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Vanguard - Still Hardcore Players ONLY
dink
Member Posts: 438
Sigil is trying to get more than hardcore gamers interested by rewarding different types of gameplay and by making some areas of the game less hardcore than others, but they've also made it very clear that to get the best stuff in the game, players will have to take huge risks that can result in item loss, xp loss/debt, corpse runs, and/or having to wait for a corpse to respawn.
Normal players hate gameplay that requires them to ante up their free time as chips. In single player games where there isn't a monthly fee involved, designers know that failing a mission and having to start over again carries a large enough sting and that the way to keep players motivated is to give them challenges to their skill that are really difficult, but that allow them to pick right back up and keep having fun playing if they fail. MMOs that HAVE monthly fees invented all of these ways to keep players playing their games for months and months even though it would be impossible to create enough game content for all of them.
These "risks" are really just timesinks. They don't make the content more challenging. They just make it more tedious, and casual gamers just won't put up with it.
The argument now is that casual gamers could play the game and never take on the "higher risk" mobs that hand out these insane timesinks if you are defeated. However, normal players are just short on real-life time; they aren't short on ambition. They still want to get all the cool gear and see all the cool content. They just want to do so at their own pace because their time is limited. Making them ante-up MORE of their free time as a "risk" is just retarded. They won't put up with it when there are so many options out there that allow for playing without timesink penalties.
Comments
I think that by creating a world that acts a bit more realistically (lots of waiting around and boredom where you chat with others, have to take long walks to discover areas, etc.) does give a lot of players (not necessarily the majority) a sense of accomplishment and immersion in the more grandiose sense. I don't have time for this kind of thing though, which is why I play Guild Wars, first person shooters and Anarchy Online (it's free, I don't care how long it takes me to hit level 200).
I do think that Sigil never made apologies or tried to market towards casual gamers. The idea that they are now trying to appeal (even if it's just slightly) towards "casual players" is a joke. The game is purposefully designed for one audience and they should stick with it. The idea that you could play casually and feel any sense of equality with the hardcore group and their L337-loot is a joke.
If you are like me or the OG, don't play this game. Unless you have spare cash and don't mind paying $15/month for playing 10-20 hours in the same period and making little headway. In which case, go ahead. In fact, just decide for yourself. Forget what I said about not playing. I'm a maniac, what do I know?
What they aren't saying is that people who hate timesinsk because they have a limited amount of time for entertainment each week will have to either be second class citizens with crap gear or deal with those timesinks.
You need to deal with the timesink or find a game who requires less time.
Sigil isn't hiding at all that Vanguard will require more time than the average MMORPGs, they are not advertising it, but everyone who is following Vanguard knows that.
Also i like to remind how phat loot is distributed within the content:
HUBER WARRIOR SET (just an example):
-HELM = Raiding drop
-BREASTPLATE = Grouping drop
-SPAULDERS = Solo - mini groups drop
-BOOTS = Raiding Quest
-GAUNTLETS = Group quest
-BRACERS = Solo quest
-WEAPON = Mix of Solo-Group-Raid quests
As you can see the point of Vanguard is that everyne needs to play all the content if they want to be UBER, it is just not Raid oriented.
Obviously if you are one of that person who is allergic to Raiding in principle, you will never have the complete set.
On the other hand, if you are an all round player and well integrated with the comunity, you will be more succesfull.
Reading this post, I wouldn't believe they're saying the world will treat all gamers equally, they're just stating there's something in the game for casual players and the ones that seek more than the casual experience.
so...
Deleted.
Current MMO of interest: Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
MMO background: EQ, UO, AO, SWG, PS, EQ2, L2,EQoA, WoW, WWIIO, and AC2
And they can. They can get way up there just as high as people who play it non-stop. As you said "on their own time". As long as they are having fun and are into the game, they'll eventually reach levels and get the gear that people who waste their lives away get. Its like playing any single player game, someone who playes it 10 hours a day is always going to finish it quicker than someone who plays it for an hour a day. Its common sense. If you feel there is a reason why they can't get the same stuff, you are wrong. I don't understand why people think that you can only get the best stuff, or reach the highest levels if you only play 30 hours a week. I know it would take you longer, but you can still reach everything those others can. I played EQ for 4 years... i never had a top level character (i got him to level 59 or 60 ) but over 4 years.... why did i keep playing?? it was b/c i was having fun... I wasn't trying to be the best or have the best stuff... it was b/c i was having fun.
Its all about having fun. As long as you are having fun, i don't see why being inferior to someone who played it 30 hours a week matters. Even if you did play for 30 hours a weeek, there would always be someone else who was better than you. Its not about bragging rights. (although some think it is... just tell them that you had a great night with your wife. b/c family is first to a game... and whoever doesn't think so needs a reality check).
