There's an old joke about bad movies that applys to SEED:
It wasn't released, it escaped.
The non-combat hook has never been in question. The game was horribly broken. There was no marketing for the game. There were not enough people to make a community. The non-combat stuff was all grinding.
I applaud the developers for trying. I'm sure every last one of us on this board and in all games wiches they could be a part of any game development that would actually see the light of day. I hope all other game developers learn from their mistakes and willingness to break out of the norm.
Give a man fire and he''s warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he''s warm the rest of his life.
Nowhere did I imply that former Seed fans should migrate to a SOE game or to WoW. Anyone who has paid attention to my views knows I dislike SOE and WoW is only worth playing short term, it's a simple game for the masses, at best an introduction to MMOGs for novices.
Some people have honestly stated that Seed's lack of success was based on it's early release in an unfinished state and just not being fun. We see both small and large developers releasing crap these days and when they do, they deserve a quick death.
There are quality niche games by small developers though that need and deserve a larger playerbase to become healthy, and those are the ones that suffer when the majority of gamers are playing WoW or divided amongst too many crappy little games. Take a look at the list of released games on the main game list on this site and honestly tell me how many of these games you think are good. Most of them suck.
Now we all have our opinions about which games are good and what we like, but the market doesn't play favorites and it will impartially determine which games deserve to live or die, wether they are produced by small or large developers. Right now there are too many unworthy MMOGs in the marketplace which sap resources from quality games that deserve to thrive.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Somewhere, someplace, in sometime, there is a place where discontinued MMORPG's are still being played. Earth and Beyond, AC2, Ultima Online IX (or was it XI?), and now... SEED.
It's always a shame that honest and communicative Devs get the hook while the cookie cutter rubber stamp guys make off with all the loot. Just that nature of the business I guess. Good luck in the future Runestone, if you had a somewhat playable, game more people might have looked past the bugs to find something to keep them with you.
Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the reviews of MMORPG.com or its management.
Damn, it really makes me sad hearing that, even though I haven't played the game it really sounded interested. I especially applaud the staff for having made an mmo that approached a different direction than any of the EQ clones out there. Best of luck to the staff on whatever they decide to do in the future.
Originally posted by Jorev This is good for the MMOG market. More of these games that have pitiful small playerbases should close down. It means these players will migrate to a healthier game and help keep it alive. There are way too many crappy and niche games out there and it just divides the player base too much. If the game isn't making a decent profit, shut it down.
That is one of the most asinine statements I have ever seen anywhere to date. People with your opinion are the reason the mmorpg genre is in the stagnant state that it is. I didn't play seed mainly because I had heard of its being released too early and I was hoping they'd get to turn things around. But I will respect them for what they tried to do because it was a worthy goal: to put the RPG back in mmoRPG. I also give them much respect for being upfront and realizing that they bit off more than they could handle and ADMITTING it, unlike some of these other so-called "groudndbreakers" like DnL and others that would rather throw the blame to everyone but themselves. Personally, I hope they are able to pull it together financially and try SEED again when it is ready. I have a feeling it could be a big hit
Originally posted by Salvatoris ...Role-playing should go on top of game mechanics, not in place of them....
"One thing I would hate to see happen as a result of our failure would be a consensus forming that the idea about a non-combat, role play-centric MMO is a bad idea."
I personally hope that is exactly the consensus that that comes out of this deal.
The reason this game failed wasn't because there weren't players who didn't enjoy the concept. The reason this game failed was because the game crashed, hanged, had immense lag, had an interface that was internal testing grade, and bugs up the wazoo. They did a lot to solve the content problem in subsequent publishes. Technical problems and the early release drove more players away than anything else.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Tis a sad day. Best of luck on new things to all of seeds fans players developers and everyone else. I know what its like to lose a game you care about.
