Erm, actually, I don't draw the line, the government does. That's one of the reasons it's there for is it not?
You can't really take this and apply it to all kinds of situations because it's a rather unique situation. If blacks have domestic violence, they get arrested like everyone else. They don't claim that it's part of their religion so they are allowed to do it. If you just don't think your neighbour's religion is right, that's one thing. If your neighbour is teaching his children that they have to be sex slaves in order to get into heaven, then you absolutely should call the authorities. The problem is you're taking the whole argument out of contest and you're trying to say that the government is trying to turn these polygamists into orthodox catholics or something. That's not it at all. It's not about making anyone follow a specific path, it's about preventing them from doing harm.
These kids that protested were also probably taught from age 5 that polygamy is the only path to heaven. A molested child might say nothing happened to him/her, does that mean it should be left alone? Second of all, everyone likes to cry 'you're forcing your lifestyle on them', but we're not. We're simply saying that they can't practice a harmful part of their lifestyle. They are still free in all other decisions. And who am I to tell someone what life they can live? Well by myself, just a guy. However, I am a functioning part of the society I live in. The society of the US has elected officials, who have chosen the representatives, who have made these laws. Thus, through the process of the elections and such, the society of the US has decided that it doesn't want polygamy to be a part of that society.
How are these people violating my rights? Well lets see. They are defaming my religion, but you guys like to attack anything christian anyways right? (Lets ignore the hypocracy for now). They oppress the women in their society. Marry children at ages as young as 13. Trade off children like property. They have an insanely high amount of child molestation. But lets ignore all that since you guys like to do so anyways. The fact is they represent a threat to 'my' society. (By that I mean law-abiding, moral, functional members of the society) First of all, they are attempting to subvert the laws by claiming it's religion. They cause conflict with the non-polygamist societies around them. Finally, they're breaking the law in a number of ways, and you don't get to just decide you don't have to follow the laws.
In conclusion, I happily invite all these polygamist families to think about moving to the middle east where the people are far more accepting of such practices. And we all know that nobody's rights are infringed at all over there.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Religion shoule be able to teach what it wants as long as it or its members are not going out to hurt others. If a church teaches that blacks are evil, as long as no one goes and hurts blacks who cares. You wind up with a group of morons who stay to themselves. As soon as they hurt blacks you prosecute and remove/change the religion.
So, in conclusion, if no one gets hurt, ideas can be taught no matter what htey are.
Originally posted by Blurr Erm, actually, I don't draw the line, the government does. That's one of the reasons it's there for is it not? You can't really take this and apply it to all kinds of situations because it's a rather unique situation. If blacks have domestic violence, they get arrested like everyone else. They don't claim that it's part of their religion so they are allowed to do it. If you just don't think your neighbour's religion is right, that's one thing. If your neighbour is teaching his children that they have to be sex slaves in order to get into heaven, then you absolutely should call the authorities. The problem is you're taking the whole argument out of contest and you're trying to say that the government is trying to turn these polygamists into orthodox catholics or something. That's not it at all. It's not about making anyone follow a specific path, it's about preventing them from doing harm. These kids that protested were also probably taught from age 5 that polygamy is the only path to heaven. A molested child might say nothing happened to him/her, does that mean it should be left alone? Second of all, everyone likes to cry 'you're forcing your lifestyle on them', but we're not. We're simply saying that they can't practice a harmful part of their lifestyle. They are still free in all other decisions. And who am I to tell someone what life they can live? Well by myself, just a guy. However, I am a functioning part of the society I live in. The society of the US has elected officials, who have chosen the representatives, who have made these laws. Thus, through the process of the elections and such, the society of the US has decided that it doesn't want polygamy to be a part of that society. How are these people violating my rights? Well lets see. They are defaming my religion, but you guys like to attack anything christian anyways right? (Lets ignore the hypocracy for now). They oppress the women in their society. Marry children at ages as young as 13. Trade off children like property. They have an insanely high amount of child molestation. But lets ignore all that since you guys like to do so anyways. The fact is they represent a threat to 'my' society. (By that I mean law-abiding, moral, functional members of the society) First of all, they are attempting to subvert the laws by claiming it's religion. They cause conflict with the non-polygamist societies around them. Finally, they're breaking the law in a number of ways, and you don't get to just decide you don't have to follow the laws. In conclusion, I happily invite all these polygamist families to think about moving to the middle east where the people are far more accepting of such practices. And we all know that nobody's rights are infringed at all over there.
That's the most ethnocentric thing I have read in a long time.
Originally posted by porgie Originally posted by abbaba All rights have limits. Just because I say that my religion says I should murder people doesn't mean the constitution protects my "religious belief" in murder. Marriage can and has been regulated. The stuff that goes on in some polygamist families, i.e. Domestic Violence, molestation, incest, etc., it's really too bad. I read somewhere that some genetic disease that is normally present in like .000002 percent of the population is present in 40% of a single polygamist family because they have inbred so bad.
You listed things that you say go on in polygamist families. I can counter that by saying that they also go on in normal families as well. The things you listed are also infringement on others Constitutional rights. Therefore, they are illegal. If you can find a polygamist family that doesn't have those things going on inside their family then you have found a case where there is no direct correlation between the polygamists and the crimes you've outlined. Therefore, you are punishing people for crimes they have not nor intend to commit. This is a violation of their rights.
And as far as that genetic disease thing goes, I would have to see the reports on that from a reliable unbiased source. Because I know that people can marry their cousins and there is no greater chance of a birth defect being present in their offspring.
(The article itself is from the Salt Lake Tribune, I hope that's good enough for reliable and unbiased.)
And not just cousins, it's daughters and granddaughters. If one person marries his cousin, something bad probably won't happen. But if one family all marries their cousins, and those offspring marry their cousins, and those offspring marry their cousins...well, things get a little ugly.
I found that site quite interesting, thanks for posting the link. I was surprised to find that things are bad enough to require charity organizations to help the victims of polygamy. I'm ardently against polygamy and I had no idea the extent that it goes.
I found another interesting link on the childbrides.org site, http://www.bankingonheaven.com/ The site is for a documentary called Banking on Heaven, which gives us a look into the polygamist lifestyle and the problems it causes.
Click 'Play Trailer' to get an idea of what this is all about. I don't know how someone can so ardently support these people after watching something like that.
And yet I'm shocked again to find that their "Prophet" also happens to apparently be on the FBI's top 10 most wanted. Perhaps it's something to do with the rumoured human incenerator in the 'temple' that is mentioned on the trailer.
I would love to see AlexAmore's (or any of the other polygamy supporters') thoughts on this information.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Originally posted by Blurr Wow abbaba. I found that site quite interesting, thanks for posting the link. I was surprised to find that things are bad enough to require charity organizations to help the victims of polygamy. I'm ardently against polygamy and I had no idea the extent that it goes. I found another interesting link on the childbrides.org site, http://www.bankingonheaven.com/ The site is for a documentary called Banking on Heaven, which gives us a look into the polygamist lifestyle and the problems it causes. I dunno about that Blurr...There was a woman that mentioned Hitler. Blurr, in your terms doesn't that mean the documentary is void? (Sarcasm)
Click 'Play Trailer' to get an idea of what this is all about. I don't know how someone can so ardently support these people after watching something like that. And yet I'm shocked again to find that their "Prophet" also happens to apparently be on the FBI's top 10 most wanted. Perhaps it's something to do with the rumoured human incenerator in the 'temple' that is mentioned on the trailer. I would love to see AlexAmore's (or any of the other polygamy supporters') thoughts on this information. LOL does that mean defense attorneys support murder, rape, molestation, pimping, underage drinking...ect because they defend them? Nice try Blurr. I love your little propaganda you spew from your mouth. You don't listen (I'm not surprised though). I told you I am not a Polygamy supporter. I support freedom, therefore the tenet/practice (not religion) called "Polygamy" which means marrying multiple spouses must be allowed because it does NOT hurt anyone. I told you before that what happens after the marriage is what happens AFTER the marriage and is NOT Polygamy. I have been talking about the marriage part and the marriage part ONLY. Walking down the f'ing aisle and saying "I do" with multiple spouses is what i'm talking about and THAT IS Polygamy.
You say that by outlawing the practice of walking down the aisle and saying "I do" is going to prevent molestation and rape. That is one of dumbest things I have ever heard. If people want to rape and molest they don't need to get married.
You must realize that secular people might want to marry multiple spouses. What do you say about that? Marriage is simply a way to announce ones union, it really has nothing to do with Christianity or any other religion, because like I said it can be completely secular. There goes your stupid little argument that goes "But my religion says I should kill people".
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Actually Alex, you are the one saying that they should be allowed to do it specifically because they say it's their religion. You might wanna read your posts over again. You were the one supporting this religion's right to break the law and create this kind of community. You supported the guy who apparently has his own human incinerator. Guess you're the dirty nazi now aren't you? I guess that's one of the other things you have conveniently forgotten, all your "their religion is protected" stuff.
Why don't you cry some more that the people trying to shut these slavery religions down are actually just trying to force their own religion on the people.
How blind do you have to be to see that polygamy leads to the oppression of women and the rest of the things described by those sites? Show me a fully functioning polygamist society that doesn't oppress anyone in any way.
Perhaps you're too nearsighted to realize that polygamy leads to these things. But see, the people who make the laws aren't as blind or retarded.
That's why there are laws which punish those who cause these things to happen. If I sell crack to some guy who then goes out and kills someone while he's high, I'm held responsible.
