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General: Debate: The Effects of World PvP in WoW
Stradden
Managing EditorMember CommonPosts: 6,696
This Week in our Editorial Debate, Joe Iuliani and Garrett Fuller square off to talk about PvP and ganking in a debate titled, "The effects of World PvP in World of WarCraft":
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Joe Iuliani: I guess I should start off my mentioning I'm thirty-five, have a full time job and love to game. Maybe I'm still new to MMORPGs, but I was always told that PvP stands for Player versus Player. I think I may be getting too hung up on the "versus" part. Since I really don't understand how a person, and more often these days, a group of people ganging up on a person trying to just play a game works out. I think that world PVP takes away from individuals who want to just farm for materials (farming will get its own rant) or do something zany like just make it into a damn zone. Before anybody really gets into why I'm on a PvP server and not a PvE server, its simple why would I want to limit my options. Griefing players is not "versus." Waiting until a player is down to 10% of their life isn't versus. Taking an hour just to get into a dungeon because gankers are waiting outside isn't versus. All these world PvP issues take away from the limited amount of time some players have. Not that this has anything to do with gnome warriors? But what's up that? |
You can read the debate here.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Comments
I think this was a carebear versus carebear debate.
The game is called World of WARcraft. War is nasty, war is unfair. I love playing on PVP servers that are completely open. I love being ganked and ganking. WOW is such a fast game to level in, getting ganked now and then just adds to the game. Its war guys... if you are invading a country you don' stop and leave the farmers alone that are in a territory you are trying to take over. Penalties are for carebears and little kids who cry when their Gnome dies and who should stop playing on PVP servers and go back to PVE.
Next time you guys set up a debate like this, get a carebear and a true PVP player who appreciates all that it adds to games such as EVE and Lineage 2.
I'm kind of in the same boat as the writer of this piece. I enjoy pvp, but I'm a 47 year old gamer with a career and except for weekends, I usually come home exhausted and just wanting to log into game to do a bit of questing before turning in for the night instead of staring numbly at the t.v. like most other people my age. Of course, weekend PVP is a different story for me. I'm up for that.
The griefing got to be too much and I left WoW for several months because of it. I tried the carebear servers but the lack of pvp excitement got a tad boring. I like the PVP, but you get people corpse camping you, that's what bothers me, the corpse camping. Sitting on my corpse and a group of bullies in gank squads repeatedly killing you over and over just to be jerks, people use this game just to be jerks.
Kill me and move on. Or I kill you, I move on. There should be a deterent to corpse camping.
Despite the game being World of WARcraft there are pve servers, showing that not everyone agrees that 100% all the time pvp is A Good Thing.
Enough of that though...
From what a friend tells me (she still plays WoW I don't) is that on her pve server the "world pvp" usually is about 7 or 8 people total fighting over a tower or two. No big clashes, no mass guild vs guild, nothing. She does see some ganking by Strath, person is flagged after grabbing a tower their Strath group is ready he heads there and *BAM* wasted by the other factions group standing there.
Like many of the "world events" Blizzard comes up with they have very little impact on the world. When I did play the AQ War was going on, logon now and tell me if you see any evidence of this supposed war going on. Oh btw, the Scourge is invading too, lemme know if you see them actually invading anything.
The carebear is quite frankly a stupid immature comment. If a game isn't total gank or be ganked anywhere and I can loot all your stuff bury the body and make you cancel the account its CAREBEAR!!
I've said it before, PvP in mmorpgs is a pointless affair as long as levels exist.
You are simply pitting your "more time spent stats" against "less time spent stats" so griefing people is just a pathetic expression of your own desire for power.
It's cheap, boring, and stops the such games from have mass appeal.
Sorry couldn't hold it, hehe. Joke appart i alway played on pvp server on wow also, and i fail to see how world pvp is killing the fun, i would even say that its not happening enough (at least on the 3 servers i played), the part i admit is a lvl 60 ganking in low level zone is lame but such is the price of the freedom of pvp server.
