Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Pre-Cu CU
This discussion has been closed.
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Comments
If a game requires tutorial to play, its interface, mechanics or logic are broken and should be reworked.
Apart from people who run into a computer game for the first time, be it either the genre, or the platform, everything should be standardized. Just like WASD interface, the button bar, the standard key layout, the support for joystick, common paradigms such as quest journal, inventory, interaction, etc.
QWERTY keyboard layout has been proven to be a disaster in the times of typewriters. Yet it was so familiar to all the users, that alternate layouts didn't catch on.
Is Windows intuitive? Or is Mac better? Irrelevant. People will use the platform they are familiar with regardless of technical merits.
"Add more tutorials" is management speak. Interaction designers will look at users, have them seat at the computer, and watch them do stuff. Then they'll change the game as needed. Not put a facade over broken stuff.
As said before, this does not include first timers to the game, but those are irrelevant, since first-timers do not make the majority of the market. Majority of users will be familiar with computer games and what to expect.
Why exactly did you need more tutorials?
- Were the controls unintuitive?
- Did you have problem with the skill system?
- Were you confused about experience gathering system?
- Did you have trouble navigating the world?
- Did you find interface to be difficult to use?
- Did you come from another game/platform and found it to be different?
These are the real questions to ask. Slaping a bunch of text pages at the beginner wouldn't solve that.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The other armors weren't made viable the system was changed to accommodate them, thats the difference. The way it should have been done was get rid of the issue that cause people to stick with comp all the time which was the powerfull doc buffs being used to buff secondary stats therefore eiliminating the effects of encumberance so you could wear a full suit of comp and spam specials all day long. I am sure the system was not designed for this / or they had not forseen that is what would happen.
Water cooled Intel Corei7 920 D0 Stepping OC'd 4.3GHz - 6GB Corsair Dominator GT RAM 2000Mhz - ASUS RAGE II EXTREME X58 Mobo - 2x HD 5870 in Crossfire X, OC'd 0.9Ghz core 1.3Ghz RAM - Dell 2407WFP Flat Panel LCD 24" 1920x1200
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If a game requires tutorial to play, its interface, mechanics or logic are broken and should be reworked.
Apart from people who run into a computer game for the first time, be it either the genre, or the platform, everything should be standardized. Just like WASD interface, the button bar, the standard key layout, the support for joystick, common paradigms such as quest journal, inventory, interaction, etc.
QWERTY keyboard layout has been proven to be a disaster in the times of typewriters. Yet it was so familiar to all the users, that alternate layouts didn't catch on.
Is Windows intuitive? Or is Mac better? Irrelevant. People will use the platform they are familiar with regardless of technical merits.
"Add more tutorials" is management speak. Interaction designers will look at users, have them seat at the computer, and watch them do stuff. Then they'll change the game as needed. Not put a facade over broken stuff.
As said before, this does not include first timers to the game, but those are irrelevant, since first-timers do not make the majority of the market. Majority of users will be familiar with computer games and what to expect.
Why exactly did you need more tutorials?
- Were the controls unintuitive?
- Did you have problem with the skill system?
- Were you confused about experience gathering system?
- Did you have trouble navigating the world?
- Did you find interface to be difficult to use?
- Did you come from another game/platform and found it to be different?
These are the real questions to ask. Slaping a bunch of text pages at the beginner wouldn't solve that.
I would have to strongly dissagree. If i could play a game without any kind of tutorial or reading up on it then it most likely does not have any depth or anything to for that matter.
If u read up on alot of reviews for MMO's the common complaint is lack of tutorial.
Also I can't see a game being different then anything else. If something cannot capture your attention and make u feel at home quickly then it most likely will be overlooked.
Also sure u can dumb a game down like the NGE and just point and click basicly but how boring is that? It will be a easy attraction to players but you will shorten how long you will retain your players.
If a game requires tutorial to play, its interface, mechanics or logic are broken and should be reworked. So are you saying any interface , That requires the user to actually learn is broken ? Believe it or not new Pc gamers arise everyday . Comming from console to PC is quite a learning curve to be quite honest . This is who tutorials are normally geared for . New players in general .
