The hologrind did this... but I think another part of it was the very idea that profession master and nothing else, made you a Jedi. They should have made the path much, much more complicated than this. So complex that to this day, nobody would have really figured it out yet. They should have made it varied for every player so that even if I somehow figured out how I had done it... it wouldn't help anyone else unlock. This would have kept Jedi rare, kept people interested, and preserved the global economy.
The problem with that is it would have been too complicated. This would be a system so complicated that a team of 70 developers (I have no idea if that is the correct number) would have to code it so that 300k players couldn't figure it out in 3 years? I don't think so.
I actually do not see any way to include Jedi players in Episode IV - VI era of Star Wars. Reducing the Strength of Jedi players was met with disapproval. The number of people hologrinding also indicated what would have happened if they capped the number of jedi players per server - many people would have quit once the cap was set.
Heh. Writing this down has actually caused me to change my opinion. Though I still think that lack of focus and mismanagement was the biggest problem with SWG, I do think that the Jedi problem was no small factor now.
"Really in my view, the hologrind was just a hiccup more than actually a total disruption of the economy. You really don't need all that many dedicated crafters to keep the economy afloat and let's face it, the best ones on each server got the lion's share of the business anyway."
I am not sure I agree. You're thinking of the "economy" strictly as the crafted economy. I'm talking about the whole reciprocal ball of wax... crafters, scouts bringing in harvested materials, dancers healing BF/mind, docs healing wounds.
Many of these professions were somewhat rare, but they were generally available. For example, in Keren on my server, there were about 5 of us who were dedicated entertainers, and 2 dedicated medics (one doc, one just a medic/entertainer). We were on every day, and people in the area could always get healing. There were not many of us, but we were THERE.
When the hologrinders took over, the cantina became a see of AFK zombies, a horde of people only interested in XP, and the dedicated performers -- people who actually wanted to keep entertaining -- ended up going elsewhere. The hospital ended up with medics in it who would outright REFUSE to heal other people, because they were grouped with AFK "tumblers", and for the most part AFK healing those AFK tumblers. These things were done because the path to Jedi demanded it. These people were not interested in being medics, entertainers, scouts, etc... they were only interested in grinding to the top and then unlearning their skills to do the next mastery.
The real doctors, entertainers, crafters, and scouts, etc, still existed, sure... but finding them became a real chore. And as I say, the hologrinders often weren't "just" AFK, but even if they were at keyboard they would refuse to help you in any way that slowed down their hologrinding (whereas a true medic, someone who is doing it because he likes healing, would heal you just because that is what he does... etc).
I think when you consider the whole ball of wax, it was much more than just a "blip" on the radar. It fundamentally changed the entire way people played the game. They went from doing professions that they enjoyed, to doing ones they often despised, just to get through them and get to the next one. It wasn't just the crafted economy that was affected by this -- it was the whole thing, from medical to entertainment to scouting as well as crafting. This changed the whole dynamic, the whole way people interacted with each other... IMO, for the worse.
The problem with that is it would have been too complicated. This would be a system so complicated that a team of 70 developers (I have no idea if that is the correct number) would have to code it so that 300k players couldn't figure it out in 3 years? I don't think so. I actually do not see any way to include Jedi players in Episode IV - VI era of Star Wars. Reducing the Strength of Jedi players was met with disapproval. The number of people hologrinding also indicated what would have happened if they capped the number of jedi players per server - many people would have quit once the cap was set. Heh. Writing this down has actually caused me to change my opinion. Though I still think that lack of focus and mismanagement was the biggest problem with SWG, I do think that the Jedi problem was no small factor now.
I agree that fundamentally in this time period there just should not have been Jedi.
But stipulating that there were going to be Jedi, I think the path to getting one should have been something other than a pure profession grind. As for how to make it so complex that the players can't figure it out, the simple expedient of making the path have say 25 possible elements, but only say 10 of them for any one character, randomly chosen at startup time, would solve that. Just make the # of elements and permutations so large that it's unlikely that even 300,000 players would repeat it, and even if you did figure out how you had solved it after you unlock, it wouldn't help anyone else.
To see how this is so, there are only 26 letters in the English alphabet, but there are over a million words that can be created from those letters, and this does not include proper nouns. For example, from this same alphabet I doubt you and I spell our combined first and last names the same way (even if we have the same first name, we don't have the same last).
So... All they need to do is set up 26 elements (not just profession masteries, but totally different elements like, certain badges, entering a certain city, visiting certain POIs, a certain amount of apprenticeship points back when they had thouse, and so on) and then just turn on a random 8 or so of those on your character, and it would make it very difficult to know which ones would be on any one character.
