Originally posted by Findariel It seems simple to me: * If you play very casually, it will take more time to get whatever you want, that's true for any game - even Guild Wars. Yes I also do ask myself if paying $15 a month is really worth it if you play 10 hours a month, but then again: you may like the game, your friends are playing it et cetera. * Isn't a game an amusing timesink to start with? And are excellent drops and other accomplishements not the goals that you are working towards? Isn't it that the harder you have to work towards the goal, the sweeter it is when you finally got it? I just hope that the challenges will not get very easy to very steep like many games have. That reaching lvl 40 is doable withing a week and reaching lvl 45 after that will require 2 months and reaching lvl 46 will also take 2 months. And of course that there are many different end-game goals, not just 1 ultimate armour set and that's it. Perhaps the 3 "spheres" will all have different end-game goals? Anyway, I'm looking forward to this game. I like the idea of a massive world (although I don't like the flying mounts thing, for me it kind of defeats the fantasy/medieval feel to have aeroplanes around) and enough things to do for a long time. For me, in spite of the eye candy, GuildWars was horrible for the fact that you can do both campaigns within a few days with no meaningful challenges/accomplishments left whatsoever if you don't like PvP.
Findariel - Good middle ground post and there is a lot of stuff I agree with, but then that stuff sort of strays from the point.
My though is not that Vanguard will be a horrible game. They have a long beta process that will hopefully make it a really fun game. My point is really very simple. Timesinks like item loss/corpse runs, and xp debt/loss are really for a hardcore set of gamers. As long as they are committed to keeping hardcore timesinks in the game, all of the moves to try to make the game appealing to mass market customers will ultimately fail because the mass-market simply won't put up with timesinks. They'll get frustrated and go play something else.
My hope is that Vanguard will be a really amazing game (though I'm not saying it will be one. I won't judge it to be good or bad until I play a final version). My position is that even if the game is very good, it will never appeal to mainstream gamers when hardcore timesinks are included.
As I have said many times, there is nothing wrong with that. But there is a lot wrong with this new ad campaign designed to woo casual players with false promises and half truths. Sigil can't have their cake and eat it too. If they want to make a game for people who like to stand in the newbie yard and show off their armor, ok, go for it. But stop telling mainstream players all this bullshit about the casual/solo. small group "content."
One of the weird things about this at E3 was that solo/casual content = 1-3 players, small group = full group but not a raid. I really hate the whole PR redefining language thing that everyone seems to be doing. I know that this has been around forever, but I think with the success of the conservative movement and their enormous use of this tactic, it has somehow made PR people start acting like it is ethical to use. Business people should not be getting their ethics from politicians.
Originally posted by dink Originally posted by Amathe
As I have said many times, there is nothing wrong with that. But there is a lot wrong with this new ad campaign designed to woo casual players with false promises and half truths. Sigil can't have their cake and eat it too. If they want to make a game for people who like to stand in the newbie yard and show off their armor, ok, go for it. But stop telling mainstream players all this bullshit about the casual/solo. small group "content."
One of the weird things about this at E3 was that solo/casual content = 1-3 players, small group = full group but not a raid. I really hate the whole PR redefining language thing that everyone seems to be doing. I know that this has been around forever, but I think with the success of the conservative movement and their enormous use of this tactic, it has somehow made PR people start acting like it is ethical to use. Business people should not be getting their ethics from politicians.
Gimme a break. Taminy Hall? The Daily Machine? Its not new and its ot caused by the republicans. Democrats have been at least as corrupt for far longer.
Time sink means go do something else. Without consequences the rewards dont seem as big. Suppose you go to a casino, you bet pennies and win knicles. I guarantee its not as exciting as playing blackjack with hundred dollar chips. Of course people have different levels of risk they want to take. If you dont htink its worth a few attempts and your guild losing a night to down a boss, fight a different raid target, farm more till you think you are good enough. Time sinks make the way you spend your time in an MMO a game itself. You have to wait something for 15 minutes, go walk your dog, or plan out your scheduale in game. Do market research, look something up online. Undeniably there is competition between players in an MMO to do better than others, so if you are going to take the risk to get better, the conesquence of falling behind comes.
Originally posted by Xiliaro Time sink means go do something else. Without consequences the rewards dont seem as big. Suppose you go to a casino, you bet pennies and win knicles. I guarantee its not as exciting as playing blackjack with hundred dollar chips. Of course people have different levels of risk they want to take. If you dont htink its worth a few attempts and your guild losing a night to down a boss, fight a different raid target, farm more till you think you are good enough. Time sinks make the way you spend your time in an MMO a game itself. You have to wait something for 15 minutes, go walk your dog, or plan out your scheduale in game. Do market research, look something up online. Undeniably there is competition between players in an MMO to do better than others, so if you are going to take the risk to get better, the conesquence of falling behind comes.