Originally posted by Jorev Nowhere did I imply that former Seed fans should migrate to a SOE game or to WoW. Anyone who has paid attention to my views knows I dislike SOE and WoW is only worth playing short term, it's a simple game for the masses, at best an introduction to MMOGs for novices. Some people have honestly stated that Seed's lack of success was based on it's early release in an unfinished state and just not being fun. We see both small and large developers releasing crap these days and when they do, they deserve a quick death. There are quality niche games by small developers though that need and deserve a larger playerbase to become healthy, and those are the ones that suffer when the majority of gamers are playing WoW or divided amongst too many crappy little games. Take a look at the list of released games on the main game list on this site and honestly tell me how many of these games you think are good. Most of them suck. Now we all have our opinions about which games are good and what we like, but the market doesn't play favorites and it will impartially determine which games deserve to live or die, wether they are produced by small or large developers. Right now there are too many unworthy MMOGs in the marketplace which sap resources from quality games that deserve to thrive.
I'm trying hard here but what you say here isn't as such was you said in your first post. Seed leaving us is NOT a good thing. I can agree with your points here but not in your first post.
Seed was one of the most inovative MMORPG concepts out there. It is true that less/no combat will give more room for role playing. But it wasn't nearly finished. It would've at least taken another year of development.
Am I glad the niche game i'm playing is in the hands of a steady producer.
It is sad indeed. I didn't understand a part, maybe the staff or someone can explain...
For about 90% of this thread and the messages, I think everyone means that everything is closing. However, in the original message, he was saying something about "been lucky if you will encounter a GM in the future", or something among those lines...
I do understand that the devs and everything behind close...is there still going to be an open server even staff-less/unpaid free-workers? Is this a last stand these devs are TRYING to do but it has to be confirmed?
I know it is never going to heal the fanbase, but just to know that what was done can be saw and played further...I mean, I just misunderstood this part prolly, but well, asking anyway, curious me.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I followed Seed for a good while after I heard about it being developed. I asked a lot of questions on their boards and found out more about it. The conclusion I came away with was that is was a game trying to be nuance without much throught going into it. Not having combat was a good idea, but that made content scarce. I think that is what ultimately doomed Seed, because it seemed like they didn't know how to go about marketing that kind of game. If it had been advertised as some sort of avatar chat room like Sims Online or Second Life, I think it would have done better. Instead they insisted on the title of being a mmo without combat, which wouldn't draw players from those other mmo chat rooms. They attracted a handful of RPers, but the game was essentially like Sims Online in a Sci-Fi setting. They could have siphoned off some more players if they had pushed it right, at least that's what I think.
Originally posted by Jorev This is good for the MMOG market. More of these games that have pitiful small playerbases should close down. It means these players will migrate to a healthier game and help keep it alive. There are way too many crappy and niche games out there and it just divides the player base too much. If the game isn't making a decent profit, shut it down. Yeah game industry should make 5-6 mainstream titles they're sure people would play, and avoid investing on weird ideas about "different" games noone would care for. Please. I think the problem is the contrary btw, and i mean about games in general not only MMOGs: with the increasing cost in developing a game you must have the largest possible playerbase and the smallest risk so the type and quality level of games are flattening and there's a lot less place for niche games. That is bad, very bad.
Edit: lol didn't realize there were 5 pages between the quote and my reply. Sorry
Originally posted by Jorev WoW is only worth playing short term, it's a simple game for the masses, at best an introduction to MMOGs for novices.
And from there we move up to the rocket science that is .... I'm sorry, what game would that be that takes a PhD to play?
Sorry to say but he's right WoW is a kiddie game. 3 Weeks and you have max level, max fishing, maxed 2 crafting abilities and runing end game instances along with pretty easy PvP if you have ts or whatever set up with your PvP friends. Only challenge is taking on former/current special forces groups in PvP (now that is fun) other wise you always know what the kids are gonna do and always win well because you are almost always right assuming it isn't 2 of you against 60... Me and 1 friend we're able to take out 6 people at a time without a problem consistantly by just constantly baiting and hooking very basic tactic but works none the less...
Hats off and a pat on the back for the developers of SEED for a most noble attempt at providing the gaming community with fun and enjoyment. I'm saddened to hear that things didnt work out and those guys have my upmost appreciation as an online gamer. What doesnt kill you only makes you stronger guys. Never give up! God bless!
Originally posted by Darthorious Originally posted by Amathe
Originally posted by Jorev WoW is only worth playing short term, it's a simple game for the masses, at best an introduction to MMOGs for novices.
