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3 reasons Why SWG as a game failed.
Makestro
Member Posts: 218
#1. They introduced a class in the game that was ment to be more powerful then all the others, since SWG was pretty much a small group/solo game, this appleaed to everyone else... even if it fit into character. Of course I'm taling about jedi.... as weak as they may have been post-cu vs melee it's stil lthe pve factor i;m taling about.
#2. SoE/LA are copying other games in the hopes it will atract players of those gamaes... the reason most of us left was because when we asked for a combat revamp, we expected DoT weapons, "uber" gear, and over powered abilities to be scaled into a more balacing form so no class was really dominate, although te CU sorta accomplised it, it changed the game completely.
#3. Chaging a setting the people where comfy with once is kinda, understandable... but not in how drastic it was fomr pre-cu to post-cu, doing it twice, will just ruin peoples hopes...
Not many people have faith in the devs view of how the game should take part
This is biased, I just wish SoE would make a pre-cu server so I could play a game i love, isntead of playing WoW holding onto my memories of the most perfect game i ever played... long live pre-cu SWG
#2. SoE/LA are copying other games in the hopes it will atract players of those gamaes... the reason most of us left was because when we asked for a combat revamp, we expected DoT weapons, "uber" gear, and over powered abilities to be scaled into a more balacing form so no class was really dominate, although te CU sorta accomplised it, it changed the game completely.
#3. Chaging a setting the people where comfy with once is kinda, understandable... but not in how drastic it was fomr pre-cu to post-cu, doing it twice, will just ruin peoples hopes...
Not many people have faith in the devs view of how the game should take part
This is biased, I just wish SoE would make a pre-cu server so I could play a game i love, isntead of playing WoW holding onto my memories of the most perfect game i ever played... long live pre-cu SWG
www.scarybadguys.com
Comments
1) They took away player acomplishments. The first rule of MMORPGs is not to take away acomplishments.
2) They took away player acomplishments. The first rule of MMORPGs is not to take away acomplishments.
3) Systems were release in their first incarnation (Raph's statement). They were never even remotely playtested or balanced. They were never fixed, issues were never addressed. SWG was prototype game. Not even alpha or beta.
1.We ordered beef but got lamb instead, it wasn't what we ordered but we liked the taste nonetheless and were happy with our lot. The service was pretty good, there were generous servings and the taste was good
2.They said "we are working on bringing you the beef" but one day they announced "As from next week we are scrapping all beef plans and will be serving chicken instead", the chicken wasn't too bad so a lot of people stuck around since we all pretty much liked chicken.
3.Finally they announced that due to research into eating habits they "will be serving soya chunks instead of meat since it's mass appeal will attract meat eaters and vegetarians alike". They then proceeded to remove all chicken orders and cancelled the chicken special deals they had advertised for the past month. Portions looked a lot smaller and the waiter service got replaced by a fast-food outlet style counter, the table-cloths and cutlery got replaced by plastic-moulded furniture and sporks.
They are now working on bringing you lamb-flavoured soya chunks.
I've given up waiting for beef but I'll gladly settle for the lamb again.
I am very hungry right now, hence the food analogy.
Too many bugs and exploits early on. Not only too many. but the devs never fixed anything, just nerf, nerf. Too many knee jerk reactions by the devs. Someone complained, a profession was nerfed. To me the game was a failure from the start. I know a lot of you liked the game, and that's great. I'm just saying a lot of people were turned off by someone these things. I went back at different times and it was rare to see anyone at all.
Then the two big "upgrades" pushed the nail all the way in.
So I guess number one would be: Listened to the fans ways too much. Too quick to change a game on complaints from a small vocal crowd.
Number two: Didn't listen to the fans at all. Totally changed the game for the small crowd they had left.