I don't care about other guilds progress nor do I care to waste my time with time sinks. I wanna game, not start something then go cook dinner, wash cloths only to come back and see I'm still on a damn boat or something.
Originally posted by ste2000 -HELM = Raiding drop -BREASTPLATE = Grouping drop -SPAULDERS = Solo - mini groups drop -BOOTS = Raiding Quest -GAUNTLETS = Group quest -BRACERS = Solo quest -WEAPON = Mix of Solo-Group-Raid quests
As you can see the point of Vanguard is that everyne needs to play all the content if they want to be UBER, it is just not Raid oriented.
If you need to have sex with with someone on monday and on friday, your life is not "sex oriented". If you don't want to have sex on these days and you have to, then we are calling this a rape.
ANY reward inside the raiding system granting group-uberness = raid enforcement, unfair and unasked for.
Raiders doesn't deserve any group edge, especially not the finest. Best groupers deserve to be groupers, period.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Celestian I don't care about other guilds progress nor do I care to waste my time with time sinks. I wanna game, not start something then go cook dinner, wash cloths only to come back and see I'm still on a damn boat or something.
What if it's just some microwaveable mac & cheese?
Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by ste2000 -HELM = Raiding drop -BREASTPLATE = Grouping drop -SPAULDERS = Solo - mini groups drop -BOOTS = Raiding Quest -GAUNTLETS = Group quest -BRACERS = Solo quest -WEAPON = Mix of Solo-Group-Raid quests
As you can see the point of Vanguard is that everyne needs to play all the content if they want to be UBER, it is just not Raid oriented.
If you need to have sex with with someone on monday and on friday, your life is not "sex oriented". If you don't want to have sex on these days and you have to, then we are calling this a rape.
ANY reward inside the raiding system granting group-uberness = raid enforcement, unfair and unasked for.
Raiders doesn't deserve any group edge, especially not the finest. Best groupers deserve to be groupers, period.
Then go and find yourself a game where "Best groupers deserve to be groupers" period. May I suggest that masterpiece called DDO? I think that's what you are looking for. Good luck with it.
You re not gonna get "raped", nobody is forcing you to play this game. Just find something that suits more your taste...........
ste2000 - Actually the true suggestions are WoW, Gods & Heroes, and Age of Conan. You know, the games that won a ton of awards at E3 and have been getting the lion's share of attention from people who have an opportunity to see all of the upcoming games in demos. They all aren't hardcore and all have appeal to a mainstream crowd.
This is the POINT. I'm just saying that their PR to make themselves appear less hardcore will ultimately fail. If you give people the expectation that the game will be for their playsytle and then only reward hardcore encounters with the best stuff, then you STILL HAVE A HARDCORE GAME. It's like selling people Oreos, but replacing the cream-filling with lead. They are going to notice!
I'm NOT saying that Vanguard should not be hardcore. Certainly there are people who want a Western MMO that has hardcore elements (though I think that it is one of those things that people remember well in nostalgia and then hate in actuality - half of the people wanting a sting from death will change their tunes the first time they ahve to wait for 6 hours to get their corpse back or lose a powerful item until their guild has time to go on a corpse run). What I am saying is that as long as you have hardcore timesinks, no amount of obsfucation will change the fact that you have a hardcore game that won't appeal to the mass-market.
Just so you guys know, I'm probably going to get Vanguard if the quality is there. The things I saw at E3 like the bad combat animations, the empty contentless world, and the broken or not yet implemented systems need to be fixed before release before I would consider the purchase, but I wouldn't not play the game because of the hardcore timesinks. I'm a pretty hardcore gamer, so while I would hate the timesinks, I would take steps to make sure that I only die extremely rarely - like other "skilled" players, I would do everything necessary to remove the risk in the content. However, I don't like playing that way and it would piss me off. . . Anyway, my problem is that I won't be able to get my friends who I sucked into Final Fantasy XI to play (they hated xp debt and the grind and travel times - basically timesinks) to play it again. However, I can get them to play WoW and we are planning on playing the WoW expansion and G&H and AoC together. Vanguard will be my dirty little hardcore secret.
The point I'm making here is that I don't want Vanguard to fail. I'm not campaigning against it or anything. I'm saying that I think that trying to sell Vanguard as a game that has mass-market appeal is BS. It's not mass-market; it's extremely hardcore, and people will see through the BS and leave the game quickly if they continue trying to appeal to a customer that they are NOT desiging the game for. Half-measures would have worked back before the MMO market started growing, but they won't work now. There are too many other choices and there will just be more and more of them.
The market for MMOs is expected to quadruple within the next 4 years.