Apart from people who run into a computer game for the first time, be it either the genre, or the platform, everything should be standardized. Just like WASD interface, the button bar, the standard key layout, the support for joystick, common paradigms such as quest journal, inventory, interaction, etc. I totally disagree with this . Standardized is the bastard child of deevolution . WASD is fine in a first person settin , But becomes clunky in a more explorable system , Mouse movement tends to work a lot better under such conditions . Things like inventory IMO should be bindable to any key . Same with most other functions . I feel more development houses should focus on a more interchangable scheme other than anything else.
QWERTY keyboard layout has been proven to be a disaster in the times of typewriters. Yet it was so familiar to all the users, that alternate layouts didn't catch on.
Is Windows intuitive? Or is Mac better? Irrelevant. People will use the platform they are familiar with regardless of technical merits. Like you said its irrelevant
"Add more tutorials" is management speak. Interaction designers will look at users, have them seat at the computer, and watch them do stuff. Then they'll change the game as needed. Not put a facade over broken stuff. Not exactly true , There are many complaints that come from everyone from reviewers to gamers . Revolving around lack of an understandable tutorial
As said before, this does not include first timers to the game, but those are irrelevant, since first-timers do not make the majority of the market. Majority of users will be familiar with computer games and what to expect. This is a horrible opinion to have under a buisness plan . New players are very important to consider in a development plan . No new players=No new buisness and/or growth
Why exactly did you need more tutorials? Personally I didn't but when there is a high learning curve , I see no problem with it .
- Were the controls unintuitive? No but they remain for the most part personalizable , So its irrelevant .
- Did you have problem with the skill system? Again personally no , But that doesn't mean a lot of people didn't . Who knows really when it comes to this . I think this will be one of the great mysteries, In regards to why they changed things in galaxies.
- Were you confused about experience gathering system? No , But they really didn't change how you gather experience , Other than adding different means of obtaining it.
- Did you have trouble navigating the world? No , but thats because I could set the controls how I prefer them to be . Still can .
- Did you find interface to be difficult to use? No in regards to SWG it wasn't my first MMO , But The first time I played Eq such an interface was a tad confusing . Because it looked like a strategy games interface.
- Did you come from another game/platform and found it to be different? Well yeah up until I purchased my first gaming PC years ago . I was a console player it was a big difference when I first tried it out .
These are the real questions to ask. Slaping a bunch of text pages at the beginner wouldn't solve that.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I did not say "No tutorial". Just the extent of it.
My first computer was Spectrum 48k. Greatest fun I've had there in
games, was figuring out which keys to press to make a character move.
Playing was secondary.
WASD was example. The paradigms shared between games are different, but they boil down to basic layout. Like it or not, WASD must exist today. It's the QWERTY.
First cars required about 20 steps to start them. Today, you sit in any car ($100k+ sports models excluded), you put your clutch in, turn the key, and shift into gear. Then you drive off (left vs. right-sided difference exists). Does this mean cars devolved? Change for simple isn't always bad.
"Understandable tutorial". Very good wording. Does the tutorial serve it's purpose? Does it teach you to play? Does it introduce the concepts? Is it trying to teach the right things? Or is it just a bunch of meaningless messages, giving you bogus instructions and forcing you to go through completely obvious stuff?
Not really. The WoW generation is large. When they are looking for a new game, their first observation will be: "This sux, it's not like WoW". QWERTY all over again. WASD all over again.
New players to gaming will not see a problem with learning concepts. It'll be the whole challenge for them.
New players to your game will want it to be like their favorite game was.
This isn't about obsoleting the tutorials. But about thinking outside the box.
One of most horrible tutorials I've ever experienced in an MMO is RF Online. That thing gave me nightmares for weeks. For example, 30% of tutorial was spent on teaching me how to change my display settings, and change the shadow detail. The rest was spent demonstrating 7 different ways to move around. Last 3% of the tutorial introduced: "Potions, weapons, magic, armor, leveling, progression, skills, xp and world".
BAD tutorial.
Making things intuitive is not same as dumbing things down, neither is making things accessible. But most games simply slap tutorial on at the end, and they repeat the same useless junk all over again.
Players do not need to be taught how to turn camera or move around in a 15 minute tutorial. And yet, this is where all the bad tutorials come from.
Diablo prided itself in having 1-button mouse controls (1 click did everything). Was that a shallow simple game? Many tic-tac-toe games use more controls.