2. O
3. E
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
1.# Jedi was a great idea as a reward with risk.. by all means it was not for everyone. That can be argued but the fact remains that was a good idea. It is always people that did not get one back then that use that as a excuse most of the time. Again Risk vs Reward --- if done right. It was a great endgame goal to have and experience (Until they fucked it all up). After pub-10 for the masses I can't be clear on it. I think keeping it hard and risky was the best idea. Seems like now so does everyone else.
2# Agree.. but there seemed to be some people involved that should not have been.. *cough* Marketing..Nancy.. etc..
3# Agree, Raph and every other programmer, or gamer I think has stated this -- I mean crap, IF THE GAMES CREATOR ACTUALLY SAYS, "YOU SHOULD NOT DO THIS"... Then you have to wonder what fool said , "Naa we can do this" -- Helios- *cough* Monkeyboy.......... *cough*...
**4** Let's also not forget ALL THE BROKEN PROMISES in between, because in the end that is what this is one big broken promise and commitment. (Funny thing is that we had to pay for it)..lol
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
There is only one reason why it failed: SOE lost it's original vision.
The reasons why it failed don't really matter; what matters is the the fact that SWG is a failure in the eyes of game companies.
What does it mean?
Probably we will not see another game like it for a very long time. Which is too bad because SWG had massive potential.
It was the potential of the game that kept many of us playing.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
But see some of this could have been fixed then.... people going for Jedi, nothing wrong with that.. but if they had thought of things or addressed them as they happend etc.. I could not use macros as they drove me nuts most of the time.. so It was not a issue for me. BUT if they had changed or altered the way you could use them etc..
Even after the Village people were still AFK in Cantinas, I think pretty much that just happend. With some fixes and making it harder as it grew instead of easier I think Jedi would have been a great end game reward, keeping it rare, hard to get, hidden, earned and at least with more respect then a nuna.
I witnessed going from somthing that people offered to help, be very kind to and decent to into somthing SPIT ON, hated disrespected and now made into nothing more then a clicking joke of a class. In a way it is full circle, going from good to bad in 3 years. I do feel for the clicky Jedi though, they have no idea what it was like and how much better it was but I am not sure how many of them would have made it in the old ways if that was the case.
Jedi is part of Star Wars, we all cannot deny that but keeping them in check is where this all went wrong... not sure exactly why other then possibly marketing and gaming changed this.
The Christmas of the holocron is when I have never seen the game so full, people everywhere... selling and shouting... etc. So I understand what your saying but one thing Jedi did was add people to the game.. SOE just handled it wrong -on it's path.. Just because they make somthing easier to get did NOT make it better.
*As we can tell now* --- risk vs reward, it works if you have a choice.
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
But see some of this could have been fixed then.... people going for Jedi, nothing wrong with that.. but if they had thought of things or addressed them as they happend etc.. I could not use macros as they drove me nuts most of the time.. so It was not a issue for me. BUT if they had changed or altered the way you could use them etc..
Even after the Village people were still AFK in Cantinas, I think pretty much that just happend. With some fixes and making it harder as it grew instead of easier I think Jedi would have been a great end game reward, keeping it rare, hard to get, hidden, earned and at least with more respect then a nuna.
I witnessed going from somthing that people offered to help, be very kind to and decent to into somthing SPIT ON, hated disrespected and now made into nothing more then a clicking joke of a class. In a way it is full circle, going from good to bad in 3 years. I do feel for the clicky Jedi though, they have no idea what it was like and how much better it was but I am not sure how many of them would have made it in the old ways if that was the case.
Jedi is part of Star Wars, we all cannot deny that but keeping them in check is where this all went wrong... not sure exactly why other then possibly marketing and gaming changed this.
The Christmas of the holocron is when I have never seen the game so full, people everywhere... selling and shouting... etc. So I understand what your saying but one thing Jedi did was add people to the game.. SOE just handled it wrong on it's path.. Just because that make somthing easier to get did NOT make it better.
*As we can tell now* --- risk vs reward, it works if you have a choice.
