/cities/etc and has pvp in order to keep said areas (it should go without saying that death carries lootable penalties at the least) would require skill in
1 managing the clan and it's resources 2 taking to the field of battle as a general/marshall/admiral 3 negotiating treaties of peace with your neighbors and forging *reliable* alliances with other clans in order to strengthen your position and hold your area 4 proper delegation of duties throughout the clan so that everyone DOES feel needed and useful
in many games, the actual skill comes by way of interaction with the people in your clan.
for example, the last clan i was in, in a very popular game, the clan boss did nothing but rant and rave and whine and cry because X members of Y class wouldn't sign up for the big raid a week before the raid was scheduled. which in turn pissed off people time and again so that they wouldn't sign up for it or go. this was countered by taking in every tom, dick, and harry that would apply to the clan so that the clan's numbers maxed and then it didn't matter -- you'd have enough to do the raids and he'd find something else to whine and cry about. kriegherren... ahh the memories of stupidity there, lemme tell ya.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Well everyone has a different taste, but iam tired of these automatic combat games and play them very seldom in the last time. if there will be not really integrated new ideas in the mmorpg market and stay like the games came out this year and in in the past, i guess thats it for me. iam more the type to get more exited about new content and ideas instead of old and tested game content or rules, i speak in genral and not only about the idea to implement personal skill in combat. but well, you would not play such a game and i played all the games since there were no choice hehe except fps or sim mmopgs and those are still my favourites. Spizz give Tcos a quick look, looks like it has the combat you are talking about.
Game that required most skill in my experience involved me being on town militia and sitting in front of cantina in swg. Trying to correctly copy down random name generator spawned monikers of credit farmers while at the same time citybanning and composing letter to GM without disrupting my beer-drinking and nacho-eating rhythm was an exercise in dazzling mental acuity.
*stares at the person who want's true skill* If ye want a challange on one of teh games, then thy should try out teh cyberpunk mmorpg called Neocron 2: domes of New York, teh game will give you a little bit of challange for yeh if ya old and mature e'nough to play teh game. *goes back to the shadows*
Much like many of us would like a forum were ALL CAPS in titles are not allowed, a pure skill MMORPG is never going to happen due to the simple fact that it would then no longer be a MMORPG, as it is defined today.
Pure skill games can have, ironicly, no skills, as in character skills, it can have no items that are not equally availably to everyone, and easily obtainable, as running over it in Quake or buying it at start in CS.
No levels, no gear, no skills and voilá you have something that allready exists in abundance, FPS/RTS or even sports games.
Personally I play FPS's for my need to contest against others, to put my wits, tactics and reflexes against another human opponent.
I play MMO's for storyline, progression, exploration and socializing, mostly in that order.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Tenk575 ... there will never be one, all mmos are easy.. the only true mark of skill is how u can allow urself to play a game for long periods of time to gain an edge on players.. give me a break..
Comments
Is skill the ability to put a targeting cursor on something faster than someone else? Is it the ability to outmanoeuvre your opponent? Is it the ability to know when to run & when to fight? Is it the ability to direct your gang-mates? Is it the ability to out-psyche your opponent? To find a better mix of equipment?
To me it's all of the above & more, and most MMOs have at least some of those elements.
MMORPG's are not meant to be based on player skill, hence why they are RPG's. They are meant to be based on the stats, character skills, and armor/weapons you have.
What you are looking for is a FPS game. FPS games require player skill, because you need to dodge if you don't want to get hit and aim if you want to shoot.
I enjoy both, but I know what to expect when I pick up a game. I don't pick up a MMORPG thinking that it will take player skill to defeat a monster.
Well, if the devs would think so one sided no wonder new games dont have any progress and are always the same. There should be no fixed rules how nowadays mmorpgs should look like or what content and gameplay. An mmorpg can have also parts of the FPS genre and there are tons ideas to combine that. The problem is probably that too many devs only hear to the mainstream and the old mmorpg ideas, for a golden future we need new devs and customers with an more open mind to find out new ideas. Just imagine you have an mmorpg with quests, character development but the combat depends on your own skills with the mouse and keyboard..that would be something new and would get new fresh air in the quiete old mmorpg world.
I would rather stop and think about what action to take next than to use reflexes. Turn based combat appeals to the thinkers and twitch based combat appeals mostly to the action oriented crowd. As people get older, their reflexes slow down. Therefore, kids will always have the upper hand, because most "real" careers depend more on thinking than on reflexes, while kids are at home playing video games that improve their reflex capabilities. I find the turn based combat enjoyable as do a lot of others, which is why it has lasted this long and is the mainstream for RPG's. FPS action is fun if it employs all aspects of the FPS genre, the First Person view, dodging, aiming, jumping, and being a solid avatar instead of something someone can run through.