But then again, you seem to live in an idealistic fantasy world where nobody hurts anyone or abuses their power. The fact is the people who founded the US (the same ones you think you're smarter than) outlawed polygamy because they saw what it does.
Oh and don't talk to me about propoganda with all your anti-christian railing and so forth. I'm starting to think you only come to these boards to try and advance your political agenda.
Are you so naieve that you will leave an open flame near a child because the child isn't supposed to touch it and the fire is technically not hurting anyone?
Don't even bother replying, you've changed your stance and your 'rules' so often that you really have no credibility anymore. Go promote some other act that causes slavery, child molestation, rampant genetic disorders, and the complete oppression of a gender, you nazi.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Originally posted by Blurr Actually Alex, you are the one saying that they should be allowed to do it specifically because they say it's their religion. You might wanna read your posts over again. You were the one supporting this religion's right to break the law and create this kind of community. You supported the guy who apparently has his own human incinerator. Guess you're the dirty nazi now aren't you? I guess that's one of the other things you have conveniently forgotten, all your "their religion is protected" stuff. Why don't you cry some more that the people trying to shut these slavery religions down are actually just trying to force their own religion on the people. How blind do you have to be to see that polygamy leads to the oppression of women and the rest of the things described by those sites? Show me a fully functioning polygamist society that doesn't oppress anyone in any way. Perhaps you're too nearsighted to realize that polygamy leads to these things. But see, the people who make the laws aren't as blind or retarded. That's why there are laws which punish those who cause these things to happen. If I sell crack to some guy who then goes out and kills someone while he's high, I'm held responsible. But then again, you seem to live in an idealistic fantasy world where nobody hurts anyone or abuses their power. The fact is the people who founded the US (the same ones you think you're smarter than) outlawed polygamy because they saw what it does. Oh and don't talk to me about propoganda with all your anti-christian railing and so forth. I'm starting to think you only come to these boards to try and advance your political agenda. Are you so naieve that you will leave an open flame near a child because the child isn't supposed to touch it and the fire is technically not hurting anyone? Don't even bother replying, you've changed your stance and your 'rules' so often that you really have no credibility anymore. Go promote some other act that causes slavery, child molestation, rampant genetic disorders, and the complete oppression of a gender, you nazi.
Blurr, I think it's been well established that you are a fan of big government and using the government to push your agenda on others that you disagree with. You're a great American Blurr Hannity.
Originally posted by Blurr Actually Alex, you are the one saying that they should be allowed to do it specifically because they say it's their religion. Because of their religion, but also because Polygamy is a practice which hurts nobody. Look up the definition so you understand what Polygamy is EXACTLY.
ill give you a hint: It has to do with walking down an aisle and saying "I do"....nothing else. You might wanna read your posts over again. You were the one supporting this religion's right to break the law and create this kind of community. I went over this a million times in a million different ways.
They have this "kind of community" already. Outlawing marriage hasn't done jack sh*t and it will never do jack sh*t because it doesn't prevent jack sh*t. Your view on prevention is twisted. You supported the guy who apparently has his own human incinerator. Guess you're the dirty nazi now aren't you? Yeah i'm a Nazi because I support different religions being able to get married. Seig Heil! Seig Heil! Seig Heil! I guess that's one of the other things you have conveniently forgotten, all your "their religion is protected" stuff. I didn't forget. I already went over it. Why don't you cry some more that the people trying to shut these slavery religions down are actually just trying to force their own religion on the people. How blind do you have to be to see that polygamy leads to the oppression of women and the rest of the things described by those sites? Show me a fully functioning polygamist society that doesn't oppress anyone in any way. LOL!!!!!!!! Are you f'ing kidding me? If I showed you one or I just showed you the article on page 1 of this thread then you would say: "They are brainwashed".
You must realize there are loving families in regular communities that have multiple spouses. They WON'T speak out; I go over this down below. Perhaps you're too nearsighted to realize that polygamy leads to these things. But see, the people who make the laws aren't as blind or retarded. Perhaps you are too nearsighted to realize that there are families that live in normal communities that have an extra mom or dad...maybe more.
Perhaps you are brainwashed by the news. The propaganda is so fierce that if loving Polygamist families dared share their positive experience publicly, a "reign of terror" could potentially be unleashed upon them, and their children kidnapped by government. That's why there are laws which punish those who cause these things to happen. If I sell crack to some guy who then goes out and kills someone while he's high, I'm held responsible. Hmm. That's odd. But then again, you seem to live in an idealistic fantasy world where nobody hurts anyone or abuses their power. You live in a some Christian world where everyone who practices another religion (or sect) are sinners and going to Hell, therefore since the news is showing all Polygamists to be abusive then the news MUST be right! The fact is the people who founded the US (the same ones you think you're smarter than) outlawed polygamy because they saw what it does.
Oh and don't talk to me about propoganda with all your anti-christian railing and so forth. I'm starting to think you only come to these boards to try and advance your political agenda. Whatever type of Christian you are, yes, I am anti-Christian. Am I anti-christian all together? No. Unitarian Universalist Churches are more up my ally; you have to be more accepting of others. Are you so naieve that you will leave an open flame near a child because the child isn't supposed to touch it and the fire is technically not hurting anyone? The children in the article on page one don't seem to be hurt. Abuse is one thing, polygamy is another. Get it through your head and stop getting brainwashed by the news. Don't even bother replying, you've changed your stance and your 'rules' so often that you really have no credibility anymore. Go promote some other act that causes slavery, child molestation, rampant genetic disorders, and the complete oppression of a gender, you nazi. The act of marriage/Polygamy causes jack sh*t.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Blurr, I think it's been well established that you are a fan of big government and using the government to push your agenda on others that you disagree with. You're a great American Blurr Hannity.
Reavo, I know you're not a bad guy, sometimes you have pretty intelligent things to say. I must say, however, that what you just said there is probably the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
I support obeying the law? ohnoes! crucify me quick
I'm against these people practicing a perverted form of religion where they beat their women into submission, have sex with their children, and actually kill babies? ohnoes! I must be a fan of big government.
Heaven forbid that I shouldn't agree with you guys completely. Heaven forbid that I should make my own judgements and have my own opinions instead of joining the 'rebels' in the fight against government. Anyone who doesn't want to bring down the establishment must be a nazi right?
I mean, it's not like someone could actually think the government does good things. That would be like they had their own opinion that they thought up themselves.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Originally posted by AlexAmore Originally posted by Blurr Because of their religion, but also because Polygamy is a practice which hurts nobody. Look up the definition so you understand what Polygamy is EXACTLY.
ill give you a hint: It has to do with walking down an aisle and saying "I do"....nothing else. Yeah because the fact that they're trying to use their religion as a defense means they're not talking about religion at all. I went over this a million times in a million different ways.
They have this "kind of community" already. Outlawing marriage hasn't done jack sh*t and it will never do jack sh*t because it doesn't prevent jack sh*t. Your view on prevention is twisted.
Well gee Mr. Wizard, they have this really bad community where they kill babies and the like. I know, lets make their lifestyle more legal! Infact, all the rest of the laws in the country still get broken on a daily basis, they don't prevent anything so lets just get rid of all of them too.
Seig Heil! Seig Heil! Seig Heil! Said like a true supporter of the guy with the human incinerator. And actually, if I waz a nazi, you would be just showing your prejudice, and you'd be infringing on my rights, oppressing me because of my beliefs. So how do you like being exposed as a giant hypocrite?
I didn't forget. I already went over it. Yeah and then changed your position the second it didn't work for you. LOL!!!!!!!! Are you f'ing kidding me? If I showed you one or I just showed you the article on page 1 of this thread then you would say: "They are brainwashed".
You must realize there are loving families in regular communities that have multiple spouses. They WON'T speak out; I go over this down below. Find one written by an impartial bystander. I don't expect you'll find that though.
Perhaps you are too nearsighted to realize that there are families that live in normal communities that have an extra mom or dad...maybe more.
Perhaps you are brainwashed by the news. The propaganda is so fierce that if loving Polygamist families dared share their positive experience publicly, a "reign of terror" could potentially be unleashed upon them, and their children kidnapped by government.
Let me guess, the CIA is putting radio signals through your fillings, and the moon landing was a hoax, and flu shots are really mind control, right? You get more ludicrous by the minute.
Hmm. That's odd. Yup, see when the majority of polygamist communities end up involved with slavery, molestation, and murder, It's odd that people with morals might want to outlaw it.
You live in a some Christian world where everyone who practices another religion (or sect) are sinners and going to Hell, therefore since the news is showing all Polygamists to be abusive then the news MUST be right! There you go trying to persecute my beliefs again. Hypocrite.
Whatever type of Christian you are, yes, I am anti-Christian. Am I anti-christian all together? No. Unitarian Universalist Churches are more up my ally; you have to be more accepting of others. Ladies and gentlemen, here we see the typical New Age Hypocrite in his natural habitat. Once again, he attacks a religion because it is not his own.
The children in the article on page one don't seem to be hurt. Abuse is one thing, polygamy is another. Get it through your head and stop getting brainwashed by the news. Yeah because the news brainwashes someone much easier than say, a religion telling them that if they don't say good things about the community God (or their leader) will kill them. The news is more brainwashing than your father beating you into submission and your mother telling you that you must make the community look good. What's that? Oh, it's the phone. Oh really? Reality is on the phone with a wake up call for alex.
The act of marriage/Polygamy causes jack sh*t. Too bad there's so much evidence to the contrary.
LOL!!!!!!!! Are you f'ing kidding me? If I showed you one or I just showed you the article on page 1 of this thread then you would say: "They are brainwashed".