I'd like to ask how you figure Jedi added poeple to the game, from all accounts the more Jedi there were in-game the less subs there were.
I'm not saying it was the Jedi per-se that caused this (I, like you, think the original rare/risky Jedi idea was fine), but the chase for Jedi is what killed it. People, once they found out how, dropped their crafting, their PvPing, and other things to chase the Jedi dream. For those of us left, that wanted something else, the community, the integral professions that made the world work, fell apart really fast. Long-time armorsmith and weaponsmith shops closed (chasing the Jedi), Cantina's weren't empty, but they were full of AFK dancer/musician bots (chasing the Jedi), Medical centers were empty (chasing the Jedi macroing healing off a guy spamming specials), Tailors shops closed (chasing the Jedi). That was the first big lurch in the game, the holocron craze, it nearly broke the game right then.
After that, the more Jedi there were, the more people logged out in disgust. PvP became a Jedi-or-don't-PvP game. PvE was a joke. The community was really fragmented from grinding. Guilds fell apart as everyone was mastering this profession or that instead of doing things together.
Problems with Pre-CU went unfixed by developers who catered more and more to the Jedi issues (overpowered/underpowered/new path to Jedi). All the while the subs sank.
They should have left Jedi as an unknown path with lots of risk like it originally was. Would have saved the game if they had just done that. The other problems with Pre-CU could have been fixed over time.
Temploiter
WDMKR | Incarnate
But see some of this could have been fixed then.... people going for Jedi, nothing wrong with that.. but if they had thought of things or addressed them as they happend etc.. I could not use macros as they drove me nuts most of the time.. so It was not a issue for me. BUT if they had changed or altered the way you could use them etc..
Even after the Village people were still AFK in Cantinas, I think pretty much that just happend. With some fixes and making it harder as it grew instead of easier I think Jedi would have been a great end game reward, keeping it rare, hard to get, hidden, earned and at least with more respect then a nuna.
I witnessed going from somthing that people offered to help, be very kind to and decent to into somthing SPIT ON, hated disrespected and now made into nothing more then a clicking joke of a class. In a way it is full circle, going from good to bad in 3 years. I do feel for the clicky Jedi though, they have no idea what it was like and how much better it was but I am not sure how many of them would have made it in the old ways if that was the case.
Jedi is part of Star Wars, we all cannot deny that but keeping them in check is where this all went wrong... not sure exactly why other then possibly marketing and gaming changed this.
The Christmas of the holocron is when I have never seen the game so full, people everywhere... selling and shouting... etc. So I understand what your saying but one thing Jedi did was add people to the game.. SOE just handled it wrong on it's path.. Just because that make somthing easier to get did NOT make it better.
*As we can tell now* --- risk vs reward, it works if you have a choice.
I'd like to ask how you figure Jedi added poeple to the game, from all accounts the more Jedi there were in-game the less subs there were.
I'm not saying it was the Jedi per-se that caused this (I, like you, think the original rare/risky Jedi idea was fine), but the chase for Jedi is what killed it. People, once they found out how, dropped their crafting, their PvPing, and other things to chase the Jedi dream. For those of us left, that wanted something else, the community, the integral professions that made the world work, fell apart really fast. Long-time armorsmith and weaponsmith shops closed (chasing the Jedi), Cantina's weren't empty, but they were full of AFK dancer/musician bots (chasing the Jedi), Medical centers were empty (chasing the Jedi macroing healing off a guy spamming specials), Tailors shops closed (chasing the Jedi). That was the first big lurch in the game, the holocron craze, it nearly broke the game right then.
After that, the more Jedi there were, the more people logged out in disgust. PvP became a Jedi-or-don't-PvP game. PvE was a joke. The community was really fragmented from grinding. Guilds fell apart as everyone was mastering this profession or that instead of doing things together.
Problems with Pre-CU went unfixed by developers who catered more and more to the Jedi issues (overpowered/underpowered/new path to Jedi). All the while the subs sank.
