Pre-Cu CU

kain-iii

I see alot of people not liking CU but I would like to understand what it is they did not like about CU.

I myself liked the HAM bars in CU. Health Action and Mind still all had a role but it was only if ur health went down that u did.

I also liked the role playing.. Tank, etc etc,

I also liked the timers on the specials which kept u cycling between them so u were not using the same move over and over.

What i did not like was how Docs and Entertainers got screwed. All that was needed was a tone down of buffs and dots. Med Centers, Cantina's and coronet were all booming then.

I also did not like the removal of wounds.

So what I would like to have seen is Pre-CU with CU Ham bars, Role Playing as CU, Timers as in CU, Docs and Entertainers as they were with wounds.

So how about u guys? Is this a general feeling or just me? What would u like to see as a combination of Pre-CU/CU.

Not really getting into NGE as I think the majority of people would just say quests, new player intro other then that scrap it.

dookseid

My biggest beef was honestly with the introduction of levels.  That was totally immersion breaking in a game that never had them before.

The intro of the stupid particle effects also hit hard.  Why the fu......

Nevermind.   I just get kinda pissy about it.

CU did have some good points that you have eluded to like the roles being more specific but overall,  they went too far and just made the game dumber.  If they had rolled out the Combat Revamp instead of the Combat Upgrade,  we may not even be having this discussion now....

SODAofBRIA

I always thought that a CU combat system mixed with the rulesets from PreCU (city warn, TEF, etc) would have made a really fun game.

I thought that the CU combat system left more room for countering moves and less spamming the same special over and over.

SODAofBRIA

---

Originally posted by dookseid

My biggest beef was honestly with the introduction of levels.  That was totally immersion breaking in a game that never had them before.

---

Yeah...the levels suck. The mystery is gone.

Rekrul

Role-playing, if you use this term to describe the combat mechanics, results in the common paradigm: Tank, Nuker, Healer.

3 classes.

Tank stands and grabs "agro". Healer keeps tank alive. Nuker kills stuff. And this describes all the gameplay from start to end. Nothing can ever be done differently.

This is one of most primitive concepts ever devised in gaming. This concept alone completely limits the number of classes, as well as their function. it completely eliminates any kind of skill or immersion, and makes players bots, that control the role of their chose class. There cannot be anything else. If you're not a tank, the game will prevent you from playing a tanking role, regardless of your skill. If you're a healer, you will not be dealing damage. Even if you only spend 3% of your time healing, you are not there to deal damage. Deal with it.

Then, you get the problems.

Whaa, tanks don't deal damage and can't heal themself.
Whaa, nukers can't tank or heal themself.
Whaa, healers can't tank or deal damage.
Healers cannot solo combat content. Tanks solo everything. Nukers nuke as long as they can, usually wipe out everything, then die to a single mob 17 levels beneath them.

Then, the nerfs and buffs happen. You end up with one class being completely overpowered, and others completely broken. This was all seen before.

One of major apeals to me in pre-cu was the fact, that you were what you chose to be. Role-playing was playing a role. The one you chose. Not being a automata controller for restraints of your game mechanics defined class.

acmtalk

If it wasn't for the levels + the weapons cap/loot, CU was better then pre-cu, at least it was way more balanced, specially CM/Jedi....

wardog250

---

Originally posted by kain-iii

I see alot of people not liking CU but I would like to understand what it is they did not like about CU.

I myself liked the HAM bars in CU. Health Action and Mind still all had a role but it was only if ur health went down that u did.

I also liked the role playing.. Tank, etc etc,

I also liked the timers on the specials which kept u cycling between them so u were not using the same move over and over.

What i did not like was how Docs and Entertainers got screwed. All that was needed was a tone down of buffs and dots. Med Centers, Cantina's and coronet were all booming then.

I also did not like the removal of wounds.

So what I would like to have seen is Pre-CU with CU Ham bars, Role Playing as CU, Timers as in CU, Docs and Entertainers as they were with wounds.