Originally posted by dink ste2000 - Actually the true suggestions are WoW, Gods & Heroes, and Age of Conan. You know, the games that won a ton of awards at E3 and have been getting the lion's share of attention from people who have an opportunity to see all of the upcoming games in demos. They all aren't hardcore and all have appeal to a mainstream crowd.
The suggestion is spot on since he likes games group oriented. And DDO has 95% of group content. Because of this exclusivity, DDO won the prize for crappiest game of the decade, because people like games with a bit of everything, like you said WoW, EQ2 and hopefuly Vanguard.
The only difference is that WoW and EQ2 are for "casual" players and Vangurd for what you call "hardcore". As you mentioned already there are lots of "Casual" games on the market and many more will come out in the near future, so why you want Vanguard as well to join the long queue? What game is going to cater for the so called "hardcore"? So to everyone his, and everyone is happy.
Except Anofalye, who still doesn't know what he is looking for...........don't worry one day you will find your dream game and you too will be happy
ste2000 - The demographic I'm discussing is the mainstream demographic. Casual really talks about one portion of that demographic but not all of it. When you say casual gamers, that really is more like adults with children who don't have a lot of time to play. Mainstream market also includes young adults and teenagers that would get frustrated with hardcore gameplay timesinks and would choose games that are not as punitive in their design. The casual gamers will quit out of frustration or lack of time to commit too, but I wanted to be clear that I'm talking about a larger market than just casual gamers.
Anyway, it looks like we agree on this now. . . if we ever disagreed. My whole point is that if they have hardcore game mechanics, then it is still a hardcore game. If you put a cow in a dress, it's still not going to be a good dancer and you aren't going to fool anyone (at least in the long run). However, cows still make milk, so why not embrace that fact.
Vanguard is a hardcore game designed for players who want hardcore timesinks, and there isn't any getting around that fact. They should embrace their faults so that they can embrace their strengths. . . though in this analogy I would have to hate milk (and I usually love it, so I resent my own rhetoric right now).
We all know that Brad has always said that Vanguard will be a game for "core" players, which basically means for people who consider an MMORPG more like a hobby than a game. And like any hobby, you need to dedicate lots of time to it. This are the same kind of players who plays D&D Pen and Paper, has the entire collection of Lord of the ring Trilogy movie and reads lots of Fantasy books in their spare time.
The reason why Brad started to push this game as a game for everyone is because (yes you guessed) of $OE marketing strategy. See, one of the reason I was mad at the deal between $oe and Sigil is because I know that Sony put greed before honesty, and that kind of approach can corrupt even people like Brad who tried to be honest with his fanbase since the beginning. So when people say that there is nothing wrong with the $oe deal, I will say bollocks. You will see how $oe will messed up Vanguard, and that's just the start (although I really hope it won't).
I'm going to give you an example, there are group of persons, that is in charge of captuting giants crabs in alaska, each one of those persons earn thousands dollars by just one day of work, in that temperatures below 0 and slippery floors + sometimes an angry ocean and the risk of losing a finger, they are risking a lot.. even their lives.
What I understand from the update FAQ and something that a lot of people have been saying in gaming communities, is that even casual players will be able to obtain high end gear by combining the different spheeres, mostly the diplomatic + crafting sphere.
A world of hardcore raiders, heck I wish, but that's far from be true, 20% raid, 20% solo, 60 Group content? You see that the 80% of the content is for non - raiders? means that 80% of the loots are destined for non raiders, even if we raiders can receives benefit from that content, the point is that raid content have been limited to 20%....
Originally posted by Dimitrio What I understand from the update FAQ and something that a lot of people have been saying in gaming communities, is that even casual players will be able to obtain high end gear by combining the different spheeres, mostly the diplomatic + crafting sphere.
Well yes.........that's what they are trying to convince you of. Truth is that casual player won't be able to reach the same level of "uberness" as the more dedicated "core" player.
Obviosly you need to define what "casual" means, since it has different meaning for different people, but I assume you mean people which can play between 10-15 hours a week. In order to be competitive in Vanguard you will need to spend at least 25-30 hours a week, even more if you really want to rock. So it is not realistic for casual players to keep up the pace with the core ones, there is no point in trying to convince people of the opposite.
Originally posted by ste2000 Originally posted by Dimitrio What I understand from the update FAQ and something that a lot of people have been saying in gaming communities, is that even casual players will be able to obtain high end gear by combining the different spheeres, mostly the diplomatic + crafting sphere.
Well yes.........that's what they are trying to convince you of. Truth is that casual player won't be able to reach the same level of "uberness" as the more dedicated "core" player.
Obviosly you need to define what "casual" means, since it has different meaning for different people, but I assume you mean people which can play between 10-15 hours a week. In order to be competitive in Vanguard you will need to spend at least 25-30 hours a week, even more if you really want to rock. So it is not realistic for casual players to keep up the pace with the core ones, there is no point in trying to convince people of the opposite.