How many FPS gzmes add 4-6 buttons just to change posture? How often do you change posture?
Sierra/LA adventures came with no tutorial. They did well despite that.
This goes way beyond the markets and business, but turns right back into the state of the industry. Nobody even bothers to experiment anymore. Why do games need tutorial, seriously? Why are there so many ways to rotate camera? Why are there 4 ways to move around? 7 ways to use an object? 16 ways to interact with world?
Because there is no forethought given into it. Interaction design is something unheard of in game development, when it became part of business process in other branches long time ago. Sure, like all business practices it's abused by some, misunderstood by others, ignored by third. Yet it exists, and it's proven.
Unfortunately, gaming industry rarely allows external experience to penetrate it. Unit testing is still an exotic feature to have.
Yes, magazines and players complain over tutorials. But what exactly are they complaining about? Is it really about "not enough"?
Not only that.. but the damage mitigation that went with it made the game pathetic.
Heh. I was going to say that, now I don't need to. This was my biggest problem with the CU.
I agree. Although the reason that I don't need tutorials is that I rarely buy a game without doing some research on it first.
I do think that every game needs a decent tutorial, though they all need to have the option to skip them.
The worst tutorial ever is hands down the EVE tutorial. That thing is insanely long.
I did not say "No tutorial". Just the extent of it.
My first computer was Spectrum 48k. Greatest fun I've had there in games, was figuring out which keys to press to make a character move. Playing was secondary.
WASD was example. The paradigms shared between games are different, but they boil down to basic layout. Like it or not, WASD must exist today. It's the QWERTY.
First cars required about 20 steps to start them. Today, you sit in any car ($100k+ sports models excluded), you put your clutch in, turn the key, and shift into gear. Then you drive off (left vs. right-sided difference exists). Does this mean cars devolved? Change for simple isn't always bad.
"Add more tutorials" is management speak. Interaction designers will look at users, have them seat at the computer, and watch them do stuff. Then they'll change the game as needed. Not put a facade over broken stuff. Not exactly true , There are many complaints that come from everyone from reviewers to gamers . Revolving around lack of an understandable tutorial
"Understandable tutorial". Very good wording. Does the tutorial serve it's purpose? Does it teach you to play? Does it introduce the concepts? Is it trying to teach the right things? Or is it just a bunch of meaningless messages, giving you bogus instructions and forcing you to go through completely obvious stuff?
As said before, this does not include first timers to the game, but those are irrelevant, since first-timers do not make the majority of the market. Majority of users will be familiar with computer games and what to expect. This is a horrible opinion to have under a buisness plan . New players are very important to consider in a development plan . No new players=No new buisness and/or growth
Not really. The WoW generation is large. When they are looking for a new game, their first observation will be: "This sux, it's not like WoW". QWERTY all over again. WASD all over again.
New players to gaming will not see a problem with learning concepts. It'll be the whole challenge for them.
New players to your game will want it to be like their favorite game was.
This isn't about obsoleting the tutorials. But about thinking outside the box.
One of most horrible tutorials I've ever experienced in an MMO is RF Online. That thing gave me nightmares for weeks. For example, 30% of tutorial was spent on teaching me how to change my display settings, and change the shadow detail. The rest was spent demonstrating 7 different ways to move around. Last 3% of the tutorial introduced: "Potions, weapons, magic, armor, leveling, progression, skills, xp and world".
BAD tutorial.
Making things intuitive is not same as dumbing things down, neither is making things accessible. But most games simply slap tutorial on at the end, and they repeat the same useless junk all over again.
Players do not need to be taught how to turn camera or move around in a 15 minute tutorial. And yet, this is where all the bad tutorials come from.
Diablo prided itself in having 1-button mouse controls (1 click did everything). Was that a shallow simple game? Many tic-tac-toe games use more controls.
How many FPS gzmes add 4-6 buttons just to change posture? How often do you change posture?
Sierra/LA adventures came with no tutorial. They did well despite that.
This goes way beyond the markets and business, but turns right back into the state of the industry. Nobody even bothers to experiment anymore. Why do games need tutorial, seriously? Why are there so many ways to rotate camera? Why are there 4 ways to move around? 7 ways to use an object? 16 ways to interact with world?