This is just something I am coming up with in 5 minutes during a lull at work, so of course it's not going to be an iron-clad system, but it serves as a simple example. I am sure a much better system could have been devised if they had put their minds to it.
SWG failed because it lacked cohesive leadership and direction. That was LEC's job to provide and their inexperience led to this. The game changed major points of focus and directions at least 6 times in it's short lifespan. Direction is the producers job. Implementation is the developers job. I'm not absolving SOE... their implementations were lackluster, at best, but overall had the game had a steady and steadfast direction SOE would have eventually patched the bugs and the game would have eventually stabalized etc. Much like EQ1 did, EQ2 did and even MxO is starting to do. Problem with SWG, however, was that sine the direction kept changing the bugs just kept getting added on and on and on... and QC (another area that LEC was responsible for) was MIA.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by Chessack "Really in my view, the hologrind was just a hiccup more than actually a total disruption of the economy. You really don't need all that many dedicated crafters to keep the economy afloat and let's face it, the best ones on each server got the lion's share of the business anyway."
I am not sure I agree. You're thinking of the "economy" strictly as the crafted economy. I'm talking about the whole reciprocal ball of wax... crafters, scouts bringing in harvested materials, dancers healing BF/mind, docs healing wounds.
Many of these professions were somewhat rare, but they were generally available. For example, in Keren on my server, there were about 5 of us who were dedicated entertainers, and 2 dedicated medics (one doc, one just a medic/entertainer). We were on every day, and people in the area could always get healing. There were not many of us, but we were THERE.
When the hologrinders took over, the cantina became a see of AFK zombies, a horde of people only interested in XP, and the dedicated performers -- people who actually wanted to keep entertaining -- ended up going elsewhere. The hospital ended up with medics in it who would outright REFUSE to heal other people, because they were grouped with AFK "tumblers", and for the most part AFK healing those AFK tumblers. These things were done because the path to Jedi demanded it. These people were not interested in being medics, entertainers, scouts, etc... they were only interested in grinding to the top and then unlearning their skills to do the next mastery.
The real doctors, entertainers, crafters, and scouts, etc, still existed, sure... but finding them became a real chore. And as I say, the hologrinders often weren't "just" AFK, but even if they were at keyboard they would refuse to help you in any way that slowed down their hologrinding (whereas a true medic, someone who is doing it because he likes healing, would heal you just because that is what he does... etc).
I think when you consider the whole ball of wax, it was much more than just a "blip" on the radar. It fundamentally changed the entire way people played the game. They went from doing professions that they enjoyed, to doing ones they often despised, just to get through them and get to the next one. It wasn't just the crafted economy that was affected by this -- it was the whole thing, from medical to entertainment to scouting as well as crafting. This changed the whole dynamic, the whole way people interacted with each other... IMO, for the worse.
I see what you are saying to an extent but I know I was a MBH for the whole of the hologrind and while it did adversly affect the game it was not as gamebreaking to me as it was to some.
I never had trouble finding a ATK Entertainer or Doctor even on a med. population server like Scylla.
Perhaps I was just lucky and knew all the dedicated people in those profs and good dedicated crafters that had no interest in hologrinding. I know I had no interest in Jedi until one day awhile after the village came out and I got a visit from the old man. I didn't expect and to be honest never /check ed my force level until after that. No one was more surprised than me.
Did I see a ripple effect to the economy because of the hologrind? A little yes but once people unlocked and got their Jedi leveled many returned to profs they fell in love with while hologrinding to Jedi. I think eventually it would have leveled out had permadeath stayed and gotten back on track. But that is just an assumption as those days are long gone and we will never have the chance to find out....
There is one reason that this game has failed, it's been said elsewhere in this thread... "lack of vision" is a polite way of saying ignorant or apathetic, "lack of direction" can also mean lazy.
All the other problems mentioned here, the CU, Jedi a'poppin, unstable player economy, they were game-altering issues. But these could have been overcome in time by sincerely working to correct them.
Instead those responsible took what must have seemed an easy path. After deciding the current playerbase was too expensive or difficult to maintain, they cried "do-over" and cobbled together the current train wreck. Since that time, all the public has received is gum flaps and polished coprolites from the previous game-amputations.
And those responsible continue to take the easy route: this week's half-hearted apologies and finger pointing... more words, words, words.
Either STHU and GBW and demonstrate something other than the "100 monkeys, 100 keyboards" game development method, or show some grace in defeat and abdicate claim to this MMO IP to someone who will honestly nuture it.
Comments
The problem with that is it would have been too complicated. This would be a system so complicated that a team of 70 developers (I have no idea if that is the correct number) would have to code it so that 300k players couldn't figure it out in 3 years? I don't think so.