Buy why a casual player would like to be uber as raider, if the casual player don't have the time and maybe the desire of trying the raid content?
Originally posted by Celestian I don't care about other guilds progress nor do I care to waste my time with time sinks. I wanna game, not start something then go cook dinner, wash cloths only to come back and see I'm still on a damn boat or something.
What if it's just some microwaveable mac & cheese?
Howdy Celestian, hope all is well
Ah well you caught me, sometimes I eat microwave popcorn for dinner when I'm really lazy. However I'd still spend at least 30-40 minutes on washing the clothes. Yeah I was being a bit sarcastic about the time duration (cook/cleaning) but I do remember the days of 45 minute or longer boat rides in EQ1. While the first time it was fun, the 50th it was not.
Buy why a casual player would like to be uber as raider, if the casual player don't have the time and maybe the desire of trying the raid content?
That's anyone guess really, that's what it puzzle me every time that people like Anofalye post their thoughts.
In short they don't want to start with an handicap on other people, therefore they try to convince Sigil and the comunity that they need to dumb down Vanguard in order to make it more accessible to Casual, so they have the same chances as anyone else to be "uber".
So we have hordes of Casuals on the official forums and in this forum, complaining about the corpse runs, lack of insta travel, no AH, too long raids, tedious crafting and bla bla bla bla.....................
WOW, EQ2, Gods and Heroes, Warhammer, Age of Conan..........how many more Casual games do people wants? Why can people leave Vanguard for the "core" players and forget about it? I really don't get it...........
I hope to God that Sigil does not change their vision and go with what they have planned. I personally don't think we need another WoW or EQ2 type of mainstream games. There's a reason I'm not playing either right now, same with my friends and several guildies that used to be in my WoW & EQ2 guild. We need something...different. I don't care if it's revolutionary or not, but it needs to be a tad different than WoW and EQ2. I don't mind if Vanguard is going to be built for the hardcores, because I can fit that playstyle. The minute they try to make everybody happy, that's when the game quality will go down, and it will no longer be Vanguard.
Originally posted by Mardy I hope to God that Sigil does not change their vision and go with what they have planned. I personally don't think we need another WoW or EQ2 type of mainstream games. There's a reason I'm not playing either right now, same with my friends and several guildies that used to be in my WoW & EQ2 guild. We need something...different. I don't care if it's revolutionary or not, but it needs to be a tad different than WoW and EQ2. I don't mind if Vanguard is going to be built for the hardcores, because I can fit that playstyle. The minute they try to make everybody happy, that's when the game quality will go down, and it will no longer be Vanguard. This is just my opinion.
Well they are already trying to do that Mardy, or at least they are trying to sell it that way. However, don't worry, the game is sitll full of timesinks that only hardcore players will put up with. Mainstream gamers will stay with games that are not punitive.
Originally posted by ste2000 Originally posted by Anofalye Then go and find yourself a game where "Best groupers deserve to be groupers" period. May I suggest that masterpiece called DDO? I think that's what you are looking for. Good luck with it.
You re not gonna get "raped", nobody is forcing you to play this game. Just find something that suits more your taste...........
But Brad is still lying, trying to get groupers interested in a setting they can't master. And have no fear, I won't play Vanguard unless they make sure that best groupers are groupers, not raiders.
Yet, I will remain, and pinpoint, as often as needed, that Vanguard is a crappy game as far as grouping is concerned.
DDO is an action game, no thanks. Vanguard has no such action, yet it dwell in raiding enforcement.
On 1 hand, they keep saying: grouping game. On the other, folks like STE, tell you to go away, you have to get logical with what your devs says...if they want groupers in their game, they must make the groupers find all he needs, inside groups.
In case you FAIL to notice, even DDO is enforcing "raiding" or planning to, just as all other MMO. I dunno what happen to all these MMOs devs, they must have some complex or something since they ALL be enforcing raiding or PvP on unwilling players.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by ste2000 Originally posted by Dimitrio
Buy why a casual player would like to be uber as raider, if the casual player don't have the time and maybe the desire of trying the raid content?
That's anyone guess really, that's what it puzzle me every time that people like Anofalye post their thoughts.
In short they don't want to start with an handicap on other people, therefore they try to convince Sigil and the comunity that they need to dumb down Vanguard in order to make it more accessible to Casual, so they have the same chances as anyone else to be "uber".
So we have hordes of Casuals on the official forums and in this forum, complaining about the corpse runs, lack of insta travel, no AH, too long raids, tedious crafting and bla bla bla bla.....................
WOW, EQ2, Gods and Heroes, Warhammer, Age of Conan..........how many more Casual games do people wants? Why can people leave Vanguard for the "core" players and forget about it? I really don't get it...........