Pvp server used to be nasty and fun back in the day before honor system and crap battleground, now its dead and shouldn't really have any impact except in few well know spot and zones that you can avoid on your way to the lvl 60. for raid its simple move all at once, learn to work with your teamate and guild.
If you can't survive wow pvp don't bother with any other pvp game around because wow while being fun is really soft.
Hehe,
I don't understand the OP point, but I will admit, I don't like PvP, period.
Personnally I play on PvE grounds and when I am enforced to enter a PvP area (such as Warbug for nukes or Bloody for shivans, both in CoV), I usually try to ignore all PvPers. CoX are build in a way that I was lucky enough to get a "Godmode" for a short time(usually 3 minutes or so). You know, when you hit "Unstoppable/Power Surge" (yeah I have 2 such brutes) or personnall force field (a MM), render you virtually immune to PvP if you don't engage in battle yourself (following you is already hard, following you in godmode is nearly impossible). I don't know why, but I see 2 scrappers and 1 blaster trying to gank me, I was running around, ignoring them, complete my mission and jet off, never retaliate to their attack and they barely where able to score minimal hits on me. Making me completing my nukes fairly safely despite been attacked by 3 gankers. I usually go wait INSIDE the hospital for my power to refresh before I continue a new step in my PvE goal, just to make sure I can walk outside of PvP freely.
I also find very useful to use Broadcast and /friends and say something such as: "Care Bear currently been ganked in Warbug, looking for kinds heroes or villains willing to deal with *insert ganker name*". Weither it is the gankers who where previously unable to hurt me that give up or if someone come and hunt them, I have no idea and I am grateful to walk away freely.
I never engage anyone in PvP, unless I am done with my PvE mishs and I am hunting back some gankers. I always leave anyone I never saw alone until they attack me. Most of my PvP battles actually occur as "duels", someone saw me doing my PvE mishs, "escort me" and once I am done with my PvE goals, we duel. With these players I don't run away, they where kind enough, they will get their victory. Someone who attack me even when I am available for PvP, if we didn't talk, I will run away rather than take a death, only with peoples that take time to talk and been nice do I make a stand, accepting the death.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
PVP is what it is, an anything goes environment. it's not that f&*Cking hard to level up on a PVP server. all it takes is some social skills to develop friendship within your own faction. I am guessing that is lacking in most WoW players.
I love PVP and PVE but i want to be able to do both without mixing them.
The Special forces feature SWG has where u can chose what u want to do when it suits is a great option for me.
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Don't click here...no2
All your issues are easily overcome if you play on a PVE server.
I have played WoW off and on, since beta. Its a great game, and it can be frustrating in pvp sometimes, BUT, that is what your guild is for. If you get "corpse camped" or "griefed" you bring the posse in to take care of the situation...Normally, this is where some of the best world pvp happens.
You say "I like the thrill of pvp, but hate the griefing" sounds more like you dont like to lose.
As I said, griefing can be annoying, but when it happens you have options:
Again, easily solved if you are on a PVE server, simply dont flag...then you can sit there and dance and swap spit with your enemy.
This comes from a mid-30s guy, that hails from the "uber nerdy" world of pen-and-paper roleplaying, and I like pvp. And yes, I will even roleplay while playing WoW (however, for the most part I have given up on that pipe dream.)
I was not quite sure where the argument was going, exactly, as it touched a bit on player mentality, and then on gameplay mechanics, and a bit on how they mesh. I find the PvP debate revolves more around what sort of people it inspires rather than how useful it is to the game, in general. I can not abide any system that encourages people to sink to the lowest common denominator. In forums, for instance, anything that encourages lashing out at others personally rather than reasonably and respectfully communicating makes us worse people (which includes lack of monitoring as well as open support of such behaviors).