I actually do not see any way to include Jedi players in Episode IV - VI era of Star Wars. Reducing the Strength of Jedi players was met with disapproval. The number of people hologrinding also indicated what would have happened if they capped the number of jedi players per server - many people would have quit once the cap was set.
Heh. Writing this down has actually caused me to change my opinion. Though I still think that lack of focus and mismanagement was the biggest problem with SWG, I do think that the Jedi problem was no small factor now.
total disruption of the economy. You really don't need all that many
dedicated crafters to keep the economy afloat and let's face it, the
best ones on each server got the lion's share of the business anyway."
I am not sure I agree. You're thinking of the "economy" strictly as the crafted economy. I'm talking about the whole reciprocal ball of wax... crafters, scouts bringing in harvested materials, dancers healing BF/mind, docs healing wounds.
Many of these professions were somewhat rare, but they were generally available. For example, in Keren on my server, there were about 5 of us who were dedicated entertainers, and 2 dedicated medics (one doc, one just a medic/entertainer). We were on every day, and people in the area could always get healing. There were not many of us, but we were THERE.
When the hologrinders took over, the cantina became a see of AFK zombies, a horde of people only interested in XP, and the dedicated performers -- people who actually wanted to keep entertaining -- ended up going elsewhere. The hospital ended up with medics in it who would outright REFUSE to heal other people, because they were grouped with AFK "tumblers", and for the most part AFK healing those AFK tumblers. These things were done because the path to Jedi demanded it. These people were not interested in being medics, entertainers, scouts, etc... they were only interested in grinding to the top and then unlearning their skills to do the next mastery.
The real doctors, entertainers, crafters, and scouts, etc, still existed, sure... but finding them became a real chore. And as I say, the hologrinders often weren't "just" AFK, but even if they were at keyboard they would refuse to help you in any way that slowed down their hologrinding (whereas a true medic, someone who is doing it because he likes healing, would heal you just because that is what he does... etc).
I think when you consider the whole ball of wax, it was much more than just a "blip" on the radar. It fundamentally changed the entire way people played the game. They went from doing professions that they enjoyed, to doing ones they often despised, just to get through them and get to the next one. It wasn't just the crafted economy that was affected by this -- it was the whole thing, from medical to entertainment to scouting as well as crafting. This changed the whole dynamic, the whole way people interacted with each other... IMO, for the worse.
C
But stipulating that there were going to be Jedi, I think the path to getting one should have been something other than a pure profession grind. As for how to make it so complex that the players can't figure it out, the simple expedient of making the path have say 25 possible elements, but only say 10 of them for any one character, randomly chosen at startup time, would solve that. Just make the # of elements and permutations so large that it's unlikely that even 300,000 players would repeat it, and even if you did figure out how you had solved it after you unlock, it wouldn't help anyone else.
To see how this is so, there are only 26 letters in the English alphabet, but there are over a million words that can be created from those letters, and this does not include proper nouns. For example, from this same alphabet I doubt you and I spell our combined first and last names the same way (even if we have the same first name, we don't have the same last).
So... All they need to do is set up 26 elements (not just profession masteries, but totally different elements like, certain badges, entering a certain city, visiting certain POIs, a certain amount of apprenticeship points back when they had thouse, and so on) and then just turn on a random 8 or so of those on your character, and it would make it very difficult to know which ones would be on any one character.
This is just something I am coming up with in 5 minutes during a lull at work, so of course it's not going to be an iron-clad system, but it serves as a simple example. I am sure a much better system could have been devised if they had put their minds to it.
C
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
There is no 3 reasons.
Just 1 reason.
CU
didnt they scap the CD system too? so now they are never planning to fix the LOS and mobs running thru walls issues.
seems its only getting worse and the list of what not to do gets longer and longer and longer
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
There is one reason that this game has failed, it's been said elsewhere in this thread... "lack of vision" is a polite way of saying ignorant or apathetic, "lack of direction" can also mean lazy.
All the other problems mentioned here, the CU, Jedi a'poppin, unstable player economy, they were game-altering issues. But these could have been overcome in time by sincerely working to correct them.
Instead those responsible took what must have seemed an easy path. After deciding the current playerbase was too expensive or difficult to maintain, they cried "do-over" and cobbled together the current train wreck. Since that time, all the public has received is gum flaps and polished coprolites from the previous game-amputations.
And those responsible continue to take the easy route: this week's half-hearted apologies and finger pointing... more words, words, words.
Either STHU and GBW and demonstrate something other than the "100 monkeys, 100 keyboards" game development method, or show some grace in defeat and abdicate claim to this MMO IP to someone who will honestly nuture it.