And from there we move up to the rocket science that is .... I'm sorry, what game would that be that takes a PhD to play?
Sorry to say but he's right WoW is a kiddie game. 3 Weeks and you have max level, max fishing, maxed 2 crafting abilities and runing end game instances along with pretty easy PvP if you have ts or whatever set up with your PvP friends. Only challenge is taking on former/current special forces groups in PvP (now that is fun) other wise you always know what the kids are gonna do and always win well because you are almost always right assuming it isn't 2 of you against 60... Me and 1 friend we're able to take out 6 people at a time without a problem consistantly by just constantly baiting and hooking very basic tactic but works none the less...
You are confusing two issues. I have played most of the major mmo titles. So, for example, I played EQ (beginning pre-Luclin) and I have played WoW. You can certainly argue that advancement is more rapid in WoW than EQ. I concede that. But that's a function of the xp curve. EQ was NOT more intellectually challenging than WoW, or, if it is, you are splitting hairs between two things, neither one of which is very intellectually challenging.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Originally posted by Billius8 Somewhere, someplace, in sometime, there is a place where discontinued MMORPG's are still being played. Earth and Beyond, AC2, Ultima Online IX (or was it XI?), and now... SEED. No game goes unplayed forever, do do not lament.
I'm sad that Seed is closing. It had some innovative ideas that I think a lot of people never discovered. An example is npc's that respond to emotes and to the manner in which you are speaking to them (agressive, friendly ect.)
I've subscribed to this game since beta and still is, even though I never played it much. I do this because I hope the Runestone staff will pick it up at some point and sort out the bugs.
Keep up the good work, Runestone. Hope you've gained some useful experience for the next time you make a game. I will be watching
I played my self Seed for about month or two. I can say it was one of unique MMORPG. I was planing to come look it about year later, give it time to mature, but it got closed week later than I canceled my account.
Game was technically little broken and half way done, but graphics, community, story, design, GM's, Development people and atmosphere was great. I'm gonna miss this kind, a more creative MMORPGs than those current "EQ" clones with notting else than leveling.
"I do understand that the devs and everything behind close...is there still going to be an open server even staff-less/unpaid free-workers? Is this a last stand these devs are TRYING to do but it has to be confirmed?"
No, no open server. The server will remain open for around a week but it will not be monitored (ie only auto reboot if something goes wrong) and GMs will only be there in their spare time(if at all). There was a "goodbye" speach yesterday ingame (and yes, IC as well) and I doubt people will be logging in anymore to roleplay...If people are in-game its most likely only to grab a few last screenshots etc.
Oh and to comment a bit on what people have said: Yes the game needed more work. But it still surprises me that there wasnt more people who could see that without our support the game would close down. What surprises me even more is that there was no publisher willing to make a relaunch of the game... Most investors just cant see a good idea when you throw it in their face I guess...
First of all, the one thing this news item proves is that our support (or lack thereof) made LITTLE difference in the final outcome. What matters is what the potential investors think.
Secondly, while SEED's comic-book graphics engine looked great - and that engine/platform is still available for developing other games - the rest of this game was ridiculously below the bar for a modern release. Nightmare UI, pointless grinds, endless lists of unimplemented basics, etc.
The endless "RP debates" and "nonviolent debates" were red herrings IMHO. There is nothing wrong with RP but it has to flow naturally from the contours of a well written game. You can't launch NothingWorksQuest 1.0 and then badger people to roleplay the miserable stub of working gameworld provided. I mean, you *can*... and then you can read a news item like this one.
Similarly, the whole nonviolence thing was overblown. There are people playing nonviolent roles in a ton of MMO's out there. That's proof that noncombat gameplay is popular; you don't need a half-baked martyr game to demonstrate the principle. What you do need is a well designed, smartly implemented game that makes nonviolent gameplay INTERESTING in its own right, rather than just expecting people to groove on the supposed uniqueness.
My best hope is that someone who knows what they're doing in the MMO business is inspired by SEED's best points and makes a kickass game embodying some of the ideas. Without hatch repairs please
"For the MMO community and business as such, the rise and fall of Runestone probably doesn’t mean that much, but I hope MMO execs out there reading this letter will draw the *right* conclusions from Runestone and Seed, and *not* the wrong ones.