You must realize there are loving families in regular communities that have multiple spouses. They WON'T speak out; I go over this down below. Find one written by an impartial bystander. I don't expect you'll find that though.
Perhaps you are too nearsighted to realize that there are families that live in normal communities that have an extra mom or dad...maybe more.
Perhaps you are brainwashed by the news. The propaganda is so fierce that if loving Polygamist families dared share their positive experience publicly, a "reign of terror" could potentially be unleashed upon them, and their children kidnapped by government.
Let me guess, the CIA is putting radio signals through your fillings, and the moon landing was a hoax, and flu shots are really mind control, right? You get more ludicrous by the minute.
Hmm. That's odd. Yup, see when the majority of polygamist communities end up involved with slavery, molestation, and murder, It's odd that people with morals might want to outlaw it.
You live in a some Christian world where everyone who practices another religion (or sect) are sinners and going to Hell, therefore since the news is showing all Polygamists to be abusive then the news MUST be right! There you go trying to persecute my beliefs again. Hypocrite.
Whatever type of Christian you are, yes, I am anti-Christian. Am I anti-christian all together? No. Unitarian Universalist Churches are more up my ally; you have to be more accepting of others. Ladies and gentlemen, here we see the typical New Age Hypocrite in his natural habitat. Once again, he attacks a religion because it is not his own.
The children in the article on page one don't seem to be hurt. Abuse is one thing, polygamy is another. Get it through your head and stop getting brainwashed by the news. Yeah because the news brainwashes someone much easier than say, a religion telling them that if they don't say good things about the community God (or their leader) will kill them. The news is more brainwashing than your father beating you into submission and your mother telling you that you must make the community look good. What's that? Oh, it's the phone. Oh really? Reality is on the phone with a wake up call for alex.
The act of marriage/Polygamy causes jack sh*t. Too bad there's so much evidence to the contrary.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Originally posted by Blurr Originally posted by AlexAmore Originally posted by Blurr Because of their religion, but also because Polygamy is a practice which hurts nobody. Look up the definition so you understand what Polygamy is EXACTLY.
ill give you a hint: It has to do with walking down an aisle and saying "I do"....nothing else. Yeah because the fact that they're trying to use their religion as a defense means they're not talking about religion at all. Whatever the hell that is suppose to mean.... I went over this a million times in a million different ways.
They have this "kind of community" already. Outlawing marriage hasn't done jack sh*t and it will never do jack sh*t because it doesn't prevent jack sh*t. Your view on prevention is twisted.
Well gee Mr. Wizard, they have this really bad community where they kill babies and the like. I know, lets make their lifestyle more legal! Infact, all the rest of the laws in the country still get broken on a daily basis, they don't prevent anything so lets just get rid of all of them too.
There are also loving families in regular communities that practice Polygamy.
Seig Heil! Seig Heil! Seig Heil! Said like a true supporter of the guy with the human incinerator. I don't support the abuse. I support amendment 1 and 5. And actually, if I waz a nazi, you would be just showing your prejudice, and you'd be infringing on my rights, oppressing me because of my beliefs. So how do you like being exposed as a giant hypocrite? Whatever the Hell that's suppose to mean....
I didn't forget. I already went over it. Yeah and then changed your position the second it didn't work for you. No I didn't, I expanded. LOL!!!!!!!! Are you f'ing kidding me? If I showed you one or I just showed you the article on page 1 of this thread then you would say: "They are brainwashed".
You must realize there are loving families in regular communities that have multiple spouses. They WON'T speak out; I go over this down below. Find one written by an impartial bystander. I don't expect you'll find that though. You didn't say "impartial bystander" at first. Nice job at changing the rules after I already proved to you that there are happy Polygamists. You're not a impartial bystander so whatever I find you will just dismiss it with lots of speculation.
Perhaps you are too nearsighted to realize that there are families that live in normal communities that have an extra mom or dad...maybe more.
Perhaps you are brainwashed by the news. The propaganda is so fierce that if loving Polygamist families dared share their positive experience publicly, a "reign of terror" could potentially be unleashed upon them, and their children kidnapped by government.
Let me guess, the CIA is putting radio signals through your fillings, and the moon landing was a hoax, and flu shots are really mind control, right? You get more ludicrous by the minute. Oh semantics! Lets play that! Kidnap: To seize, detain unlawfully, to steal, carry off, or abduct by force or fraud. That's what the government does if a Polygamist family gets uncovered. If you don't like kidnap then how about "carry off"?
You also didn't acknowledge the other part. You know about the happy Polygamists that you deny exist (because of the trouble they will get into if they speak up)?
Hmm. That's odd. Yup, see when the majority of polygamist communities end up involved with slavery, molestation, and murder, It's odd that people with morals might want to outlaw it. Ahhh key word here is "majority". The Constitution was made to protect the minority. You admit that you think it's the "majority" therefore you admit that there are Polygamist communities that are loving, not to mention the Polygamist families that live only together in normal communities.
You live in a some Christian world where everyone who practices another religion (or sect) are sinners and going to Hell, therefore since the news is showing all Polygamists to be abusive then the news MUST be right! There you go trying to persecute my beliefs again. Hypocrite. It's true that Christians believe other religions and sects are going to Hell. Once you learned about Polygamist families abusing eachother then you must have believed it, no? Unfortunately you only hear about the abusive families because thats what the news does, report on the bad stuff. If the news reports on a happy polygamist family then the news doesn't get very good ratings and the Polygamist familiy gets known to authorities; it's a lose-lose.
Whatever type of Christian you are, yes, I am anti-Christian. Am I anti-christian all together? No. Unitarian Universalist Churches are more up my ally; you have to be more accepting of others. Ladies and gentlemen, here we see the typical New Age Hypocrite in his natural habitat. Once again, he attacks a religion because it is not his own. I'm not part of UUC but yes they are more up my ally. Anyways you've been attacking Polygamists like crazy.
The children in the article on page one don't seem to be hurt. Abuse is one thing, polygamy is another. Get it through your head and stop getting brainwashed by the news. Yeah because the news brainwashes someone much easier than say, a religion telling them that if they don't say good things about the community God (or their leader) will kill them. The news is more brainwashing than your father beating you into submission and your mother telling you that you must make the community look good. What's that? Oh, it's the phone. Oh really? Reality is on the phone with a wake up call for alex.
Reality is not all Polygamists are like that.
The act of marriage/Polygamy causes jack sh*t. Too bad there's so much evidence to the contrary. Where is the evidence that the act of marriage (walking down an aisle) causes rape?
If a Christian wife gets married to a Christian man and the man rapes the woman do we call it "rape" or do we call it an "act of Christianity" or an "act of Marriage"?
LOL!!!!!!!! Are you f'ing kidding me? If I showed you one or I just showed you the article on page 1 of this thread then you would say: "They are brainwashed".
You must realize there are loving families in regular communities that have multiple spouses. They WON'T speak out; I go over this down below. Find one written by an impartial bystander. I don't expect you'll find that though. You didn't say "impartial bystander" at first. Nice job at changing the rules after I already proved to you that there are happy Polygamists. You're not a impartial bystander so whatever I find you will just dismiss it with lots of speculation.
Perhaps you are too nearsighted to realize that there are families that live in normal communities that have an extra mom or dad...maybe more.
Perhaps you are brainwashed by the news. The propaganda is so fierce that if loving Polygamist families dared share their positive experience publicly, a "reign of terror" could potentially be unleashed upon them, and their children kidnapped by government.
Let me guess, the CIA is putting radio signals through your fillings, and the moon landing was a hoax, and flu shots are really mind control, right? You get more ludicrous by the minute. Oh semantics! Lets play that! Kidnap: To seize, detain unlawfully, to steal, carry off, or abduct by force or fraud. That's what the government does if a Polygamist family gets uncovered. If you don't like kidnap then how about "carry off"?
You also didn't acknowledge the other part. You know about the happy Polygamists that you deny exist (because of the trouble they will get into if they speak up)?
Hmm. That's odd. Yup, see when the majority of polygamist communities end up involved with slavery, molestation, and murder, It's odd that people with morals might want to outlaw it. Ahhh key word here is "majority". The Constitution was made to protect the minority. You admit that you think it's the "majority" therefore you admit that there are Polygamist communities that are loving, not to mention the Polygamist families that live only together in normal communities.
You live in a some Christian world where everyone who practices another religion (or sect) are sinners and going to Hell, therefore since the news is showing all Polygamists to be abusive then the news MUST be right! There you go trying to persecute my beliefs again. Hypocrite. It's true that Christians believe other religions and sects are going to Hell. Once you learned about Polygamist families abusing eachother then you must have believed it, no? Unfortunately you only hear about the abusive families because thats what the news does, report on the bad stuff. If the news reports on a happy polygamist family then the news doesn't get very good ratings and the Polygamist familiy gets known to authorities; it's a lose-lose.
Whatever type of Christian you are, yes, I am anti-Christian. Am I anti-christian all together? No. Unitarian Universalist Churches are more up my ally; you have to be more accepting of others. Ladies and gentlemen, here we see the typical New Age Hypocrite in his natural habitat. Once again, he attacks a religion because it is not his own. I'm not part of UUC but yes they are more up my ally. Anyways you've been attacking Polygamists like crazy.