They should have left Jedi as an unknown path with lots of risk like it originally was. Would have saved the game if they had just done that. The other problems with Pre-CU could have been fixed over time.
I should have been more clear.. sorry (AT THE LAUNCH of the first Jedi seen) -- I think more subs came in then... I actually think the game took in a increase of players after the first 3 months then changed again there after. I do remember seeing a surge of players once Jedi was found in the game -- But that is when we had astrometric stats and were able to see how many people were doing what profs etc..
Boy if anything that would give some stats compared to now.
I agree they should have left Jedi alone, keep it hard etc.. I know that alot of people quit Jedi as they thought it was hard in the post 10 days... I mean that alone tells you how that filtered out.
I do wish Jedi was forced into more Dark vs Light PvP -- it was really meant to be more that way with the FRS but as we all saw that did not work right.
But again, I agree there is nothing wrong with having the Alpha class as long as there is checks in place.
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Yay, another Jedi killed the game thread.
/yawn
While I think that the original hologrind system was uninspired and idiotic, I am a firm believer that the single subject that separates Star Wars from any other science fiction franchise is Jedi. I believe that if the game had no way of becoming a jedi character, they would not have had anywhere near as many subscriptions as they did have.
So, here is my opinion regarding what caused the most damage to the game. Lack of focus and mismanagement. They massively changed the game mechanics twice in under a year. This is never a good thing for a MMORPG as it leads to people doubting the stability of the game.
They were hard to get because of mastering professions. The holo grind that so many people complain about wasn't as damaging as many people think. It really helped many people learn more about the game by mastering more and more professions. Many people, once they mastered a profession, needed to make some money with it before moving to the next. People learned about more of the game and often found a profession they loved that they never would have tried without hologrinding.
It also got to the point of being elusive. After a few holocrons, it wouldn't tell you anymore, so you just had to guess. At that point, the goal was unknown, so it was easier to give up in frustration. You might have to master all 32, or any one in between could do it.
Grinding jedi was harder. With saber TEF and permadeath, a grinding jedi had to be MUCH more careful.
After Pub-9, the risk was gone. Losing some XP was NOT a risk. Permadeath was a risk. Without the risk, the reward became unbalanced. With Pub 10, the unlock mechanism became easier. Yes, it took a lot of XP to grind, but you didn't have to change and learn new professions over and over. You could stay with your preferred professions (or grind grenades) and it was easy to see exactly how many XP exchanges you'd need to get to the goal. Often, being able to measure the distance to the goal, makes it easier to continue. Pub 10 really did make it easier to get. That's when the Jedi population really exploded.
OK, that's my rant on jedi.
Now, on the moron devs.
Often people try to blame the players for whining too much causing the nerfs. As I always say, the devs should have known better than to listen to all the whining.
Now, here's what I think the problem was. After Raph was moved off SWG, and they finished adding player cities and JTL, which was planned before launch, they didn't know what else to do. From that point on they had no real vision, no real direction. So, when management came in to find out what they were doing, they grabbed the first thing they saw and proudly announced, "Bounty Hunter is overpowered, we will balance it in line with the others." This seemed to work really well to cover their lack of direction, so they kept it up whenever they needed a last minute plan. It was a slacker way out.
It all comes back to the devs not doing their jobs. Not fixing bugs or adding decent content. They didn't really have anyone in a position to push things through and get the dev team to work on what needed to be done. It's like they had the coders, and then there was management who was so far removed from the game they didn't know what was going on.
Somewhere management really screwed up. Either the person(s) in that role was a total yes man with no balls, or there wasn't anyone in the appropriate lead position to get things going.
Either way, all we got was knee-jerk reactions and no direction.
SWG Tempest: Cardo Dycen RIP
Eve: Cardoh Dycen
I support random drug testing for all SOE employees
uber armor
uber buffs
-virtual tourist
want your game back?