One thing I would hate to see happen as a result of our failure would be a consensus forming that the idea about a non-combat, role play-centric MMO is a bad idea.
Comments
It wasn't released, it escaped.
The non-combat hook has never been in question. The game was horribly broken. There was no marketing for the game. There were not enough people to make a community. The non-combat stuff was all grinding.
I applaud the developers for trying. I'm sure every last one of us on this board and in all games wiches they could be a part of any game development that would actually see the light of day. I hope all other game developers learn from their mistakes and willingness to break out of the norm.
Give a man fire and he''s warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he''s warm the rest of his life.
Nowhere did I imply that former Seed fans should migrate to a SOE game or to WoW. Anyone who has paid attention to my views knows I dislike SOE and WoW is only worth playing short term, it's a simple game for the masses, at best an introduction to MMOGs for novices.
Some people have honestly stated that Seed's lack of success was based on it's early release in an unfinished state and just not being fun. We see both small and large developers releasing crap these days and when they do, they deserve a quick death.
There are quality niche games by small developers though that need and deserve a larger playerbase to become healthy, and those are the ones that suffer when the majority of gamers are playing WoW or divided amongst too many crappy little games. Take a look at the list of released games on the main game list on this site and honestly tell me how many of these games you think are good. Most of them suck.
Now we all have our opinions about which games are good and what we like, but the market doesn't play favorites and it will impartially determine which games deserve to live or die, wether they are produced by small or large developers. Right now there are too many unworthy MMOGs in the marketplace which sap resources from quality games that deserve to thrive.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Somewhere, someplace, in sometime, there is a place where discontinued MMORPG's are still being played. Earth and Beyond, AC2, Ultima Online IX (or was it XI?), and now... SEED.
No game goes unplayed forever, do do not lament.
Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the reviews of MMORPG.com or its management.
"One thing I would hate to see happen as a result of our failure would be a consensus forming that the idea about a non-combat, role play-centric MMO is a bad idea."
I personally hope that is exactly the consensus that that comes out of this deal.
The reason this game failed wasn't because there weren't players who didn't enjoy the concept. The reason this game failed was because the game crashed, hanged, had immense lag, had an interface that was internal testing grade, and bugs up the wazoo. They did a lot to solve the content problem in subsequent publishes. Technical problems and the early release drove more players away than anything else.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I still miss Wish.
----ITS A TRAP!!!----
Seed was one of the most inovative MMORPG concepts out there. It is true that less/no combat will give more room for role playing. But it wasn't nearly finished. It would've at least taken another year of development.
Am I glad the niche game i'm playing is in the hands of a steady producer.
It is sad indeed. I didn't understand a part, maybe the staff or someone can explain...
For about 90% of this thread and the messages, I think everyone means that everything is closing. However, in the original message, he was saying something about "been lucky if you will encounter a GM in the future", or something among those lines...
I do understand that the devs and everything behind close...is there still going to be an open server even staff-less/unpaid free-workers? Is this a last stand these devs are TRYING to do but it has to be confirmed?
I know it is never going to heal the fanbase, but just to know that what was done can be saw and played further...I mean, I just misunderstood this part prolly, but well, asking anyway, curious me.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Farewell Seed.
If only things would have worked out better.
Some people make things happen.
Some people watch things happen.
Some people wonder what happened.
Hopefully someone will pick this up and finish it properly.
Sorry to say but he's right WoW is a kiddie game. 3 Weeks and you have max level, max fishing, maxed 2 crafting abilities and runing end game instances along with pretty easy PvP if you have ts or whatever set up with your PvP friends. Only challenge is taking on former/current special forces groups in PvP (now that is fun) other wise you always know what the kids are gonna do and always win well because you are almost always right assuming it isn't 2 of you against 60... Me and 1 friend we're able to take out 6 people at a time without a problem consistantly by just constantly baiting and hooking very basic tactic but works none the less...