In PvP, any mechanic that encourages the equivalent actions (lowbie slaughtering, corpse sitting, dungeon entrance farming, etc.) does more than just ruin the game for those who fall prey to such things, it encourages them to duplicate these activities. I have no idea if Garrett is a person who always got off on flexing his cybermuscles against those too weak to fight back, or if being such a person himself and being a victim of such things turned him into one, but really, the point is moot. Whether you start off being a jerk or grow into one, you still ARE one, and should be dealt with accordingly. A MMOG has just as much social responsibility to ensure this happens as any other. Sure, people will argue that atrocities happen all the time in real life, so why should a virtual world be any different? The counter to this is that just because certain things DO exist doesn't mean they SHOULD exist. I would hope that all people, ESPECIALLY those who have been victims, would want to do what they could to ensure others don't needlessly suffer, rather than just "join the crowd" of people who perpetuate misery, in a game or in real life. Carebears SHOULD play on PvE servers, and those who enjoy combatting others SHOULD crave a true challenge, rather than some empty victory that does nothing more than interfere with whatever enjoyment a defenseless person might be having. If we don't start taking steps to ensure that we are elevating others and ourselves through REAL PvP challenges, we shouldn't be surprised if everything around us degrades as a consequence.
39 yrs. old father of 3, small business owner. I like and reguarly engage in PvP. If I didn't I would play on a PvE server, as I suggest anyone who does not like PvP should do. In all honesty PvP in WoW is, as someone stated earlier, soft. World PvP adds to the excitement of the game, though I will agree camping is lame. Log off or do as I do, play a different character for 10-15 mins. Having a debate by two people who are mostly PvE types is not really a debate. And quite using age to make a point against PvP. Not all old farts are against it.
All gnomes should be killed on sight.
The problem with WoW is that if you don't have 4-5 hrs. to sit and raid you don't get the sweet gear and this caters to people who have little or no lives and mostly limited social skills. I think this will eventually kill WoW as these people can only sponge off their parents for so long and the people who can afford the monthly fees will tire of getting beaten by the basement dwellers who have no PvP skill but superior gear. I am always on the lookout for a game that is as fun but more fair to those of us who don't want to sit for 4-5 hours at a time. I have and still do play Eve, I prefer Fantasy to space.
My 2 copper, I'm off to see Hank 3 and do some stage diving.
PvP is just that. If you're against it, you do have a PvE option. That being said, yes, corpse camping or killing somebody 10 level bellow isn't fair (although I've seen 44 mage kill 60 warriors for example, that's 16 levels above). From my experience everybody hates such people and it's not hard to find help to deal with them.
Personally I think Blizzard could have done more to help this situation, but it's not that bad or desperate. Corpse camping should be allowed, but there should be something to help the weak side. In a way there is. You can always try to rez at the cemetery (unless that's where you get ganked). You can log and come back 10-15 minutes later. Usually person is gone by then. Many of the mechanics could ruin the game or backfire in other situations. If you want to PvP only when you're ready, play on PvE and PvP on battlegrounds.
More could be done, such as bounty system, or penalize dishonest killers by marking them visually, so that everybody can see, here's a guy who camps corpses and kills people 10 levels bellow, or allow guy who got ganked to track the killer for a little bit. Again, from my experience this isn't much of a problem. Yeah, sometimes it would waste time. I spend much more time fighting fair PvP fights then suffering from ganking. Most people adopted to the existing system and live just fine.
I believe that world PvP in WoW could be much more engaging and meaningful (yes, even the 'ganking') if all contested areas were actually contested for a REASON. What was done in the Plaguelands is exactly the kind of thing that makes PvP meaningful and not just a free-for-all gankfest.
Don't get me wrong, there's nothing more exhilerating than being outnumbered and yet somehow surviving (or dying but taking 'em down with you). Ganking is not a problem when there is a CONTEXT in which to look over your shoulder. Questing in an area where you know the enemy is actually MOTIVATED to find and kill you becomes a much more visceral experience or seeking the enemy out in piece of territory you're trying to secure is a hunt with a purpose.
Control of resources, control of questing areas, etc. (ala DAoC's realm control over the big central dungeon) makes open, self-governed PvPing/policing worthwhile and MEANINGFUL. Currently, the way WoW has it set up, the killing is mindless (still fun) but mindless and, quite frankly, without a lasting sense of reward.