The children in the article on page one don't seem to be hurt. Abuse is one thing, polygamy is another. Get it through your head and stop getting brainwashed by the news. Yeah because the news brainwashes someone much easier than say, a religion telling them that if they don't say good things about the community God (or their leader) will kill them. The news is more brainwashing than your father beating you into submission and your mother telling you that you must make the community look good. What's that? Oh, it's the phone. Oh really? Reality is on the phone with a wake up call for alex.
Reality is not all Polygamists are like that.
The act of marriage/Polygamy causes jack sh*t. Too bad there's so much evidence to the contrary. Where is the evidence that the act of marriage (walking down an aisle) causes rape?
If a Christian wife gets married to a Christian man and the man rapes the woman do we call it "rape" or do we call it an "act of Christianity" or an "act of Marriage"?
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Originally posted by reavo Blurr, I think it's been well established that you are a fan of big government and using the government to push your agenda on others that you disagree with. You're a great American Blurr Hannity.
Reavo, I know you're not a bad guy, sometimes you have pretty intelligent things to say. I must say, however, that what you just said there is probably the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Whee!!! Purple. No, it wasn't dumb, and I'll tell you why with my explanations below. Read on.
I support obeying the law? ohnoes! crucify me quick Who doesn't support obeying the law, unless you're an anarchist. Laws are good. And I'm not condoning breaking them. But I do condone people protesting a law that is contradictory to the ideals of this nation. And anti-polygamy laws are contradictory to American ideals of freedom. I was just watching Tucker Carlson on MSNBC and he did a story on this. I don't know if you saw it, but if not I wish you did. He explained why these laws are anti-American in an excellent way. If they show him later tonight again I invite you to watch it.
I'm against these people practicing a perverted form of religion where they beat their women into submission, have sex with their children, and actually kill babies? ohnoes! I must be a fan of big government. If you are against practicing what you consider a perverted form of religion, then you have every right to not practice it yourself. However, in America people are free to practice religion in any way they see fit as long as they do not infringe on other people's rights. Someone practicing polygamy is not infringing on anyone elses rights. If there is a person practicing polygamy who beats women, has sex with children, or kills babies, then those are infringement of someone elses rights. Now, if you do not agree with someone and instead of just living your life in an opposite way you choose to support the government stopping someone you disagree with then you are a fan of big government and not allowing other poeple their freedom. I read something Porgie wrote the other day that was really cool. He said that in a country that practices personal freedom it means you have 100% control of your life, decisions, and property. And that in turn means you have 0% control of others life, decisions, and property.
Heaven forbid that I shouldn't agree with you guys completely. Heaven forbid that I should make my own judgements and have my own opinions instead of joining the 'rebels' in the fight against government. Anyone who doesn't want to bring down the establishment must be a nazi right? Nazi's were big government. They were an authoritarian regime. That's what happens when you have government making decisions for the people. It's the reason we broke away from the king of England and established a radical new form of government based on personal freedoms. And even if I disagree with you, I would never consider using the government to make you act how I think you should act. I don't know what's best for you, and you don't know what's best for me. I support you forming your own judgements and having your own opinions that are right for you. And even if I disagree with you on how you live your life, if someone were to try to take that choice away from you I would support you having the freedom to make your own decisions. Especially if it were the government trying to make you act a certain way. I'll take your back everytime in that situation.
I mean, it's not like someone could actually think the government does good things. That would be like they had their own opinion that they thought up themselves. I don't think the government is qualified to do anything except protect our borders, guarantee our rights, and oversee our commerce. And even with that I consider it a necessary evil. I mean, look how crappy a job they are doing at just those tasks right now. Anything else I believe the free market should control. If you think there is a government program that has been run better than a private firm could have done it then state it. Private firms can do things cheaper and more efficiently. And that also gives us, the consumers, the choice to make a decision which service we choose. And the government doesn't have an opinion. It's not a cognitive entity. It's a tool that can be abused. And the smaller and less intrusive it is, the less damage it can do.
I love how you guys just say anyone who's not against the government is automatically a nazi. How do you expect to have any credibility whatsoever?
As for being part of an authoritarian regime, you cite breaking away from England. However up here in Canada we are still part of the British Empire, and frankly I (and many other people) would say that we are able to exercise more personal freedom than the US.
The main problem with these protesters isn't that they are speaking out. I have no problem with protests, as long as they're done in a peaceful, organized manner. Those protesters who go and throw rocks at the cops? They deserve what they get.
The problem with these protesters, that some people in this thread are ignoring, is the fact that they are trying to use their religion as a defense. They are trying to use their religion as a weight to change the laws to suit themselves. The fact is their religion is rife with things like murder, incest, slavery, and molestation. Supporting their bid to change the laws because their screwed up religion says so is insane.
I mean, if a group of Unitarian Universalists (by the way, don't you and alex both belong to that faith? And you both come here to attack other religions and the government, it doesn't make your faith look as good as you say it is. So far you two are the only ones of that faith I've met, but it doesn't bode well when you both act like you're pushing an anti-government agenda and trying to force your belief on others). Anyways where was I?
If a group of Unitarian Universalists decided to break off from the church, and kept everything the same, except they decided God says the only path to heaven is to perform bestiality, beat women into submission and collect as many slave-women as you can. Would you not be angry at them? Would you not speak out against their faith? What if they then tried to get the law changed to try and make bestiality legal, or marriage to animals legal? Would you defend them and say the law should be changed because it's part of their religion?
You guys don't seem to look at this situation in context.
I find it insane that you could support these people using their despicable form of religion as a defense to get the law changed, and say it's their right because it doesn't hurt you specifically. Do you not feel some moral obligation not to further the goals of these psychotic and twisted fanatics?
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Originally posted by Blurr As for being part of an authoritarian regime, you cite breaking away from England. However up here in Canada we are still part of the British Empire, and frankly I (and many other people) would say that we are able to exercise more personal freedom than the US. Clearly you have no idea why we broke away from them back then. Back then we were "Subjects" because we were subjected to whatever the King wanted, then we broke away and become sovereign people, then created a government to protect each individuals rights.
The main problem with these protesters isn't that they are speaking out. I have no problem with protests, as long as they're done in a peaceful, organized manner. Those protesters who go and throw rocks at the cops? They deserve what they get. The problem with these protesters, that some people in this thread are ignoring, is the fact that they are trying to use their religion as a defense. They are using the first amendment as their defense which is no problem at all. They are trying to use their religion as a weight to change the laws to suit themselves The fact is their religion is rife with things like murder, incest, slavery, and molestation. Supporting their bid to change the laws because their screwed up religion says so is insane. Polygamy is a "tenet" of any religion/secular beliefs.
I mean, if a group of Unitarian Universalists (by the way, don't you and alex both belong to that faith? No I was just saying that I am not 100% anti-christian. UUC simply have a lot of similar beliefs, but I don't attend Church. I'm not an expert on the religion so I don't know if I agree on everything. I would consider joining if I knew more information but I haven't done much research lately....maybe I will later on. And you both come here to attack other religions and the government, it doesn't make your faith look as good as you say it is. I'll attack my government all I want. So far you two are the only ones of that faith I've met, but it doesn't bode well when you both act like you're pushing an anti-government agenda and trying to force your belief on others). I'm not anti-government. I bash my government, sure, but only because of what they do which breaks the Constitution's law. I believe in "Civil Disobedience" which to you sounds like "anti-government" but is what people like Martin L. King, Ghandi, and Jesus promoted. Anyways where was I?
If a group of Unitarian Universalists decided to break off from the church, and kept everything the same, except they decided God says the only path to heaven is to perform bestiality, beat women into submission and collect as many slave-women as you can. Would you not be angry at them? Yes. Would you not speak out against their faith? I would speak out against their abuse. Would I call it Polygamy? No, because that isn't Polygamy and if I did speak out against Polygamy, then I would be speaking out against many other innocent, loving families. As an American who loves his country, I cannot throw the baby out with the bathwater when involved with people's rights. Our Constitutional Republic was specifically made to protect the minority.
What if they then tried to get the law changed to try and make bestiality legal, or marriage to animals legal? I dunno. Explain to me how that infringes upon your rights and then i'll consider it. Would you defend them and say the law should be changed because it's part of their religion? As long as it infringes upon nobody.
You guys don't seem to look at this situation in context.
I find it insane that you could support these people using their despicable form of religion as a defense to get the law changed, I support the loving Polygamist families and communities. You don't see them and for a reason....they don't want to be seen. Now it's changing; it seems they are speaking up (women seem to make up a lot of the activists). It seems like whenever Homosexuals start winning battles is when Polygamists try and take advantage of that and win battles for themselves. The argument here is "If Heather can have two mommys, then Heather can have two mommys and a daddy.". and say it's their right because it doesn't hurt you specifically. Do you not feel some moral obligation not to further the goals of these psychotic and twisted fanatics? I'm not defending any abuse, I am defending the people who feel Polygamy is right for them and love it; those people do exist! So let them marry if they want too! Blurr, you and I have come to the conclusion that marriage by itself does not prevent anything (at least I thought we did). If you want, I can go get some stats of married people who practice adultery, abuse, molestation, and rape; marriage simply does not prevent that.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Alex, it's so easy to ignore you now. Between your juvenile insults, nonsensical ramblings, rampant flip-flopping, constant hypocracy, and the fact you really don't seem to understand even half of what you (nor anyone else for that matter) is saying.
I shudder to think how many hours people might have wasted even trying to have a conversation with you.
Most of what you say doesn't even have anything to do with what the previous person has said. And please, learn to write an actual post. Don't just quote someone else and add in poorly thought attacks which miss the point of what the person was trying to say. It's just bad form.