Because there is no forethought given into it. Interaction design is something unheard of in game development, when it became part of business process in other branches long time ago. Sure, like all business practices it's abused by some, misunderstood by others, ignored by third. Yet it exists, and it's proven.
Unfortunately, gaming industry rarely allows external experience to penetrate it. Unit testing is still an exotic feature to have.
Yes, magazines and players complain over tutorials. But what exactly are they complaining about? Is it really about "not enough"?
This isn't about obsoleting the tutorials. But about thinking outside the box.
One of most horrible tutorials I've ever experienced in an MMO is RF Online. That thing gave me nightmares for weeks. For example, 30% of tutorial was spent on teaching me how to change my display settings, and change the shadow detail. The rest was spent demonstrating 7 different ways to move around. Last 3% of the tutorial introduced: "Potions, weapons, magic, armor, leveling, progression, skills, xp and world".
BAD tutorial.
Making things intuitive is not same as dumbing things down, neither is making things accessible. But most games simply slap tutorial on at the end, and they repeat the same useless junk all over again.
Players do not need to be taught how to turn camera or move around in a 15 minute tutorial. And yet, this is where all the bad tutorials come from.
Diablo prided itself in having 1-button mouse controls (1 click did everything). Was that a shallow simple game? Many tic-tac-toe games use more controls.
How many FPS gzmes add 4-6 buttons just to change posture? How often do you change posture?
Sierra/LA adventures came with no tutorial. They did well despite that.
This goes way beyond the markets and business, but turns right back into the state of the industry. Nobody even bothers to experiment anymore. Why do games need tutorial, seriously? Why are there so many ways to rotate camera? Why are there 4 ways to move around? 7 ways to use an object? 16 ways to interact with world?
Because there is no forethought given into it. Interaction design is something unheard of in game development, when it became part of business process in other branches long time ago. Sure, like all business practices it's abused by some, misunderstood by others, ignored by third. Yet it exists, and it's proven.
Unfortunately, gaming industry rarely allows external experience to penetrate it. Unit testing is still an exotic feature to have.
Yes, magazines and players complain over tutorials. But what exactly are they complaining about? Is it really about "not enough"?
Tutorials are there for people who need them. If u feel u do not why not skip. But as stated above it is a great tool for those that need it. I am not talking about a bad tutorial obviously.
For a fact I seen alot of people come and go through star wars and say this game just isn't for me. Upon further discussion it was just too much for them. This is no exaggaration to make a point. SWG could of kept alot of these customers if there was just some help for the people that needed it. I myself had a tough time in SWG. I came from a FPS game and this was all new to me. I depended alot on my bother and guildmates for help. They were alot of help. But not everyone that tries this game will run into the kind of support I had.
Also I am talikng about a user friendly tutorial ofcourse to help a player fit right in. As u stated some may be a bit too lengthy etc but if you felt comfortable with different sections I don't see why anyone would have to be FORCED to go through all of it.
"Understandable tutorial". Very good wording. Does the tutorial serve it's purpose? Does it teach you to play? Does it introduce the concepts? Is it trying to teach the right things? Or is it just a bunch of meaningless messages, giving you bogus instructions and forcing you to go through completely obvious stuff?
Not really. The WoW generation is large. When they are looking for a new game, their first observation will be: "This sux, it's not like WoW". QWERTY all over again. WASD all over again.
New players to gaming will not see a problem with learning concepts. It'll be the whole challenge for them.
New players to your game will want it to be like their favorite game was.
This isn't about obsoleting the tutorials. But about thinking outside the box.
One of most horrible tutorials I've ever experienced in an MMO is RF Online. That thing gave me nightmares for weeks. For example, 30% of tutorial was spent on teaching me how to change my display settings, and change the shadow detail. The rest was spent demonstrating 7 different ways to move around. Last 3% of the tutorial introduced: "Potions, weapons, magic, armor, leveling, progression, skills, xp and world".
BAD tutorial.
Making things intuitive is not same as dumbing things down, neither is making things accessible. But most games simply slap tutorial on at the end, and they repeat the same useless junk all over again.
Players do not need to be taught how to turn camera or move around in a 15 minute tutorial. And yet, this is where all the bad tutorials come from.