CONTEXT is what makes anything meaningful. Without contextual PURPOSE, we are merely reducing any activity to a mechanical excercise of repetition.
my two cents anyhow.
flame on.
do it by yourself and it's weird. . .
do it with others and it's a club.
As long its the gankers that the game companies is listening to when putting pvp into a mmo game there is no end to ganking a lowlvl char except to piss someone off.
I can understand it on a pvprp server but not on a pure pvp server.
Of course players themself can help lvl the playing field but you dont always have that kind of possiblities because you are playing in hours others don´t play or other obstacles.
-Semper ubi sub ubi!
always wear underwear
How PvP SHOULD WORK.
PvP should be decided by the world as far as how and when it can occur.It should all be structured.It should be plentiful and meaningful to those partaking.
PvP should be asigned as missions by the factions in the world.
IE-PvP missions could/ would be attainable thru the local military which would give out PvP missions against those NOT of its faction.
These could be missions assigned in an open war with another faction, or ones meant as covert actions against a faction simply not liked.
PvP factions should include criminal organizations, law enforcement organizations,military organizations,trade organizations,politcal organizations, etc....
PvP missions should be schedulable.I should be able to arrange for a PvP mission from a faction PvP mission giver for a certain date and time (both realife and ingame).
PvP missions should begiven on an opposing basis.This means when 10 people ask for a PvP mission from a military faction PvP mission giver of the realm from King Johns realm,a counter mission should become available at military faction pvp mission givers who oppose King Johns realm.
PvP faction mission givers should now of and not award missions to those who have a large standing with an opposing faction.So if you really lay into King Johns faction by doing mission that are counter/opposing that realms,you wont be given missions by King johns realm UNLESS certain conditions apply.
PvP faction rewards will depend on your standing with the faction giving the mission and the assumed(by the giver) difficulty of the mission.
All rewards that can be gotten thru any other play style,will be possible to be get thru PvP missions.
WoW's a good example of a game that'd be totally useless without it's PvP. I enjoy the game a lot. I enjoy the art work, the action portion of the game play, and I've always been a Warcraft fan. But yeah the world is huge but everything is so liner and static. So PvP helps me to feel anticipation while rolling through a zone. The very feel of a contested zone can change according to who is or isn't around.
PvP should be.. Open everywhere and if you can't roll with that, go to a server where you don't have to PvP unless you choose to BG. Battlegrounds and arenas and what not are made for folks who 'dabble' in PvP and want to create these totally useless and extremely exploitable rule sets of what they think would work.
What works? Open PvP like in Shadowbane. Pick n' choose PvP like WoW's battlegrounds or even City of Whatever's side zones with caps. Also enjoyable, but I myself like being hunted / doing some hunting while mindlessly advancing along.
Here's my toss toward the 'DEBATE' tho'. Why I wish I were the guy defending open PvP instead of the tart who did... "I chose to be on a pvp server because I don't want to limit my options. BUT HERE'S WHAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE!" Point case, if you don't like to PvP then don't. Stop worrying about us who do and act all concern about our time wasted. Fact of the matter is we're paying to play a game. We're not advancing in status or social standing by leveling to 50 or 60 faster than everyone else. You play to have fun, and I have fun even if I'm the lone tauren warrior standing in Ashenvale when suddenly 12 mounted Alliance half wits jump me after passing me. Hey, I fight. I stomp, I yell, I try to win despite me missing totally.
But I agree with another person's point as well. Stat / weapon / armor central advancement will always make for unfair PvPing in MMOs. Until there's a skill based system with a few custom tweaks here and there to make combat interesting. It's what you got. Deal with it.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
Ok first off let me state that I dont play WoW ( I acully call it heracy when I hear about it lol) but from what I have seen on this topic here I have a PvP system that might be liked by many of you here.
First off there is no PvP or PvE severs, they are combined like in SWG and EVE.
next there is no asking to duel as in SWG you just pick a target and fight. be it another player or a NPC.