If you think that it is not possible for a casual player to get the same stuff or reach the same level, then you are wrong. It is possible. Now, if a player is not having fun and only believes that they will ever have fun if they have the best stuff, then they are in the wrong genre, MMORPGs are not for them. Its like Football, its not for everyone. If you don't enjoy them then don't play them but don't bash them for what they are (its like going on a FPS site and complaining that it is dumb b/c you can only see the tip of a gun). However, If you do have fun, then no matter how much time you get to play, you will eventually be able to get up there and have some decent equipment.
I honostly don't think i'm wrong on anything I said. If someone does believe that someone who only has a limited amount of time to play can not possibly reach a high level and/or have the best equipment... then I ask that you prove it. If you can then I'm wrong, and sorry for stateing something wrong.
Current MMO of interest: Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
MMO background: EQ, UO, AO, SWG, PS, EQ2, L2,EQoA, WoW, WWIIO, and AC2
You need to deal with the timesink or find a game who requires less time.
Sigil isn't hiding at all that Vanguard will require more time than the average MMORPGs, they are not advertising it, but everyone who is following Vanguard knows that.
As you can see the point of Vanguard is that everyne needs to play all the content if they want to be UBER, it is just not Raid oriented.
Obviously if you are one of that person who is allergic to Raiding in principle, you will never have the complete set.
1. The point is that the game is still exclusive to hardcore players because casuals won't put up with corpse runs, xp debt/loss, item loss, and all of the other timesinks in the game, so why are you talking about the way they are awarding different playstyles? That's actually cool and I said that in the original post. . . I'm not sure why you are going off topic.
2. Telling people to play a game that doesn't have timesinks completely proves the point I'm making. THEY WILL FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO PLAY. People won't be fooled by the fact that the risk is only apparent when you want good drops. They'll still take those risks because they want the uber loot.
Nitsu - It's not about ability to get the best stuff. It is about willingness to play a game that places timesinks around getting the best stuff. Failure should mean that you lose and don't get a reward, have to start over, and don't see your success. It should NOT mean that you have to pull yourself out of an xp loss/debt, item loss/corpse run, etc. hole before you can even try to give it another shot.
People who hate these timesinks will not put up with them even if you reward different playstyles and you only have hardcore death penalties around the good drops/content. The point is though Sigil is making an effort to appeal to normal players, they aren't delivering real accessability that normal players crave and can easily get from other games.
Their efforts to appeal to a broader market are ultimately half-measures that will be ineffective.
name me a mmorpg that isn't a time sink.... also just because someone plays casual doesn't mean they don't want to put up with harsher penalties, thats a false assumption that is made up by some of the people that just don't like these mechanics.
I'm sure there are casual players that wont like the harsh penalties and I'm sure there are some that will....casual does not mean instant content hand delivered on a silver platter.
some people want a challenge and they want death to sting, i don't really see how that is limited just to people that play alot.
that being said, if you are a true casual and play 10 hrs per week or less then i would have to say that vanguard may not be the game for you.
it is a time sink (like every other mmorpg) and sometimes will require you to play more than 3-4 hours per setting. even though there are other things to do that can be done very casually (like crafting and diplomacy spheres) most of the content is designed for small group dungeons.
i wouldn't say vanguard is for hardcore players only, depends how you define hardcore. i think if you play semi-casual during the week (1-3 hours a night) and hardcore on the weekends (4+ hours) that you can enjoy vanguard.
you do not need to play 10 hours a day that is just BS, sure people will do that but you will not have to.
My point is, casual players should not be ignored, but should not be granded all the cookies from the jar either. Now the tricky part is balancing this just the right way - not to piss off casuals by not letting them wear anything above rusty armor, and not to piss off hardcore MMO junkies by letting godly items drop of house pets.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
However, most of the 3rd generation MMOs will be following this lead and trying to broaden the market instead of returning to the industry's timesink roots. Gods & Heroes & Age of Conan do not plan hardcore death penalties (though they will have some that make it so that you cannot zerg content and so that there is a money-sink attached to death - just like WoW).
The point I'm making is that they are going to all of this effort to try to appeal to a wider base of players, but they aren't REALLY doing it. Mainstream players will leave when they first encounter corpse runs, item loss, or xp debt/loss. It's interesting how they are trying to straddle the line and provide a lot of timesinks but in a way that they can rationalize, but ultimately players will see through it. If people hate corpse runs, xp loss, and item loss they'll hate them even if you only encounter them in the hardest parts of dungeons - and let's face it. Players don't usually die running around in the world doing normal things. Death USUALLY only occurs during challenging bits of the game. . . they've made these most challenging things the most punishing.
Simply put, why do you have a problem with this? You think all games should be alike? Or that gamers that want this type of game shouldn't have it?