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2. too much emphasis on crafting, meaning no phat loot and too much decay
3. overoptimistic and complex design, some systems were not ready at release, and a simple system was pushed out and the fix for those systems came too late (jedi, smuggler)
1: They never have and never will concentrate on fixing the bugs first.
2: They never have and never will, nor do they have the desire to understand their own customers.
3: John Smedley
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
But see some of this could have been fixed then.... people going for Jedi, nothing wrong with that.. but if they had thought of things or addressed them as they happend etc.. I could not use macros as they drove me nuts most of the time.. so It was not a issue for me. BUT if they had changed or altered the way you could use them etc..
Even after the Village people were still AFK in Cantinas, I think pretty much that just happend. With some fixes and making it harder as it grew instead of easier I think Jedi would have been a great end game reward, keeping it rare, hard to get, hidden, earned and at least with more respect then a nuna.
I witnessed going from somthing that people offered to help, be very kind to and decent to into somthing SPIT ON, hated disrespected and now made into nothing more then a clicking joke of a class. In a way it is full circle, going from good to bad in 3 years. I do feel for the clicky Jedi though, they have no idea what it was like and how much better it was but I am not sure how many of them would have made it in the old ways if that was the case.
Jedi is part of Star Wars, we all cannot deny that but keeping them in check is where this all went wrong... not sure exactly why other then possibly marketing and gaming changed this.
The Christmas of the holocron is when I have never seen the game so full, people everywhere... selling and shouting... etc. So I understand what your saying but one thing Jedi did was add people to the game.. SOE just handled it wrong on it's path.. Just because that make somthing easier to get did NOT make it better.
*As we can tell now* --- risk vs reward, it works if you have a choice.
I'd like to ask how you figure Jedi added poeple to the game, from all accounts the more Jedi there were in-game the less subs there were.
I'm not saying it was the Jedi per-se that caused this (I, like you, think the original rare/risky Jedi idea was fine), but the chase for Jedi is what killed it. People, once they found out how, dropped their crafting, their PvPing, and other things to chase the Jedi dream. For those of us left, that wanted something else, the community, the integral professions that made the world work, fell apart really fast. Long-time armorsmith and weaponsmith shops closed (chasing the Jedi), Cantina's weren't empty, but they were full of AFK dancer/musician bots (chasing the Jedi), Medical centers were empty (chasing the Jedi macroing healing off a guy spamming specials), Tailors shops closed (chasing the Jedi). That was the first big lurch in the game, the holocron craze, it nearly broke the game right then.
After that, the more Jedi there were, the more people logged out in disgust. PvP became a Jedi-or-don't-PvP game. PvE was a joke. The community was really fragmented from grinding. Guilds fell apart as everyone was mastering this profession or that instead of doing things together.
Problems with Pre-CU went unfixed by developers who catered more and more to the Jedi issues (overpowered/underpowered/new path to Jedi). All the while the subs sank.
They should have left Jedi as an unknown path with lots of risk like it originally was. Would have saved the game if they had just done that. The other problems with Pre-CU could have been fixed over time.
Your 100% right and it was the beginning of the end. I had 6 close friends playing at this time and everyone dropped what they were doing for the holo grind. I was a master architect and my business came to a stand still during this phase.
One thing I would like to point out though is I think the holo grind also was so big cause most were already on their last straw with SWG. The game had lack of content and so many bugs for a game that had been out for that long. I felt it was a gimmick to keep everyone around longer while they tried to think of the next money making move.
Anyway I did love the business side in SWG it's to bad they couldn't get the combat side of this game right it could have been huge.
The big one...
SOE listning to a small number of vocal players... Nerf this Nerf that he to powerfull.. I want jedi but dont wont to work for it... This xp lost sucks.... His pets are to powerfull.. I want uber buffs... Crafting is to hard....Who wants to wait for months for a good spwn so i can make da l33t weapons....I dont want to spend a few mins geting my Bf cured this sucks!!