So how about u guys? Is this a general feeling or just me? What would u like to see as a combination of Pre-CU/CU.

Not really getting into NGE as I think the majority of people would just say quests, new player intro other then that scrap it.

---

I myself liked the intro to the HAM, and could have done without the lvls.  The CU introduced some good stuff, but it also took away.  In any game when you take away, people are going to be pissed.  The added factional items were a huge plus in my book.  I hated the fact you needed faction to put on a suite of armor you payed out the ass for, and the biosig armor was really dumb.  I had considered playing as a Jedi pre-CU having completed all of the village quests, but after CU, there were Jedi EVERYWHERE!  They were floating around the galaxy in gank squads.

I didn't like the removal of the medical buffs, and entertainment buffs.  It allowed people to consolidate in certain areas at one point in time during their game play.  Now cities were ghost towns.  Everyone was out in BFE grinding, or out in space.  My all mighty guild was doomed, and my player city also became a ghost town as well, which was frequented by money farmers.  I had never seen money farming in the game, and now it was rampant.  There was swarms of them in the game everywhere you went.  I think that was the last strawl for me.  It wasn't even Star Wars anymore, it was a program created for people to profit off of in the real world.

hargrave

Its not about what we want its what julios wants. Look at all the video footage of summits and others and posts. Its always what he wants its always I wanted this I wanted that well who the hell cares what he wants? If notice the realease to about why the NGE was made its all about what the Devs wanted and Julio and making it easier for them well its eaiser for them and they still cant do sh#t right lol. So i agree give me pre-cu-cu anyday its here and on its way thank god no more of this crap tgr and obraik and pirrg can go wrap there lips around the nge and the rest of us can finally play once again !!

Fignar

CU was better then the NGE for combat thats it i.e fighting between players and creatures. However it changed too  much of the non-combat game and things which were in-directly involved with actual combat. The levels dictating outcome, the armor changes i.e removal of the third experimentation line and making resources hundreds of people had been collecting (even the new armorsmiths) were made useless, the cap on weapon damage which could be reached so easily it took the fun out of crafting for many weaponsmiths, the removal of crafting from doctors fubaring entertainers, just a few issues many more can be named. When i thought about a combat upgrade i expected something that balanced combat and only affected combat not crafting or any other aspect of the non-combat game. The fact is they tried to re-invent the game with CU and failed, they tried to do the same thing again with NGE and failed again.

Now they've wasted what nearly 2 years on bollocks, the CU, NGE and bullcrap expansions. If they kept the original system and if the idiotic Dev team, who really have no idea about how the pre-cu system worked,  actually spent some time and played the pre-cu game they could have spent 2 years adding profession fixes, free in game content, fixing bugs and building a relationship of trust with its player base. Instead they ruined what was agame with infinite potential and ruined a "Star Wars"  MMO.  Now i suspect these developers suffer from the EQ syndrome which is why the game has eveolved as it has, all they know is loot, fixed classes, spoon fed content and no diversity. Now if they cannot change their mentality this game will not progress at all and will continue to be a poor version of games already out there. In other words its slowly going to die the only thing that will keep it alive longer then what it should be is the fact its tied in to station pass. If they had the balls to add it as a seperate pay to play game the death of the game would creep up alot sooner.

Shayde

---

Originally posted by SODAofBRIA

Originally posted by dookseid

My biggest beef was honestly with the introduction of levels.  That was totally immersion breaking in a game that never had them before.

Yeah...the levels suck. The mystery is gone.

---

Not only that.. but the damage mitigation that went with it made the game pathetic.

Wind'Chilly

The only things thatneeded a change from Pre-cu going intot he CU was lowering  mind poison from CM's to a max of around 500  per tick

Everything else was fine.

 if you spammed specials pre-cu you would have no chance in PvP and oyu would be dead. So you did not spam then either.