No one can take you seriously if you can't even articulate yourself properly. Especially with all the random nonsense that you try to foist on people as being the only law because you said so.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Oh Reavo, I wanted to take up a point you made. I know it wasn't the focus of what you said but regarding the country where "... you have 100% control of your life, decisions, and property. And that in turn means you have 0% control of others life, decisions, and property."
That might be nice, but I don't think that could ever exist. That would, in effect, create a state of lawlessness and likely complete anarchy. I don't think it could be an actual society. We all need to have some sort of control over ourselves as a society. It's part of human nature that not only do we want to protect ourselves, but we want to protect our friends. I'm tired so I'm not being very articulate, but I think the point goes to that human nature won't let us have a completely self-isolated society like that.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Originally posted by Blurr Oh Reavo, I wanted to take up a point you made. I know it wasn't the focus of what you said but regarding the country where "... you have 100% control of your life, decisions, and property. And that in turn means you have 0% control of others life, decisions, and property." That might be nice, but I don't think that could ever exist. That would, in effect, create a state of lawlessness and likely complete anarchy. No it wouldn't. I don't think it could be an actual society. Of course it could. We all need to have some sort of control over ourselves as a society. Of course. That is the whole point. We have 100% control of OURSELVES in society. If you infringe upon someones else's 100% control without consent thereby taking away their control then you are being an anarchist or lawless person which goes against the concept of having 100% control on ourself and 0% control on others. It's part of human nature that not only do we want to protect ourselves, but we want to protect our friends. If your friend wants protection, fine. Your friend has a right to consent to that protection. Control is not being taken away, then at anytime, your friend can withdraw from that protection is he/she desires. I'm tired so I'm not being very articulate, but I think the point goes to that human nature won't let us have a completely self-isolated society like that. It's not "self-isolated", it's "self-empowerment".
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
"If your friend wants protection, fine. Your friend has a right to consent to that protection. Control is not being taken away, then at anytime, your friend can withdraw from that protection is he/she desires."
I wanted to address this. See, this already happened. Friends wanted to protect eachother, so they formed a group (tribe, gang, whatever). Then lots of people wanted this protection so they formed a country. Then they wanted someone to oversee the protection for them all, so they created a government. But some people will join in for the protection when they need it, then leave and avoid paying taxes or whatnot when they don't need it. These people would be taking advantage of everyone else. That's why you can't just declare you're no longer part of the country and then rejoin when you need it's help. You have to either be part of the society that helps protect everyone in it, or you get kicked out of the country.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Originally posted by Blurr Alex, you're like a child who disagrees just to disagree. Look at your statements. "No it wouldn't." "Of course it could." That's one of the reasons why you have no credibility.
I expanded upon that if you continued reading. All you did was say "I don't think it could work".
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Have any of you actually lived next to polygamists? I have, matter of fact I grew up in Salt Lake City. I knew many polygamists. I went to school with them, worked with them, and yes, partied with them. While the LDS church “officially” condemns polygamy approximately 6-9% of Mormons practice it discretely (if they were to be open about it they would be excommunicated).
Blurr, it seems to me most of the information you are using in your arguments is from anti-polygamist sources. The abuse and strife reported by is horrendous, but it is not the norm.
Yes, polygamy is against the law, but so is adultery and sodamy. These crimes are rarely prosecuted because that would serve little public good. Now arresting and prosecuting those polygamists that abuse children and such, now there is some benefit in that. Those A$$holes deserve what they get, but to say that just the simple fact that you are a polygamist you do all of those bad things is like saying, if you are a Catholic Priest then you are a kid toucher.
Polygamy laws were enacted back in the mid to late 1800s’. They were enacted to attempt to “break the back” of the Mormon Church who at the time was in control of a large area of land (the Utah territory). The Mormon religion was new and considered a threat to many who were unfamiliar with it.
Polygamy in itself is not that big of a deal, a man with more than one wife, or a woman with more than one husband... what is wrong with that? Can you see any inherent harm in that? It was made illegal because it went against society’s norms and mores. IMO it is similar to a woman baring her breasts in public. There is nothing harmful about it, but it is still illegal.
Now as far as the religion thing…it is a copout IMO. Pulling the religion card because you want to do something that is against the law is bullcrap. Then again we let Native Americans do it when they want to use peyote in some of their ceremonies.
Finally. Blurr you said something in one of your posts that interested me. You said that if you sold drugs to someone and he went and killed someone you would be responsible for that. I am not familiar with any laws like that other than Dramshop Laws that relate to alcohol. I think they would only arrest you for possession with the intent to distribute, but if you know different post a link please.
I shoot for the curve... anything above that is gravy.
" but to say that just the simple fact that you are a polygamist you do all of those bad things is like saying, if you are a Catholic Priest then you are a kid toucher."
That's something that alex actually says, but lets move past that.
I'd like to know where you heard that anti-polygamy laws were intended to 'break the back' of the Mormon church, because they did nothing of the sort. In fact, I'd argue that they made the mormon church stronger.
You do make good points WantsumBier. I'll even agree with you that Polygamy, in and of itself, is not that big of a deal. However, it's similar to Communism in the way that while both look good on paper, as an ideal, they look good. When enacted though, it's virtually impossible to prevent it from turning into greed fueld dictatorships. Part of the reason it was made illegal is that it represents a percieved threat to society's norms and the society felt they had to protect themselves against it. That's a decision I support.
I am firmly against (and always will be against) these Fundamentalist Mormons for a few main reasons. A) They practice and preach a perverted form of the Mormon religion which causes Mormons nothing but grief and trouble. They are the penultimate example of what can happen if polygamy goes out of control. Baby killing, wife-beating, child molestation, and so on. C) They are trying to use their (perverted) religion to change the laws of the country to suit them, which I cannot support in any way.
For the record, up here in Canada (atleast in Ontario) it's legal for women to bare their breasts in public. However, only hookers and risky sunbathers actually do it, and the majority of people still feel it's wrong.
I absolutely agree with you that pulling the religion card is a cop-out. That's one of the main points of my arguments in this thread.
Regarding the Native Americans (we call them First Nations up here) using peyote in their ceremonies, I think they're allowed some leeway largely because their whole society was more or less destroyed by the settlers. However one thing to note about things like peyote or alcohol (which some people have mentioned in this thread) being allowed with certain restrictions is that not only are they restricted, but they also wear off naturally. Marriage is a much more permanent (until the ensuing legal battle of divorce) thing, and you can't just sleep it off.
Regarding the law I stated about causing a crime, I don't know the exact wording of the law but I see it on shows like Law & Order and CSI and stuff like that all the time. They use the term "Felony Murder" generally because it involves a murder. Since you're interested though, I did go looking for a link and found this one on wikipedia. Essentially if you are part of causing a situation where someone gets killed, you get blamed too.
Finally I'd like to say thanks for posting on the thread WantsumBier, your input was a welcome change from what I usually see here, hehe.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Originally posted by WantsumBier Have any of you actually lived next to polygamists? I have, matter of fact I grew up in Salt Lake City. I knew many polygamists. I went to school with them, worked with them, and yes, partied with them. While the LDS church “officially” condemns polygamy approximately 6-9% of Mormons practice it discretely (if they were to be open about it they would be excommunicated).
Blurr, it seems to me most of the information you are using in your arguments is from anti-polygamist sources. The abuse and strife reported by is horrendous, but it is not the norm. Agreed.
Yes, polygamy is against the law, but so is adultery and sodamy. Actually I think sodomy is now legal, at least in Texas. These crimes are rarely prosecuted because that would serve little public good. Now arresting and prosecuting those polygamists that abuse children and such, now there is some benefit in that. Those A$$holes deserve what they get, but to say that just the simple fact that you are a polygamist you do all of those bad things is like saying, if you are a Catholic Priest then you are a kid toucher. Agreed.
Polygamy laws were enacted back in the mid to late 1800s’. They were enacted to attempt to “break the back” of the Mormon Church who at the time was in control of a large area of land (the Utah territory). The Mormon religion was new and considered a threat to many who were unfamiliar with it. Didn't know that; that's interesting.
Polygamy in itself is not that big of a deal, a man with more than one wife, or a woman with more than one husband... what is wrong with that? Can you see any inherent harm in that? It was made illegal because it went against society’s norms and mores. Agreed.
IMO it is similar to a woman baring her breasts in public. There is nothing harmful about it, but it is still illegal. Exactly and that is why there is such thing called "Civil Disobedience" that many great men and woman have done. They break the law but they don't hurt anyone in the process. Then because of that they change the laws of America, or whatever country.
Now as far as the religion thing…it is a copout IMO. Pulling the religion card because you want to do something that is against the law is bullcrap. I think it's pretty valid. African Americans pulled the "Race card" when they were breaking the law in order to change it. Women used the "Gender Card" to change laws. You could say that "They were born that way", but so are children born into religious families. If religion isn't very important then I suggest everyone here to give it up completely.
If it's so easy to change your religion, as opposed to race or sex, then I challenge you to become a muslim or buddhist monk ( make sure to take the vow of silence too) for the rest of your life. Yes you could go through the motions of being a muslim or buddhist monk but odds are you won't enjoy it or believe it, therefore our forefathers made it the number 1 amendment to the Constitution to protect one's "Freedom of Religion". Our forefathers saw that this could be very bad all by itself so they made more amendments like the 5th Amendment so everyone has liberties that are not to be infringed upon; making any "abuse through religion" an infringment upon the 5th. Then again we let Native Americans do it when they want to use peyote in some of their ceremonies.