Hats off and a pat on the back for the developers of SEED for a most noble attempt at providing the gaming community with fun and enjoyment. I'm saddened to hear that things didnt work out and those guys have my upmost appreciation as an online gamer. What doesnt kill you only makes you stronger guys. Never give up! God bless!
Sorry to say but he's right WoW is a kiddie game. 3 Weeks and you have max level, max fishing, maxed 2 crafting abilities and runing end game instances along with pretty easy PvP if you have ts or whatever set up with your PvP friends. Only challenge is taking on former/current special forces groups in PvP (now that is fun) other wise you always know what the kids are gonna do and always win well because you are almost always right assuming it isn't 2 of you against 60... Me and 1 friend we're able to take out 6 people at a time without a problem consistantly by just constantly baiting and hooking very basic tactic but works none the less...
You are confusing two issues. I have played most of the major mmo titles. So, for example, I played EQ (beginning pre-Luclin) and I have played WoW. You can certainly argue that advancement is more rapid in WoW than EQ. I concede that. But that's a function of the xp curve. EQ was NOT more intellectually challenging than WoW, or, if it is, you are splitting hairs between two things, neither one of which is very intellectually challenging.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I'm sad that Seed is closing. It had some innovative ideas that I think a lot of people never discovered. An example is npc's that respond to emotes and to the manner in which you are speaking to them (agressive, friendly ect.)
I've subscribed to this game since beta and still is, even though I never played it much. I do this because I hope the Runestone staff will pick it up at some point and sort out the bugs.
Keep up the good work, Runestone. Hope you've gained some useful experience for the next time you make a game. I will be watching
I played my self Seed for about month or two. I can say it was one of unique MMORPG. I was planing to come look it about year later, give it time to mature, but it got closed week later than I canceled my account.
Game was technically little broken and half way done, but graphics, community, story, design, GM's, Development people and atmosphere was great. I'm gonna miss this kind, a more creative MMORPGs than those current "EQ" clones with notting else than leveling.
Bye all Seedlings, good luck for You travels.
MMORPG.COM has worst forum editor ever exists
still going to be an open server even staff-less/unpaid free-workers?
Is this a last stand these devs are TRYING to do but it has to be
confirmed?"
No, no open server. The server will remain open for around a week but it will not be monitored (ie only auto reboot if something goes wrong) and GMs will only be there in their spare time(if at all). There was a "goodbye" speach yesterday ingame (and yes, IC as well) and I doubt people will be logging in anymore to roleplay...If people are in-game its most likely only to grab a few last screenshots etc.
Oh and to comment a bit on what people have said: Yes the game needed more work. But it still surprises me that there wasnt more people who could see that without our support the game would close down. What surprises me even more is that there was no publisher willing to make a relaunch of the game... Most investors just cant see a good idea when you throw it in their face I guess...
Secondly, while SEED's comic-book graphics engine looked great - and that engine/platform is still available for developing other games - the rest of this game was ridiculously below the bar for a modern release. Nightmare UI, pointless grinds, endless lists of unimplemented basics, etc.
The endless "RP debates" and "nonviolent debates" were red herrings IMHO. There is nothing wrong with RP but it has to flow naturally from the contours of a well written game. You can't launch NothingWorksQuest 1.0 and then badger people to roleplay the miserable stub of working gameworld provided. I mean, you *can*... and then you can read a news item like this one.
Similarly, the whole nonviolence thing was overblown. There are people playing nonviolent roles in a ton of MMO's out there. That's proof that noncombat gameplay is popular; you don't need a half-baked martyr game to demonstrate the principle. What you do need is a well designed, smartly implemented game that makes nonviolent gameplay INTERESTING in its own right, rather than just expecting people to groove on the supposed uniqueness.
My best hope is that someone who knows what they're doing in the MMO business is inspired by SEED's best points and makes a kickass game embodying some of the ideas. Without hatch repairs please
I lol'd
"For the MMO community and business as such, the rise and fall of Runestone probably doesn’t mean that much, but I hope MMO execs out there reading this letter will draw the *right* conclusions from Runestone and Seed, and *not* the wrong ones.
One thing I would hate to see happen as a result of our failure would be a consensus forming that the idea about a non-combat, role play-centric MMO is a bad idea.
It isn’t."
O RLY?