CasualMaker

---

Originally posted by kain-iii

What i did not like was how Docs and Entertainers got screwed. All that was needed was a tone down of buffs and dots. Med Centers, Cantina's and coronet were all booming then.

I also did not like the removal of wounds.

---

Actually, BF and wounds were still there (for a while) after the CU hit.  But combat levels with damage multipliers completely screwed them up.  If you were much higher in level, attacks were barely noticable.  Lower level, and you were dead long before you accumulated much BF or wounds.

Kryogenic

PreCU

-I hated the long lines waiting for Doc's Buffs

-Everyone and there brother had Composite Armor... even Jedi (Although a Jedi in composite with a lightsaber looked alot cooler than the initial NGE robes.)

-Too much combat spam. Macros lessened this, but still didn't make PvP enjoyable.

-Hologrinding just plain screwed alot fo things up.

CU

-The village was an unispired, steaming pile of crap. A HUGE timesink that wasn't very fun.

-The additions of lvls was kinda stupid. I did however enjoy the way the skills worked.

-The particle effects were just really cheesy. I mean gimme a brake... why a particle effect when you pull out a vehicle?!!!

NGE

I can't even begin to start my laundry list of complaints, but I will say this:

If they hadn't of gone to that horrendous control scheme I probably could have stomached the game for a bit longer than I did. However, the controls and the "iconic" bullshit just killed me and the game.

What's worse is I've moved from game to game and haven't been able to find a game that keeps my attention as longs as SWG did.

Harry-Sack

The guys above said most of it.

- Character levels suck, immersion breaking & damage based upon level difference was just horrible.

- Particle effects - truly awful.  The state and buff indicators in pre-cu were simple and functional.  No cartoony crap was needed.

- Roots & snares... lame.  Not really gonna go on about this.

- Finally... I know pre-cu some people complained it was too easy.  For instance, taking on 12 stormies at a time.  But in the CU... you had to whack a stormie like 10 times w/ a lightsaber to take him down?  It sucked even worse.  What was needed was better AI... mobs that heal, run, & use strategy.

Tiller

I agree with alot of this. The cu could have been done better. The only thing I think that was good in the NGE was quest exp and some new quests. But if they had added just that a long time ago it might have saved the game from all this.

Tiller

All this brings me to question I asked a long time ago. What ever happened to the mysterious CU that never was? Some of you may remember hearing about a CU that was shelved in place of the one we got because the changes were not dramatic enough.

RemyVorender

I really don't care what other changes occured during the CU. Changing it from a SKILL to a Level based system lost me forever.

EDIT: Killing Creature Handler sucked pretty hard too. Best class in an MMO ever.

zipit

---

Originally posted by Rekrul
Role-playing, if you use this term to describe the combat mechanics, results in the common paradigm: Tank, Nuker, Healer.

3 classes.

Tank stands and grabs "agro". Healer keeps tank alive. Nuker kills stuff. And this describes all the gameplay from start to end. Nothing can ever be done differently.

This is one of most primitive concepts ever devised in gaming. This concept alone completely limits the number of classes, as well as their function. it completely eliminates any kind of skill or immersion, and makes players bots, that control the role of their chose class. There cannot be anything else. If you're not a tank, the game will prevent you from playing a tanking role, regardless of your skill. If you're a healer, you will not be dealing damage. Even if you only spend 3% of your time healing, you are not there to deal damage. Deal with it.

Then, you get the problems.

Whaa, tanks don't deal damage and can't heal themself.
Whaa, nukers can't tank or heal themself.
Whaa, healers can't tank or deal damage.
Healers cannot solo combat content. Tanks solo everything. Nukers nuke as long as they can, usually wipe out everything, then die to a single mob 17 levels beneath them.

Then, the nerfs and buffs happen. You end up with one class being completely overpowered, and others completely broken. This was all seen before.