LOL, you are plainly awful STE. You reverse everything. All freaking MMOs are enforcing a raiding or PvP end-game on unwilling players.
Would it be that hard to make sure that the best players in Crushbone are peoples who hunt in Crushbone and achieve everything they could inside Crushbone?
But please yourself, get more of this elitist trash attitude, be rudes with other players, be nasty, go ahead, trash with this elitist attitude.
WoW enforce raiding.
EQ2 enforce raiding.
WAR enforce PvP, RvR and prolly raiding.
AoC enforce PvP.
DDO plans to enforce raiding.
CoH enforce Raiding, RvR and PvP.
What more do you need to get into your skull that peoples are TIRED of this sucky enforcing attitude? Peoples just want a good grouping game, no raiding, no PvP, no tradeskills, just...grouping! Not 1 MMO atm is done that way, they are all enforcing some lames and foreign gameplays on unwilling players, after breaking promises...this is like a rape.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by ste2000 Originally posted by Anofalye Then go and find yourself a game where "Best groupers deserve to be groupers" period. May I suggest that masterpiece called DDO? I think that's what you are looking for. Good luck with it.
You re not gonna get "raped", nobody is forcing you to play this game. Just find something that suits more your taste...........
But Brad is still lying, trying to get groupers interested in a setting they can't master. And have no fear, I won't play Vanguard unless they make sure that best groupers are groupers, not raiders.
Yet, I will remain, and pinpoint, as often as needed, that Vanguard is a crappy game as far as grouping is concerned.
DDO is an action game, no thanks. Vanguard has no such action, yet it dwell in raiding enforcement.
On 1 hand, they keep saying: grouping game. On the other, folks like STE, tell you to go away, you have to get logical with what your devs says...if they want groupers in their game, they must make the groupers find all he needs, inside groups.
In case you FAIL to notice, even DDO is enforcing "raiding" or planning to, just as all other MMO. I dunno what happen to all these MMOs devs, they must have some complex or something since they ALL be enforcing raiding or PvP on unwilling players.
this just in.....if vanguard isn't made the way Anofalye thinks it should be then brad is "lying" because he says its main focus is grouping.
i have pointed out to you so many freaking times, Anofalye that not everyone is a 100% achiever like you are.... not everyone agrees with you.
if you think that a game absolutely must not have any raiding or its a terrible design thats fine, that is YOUR OPINION and nothing more.
obviously MANY people disagree with you and no matter how much you cry about it, its not going to change anything.
again vanguard is mainly focused on grouping, if you don't like the fact that it has other ways to advance your character other than grouping or if you don't like the fact that you can get SOME of the best gear in the game by something other than grouping then that is your problem.
you really do come off as a cry baby Anofalye, you spam the forums with the same anti-raiding argument in every single post thinking it will make some sort of difference.
it will make no difference, you are not convincing anyone to make a game for you. i suggest you go whine to a game Dev somewhere if you really want your voice to be heard because all you are doing here is spamming this forum.
I'm sorry if this comes off as a bit harsh, but really......if you seriously want to have a game/server with no raiding this is not the place to be complaining about it ENDLESSLY.....go to the games actual website where your voice might possible be heard, because it is not going to be heard here more than likely.
Originally posted by dimaryp I think raiding is a terrible design goal too.Vanguard will fail, it almost already has, it will be too hard for most people, and it will be too soft for the "core" people.One thing you have to understand, some people don't like to raid, and honestly, I think most people don't like to raid, people just like good loot.D
i like to raid, not just for the loot but for the epic encounters as well.... but you are right alot of people just want good loot. and i will also say vanguard hasn't been released so how has it "almost failed"?
you may be right that most people don't like hardcore elements like raiding, but there is still alot of people that do like it.
if you are judging this game on how "mainstream" it will be, then yeah it will fail in your eyes. but yeah i don't blame people for hating raids, everyone has their own tastes and preferences.
personally i don't mind raiding, and i like alot of the elements that will be in vanguard so for me weather it fails or not remains to be seen.
Comments
My though is not that Vanguard will be a horrible game. They have a long beta process that will hopefully make it a really fun game. My point is really very simple. Timesinks like item loss/corpse runs, and xp debt/loss are really for a hardcore set of gamers. As long as they are committed to keeping hardcore timesinks in the game, all of the moves to try to make the game appealing to mass market customers will ultimately fail because the mass-market simply won't put up with timesinks. They'll get frustrated and go play something else.
My hope is that Vanguard will be a really amazing game (though I'm not saying it will be one. I won't judge it to be good or bad until I play a final version). My position is that even if the game is very good, it will never appeal to mainstream gamers when hardcore timesinks are included.