It's a complex. Are you saying it shouldn't be because 5 million WoW players won't like that? So what? This isn't the game for you & them then. There are plenty more out there... but there's nothing out there for the complex gamer after SWG's fall, and folks like us are looking forward to the game for the same reasons you critize it.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
whats incorrect? do you really think every casual play doesn't want harsh death penalties? do you think that just because the majority "mainstream" want a game like wow that some will not want a game like vanguard?
there is a whole lot of people that are looking at this game, there are casuals that want to play vanguard and they know darn well of the death penalties.
yes most casual probably wont like it i will agree with you there, but who cares? enough people will like vanguard some of them semi casual players.
i don't think a person that plays truly casual will like vanguard much but i also think a person that plays truly casual (10 hrs per week or less) will not have the time to enjoy any mmorpg...at least not for very long.
Well i guess it depends on what you mean by casual players then. If casual player means someone who doesn't like death penalties then I guess i'm a hardcore player....
Current MMO of interest: Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
MMO background: EQ, UO, AO, SWG, PS, EQ2, L2,EQoA, WoW, WWIIO, and AC2
2. And if you make the game way too easy, those who want a more in depth game will find something else to play. And currently there are a lot more easy mode MMOs than there are of the deeper ones.
I told you that you need to deal with the timesink or find another game (you have 2 options).
That's what your concern was, wasn't it?
So it isnt' offtopic at all.
The second part wasn't a direct answer to you, but to all the people who were going to complain that the game is made for Raiders, because this subject would have arised otherwise, it always does.
People often associate timesinking=raiding playstile.
I was just explaining, that although Vanguard is a timesink, it is not a game only for Raiders.
So you guessed that this game require people to invest lots of time?
As I said, no one is saying the opposite, that s why you need to live with it, either putting up with the timesink or finding a game more suitted to you.
Carry on writing threads about how counter productive a game with big timesink is, it s totally useless, because we all understand the point, but the game is not gonna change, because there is people who like it the way it is (in particular Brad MCquaid likes it).
What was your point? Demonstrate that this NOT a game for Casual players?
Congratulations, You discovered the hot water.............
It seems simple to me:
* If you play very casually, it will take more time to get whatever you want, that's true for any game - even Guild Wars. Yes I also do ask myself if paying $15 a month is really worth it if you play 10 hours a month, but then again: you may like the game, your friends are playing it et cetera.
* Isn't a game an amusing timesink to start with? And are excellent drops and other accomplishements not the goals that you are working towards? Isn't it that the harder you have to work towards the goal, the sweeter it is when you finally got it?
I just hope that the challenges will not get very easy to very steep like many games have. That reaching lvl 40 is doable withing a week and reaching lvl 45 after that will require 2 months and reaching lvl 46 will also take 2 months. And of course that there are many different end-game goals, not just 1 ultimate armour set and that's it. Perhaps the 3 "spheres" will all have different end-game goals?
Anyway, I'm looking forward to this game. I like the idea of a massive world (although I don't like the flying mounts thing, for me it kind of defeats the fantasy/medieval feel to have aeroplanes around) and enough things to do for a long time. For me, in spite of the eye candy, GuildWars was horrible for the fact that you can do both campaigns within a few days with no meaningful challenges/accomplishments left whatsoever if you don't like PvP.
Cast your vote: The importance of character customisation
Brad has said many times that Sigil is making a game that they would want to play. Ok, so who is they? Do you see Sigil recruiting a lot of designers from casual or family guilds? No. They recruit from FoH and such. Thus, their game is a reflection of what hardcore players, like themselves, enjoy.
As I have said many times, there is nothing wrong with that. But there is a lot wrong with this new ad campaign designed to woo casual players with false promises and half truths. Sigil can't have their cake and eat it too. If they want to make a game for people who like to stand in the newbie yard and show off their armor, ok, go for it. But stop telling mainstream players all this bullshit about the casual/solo. small group "content."
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
You seem to consider 'difficulty' and 'how long it takes' to be synonymous. Most people outside of the MMO-grind crowd consider those to be completely seperate things; difficulty is how hard it is to accomplish something (how much skill/pattern following/thinking/etc. you need to get by it) while time is just seperate. A lot of conversations where 'casual' and 'hardcore' come up like this would work a lot better if people would be clear on some of the MMO-specific terms, like using 'difficulty' to mean 'how long it takes'.
And for once I agree completely with n2sooners, if you're going to talk about how the game is for 'casual' versus 'hardcore' players, define what you mean by the terms. Some people use 'casual' to mean nonraider and 'hardcore' to mean raider, some people use 'hardcore' to mean 'people who spend most of their waking hours playing the game' and 'casual' to mean everyone else, and so on. The discussion is pointless unless you're using the terms to mean the same thing as the person you're arguing with.
Here is what I want. Taking the time play issue to task. If time is a factor, then those players with limited time should be on a different monthly fee than the players with a lot of time. As an example, say 10 hours a week is the breakpoint on that. The players with 10 hours a week time limit pay the $15.00 a month, while those over 10 hours per week have to move up to paying $30.00 per month.