For the carbears ( and I admit I'm one of them
) there is a NPC "poilce" faction that if a player picks on someone in certain areas the "police" will arive to teach the "bad" player a lesson. but in many areas there IS NO "POLICE". So you have to be careful on were you go.
Next "death" has meaning. if you "die" you loes everything. you can clone and you dont lose your skills but all your gear is GONE. So be careful on were you go and if you fight someone you better be able to accept that you could lose.
There is no way to know what the other player can do in combat untill you fight them. there is no template or "flavor of the month" to be "uber" or "L33t" is impossible. There will ALWAYS be the chance that some newcomer that can come along and out think you or pull off a stunt that leaves you flatfooted.
This is the PvP system used by CCP in EVE Online and I would love to see it implimented in other MMOs. I truely beleve it would change how people play. I got tired of PvP in SWG because of the FOTM thing and sick of it after NGE because of the predictability of it.
As for WoW, I have seen player made videos and read variouse forum debates ( both here and elsewere) to see that it has more depth then some MMOs but it is still very simple, and the lack of impact is glareing. Unlike in EVE were the players CONTROL most of the gameing world and in SWG were for a while players dictated which cities were Imperial or Reble, except for a couple of cities on each planet the pwere perment.
But flame me or agree with me, I doubt that I will really get into a game that does not AT LEAST have the depth that EVE has, dont get me wrong I hope that other MMOs ( even WoW) add such depth to their games, but such a leap has been shown to be beyond many DEVs and company exsecutives.
PVP debate? that was definately a weak debate.
While I am pro pvp I fully understand the need for pve in todays market with the pve server clearly showing more people it would be stupid for any MMO maker to not set it up the way most of them do with both types of servers.With WOW and 7million subscribers you would think they could afford to put some code in to stop the 10 level below you ganking though. There will never be anything you can do about when a gang ganks you, its just not possible to stop it.
The gang type ganking has been going on since the first MMO to introduce pvp. (m59) Then of coarse UO unfolded and the truely massive pvp ganking was shown. Then pops out EQ the answer to all carebares dreams and the market realised there were truely more carebears than pks. EQ also had the best graphics which did not hurt its desire any.It goes on from there into Daoc which truely answered alot of the players problems as far as pvp and pve mix were concerned and I dont think any games to date have answered that call as well as Mythic did.
I think a good rule of thumb here is if you have a crappy pc dont pvp. But until you get out there and really get into pvp and have that first great one on one battle and win or loose you know it was a good fight you cant knock pvp. Its got a rush like nothing else in the gaming world and its you againt another person not some AI you know you can outthink.
played M59,UO,lineage,EQ,Daoc,Entropia,SWG,Horizons,Lineage2.EQ2,Vangaurd,Irth online, DarkFall,Star Trek
and many others that did not make the cut or i just plain forgetting about.
"Huntress"
I think that when you want to adhere to a "strict" definition of Player vs. Player, it does imply some level of competitive fairness.
To many people who developed a taste for PvP in early games such as Ultima Online or playing the Darktide server on Asheron's Call, "fair" was a pretty foreign concept...it just didn't exist. That was life, and you lived (or died) whether you liked it or not.
My personal experience playing AC DT I found that after getting killed over and over as a newbie, I didn't whine and complain about the fairness. I simply worked my way up the ladder until I could at least be competitive to higher level characters. I found being weak and vulnerable at low levels motivated me to become stronger and better at higher levels. Really motivated me. It motivated everyone I played with and against on that server. Once I was there, it was also gratifying to know that I could choose how I treated others. That I had the power to protect and help friends, to kill or gank enemies that I was stronger than or be an honourable player.
Once you code in equality or even create ethical restrictions into a game, I think that's unfair...unfair to the people who have worked hard to become stronger. It eliminates your ability to choose how you want to be known. I am not suggesting that all games should follow that PvP model; it is more of a Player Killer game than Player vs Player. However once you make games too soft you lose some of the appeal of being powerful.
As with everything the problem here is not with the system but with the people that use it.