But normally I would leave reflexes to real life where there isn't just a bunch of clicking. Such as boxing, martial arts, fencing, tennis and etc. That stuff is more fun to me than a reflex oriented game. If I am playing a game I want to think about what I am going to do next. Even if the allotted time to think is only a second.
i wouldnt play. i dont want to rely on my own hand eye coordination. i want to rely on my character's hand eye coordination. that is why i play, to roleplay a character, not to use my own habilities on a computer generated character. i want to be him/her, as much as i can. so even though i may need glasses on real life, a can be a very good archer on a game, just becuase my character has a hig perception and agility, not me.
and even though i am not very hard or strong, i can roleplay a heavy fighter, incredibly strong, able to use a big sword on hand hand a big shield on the other, even though i myself cant even help from cutting myself while using a knife.
and with magic it is even more ridiculous. what do you want? people dancing and shouting on their rooms to cast a spell? come on... its a roleplaying game. you play your character, not yourself.
this is the reason i loved Baldur's GAte games, and didnt play too much morrowind (even though it is a very good game)
Well everyone has a different taste, but iam tired of these automatic combat games and play them very seldom in the last time. if there will be not really integrated new ideas in the mmorpg market and stay like the games came out this year and in in the past, i guess thats it for me. iam more the type to get more exited about new content and ideas instead of old and tested game content or rules, i speak in genral and not only about the idea to implement personal skill in combat. but well, you would not play such a game and i played all the games since there were no choice hehe except fps or sim mmopgs and those are still my favourites.
Is skill the ability to put a targeting cursor on something faster than someone else?
Yes. This is called eye to hand coordination. You can find this when playing FPS games and when microing in RTS games.
Is it the ability to outmanoeuvre your opponent?
Yes this is called dodging in FPS games, and called microing in RTS games(dancing)
Is it the ability to know when to run & when to fight?
Yes this is when you retreat back to another place to gain superior enviroment in fps games. This is also when you are loosing a battle in an RTS game and you know that you have to retreat in order to cut loses.
Is it the ability to direct your gang-mates?
Yes, this is how you syncronize tactics in FPS games and how you arrange units and overall tactics in RTS games.
Is it the ability to out-psyche your opponent?
?. If this means figuring out his move before doing then yes. In FPS(mostly CS) if you have a high enough gaming IQ, you can often figure out if somebody is waiting around the corner or attacking. In RTS you can often guess which tactic then enemy is using based on different signs(rush, base built, units and so on)
To find a better mix of equipment?
Sometimes. Depends on the depth of the game. It's a depth most MMOs doesn't have.
To me it's all of the above & more, and most MMOs have at least some of those elements.
If there's a high depth in the game, equipment and character built can require skill(guild wars because of the 8 skill limit), it might require some skill. But removing the twitch factor is like removing micro from RTS games(thus leaving base and unit building left) and adding aimbot in FPS games(Have the best weapon/best enviroment/situation)
As you can see, I'm still waiting for a MMO that requires skill. Age of Conan might be this. Real time combat, equipment not that fantastically important, player based formation in huge battles. Till then I'll play FPS and RTS games for my "skill-fix"
Have you tried DDO? Many people say it's not a good game and etc, but I live by the try it yourself policy. It offers twitch based combat, and the many other things other MMORPG's offer, plus you are solid (ie. a tank can actually stop the mob from getting the mage by stepping in front of it).
Yeah. I found combat to be funny and required somewhat decent skills, but the rest of the game was lackluster.
1 managing the clan and it's resources
2 taking to the field of battle as a general/marshall/admiral
3 negotiating treaties of peace with your neighbors and forging *reliable* alliances with other clans in order to strengthen your position and hold your area
4 proper delegation of duties throughout the clan so that everyone DOES feel needed and useful
in many games, the actual skill comes by way of interaction with the people in your clan.
for example, the last clan i was in, in a very popular game, the clan boss did nothing but rant and rave and whine and cry because X members of Y class wouldn't sign up for the big raid a week before the raid was scheduled. which in turn pissed off people time and again so that they wouldn't sign up for it or go. this was countered by taking in every tom, dick, and harry that would apply to the clan so that the clan's numbers maxed and then it didn't matter -- you'd have enough to do the raids and he'd find something else to whine and cry about. kriegherren... ahh the memories of stupidity there, lemme tell ya.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Spizz give Tcos a quick look, looks like it has the combat you are talking about.
Much like many of us would like a forum were ALL CAPS in titles are not allowed, a pure skill MMORPG is never going to happen due to the simple fact that it would then no longer be a MMORPG, as it is defined today.
Pure skill games can have, ironicly, no skills, as in character skills, it can have no items that are not equally availably to everyone, and easily obtainable, as running over it in Quake or buying it at start in CS.
No levels, no gear, no skills and voilá you have something that allready exists in abundance, FPS/RTS or even sports games.
Personally I play FPS's for my need to contest against others, to put my wits, tactics and reflexes against another human opponent.
I play MMO's for storyline, progression, exploration and socializing, mostly in that order.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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