Finally. Blurr you said something in one of your posts that interested me. You said that if you sold drugs to someone and he went and killed someone you would be responsible for that. I am not familiar with any laws like that other than Dramshop Laws that relate to alcohol. I think they would only arrest you for possession with the intent to distribute, but if you know different post a link please.
You do make good points WantsumBier. I'll even agree with you that Polygamy, in and of itself, is not that big of a deal. Wow, so it had to be WantsumBier to actually get it out of you. However, it's similar to Communism in the way that while both look good on paper, as an ideal, they look good. When enacted though, it's virtually impossible to prevent it from turning into greed fueld dictatorships. Actually no. When you think "Polygamy" what comes to your mind? I bet you get images of what you see on the news which is: Unfortunately you hardly ever see a balanced argument on the news, therefore you don't see: Remember there are Polygamy families that don't belong to religious communities. Part of the reason it was made illegal is that it represents a percieved threat to society's norms and the society felt they had to protect themselves against it. That's a decision I support. White people saw a threat to the "norm" when black and white people wanted to marry and they protected themselves by restricting it. Jesus was a percieved threat to the norm and got killed. Martin L King was a percieved threat to the norm and got killed. Now thanks to the news, that love to scare people, we have people wanting airport security to racially profile because some people don't look "normal". You see? We look like a bunch of pussies for wanting everyone to conform to normal society. Thank God we aren't a democracy or this would be even worse. We are a Republic that way people like you don't "have feelings and morals" and make everyone conform around them. You act like you are the center of the universe.
thing to note about things like peyote or alcohol (which some people have mentioned in this thread). being allowed with certain restrictions is that not only are they restricted, but they also wear off naturally. Absolutely amazing. That is one of the most positive spins on alcohol I have ever heard. Grats!
Each year, a typical young person in the United States is inundated with more than 1,000 commercials for beer and wine coolers and several thousand fictional drinking incidents on television. - Brainwashing!
Alcohol is involved in 50% of all driving fatalities.- Death!
In the United States, every 30 minutes someone is killed in an alcohol related traffic accident. -More Death!
Over 15 million Americans are dependent on alcohol. 500,000 are between the age of 9 and 12. - Underage drunks!
Each year the liquor industry spends almost $2 billion dollars on advertising and encouraging the consumption of alcoholic beverages. - Brainwashing on purpose!
Americans spend over $90 billion dollars total on alcohol each year. - Money spent to put more people in harms way!
An average American may consume over 25 gallons of beer, 2 gallons of wine, and 1.5 gallons of distilled spirits each year. - The AVERAGE american!
Pregnant women who drink are feeding alcohol to their babies. Unfortunately the underdeveloped liver of the baby can only burn alcohol at half the rate of its mother, so the alcohol stays in the baby's system twice as long. - Can we say UNDERAGED!?!
Each year students spend $5.5 billion on alcohol, more then they spend on soft drinks, tea, milk, juice, coffee, or books combined. - I wonder how responsible students are....College parties come to mind.
56% of students in grade 5 to 12 say that alcohol advertising encourages them to drink. - Underaged brainwashing!
Up to 40% of all industrial fatalities and 47% of industrial injuries can be linked to alcohol consumption and alcoholism. - More Death!
In 2000, almost 7 million persons age 12 to 20 was a binge drinker; that is about one in five persons under the legal drinking age was a binge drinker. ONE in FIVE!
The 2001 survey shows 25 million (one in ten) Americans surveyed reported driving under the influence of alcohol. This report is nearly three million more than the previous year. Among young adults age 18 to 25 years, almost 23% drove under the influence of alcohol.
Drunk driving is proving to be even deadlier then what we previously know. The latest death statistics released by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), using a new method of calculation show that 17,488 people where killed in alcohol related traffic accidents last year. This report represents nearly 800 more people where killed than the previous year.
Alcohol is the number 1 drug problem in America.
Nearly one out of 4 Americans admitted to general hospitals have alcohol problems or are undiagnosed alcoholics being diagnosed for alcohol related consequences.
Alcohol and alcohol related problems is costing the American economy at least $100 million in health care and lost of productivity every year.
Four in ten criminal offenders report alcohol as a factor in violence. FOUR in TEN!!!!
Among spouse violence victims, three out of four incidents were reported to have involved alcohol use by the offender. THREE OUT OF F*CKING FOUR!!!!! Nuff said...
In 1996, local law enforcement agencies made an estimated 1,467,300 arrests nationwide for driving under the influence of alcohol. In 1996! I wonder how much that went up since. http://www.drug-statistics.com/alcohol.htm
Alcohol is more of a threat than little religious communities that abuse, rape, and molest children and woman....and they just happen to unionize with multiple woman as well, therefore giving Polygamy a bad rep; when it was never Polygamy's fault to begin with. These communities could also not unionize with multiple woman, then we could just call them "CRAZY MONOGAMOUS/SINGLES COMMUNITIES"!!! It doesn't matter if they unionize because people will do what they want. You're blaming Polygamy but Polygamy is completely irrelevent.
Would it be ok if I outlawed Alcohol with all those stats supporting me even though there are responsible drinkers? Or should we blame the people and not the alcohol?
I guess this is what it comes down to. Do we blame Polygamy or the people for abuse? Do we blame Alcohol or the people for the deaths and abuse? Do we blame McDonalds for making people fat or do we blame the people?
I say blame the people, but you say blame Polygamy (which doesn't really exist accept in people's minds, so really it comes back to the people). So why punish a certain group of people for abuse then make everyone suffer the consquences and not allow them to practice their religious tenet (their version of marriage)? IT MAKES NO SENSE.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Comments
Erm, actually, I don't draw the line, the government does. That's one of the reasons it's there for is it not?
You can't really take this and apply it to all kinds of situations because it's a rather unique situation. If blacks have domestic violence, they get arrested like everyone else. They don't claim that it's part of their religion so they are allowed to do it. If you just don't think your neighbour's religion is right, that's one thing. If your neighbour is teaching his children that they have to be sex slaves in order to get into heaven, then you absolutely should call the authorities. The problem is you're taking the whole argument out of contest and you're trying to say that the government is trying to turn these polygamists into orthodox catholics or something. That's not it at all. It's not about making anyone follow a specific path, it's about preventing them from doing harm.
These kids that protested were also probably taught from age 5 that polygamy is the only path to heaven. A molested child might say nothing happened to him/her, does that mean it should be left alone? Second of all, everyone likes to cry 'you're forcing your lifestyle on them', but we're not. We're simply saying that they can't practice a harmful part of their lifestyle. They are still free in all other decisions. And who am I to tell someone what life they can live? Well by myself, just a guy. However, I am a functioning part of the society I live in. The society of the US has elected officials, who have chosen the representatives, who have made these laws. Thus, through the process of the elections and such, the society of the US has decided that it doesn't want polygamy to be a part of that society.
How are these people violating my rights? Well lets see. They are defaming my religion, but you guys like to attack anything christian anyways right? (Lets ignore the hypocracy for now). They oppress the women in their society. Marry children at ages as young as 13. Trade off children like property. They have an insanely high amount of child molestation. But lets ignore all that since you guys like to do so anyways. The fact is they represent a threat to 'my' society. (By that I mean law-abiding, moral, functional members of the society) First of all, they are attempting to subvert the laws by claiming it's religion. They cause conflict with the non-polygamist societies around them. Finally, they're breaking the law in a number of ways, and you don't get to just decide you don't have to follow the laws.
In conclusion, I happily invite all these polygamist families to think about moving to the middle east where the people are far more accepting of such practices. And we all know that nobody's rights are infringed at all over there.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Religion shoule be able to teach what it wants as long as it or its members are not going out to hurt others. If a church teaches that blacks are evil, as long as no one goes and hurts blacks who cares. You wind up with a group of morons who stay to themselves. As soon as they hurt blacks you prosecute and remove/change the religion.
So, in conclusion, if no one gets hurt, ideas can be taught no matter what htey are.
That's the most ethnocentric thing I have read in a long time.
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</OBAMA>
You listed things that you say go on in polygamist families. I can counter that by saying that they also go on in normal families as well. The things you listed are also infringement on others Constitutional rights. Therefore, they are illegal. If you can find a polygamist family that doesn't have those things going on inside their family then you have found a case where there is no direct correlation between the polygamists and the crimes you've outlined. Therefore, you are punishing people for crimes they have not nor intend to commit. This is a violation of their rights.
And as far as that genetic disease thing goes, I would have to see the reports on that from a reliable unbiased source. Because I know that people can marry their cousins and there is no greater chance of a birth defect being present in their offspring.
http://www.childbrides.org/abuses_sltrib_rare_gene_disorder_common.html
(The article itself is from the Salt Lake Tribune, I hope that's good enough for reliable and unbiased.)
And not just cousins, it's daughters and granddaughters. If one person marries his cousin, something bad probably won't happen. But if one family all marries their cousins, and those offspring marry their cousins, and those offspring marry their cousins...well, things get a little ugly.
Wow abbaba.
I found that site quite interesting, thanks for posting the link. I was surprised to find that things are bad enough to require charity organizations to help the victims of polygamy. I'm ardently against polygamy and I had no idea the extent that it goes.
I found another interesting link on the childbrides.org site, http://www.bankingonheaven.com/ The site is for a documentary called Banking on Heaven, which gives us a look into the polygamist lifestyle and the problems it causes.
Click 'Play Trailer' to get an idea of what this is all about. I don't know how someone can so ardently support these people after watching something like that.