One of major apeals to me in pre-cu was the fact, that you were what you chose to be. Role-playing was playing a role. The one you chose. Not being a automata controller for restraints of your game mechanics defined class.

---

 A very thoughtful and dilligent thread in the midst of chaos here at mmorpg.com . Well written

Shayde

---

Originally posted by tillamook

All this brings me to question I asked a long time ago. What ever happened to the mysterious CU that never was? Some of you may remember hearing about a CU that was shelved in place of the one we got because the changes were not dramatic enough.

---

I have the documents... Hell, let me try to cut & Paste.

SODAofBRIA

Lol I was so pissed right after the CU...I had really just figured out what I was doing and the direction I wanted to go with my toon, contols, combat, etc..and then the damn CU hits...Now I have to learn a new game.

After about a month, it was cool though. The CU was still a good/fun game, it was just different.

The NGE...That's a different story. Lot's more crying.

Shayde

I can't think of one good thing that came out of the CU.

Reachwind

There are really only two versions of SWG.

Raph Koster's

- TEFs and forced PvP GCW
- Unknown path perma death jedi system
- Battle fatigue and wounds
- 10 minute shuttle and star port waits
- Animated combat meant to simulate the action from the star wars movies
- Player created content (missions, GCW bases, player cities and crafting based sustainable economy)

Post Raph Koster

- PvE GCW
- A rigid class/level system
- Directed content
- No downtime
- Particle effects meant to simulate the action from single player star wars video games

The Raph Koster version was only given four months of live time before it was scrapped.

ebenholt

Like dookseid allready said the worst crap with the CU was the introduction of combat levels... the immerson of the game died there and then with that idiot move

Secont was the removal of different type of damage. I agree it was retarded with damage types you could not defend yourself effectively against but that could be fixed. Anyway with only 2 different damagetypes the MOBs lost their personality.

About "spamming your best move" was all due to the rediculous overpowered buffs so the whole combat system was offset. As specials was suppose to cost HAM you had a self regulated "cooldown" to your moves if you weren't buffed. The change to just health counting for incap was just an easy fix as the mindpool was the thing to attack preCU.

I need to comment on Rekruls post as well as it was a good one. The sad thing is he's right about the "ruleset" of most MMOs. The ones using EQ style (they are plenty) is the DIKU ruels if I've got it right. The classes are set etc. etc. How lame is that? SOE made a shot with SWG at making a MMO more like UO with little rules. What scares me is that the gamers want DIKU MMOs. They want things they had before and understad right away.

I say MMO-gamers (generalizing here) don't want to use their heads as they are lazy or are slightly stupid people (not counting the ones complaining about the bugs and lack of content in 2003).

After SOE violated SWG in an attempt to mainstream the game mechanics so "gamers could understand how it worked" I've tried alot of games and most are of the same lame DIKU ruleset.

kain-iii

Yea part of the problem was the lack of tuturials.

A introduction and some beginner proffession quests could of went along way in making people feel comfortable with the game.

Alot of MMO's lack in this department and I don't understand why.

This should be #1 on the list. Helping people get a feel for the game can make all the difference.

Tuturials is the answer not dumbing down the game. A dumbed down game will just get boring quickly.

Distopia

---

Originally posted by Shayde
I can't think of one good thing that came out of the CU.

---

So are you saying actually making other armors viable was not a good thing ?

Fignar

Other armors could easily have been made viable without the drastical all game hitting CU. To actuallly stop people wearing comp all the time they could have just stopped the avialbility of buffing your secondary stats so that the encumberance of armor mattered. This would mean you could wear a full suit of comp provided it was made by the best resources spawned and by a good AS, but it would mean your ability to spam specials and recover health, action and mind would be severly affected. They could also have just bumped up the protections of the other armors and or reduced the stupid Hide/bone requirements so they were resources which were easier to obtain i.e. instead of yavinian wooly hide use Tatooine or dantooine etc.  You didn't need the CU to make armors viable.