The players are the reason we got the CU...The players are the reason we got NGE...
The players are to blame and soe/la for listing to them.
If soe would of said fuck them and worked on but slowy improved the sytem we had it would have been one heck of a game.....
A gloom time for MMO's atm with every new one going down the rotue of lvl tank/healer/nuker
I understand what you are trying to say, but you are wrong. SOE did say screw 'em to the veteren players. They pushed the NGE forward when they knew that it would upset their current players. They did this because they thought they could replace the veteren players with new ones. This was the whole point behind the NGE, and was even admitted as such by Smed (though in prettier corporate speak).
They pushed the NGE After they where forced to do the CU(by LA so called giving players what they want...) in a last ditch to save the game...
Both so called improvement have failed..
The time/staff/money/testing the CU&NGE took we could of had some balance more plannets more instant more quests, more items
For a start Nerfing 90%+ armoure would have been a big step towards balance
1. No Stars.
2. No wars.
3. No Star Wars.
Zoso makes a really good point:
Your 100% right and it was the beginning of the end. I had 6 close
friends playing at this time and everyone dropped what they were doing
for the holo grind. I was a master architect and my business came to a
stand still during this phase.
The hologrind shattered the economy, the persistence of the universe. Before it, someone who was, as you say, a Master Architect, was a reliable source of crfated materials. You could "waypoint" a place of business and expect it to be there next week, next month, etc. When the hologrind hit, you could not... people would master, dump their mastered stuff onto the vendor, and switch profs... And so vendors kind of winked on and off like stop lights. In fact this is one of the huge reasons they had to implement global vendor searches. In the early days it was not necessary. YES, the initial search for products could be annoying, but you'd then "bookmark" the good vendor, and go back to it repeatedly. People who had good selections/quality would get word-of-mouth business. They were permanent fixtures in the landscape.
Now, even without the hologrind there would of course have been some turnover... but the hologrind made the turnover go from taking half a year, to taking a few weeks. Almost everyone seemed to be just grinding profs to get their "Jedi Unlock." These folks crowded out and made impossible to find those who were actually interested in and dedicated to each profession (there were always some, but they got lost in the noise).
This is what started destroying the persistence of the world. Once it became practically impossible to find the items you needed... the doctors to heal you... the entertainers to soothe your BF... people started to find it more and more difficult (and less enjoyable) to play the game. Before the hologrind, most hospitals were manned with developing medics... most cantinas were manned by developing entertainers... most cities were surrounded by player housing which included quality vendors. After the hologrind was introduced that all went away. People rushed to master ASAP, dropped, mastered something else, dropped... and people became dedicated to 'getting Jedi' instead of actually playing out their profession. Why bother, after all? The "path" just required you to drop your profession anyway.
The hologrind did this... but I think another part of it was the very idea that profession master and nothing else, made you a Jedi. They should have made the path much, much more complicated than this. So complex that to this day, nobody would have really figured it out yet. They should have made it varied for every player so that even if I somehow figured out how I had done it... it wouldn't help anyone else unlock. This would have kept Jedi rare, kept people interested, and preserved the global economy.
But alas, they made it be just prof masteries, so even without holocrons, once this was discovered, people would still have just ground every prof in the game. And that, I think, spelled the beginning of the end for SWG.
C
Really in my view, the hologrind was just a hiccup more than actually a total disruption of the economy. You really don't need all that many dedicated crafters to keep the economy afloat and let's face it, the best ones on each server got the lion's share of the business anyway.
Also, what broke the system to begin with was lack of followthrough and development. If they had left Jedi as it was, Risk/Reward-----Vis/Permadeath, all of these would be moot points..
so for the three:
1: Lack of followthrough on original design.
2: Lack of vision to add content for group dynamics.
3: Lack of content, GCW or otherwise to allow group dynamics to function instead of worrying about balancing everything for One vs. One dueling....