Gimme a break. Taminy Hall? The Daily Machine? Its not new and its ot caused by the republicans. Democrats have been at least as corrupt for far longer.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
If you need to have sex with with someone on monday and on friday, your life is not "sex oriented". If you don't want to have sex on these days and you have to, then we are calling this a rape.
ANY reward inside the raiding system granting group-uberness = raid enforcement, unfair and unasked for.
Raiders doesn't deserve any group edge, especially not the finest. Best groupers deserve to be groupers, period.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
What if it's just some microwaveable mac & cheese?
Howdy Celestian, hope all is well
If you need to have sex with with someone on monday and on friday, your life is not "sex oriented". If you don't want to have sex on these days and you have to, then we are calling this a rape.
ANY reward inside the raiding system granting group-uberness = raid enforcement, unfair and unasked for.
Raiders doesn't deserve any group edge, especially not the finest. Best groupers deserve to be groupers, period.
Then go and find yourself a game where "Best groupers deserve to be groupers" period.
May I suggest that masterpiece called DDO? I think that's what you are looking for.
Good luck with it.
You re not gonna get "raped", nobody is forcing you to play this game.
Just find something that suits more your taste...........
ste2000 - Actually the true suggestions are WoW, Gods & Heroes, and Age of Conan. You know, the games that won a ton of awards at E3 and have been getting the lion's share of attention from people who have an opportunity to see all of the upcoming games in demos. They all aren't hardcore and all have appeal to a mainstream crowd.
This is the POINT. I'm just saying that their PR to make themselves appear less hardcore will ultimately fail. If you give people the expectation that the game will be for their playsytle and then only reward hardcore encounters with the best stuff, then you STILL HAVE A HARDCORE GAME. It's like selling people Oreos, but replacing the cream-filling with lead. They are going to notice!
I'm NOT saying that Vanguard should not be hardcore. Certainly there are people who want a Western MMO that has hardcore elements (though I think that it is one of those things that people remember well in nostalgia and then hate in actuality - half of the people wanting a sting from death will change their tunes the first time they ahve to wait for 6 hours to get their corpse back or lose a powerful item until their guild has time to go on a corpse run). What I am saying is that as long as you have hardcore timesinks, no amount of obsfucation will change the fact that you have a hardcore game that won't appeal to the mass-market.
Just so you guys know, I'm probably going to get Vanguard if the quality is there. The things I saw at E3 like the bad combat animations, the empty contentless world, and the broken or not yet implemented systems need to be fixed before release before I would consider the purchase, but I wouldn't not play the game because of the hardcore timesinks. I'm a pretty hardcore gamer, so while I would hate the timesinks, I would take steps to make sure that I only die extremely rarely - like other "skilled" players, I would do everything necessary to remove the risk in the content. However, I don't like playing that way and it would piss me off. . . Anyway, my problem is that I won't be able to get my friends who I sucked into Final Fantasy XI to play (they hated xp debt and the grind and travel times - basically timesinks) to play it again. However, I can get them to play WoW and we are planning on playing the WoW expansion and G&H and AoC together. Vanguard will be my dirty little hardcore secret.
The point I'm making here is that I don't want Vanguard to fail. I'm not campaigning against it or anything. I'm saying that I think that trying to sell Vanguard as a game that has mass-market appeal is BS. It's not mass-market; it's extremely hardcore, and people will see through the BS and leave the game quickly if they continue trying to appeal to a customer that they are NOT desiging the game for. Half-measures would have worked back before the MMO market started growing, but they won't work now. There are too many other choices and there will just be more and more of them.
The market for MMOs is expected to quadruple within the next 4 years.
And DDO has 95% of group content.
Because of this exclusivity, DDO won the prize for crappiest game of the decade, because people like games with a bit of everything, like you said WoW, EQ2 and hopefuly Vanguard.
The only difference is that WoW and EQ2 are for "casual" players and Vangurd for what you call "hardcore".
As you mentioned already there are lots of "Casual" games on the market and many more will come out in the near future, so why you want Vanguard as well to join the long queue?
What game is going to cater for the so called "hardcore"?
So to everyone his, and everyone is happy.
Except Anofalye, who still doesn't know what he is looking for...........don't worry one day you will find your dream game and you too will be happy
ste2000 - The demographic I'm discussing is the mainstream demographic. Casual really talks about one portion of that demographic but not all of it. When you say casual gamers, that really is more like adults with children who don't have a lot of time to play. Mainstream market also includes young adults and teenagers that would get frustrated with hardcore gameplay timesinks and would choose games that are not as punitive in their design. The casual gamers will quit out of frustration or lack of time to commit too, but I wanted to be clear that I'm talking about a larger market than just casual gamers.
Anyway, it looks like we agree on this now. . . if we ever disagreed. My whole point is that if they have hardcore game mechanics, then it is still a hardcore game. If you put a cow in a dress, it's still not going to be a good dancer and you aren't going to fool anyone (at least in the long run). However, cows still make milk, so why not embrace that fact.