Right now the heavy cost is for new content, those pushing the content limit should pay more. That extra $15.00 per month they pay should all go to making new content for them.
Vanguard is trying to make combat a tactical. (thats what they say in their FAQs) Hopefully it will be that way so the challenge will be good. Unlike today's MMOs where it's all about time investment instead of challenge. Although any MMORPG is going to reward time investment (but in a way all games do).
With time investment as a problem. MMOs can have 2 extremes you accomplish everything in little time, as well as accomplish hardly anything in a lot of time. As with anything else it's all about findind the balance between these 2 where players fill like they can advance in enough time to keep the game interesting and being rewarded enough to keep up the excitement. Finding this spot is very difficult as every single one of us (the players) has a different opinion. That is why all MMORPGs will always have haters, Lovers... All MMOs will focus on some type of different crowd.
Another goal is to put in a challenge (which is where many MMORPGs fall short) Most have no challenge what so ever. Although you could argue that there is no way to make it a challenge as someone can just level their character up high enough to where it can kill what it needs to kill with ease (no matter how difficult a monster is too defeat). In the earlier example, end-game raids come into play as the players have reached their maximum potential, so their skill can not simply surpass that of their foe, so they must use what they have to defeat it.
If I were to make my own MMORPG I would make mobs become trivial faster so that players couldn't surpass them in level/abilities ect. Unless they didn't want a reward. (sure i would have to have alot of stuff but i think it would help the challenge part of the game.) This would make it to where challenge could be achieved by having players and their opponents more equal in skill. The rest of the challenge would come from how i did the combat system... I like tactics (I love strategy games!!) so I would deffinantly try to have some sort of tactical combat.
In closing, I know I am one that most people associate as a crazy VG fan. However, I do believe that difficulty is not achieved by making tougher punishments (corpse runs, ect.). I understand that timesinks doesn't make anything more difficult as well. The reason i like such things is b/c its fun doing corpse runs to me, Now you think i'm crazy, but i had many fun times trying to recieve my corpse in EQ, for some reason losing xp didn't really bother me too much. (I do wish that if you have a corpse out you don't lose xp if you die, as that would really suck, as it did in EQ... ). Vanguard Devs have said that they know their mistakes with EQ and timesinks... so hopefully they will come up with a system that adds challenge and keeps up a good time investment range.
If those two things can be worked out correctly, then VG will work for both the casual player and the Hardcore player. I'm not saying VG will do this, but I'm saying that its possible and i hope they do it well.
And yes... I am a crazy VG fan. (for now anyways)
Current MMO of interest: Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
MMO background: EQ, UO, AO, SWG, PS, EQ2, L2,EQoA, WoW, WWIIO, and AC2
2. And if you make the game way too easy, those who want a more in depth game will find something else to play. And currently there are a lot more easy mode MMOs than there are of the deeper ones.
1. This is true. They are demographics and the nature of demographics are such that they do not represent individuals well, but they do speak for the purchases made for certain types of people. For instance, you might know some girls who LOVE to gank people in Counter-Strike (I certainly do); however, demographics show that sales of games are highest among females for games like The Sims.
In this case, the two groups are hardcore gamers and mainstream gamers. . . casual is just one description of the mainstream market, there are more. Mainstream gamers are harder to reach as they do not actively research games and rely on word-of-mouth and personal connections to make their choices about games. Thus they are the humongous market that buys sequels and blockbusters and also wastes a lot of money on games that have box-art appel - like movie-license games. For MMOs, the market is even smaller as they are also PC users who have at least some interest in playing RPGs. The success of WoW is not only because they created a really good and accessible game but in product recognition and in developer recognition. PC players remember mainstream hits from Blizzard even if they are only entry-level PC gamers that only buy about 1-5 PC games/year.
If you look at the games that this group likes to play - blockbuster hits - then you see that they want game experiences that challenge their skill, have high production values, are easy-to-learn but not necessarily easy to master, and are fun to play and are never frustrating.
To these players, the idea of a xp loss is like having to not only start over from the beggining of Ninja Gaiden, but to have to mindlessly grind the first level of Ninja Gaiden over and over for an hour before being able to progress to higher levels of the game. Item loss or corpse runs would be like playing Madden and losing your entire offensive line until you could win another game to get them back.
Timesinks are just bad game design that mainstream players won't accept, and that's why Vanguard still remains a hardcore player only game.
2. Timesinks are not difficult. They are tedious. If they want to make really difficult tests of SKILL at the end of the game that yeild great rewards but only have the penalties of failing and NOT getting a reward and having to try again then that would be challenging. Adding in timesinks doesn't raise the challnenge level. . . unless you mean it is a challenge to think of reasons to stay subscribed to the game.