Diablo prided itself in having 1-button mouse controls (1 click did everything). Was that a shallow simple game? Many tic-tac-toe games use more controls.
How many FPS gzmes add 4-6 buttons just to change posture? How often do you change posture?
Sierra/LA adventures came with no tutorial. They did well despite that.
This goes way beyond the markets and business, but turns right back into the state of the industry. Nobody even bothers to experiment anymore. Why do games need tutorial, seriously? Why are there so many ways to rotate camera? Why are there 4 ways to move around? 7 ways to use an object? 16 ways to interact with world?
Because there is no forethought given into it. Interaction design is something unheard of in game development, when it became part of business process in other branches long time ago. Sure, like all business practices it's abused by some, misunderstood by others, ignored by third. Yet it exists, and it's proven.
Unfortunately, gaming industry rarely allows external experience to penetrate it. Unit testing is still an exotic feature to have.
Yes, magazines and players complain over tutorials. But what exactly are they complaining about? Is it really about "not enough"?
This isn't about obsoleting the tutorials. But about thinking outside the box.
One of most horrible tutorials I've ever experienced in an MMO is RF Online. That thing gave me nightmares for weeks. For example, 30% of tutorial was spent on teaching me how to change my display settings, and change the shadow detail. The rest was spent demonstrating 7 different ways to move around. Last 3% of the tutorial introduced: "Potions, weapons, magic, armor, leveling, progression, skills, xp and world".
BAD tutorial.
Making things intuitive is not same as dumbing things down, neither is making things accessible. But most games simply slap tutorial on at the end, and they repeat the same useless junk all over again.
Players do not need to be taught how to turn camera or move around in a 15 minute tutorial. And yet, this is where all the bad tutorials come from.
Diablo prided itself in having 1-button mouse controls (1 click did everything). Was that a shallow simple game? Many tic-tac-toe games use more controls.
How many FPS gzmes add 4-6 buttons just to change posture? How often do you change posture?
Sierra/LA adventures came with no tutorial. They did well despite that.
This goes way beyond the markets and business, but turns right back into the state of the industry. Nobody even bothers to experiment anymore. Why do games need tutorial, seriously? Why are there so many ways to rotate camera? Why are there 4 ways to move around? 7 ways to use an object? 16 ways to interact with world?
Because there is no forethought given into it. Interaction design is something unheard of in game development, when it became part of business process in other branches long time ago. Sure, like all business practices it's abused by some, misunderstood by others, ignored by third. Yet it exists, and it's proven.
Unfortunately, gaming industry rarely allows external experience to penetrate it. Unit testing is still an exotic feature to have.
Yes, magazines and players complain over tutorials. But what exactly are they complaining about? Is it really about "not enough"?
Tutorials are there for people who need them. If u feel u do not why not skip. But as stated above it is a great tool for those that need it. I am not talking about a bad tutorial obviously.
For a fact I seen alot of people come and go through star wars and say this game just isn't for me. Upon further discussion it was just too much for them. This is no exaggaration to make a point. SWG could of kept alot of these customers if there was just some help for the people that needed it. I myself had a tough time in SWG. I came from a FPS game and this was all new to me. I depended alot on my bother and guildmates for help. They were alot of help. But not everyone that tries this game will run into the kind of support I had.
Also I am talikng about a user friendly tutorial ofcourse to help a player fit right in. As u stated some may be a bit too lengthy etc but if you felt comfortable with different sections I don't see why anyone would have to be FORCED to go through all of it.
Tutorials are there for people who need them. If u feel u do not why not skip. But as stated above it is a great tool for those that need it. I am not talking about a bad tutorial obviously.
For a fact I seen alot of people come and go through star wars and say this game just isn't for me. Upon further discussion it was just too much for them. This is no exaggaration to make a point. SWG could of kept alot of these customers if there was just some help for the people that needed it. I myself had a tough time in SWG. I came from a FPS game and this was all new to me. I depended alot on my bother and guildmates for help. They were alot of help. But not everyone that tries this game will run into the kind of support I had.
Also I am talikng about a user friendly tutorial ofcourse to help a player fit right in. As u stated some may be a bit too lengthy etc but if you felt comfortable with different sections I don't see why anyone would have to be FORCED to go through all of it.