Vanguard is a hardcore game designed for players who want hardcore timesinks, and there isn't any getting around that fact. They should embrace their faults so that they can embrace their strengths. . . though in this analogy I would have to hate milk (and I usually love it, so I resent my own rhetoric right now).
And like any hobby, you need to dedicate lots of time to it.
This are the same kind of players who plays D&D Pen and Paper, has the entire collection of Lord of the ring Trilogy movie and reads lots of Fantasy books in their spare time.
The reason why Brad started to push this game as a game for everyone is because (yes you guessed) of $OE marketing strategy.
See, one of the reason I was mad at the deal between $oe and Sigil is because I know that Sony put greed before honesty, and that kind of approach can corrupt even people like Brad who tried to be honest with his fanbase since the beginning.
So when people say that there is nothing wrong with the $oe deal, I will say bollocks.
You will see how $oe will messed up Vanguard, and that's just the start (although I really hope it won't).
I'm going to give you an example, there are group of persons, that is in charge of captuting giants crabs in alaska, each one of those persons earn thousands dollars by just one day of work, in that temperatures below 0 and slippery floors + sometimes an angry ocean and the risk of losing a finger, they are risking a lot.. even their lives.
What I understand from the update FAQ and something that a lot of people have been saying in gaming communities, is that even casual players will be able to obtain high end gear by combining the different spheeres, mostly the diplomatic + crafting sphere.
A world of hardcore raiders, heck I wish, but that's far from be true, 20% raid, 20% solo, 60 Group content? You see that the 80% of the content is for non - raiders? means that 80% of the loots are destined for non raiders, even if we raiders can receives benefit from that content, the point is that raid content have been limited to 20%....
Dimitrio Darkblade
Founder Leader of Vitae Essentia
http://www.veguild.org
Truth is that casual player won't be able to reach the same level of "uberness" as the more dedicated "core" player.
Obviosly you need to define what "casual" means, since it has different meaning for different people, but I assume you mean people which can play between 10-15 hours a week.
In order to be competitive in Vanguard you will need to spend at least 25-30 hours a week, even more if you really want to rock.
So it is not realistic for casual players to keep up the pace with the core ones, there is no point in trying to convince people of the opposite.
Truth is that casual player won't be able to reach the same level of "uberness" as the more dedicated "core" player.
Obviosly you need to define what "casual" means, since it has different meaning for different people, but I assume you mean people which can play between 10-15 hours a week.
In order to be competitive in Vanguard you will need to spend at least 25-30 hours a week, even more if you really want to rock.
So it is not realistic for casual players to keep up the pace with the core ones, there is no point in trying to convince people of the opposite.
Buy why a casual player would like to be uber as raider, if the casual player don't have the time and maybe the desire of trying the raid content?
Dimitrio Darkblade
Founder Leader of Vitae Essentia
http://www.veguild.org
What if it's just some microwaveable mac & cheese?
Howdy Celestian, hope all is well
Ah well you caught me, sometimes I eat microwave popcorn for dinner when I'm really lazy. However I'd still spend at least 30-40 minutes on washing the clothes. Yeah I was being a bit sarcastic about the time duration (cook/cleaning) but I do remember the days of 45 minute or longer boat rides in EQ1. While the first time it was fun, the 50th it was not.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
In short they don't want to start with an handicap on other people, therefore they try to convince Sigil and the comunity that they need to dumb down Vanguard in order to make it more accessible to Casual, so they have the same chances as anyone else to be "uber".
So we have hordes of Casuals on the official forums and in this forum, complaining about the corpse runs, lack of insta travel, no AH, too long raids, tedious crafting and bla bla bla bla.....................
WOW, EQ2, Gods and Heroes, Warhammer, Age of Conan..........how many more Casual games do people wants? Why can people leave Vanguard for the "core" players and forget about it?
I really don't get it...........
I hope to God that Sigil does not change their vision and go with what they have planned. I personally don't think we need another WoW or EQ2 type of mainstream games. There's a reason I'm not playing either right now, same with my friends and several guildies that used to be in my WoW & EQ2 guild. We need something...different. I don't care if it's revolutionary or not, but it needs to be a tad different than WoW and EQ2. I don't mind if Vanguard is going to be built for the hardcores, because I can fit that playstyle. The minute they try to make everybody happy, that's when the game quality will go down, and it will no longer be Vanguard.
This is just my opinion.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
But Brad is still lying, trying to get groupers interested in a setting they can't master. And have no fear, I won't play Vanguard unless they make sure that best groupers are groupers, not raiders.
Yet, I will remain, and pinpoint, as often as needed, that Vanguard is a crappy game as far as grouping is concerned.