If there were no petty little, short stroking jerks that get their jollies from beating up people weaker than them, virtually or otherwise then the world would be a better place.
I like PvP and the excitement of squaring off against another player as compared to the drudgery of fighting endless computer controlled mobs that all react in a predictable pattern of behaviour. Every player is different and engaging other players in an even contest is far more exciting than fighting something you know how to defeat every time.
What I object to is getting ambushed and killed in a single blow by a rogue who is more than twice your level, festooned with the best gear that money, or hundreds of hours of raiding can get you. Or when you're trying to escort the defias traitor to the deadmines entrance so you can reach the next part of the Van Cleef chain and a party of level 60 horde characters have taken it upon themselves to spend their entire evening ensuring that nobody can complete this level 18 quest. Or in Lineage 2 when you first step out of the noob town into the open PvP environment and being killed by a single spell from a black clad dark-elf and afraid to step foot out of town because he's still waiting outside for noobs to do just that!
The list of bad experiences I have had with PvP bullies in MMO's is endless and runs the gamut of games, UO, Lineage 1 and 2, SWG, EVE, WoW, Anarchy Online and Neocron 2. Sure I like PvP but I can do without the small minded JERKS that seem to gain pleasure from preventing other players from enjoying the game! The problem lies not with PvP but with a percentage of the players who revel in the frustration of others.
WoW has never been seen as a pvp game. There is no reason to even bother pvping in WoW beyond griefing people or to say I did the grind.
The 'gear' you get is worst then what you get from PvE raiding and the PvE raiders prepared to actually raid (ie carebears by any other game standards) can 'win' at pvp all they want.
At any rate to the OP. Sounds like every other carebear whine I've heard. You got ganked on a PvP server. What did you expect? Your rant will not change the fact assholes are everywhere and they'll gank while they're permitted to. You want actual pvp you'll need to go find another game...
WoW = Mac Donalds of the MMO Industry. All hype no nutrition. And in the future the MMO industry and gamers will pay for it by receiving WoW educated gamers into the market. I altready have friends ask me "But what is the end game?" in relation to games where the idea is to simply have fun. At any rate hopefully when ViVendi gets their asses sued off in Europe they'll need to find a buyer for WoW. If when/that happens SOE should be close by with a bank cheque...then we can get "The Vision" TM involved
The problem in WoW is not PvP, but game mechanics which allow griefing and other uneven battles. The design issues which create a bad PvP environment in WoW include:
1) Having fixed location quests which are known and can be camped. This makes it fairly easy to find someone to gank. To not do quests means leveling slowly, so the game basically creates this environment.
2) Having a "con" system. Knowing how powerful the enemy is is key to ganking, unless you just like to attack anything which moves. With knowledge of how powerful others are, it's easy to assess the situation and decide whether to avoid or gank a group or individual. This is a game design feature which gives the cautious assailant all the advantage he could want.
3) PvP vs someone with only 10% health left isn't griefing. It's taking advantage of a poorly prepared enemy. He should not have a) been out there soloing in a pvp area, and b) running around with so low of health. Granted, it's not easy to detect when enemies are around, and the camper need only wait until his target aggros a mob to gain the advantage. There are a lot of things creating this situation, and going solo is certainly not the only one. Again, it falls on game design creating the situation which gives the hidden attacker the advantage.
4) There's no way to create a "safe zone." It's pretty easy to travel in WoW and to communicate to anyone. This makes for an environment where one side ganks, then the ganked call in the level 60's (or whoever they can get) and they reverse-gank the gankers. However, hit and run is certainly possible, and though there are ways to travel fast and talk to anyone in the game, there is no way to hunt down an enemy, short of getting a certain distance away from them and using a skill or line of sight. No footprints are left in the sand.
5) Death is of no consequence. The player doesn't lose anything of consequence, so ganking comes with very little to lose or discourage it. Not only that, but resurrection is fairly fast, and as I mentioned in #4, travel makes it pretty easy to return and continue the grieffest.
I'm sure there are a dozen more reasons why PvP doesn't work well in WoW, but I don't see the point in continuing.