And yet I'm shocked again to find that their "Prophet" also happens to apparently be on the FBI's top 10 most wanted. Perhaps it's something to do with the rumoured human incenerator in the 'temple' that is mentioned on the trailer.
I would love to see AlexAmore's (or any of the other polygamy supporters') thoughts on this information.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
FBI: Fugitive polygamist arrested near Las Vegas
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/29/polygamist.arrest.ap/index.htmlNot sure if it has been posted before. It somewhat applies to this topic so I posted it here.
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
Actually Alex, you are the one saying that they should be allowed to do it specifically because they say it's their religion. You might wanna read your posts over again. You were the one supporting this religion's right to break the law and create this kind of community. You supported the guy who apparently has his own human incinerator. Guess you're the dirty nazi now aren't you? I guess that's one of the other things you have conveniently forgotten, all your "their religion is protected" stuff.
Why don't you cry some more that the people trying to shut these slavery religions down are actually just trying to force their own religion on the people.
How blind do you have to be to see that polygamy leads to the oppression of women and the rest of the things described by those sites? Show me a fully functioning polygamist society that doesn't oppress anyone in any way.
Perhaps you're too nearsighted to realize that polygamy leads to these things. But see, the people who make the laws aren't as blind or retarded.
That's why there are laws which punish those who cause these things to happen. If I sell crack to some guy who then goes out and kills someone while he's high, I'm held responsible.
But then again, you seem to live in an idealistic fantasy world where nobody hurts anyone or abuses their power. The fact is the people who founded the US (the same ones you think you're smarter than) outlawed polygamy because they saw what it does.
Oh and don't talk to me about propoganda with all your anti-christian railing and so forth. I'm starting to think you only come to these boards to try and advance your political agenda.
Are you so naieve that you will leave an open flame near a child because the child isn't supposed to touch it and the fire is technically not hurting anyone?
Don't even bother replying, you've changed your stance and your 'rules' so often that you really have no credibility anymore. Go promote some other act that causes slavery, child molestation, rampant genetic disorders, and the complete oppression of a gender, you nazi.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
Reavo, I know you're not a bad guy, sometimes you have pretty intelligent things to say. I must say, however, that what you just said there is probably the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
I support obeying the law? ohnoes! crucify me quick
I'm against these people practicing a perverted form of religion where they beat their women into submission, have sex with their children, and actually kill babies? ohnoes! I must be a fan of big government.
Heaven forbid that I shouldn't agree with you guys completely. Heaven forbid that I should make my own judgements and have my own opinions instead of joining the 'rebels' in the fight against government. Anyone who doesn't want to bring down the establishment must be a nazi right?
I mean, it's not like someone could actually think the government does good things. That would be like they had their own opinion that they thought up themselves.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
Reavo, I know you're not a bad guy, sometimes you have pretty intelligent things to say. I must say, however, that what you just said there is probably the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
Whee!!! Purple.
No, it wasn't dumb, and I'll tell you why with my explanations below. Read on.
I support obeying the law? ohnoes! crucify me quick
Who doesn't support obeying the law, unless you're an anarchist. Laws are good. And I'm not condoning breaking them. But I do condone people protesting a law that is contradictory to the ideals of this nation. And anti-polygamy laws are contradictory to American ideals of freedom. I was just watching Tucker Carlson on MSNBC and he did a story on this. I don't know if you saw it, but if not I wish you did. He explained why these laws are anti-American in an excellent way. If they show him later tonight again I invite you to watch it.
I'm against these people practicing a perverted form of religion where they beat their women into submission, have sex with their children, and actually kill babies? ohnoes! I must be a fan of big government.
If you are against practicing what you consider a perverted form of religion, then you have every right to not practice it yourself. However, in America people are free to practice religion in any way they see fit as long as they do not infringe on other people's rights. Someone practicing polygamy is not infringing on anyone elses rights. If there is a person practicing polygamy who beats women, has sex with children, or kills babies, then those are infringement of someone elses rights. Now, if you do not agree with someone and instead of just living your life in an opposite way you choose to support the government stopping someone you disagree with then you are a fan of big government and not allowing other poeple their freedom. I read something Porgie wrote the other day that was really cool. He said that in a country that practices personal freedom it means you have 100% control of your life, decisions, and property. And that in turn means you have 0% control of others life, decisions, and property.
Heaven forbid that I shouldn't agree with you guys completely. Heaven forbid that I should make my own judgements and have my own opinions instead of joining the 'rebels' in the fight against government. Anyone who doesn't want to bring down the establishment must be a nazi right?
Nazi's were big government. They were an authoritarian regime. That's what happens when you have government making decisions for the people. It's the reason we broke away from the king of England and established a radical new form of government based on personal freedoms. And even if I disagree with you, I would never consider using the government to make you act how I think you should act. I don't know what's best for you, and you don't know what's best for me. I support you forming your own judgements and having your own opinions that are right for you. And even if I disagree with you on how you live your life, if someone were to try to take that choice away from you I would support you having the freedom to make your own decisions. Especially if it were the government trying to make you act a certain way. I'll take your back everytime in that situation.
I mean, it's not like someone could actually think the government does good things. That would be like they had their own opinion that they thought up themselves.
I don't think the government is qualified to do anything except protect our borders, guarantee our rights, and oversee our commerce. And even with that I consider it a necessary evil. I mean, look how crappy a job they are doing at just those tasks right now. Anything else I believe the free market should control. If you think there is a government program that has been run better than a private firm could have done it then state it. Private firms can do things cheaper and more efficiently. And that also gives us, the consumers, the choice to make a decision which service we choose. And the government doesn't have an opinion. It's not a cognitive entity. It's a tool that can be abused. And the smaller and less intrusive it is, the less damage it can do.
I love how you guys just say anyone who's not against the government is automatically a nazi. How do you expect to have any credibility whatsoever?
As for being part of an authoritarian regime, you cite breaking away from England. However up here in Canada we are still part of the British Empire, and frankly I (and many other people) would say that we are able to exercise more personal freedom than the US.
The main problem with these protesters isn't that they are speaking out. I have no problem with protests, as long as they're done in a peaceful, organized manner. Those protesters who go and throw rocks at the cops? They deserve what they get.
The problem with these protesters, that some people in this thread are ignoring, is the fact that they are trying to use their religion as a defense. They are trying to use their religion as a weight to change the laws to suit themselves. The fact is their religion is rife with things like murder, incest, slavery, and molestation. Supporting their bid to change the laws because their screwed up religion says so is insane.
I mean, if a group of Unitarian Universalists (by the way, don't you and alex both belong to that faith? And you both come here to attack other religions and the government, it doesn't make your faith look as good as you say it is. So far you two are the only ones of that faith I've met, but it doesn't bode well when you both act like you're pushing an anti-government agenda and trying to force your belief on others). Anyways where was I?
If a group of Unitarian Universalists decided to break off from the church, and kept everything the same, except they decided God says the only path to heaven is to perform bestiality, beat women into submission and collect as many slave-women as you can. Would you not be angry at them? Would you not speak out against their faith? What if they then tried to get the law changed to try and make bestiality legal, or marriage to animals legal? Would you defend them and say the law should be changed because it's part of their religion?
You guys don't seem to look at this situation in context.
I find it insane that you could support these people using their despicable form of religion as a defense to get the law changed, and say it's their right because it doesn't hurt you specifically. Do you not feel some moral obligation not to further the goals of these psychotic and twisted fanatics?
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
Alex, it's so easy to ignore you now. Between your juvenile insults, nonsensical ramblings, rampant flip-flopping, constant hypocracy, and the fact you really don't seem to understand even half of what you (nor anyone else for that matter) is saying.
I shudder to think how many hours people might have wasted even trying to have a conversation with you.
Most of what you say doesn't even have anything to do with what the previous person has said. And please, learn to write an actual post. Don't just quote someone else and add in poorly thought attacks which miss the point of what the person was trying to say. It's just bad form.
No one can take you seriously if you can't even articulate yourself properly. Especially with all the random nonsense that you try to foist on people as being the only law because you said so.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Oh Reavo, I wanted to take up a point you made. I know it wasn't the focus of what you said but regarding the country where "... you have 100% control of your life, decisions, and property. And that in turn means you have 0% control of others life, decisions, and property."
That might be nice, but I don't think that could ever exist. That would, in effect, create a state of lawlessness and likely complete anarchy. I don't think it could be an actual society. We all need to have some sort of control over ourselves as a society. It's part of human nature that not only do we want to protect ourselves, but we want to protect our friends. I'm tired so I'm not being very articulate, but I think the point goes to that human nature won't let us have a completely self-isolated society like that.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
Alex, you're like a child who disagrees just to disagree. Look at your statements.
"No it wouldn't."
"Of course it could."
That's one of the reasons why you have no credibility.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
"If your friend wants protection, fine. Your friend has a right to consent to that protection. Control is not being taken away, then at anytime, your friend can withdraw from that protection is he/she desires."
I wanted to address this. See, this already happened. Friends wanted to protect eachother, so they formed a group (tribe, gang, whatever). Then lots of people wanted this protection so they formed a country. Then they wanted someone to oversee the protection for them all, so they created a government. But some people will join in for the protection when they need it, then leave and avoid paying taxes or whatnot when they don't need it. These people would be taking advantage of everyone else. That's why you can't just declare you're no longer part of the country and then rejoin when you need it's help. You have to either be part of the society that helps protect everyone in it, or you get kicked out of the country.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
Have any of you actually lived next to polygamists? I have, matter of fact I grew up in Salt Lake City. I knew many polygamists. I went to school with them, worked with them, and yes, partied with them. While the LDS church “officially” condemns polygamy approximately 6-9% of Mormons practice it discretely (if they were to be open about it they would be excommunicated).