DDO is an action game, no thanks. Vanguard has no such action, yet it dwell in raiding enforcement.
On 1 hand, they keep saying: grouping game. On the other, folks like STE, tell you to go away, you have to get logical with what your devs says...if they want groupers in their game, they must make the groupers find all he needs, inside groups.
In case you FAIL to notice, even DDO is enforcing "raiding" or planning to, just as all other MMO. I dunno what happen to all these MMOs devs, they must have some complex or something since they ALL be enforcing raiding or PvP on unwilling players.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
In short they don't want to start with an handicap on other people, therefore they try to convince Sigil and the comunity that they need to dumb down Vanguard in order to make it more accessible to Casual, so they have the same chances as anyone else to be "uber".
So we have hordes of Casuals on the official forums and in this forum, complaining about the corpse runs, lack of insta travel, no AH, too long raids, tedious crafting and bla bla bla bla.....................
WOW, EQ2, Gods and Heroes, Warhammer, Age of Conan..........how many more Casual games do people wants? Why can people leave Vanguard for the "core" players and forget about it?
I really don't get it...........
LOL, you are plainly awful STE. You reverse everything. All freaking MMOs are enforcing a raiding or PvP end-game on unwilling players.
Would it be that hard to make sure that the best players in Crushbone are peoples who hunt in Crushbone and achieve everything they could inside Crushbone?
But please yourself, get more of this elitist trash attitude, be rudes with other players, be nasty, go ahead, trash with this elitist attitude.
WoW enforce raiding.
EQ2 enforce raiding.
WAR enforce PvP, RvR and prolly raiding.
AoC enforce PvP.
DDO plans to enforce raiding.
CoH enforce Raiding, RvR and PvP.
What more do you need to get into your skull that peoples are TIRED of this sucky enforcing attitude? Peoples just want a good grouping game, no raiding, no PvP, no tradeskills, just...grouping! Not 1 MMO atm is done that way, they are all enforcing some lames and foreign gameplays on unwilling players, after breaking promises...this is like a rape.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
But Brad is still lying, trying to get groupers interested in a setting they can't master. And have no fear, I won't play Vanguard unless they make sure that best groupers are groupers, not raiders.
Yet, I will remain, and pinpoint, as often as needed, that Vanguard is a crappy game as far as grouping is concerned.
DDO is an action game, no thanks. Vanguard has no such action, yet it dwell in raiding enforcement.
On 1 hand, they keep saying: grouping game. On the other, folks like STE, tell you to go away, you have to get logical with what your devs says...if they want groupers in their game, they must make the groupers find all he needs, inside groups.
In case you FAIL to notice, even DDO is enforcing "raiding" or planning to, just as all other MMO. I dunno what happen to all these MMOs devs, they must have some complex or something since they ALL be enforcing raiding or PvP on unwilling players.
"Its not a lie if you believe it, Jerry!"
this just in.....if vanguard isn't made the way Anofalye thinks it should be then brad is "lying" because he says its main focus is grouping.
i have pointed out to you so many freaking times, Anofalye that not everyone is a 100% achiever like you are.... not everyone agrees with you.
if you think that a game absolutely must not have any raiding or its a terrible design thats fine, that is YOUR OPINION and nothing more.
obviously MANY people disagree with you and no matter how much you cry about it, its not going to change anything.
again vanguard is mainly focused on grouping, if you don't like the fact that it has other ways to advance your character other than grouping or if you don't like the fact that you can get SOME of the best gear in the game by something other than grouping then that is your problem.
you really do come off as a cry baby Anofalye, you spam the forums with the same anti-raiding argument in every single post thinking it will make some sort of difference.
it will make no difference, you are not convincing anyone to make a game for you. i suggest you go whine to a game Dev somewhere if you really want your voice to be heard because all you are doing here is spamming this forum.
I'm sorry if this comes off as a bit harsh, but really......if you seriously want to have a game/server with no raiding this is not the place to be complaining about it ENDLESSLY.....go to the games actual website where your voice might possible be heard, because it is not going to be heard here more than likely.
Vanguard will fail, it almost already has, it will be too hard for most people, and it will be too soft for the "core" people.
One thing you have to understand, some people don't like to raid, and honestly, I think most people don't like to raid, people just like good loot.
D
i like to raid, not just for the loot but for the epic encounters as well.... but you are right alot of people just want good loot. and i will also say vanguard hasn't been released so how has it "almost failed"?
you may be right that most people don't like hardcore elements like raiding, but there is still alot of people that do like it.
if you are judging this game on how "mainstream" it will be, then yeah it will fail in your eyes. but yeah i don't blame people for hating raids, everyone has their own tastes and preferences.
personally i don't mind raiding, and i like alot of the elements that will be in vanguard so for me weather it fails or not remains to be seen.