Blurr, it seems to me most of the information you are using in your arguments is from anti-polygamist sources. The abuse and strife reported by is horrendous, but it is not the norm.
Yes, polygamy is against the law, but so is adultery and sodamy. These crimes are rarely prosecuted because that would serve little public good. Now arresting and prosecuting those polygamists that abuse children and such, now there is some benefit in that. Those A$$holes deserve what they get, but to say that just the simple fact that you are a polygamist you do all of those bad things is like saying, if you are a Catholic Priest then you are a kid toucher.
Polygamy laws were enacted back in the mid to late 1800s’. They were enacted to attempt to “break the back” of the Mormon Church who at the time was in control of a large area of land (the Utah territory). The Mormon religion was new and considered a threat to many who were unfamiliar with it.
Polygamy in itself is not that big of a deal, a man with more than one wife, or a woman with more than one husband... what is wrong with that? Can you see any inherent harm in that? It was made illegal because it went against society’s norms and mores. IMO it is similar to a woman baring her breasts in public. There is nothing harmful about it, but it is still illegal.
Now as far as the religion thing…it is a copout IMO. Pulling the religion card because you want to do something that is against the law is bullcrap. Then again we let Native Americans do it when they want to use peyote in some of their ceremonies.
Finally. Blurr you said something in one of your posts that interested me. You said that if you sold drugs to someone and he went and killed someone you would be responsible for that. I am not familiar with any laws like that other than Dramshop Laws that relate to alcohol. I think they would only arrest you for possession with the intent to distribute, but if you know different post a link please.I shoot for the curve... anything above that is gravy.
" but to say that just the simple fact that you are a polygamist you do all of those bad things is like saying, if you are a Catholic Priest then you are a kid toucher."
That's something that alex actually says, but lets move past that.
I'd like to know where you heard that anti-polygamy laws were intended to 'break the back' of the Mormon church, because they did nothing of the sort. In fact, I'd argue that they made the mormon church stronger.
You do make good points WantsumBier. I'll even agree with you that Polygamy, in and of itself, is not that big of a deal. However, it's similar to Communism in the way that while both look good on paper, as an ideal, they look good. When enacted though, it's virtually impossible to prevent it from turning into greed fueld dictatorships. Part of the reason it was made illegal is that it represents a percieved threat to society's norms and the society felt they had to protect themselves against it. That's a decision I support.
I am firmly against (and always will be against) these Fundamentalist Mormons for a few main reasons. A) They practice and preach a perverted form of the Mormon religion which causes Mormons nothing but grief and trouble.
They are the penultimate example of what can happen if polygamy goes out of control. Baby killing, wife-beating, child molestation, and so on.
C) They are trying to use their (perverted) religion to change the laws of the country to suit them, which I cannot support in any way.
For the record, up here in Canada (atleast in Ontario) it's legal for women to bare their breasts in public. However, only hookers and risky sunbathers actually do it, and the majority of people still feel it's wrong.
I absolutely agree with you that pulling the religion card is a cop-out. That's one of the main points of my arguments in this thread.
Regarding the Native Americans (we call them First Nations up here) using peyote in their ceremonies, I think they're allowed some leeway largely because their whole society was more or less destroyed by the settlers. However one thing to note about things like peyote or alcohol (which some people have mentioned in this thread) being allowed with certain restrictions is that not only are they restricted, but they also wear off naturally. Marriage is a much more permanent (until the ensuing legal battle of divorce) thing, and you can't just sleep it off.
Regarding the law I stated about causing a crime, I don't know the exact wording of the law but I see it on shows like Law & Order and CSI and stuff like that all the time. They use the term "Felony Murder" generally because it involves a murder. Since you're interested though, I did go looking for a link and found this one on wikipedia. Essentially if you are part of causing a situation where someone gets killed, you get blamed too.
Finally I'd like to say thanks for posting on the thread WantsumBier, your input was a welcome change from what I usually see here, hehe.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Blurr, you also state that we "elect our politicians", however we use an electronic voting system therefore we never really know if our politician was truely elected. Here's why http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8112825559202389150&q=Election+fraud&hl=en
You do make good points WantsumBier. I'll even agree with you that Polygamy, in and of itself, is not that big of a deal.
Wow, so it had to be WantsumBier to actually get it out of you.
However, it's similar to Communism in the way that while both look good on paper, as an ideal, they look good.
When enacted though, it's virtually impossible to prevent it from turning into greed fueld dictatorships.
Actually no. When you think "Polygamy" what comes to your mind? I bet you get images of what you see on the news which is:
Unfortunately you hardly ever see a balanced argument on the news, therefore you don't see:
Remember there are Polygamy families that don't belong to religious communities.
Part of the reason it was made illegal is that it represents a percieved threat to society's norms and the society felt they had to protect themselves against it. That's a decision I support.
White people saw a threat to the "norm" when black and white people wanted to marry and they protected themselves by restricting it. Jesus was a percieved threat to the norm and got killed. Martin L King was a percieved threat to the norm and got killed. Now thanks to the news, that love to scare people, we have people wanting airport security to racially profile because some people don't look "normal". You see? We look like a bunch of pussies for wanting everyone to conform to normal society. Thank God we aren't a democracy or this would be even worse. We are a Republic that way people like you don't "have feelings and morals" and make everyone conform around them. You act like you are the center of the universe.
thing to note about things like peyote or alcohol (which some people have mentioned in this thread). being allowed with certain restrictions is that not only are they restricted, but they also wear off naturally.
Absolutely amazing. That is one of the most positive spins on alcohol I have ever heard. Grats!
Each year, a typical young person in the United States is inundated with more than 1,000 commercials for beer and wine coolers and several thousand fictional drinking incidents on television. - Brainwashing!
Alcohol is involved in 50% of all driving fatalities.- Death!
In the United States, every 30 minutes someone is killed in an alcohol related traffic accident. -More Death!
Over 15 million Americans are dependent on alcohol. 500,000 are between the age of 9 and 12. - Underage drunks!
Each year the liquor industry spends almost $2 billion dollars on advertising and encouraging the consumption of alcoholic beverages. - Brainwashing on purpose!
Americans spend over $90 billion dollars total on alcohol each year. - Money spent to put more people in harms way!
An average American may consume over 25 gallons of beer, 2 gallons of wine, and 1.5 gallons of distilled spirits each year. - The AVERAGE american!
Pregnant women who drink are feeding alcohol to their babies. Unfortunately the underdeveloped liver of the baby can only burn alcohol at half the rate of its mother, so the alcohol stays in the baby's system twice as long. - Can we say UNDERAGED!?!
Each year students spend $5.5 billion on alcohol, more then they spend on soft drinks, tea, milk, juice, coffee, or books combined. - I wonder how responsible students are....College parties come to mind.
56% of students in grade 5 to 12 say that alcohol advertising encourages them to drink. - Underaged brainwashing!
Up to 40% of all industrial fatalities and 47% of industrial injuries can be linked to alcohol consumption and alcoholism. - More Death!
In 2000, almost 7 million persons age 12 to 20 was a binge drinker; that is about one in five persons under the legal drinking age was a binge drinker. ONE in FIVE!
The 2001 survey shows 25 million (one in ten) Americans surveyed reported driving under the influence of alcohol. This report is nearly three million more than the previous year. Among young adults age 18 to 25 years, almost 23% drove under the influence of alcohol.
Drunk driving is proving to be even deadlier then what we previously know. The latest death statistics released by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), using a new method of calculation show that 17,488 people where killed in alcohol related traffic accidents last year. This report represents nearly 800 more people where killed than the previous year.
Alcohol is the number 1 drug problem in America.
Nearly one out of 4 Americans admitted to general hospitals have alcohol problems or are undiagnosed alcoholics being diagnosed for alcohol related consequences.
Alcohol and alcohol related problems is costing the American economy at least $100 million in health care and lost of productivity every year.
Four in ten criminal offenders report alcohol as a factor in violence. FOUR in TEN!!!!
Among spouse violence victims, three out of four incidents were reported to have involved alcohol use by the offender. THREE OUT OF F*CKING FOUR!!!!! Nuff said...
In 1996, local law enforcement agencies made an estimated 1,467,300 arrests nationwide for driving under the influence of alcohol. In 1996! I wonder how much that went up since.
http://www.drug-statistics.com/alcohol.htm
Alcohol is more of a threat than little religious communities that abuse, rape, and molest children and woman....and they just happen to unionize with multiple woman as well, therefore giving Polygamy a bad rep; when it was never Polygamy's fault to begin with. These communities could also not unionize with multiple woman, then we could just call them "CRAZY MONOGAMOUS/SINGLES COMMUNITIES"!!! It doesn't matter if they unionize because people will do what they want. You're blaming Polygamy but Polygamy is completely irrelevent.
Would it be ok if I outlawed Alcohol with all those stats supporting me even though there are responsible drinkers? Or should we blame the people and not the alcohol?
I guess this is what it comes down to. Do we blame Polygamy or the people for abuse? Do we blame Alcohol or the people for the deaths and abuse? Do we blame McDonalds for making people fat or do we blame the people?
I say blame the people, but you say blame Polygamy (which doesn't really exist accept in people's minds, so really it comes back to the people). So why punish a certain group of people for abuse then make everyone suffer the consquences and not allow them to practice their religious tenet (their version of marriage)? IT MAKES NO SENSE.
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"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American