I've gota say I hate this whole "carebear" thing, who made it up?!? Ganking and killing greys is like whacking on a 5 yearold kid. A gray litteraly has 100% no chance, and people who do that have no personal honor in RL. I hate to beat up on PvP server people, and yes I do play a PvE after I found that WoW pvp sucks outside of BGs. DAoC had it right, questing zones, and pvp zones it just makes complete sence. For those that say War is unfair and dirty, thats because modern warfare sucks, and seems to have lost any form of honor. Seeing as this is a fantasy game and not a modern combat game, honor in war is part of the game (outside of the undead).
In short, gankers are gutless people, who have no sence of honor. Sadly WoW cant see that their pvp servers suck, they just see high populations. In all reality EQ2 has it right, pvp can only be done within a level range (commons and antonica are 8 above/bellow) and the higher you go the bigger the gap. I'll play pvp on EQ2 any day, but outside of the BGs I hate pvp in wow.
I suppose the best way to avoid ganking would be to stop assigning quests in contested zones or at least put up better defenses between zones. Ashenvale, for instance, is nearly impossible to get any quests done in because it's right next to all the Horde territories and you're doing quests there in the low-20s. If you want the added risk, you can take the quests into those zones in exchange for greater rewards and such.
For the occupied zones, there should be police forces of some kind (better than the current NPCs in the most common zones, as the current ones are nearly as easily killed as the lowbies) or perhaps a warrant system. If the person was looking for recognition, the more he kills the higher the warrant becomes, and so everyone will know him because they will be after him. That latter part is the downside. Maybe an announcement by the border forces if he's spotted or when he strikes again. People can already return from the dead, so it's not like it has to be realistic.
The World PvP is a good thing for the setting, but it needs to be fine tuned so people can still have fun.
STOP...you're just a silly little bunch of 4-year-olds who get your kicks trying to 'see whose is bigger.' Do grow up and stop feeding the dysfunctional nature of PvP.
This has to be the worst editorial ever.. First of, who the hell wants to discuss the piece of crap carebear garbage WoW calls "pvp"? If you want to make a debate about pvp in a game, do so, but pick a real game with true mmo pvp.
_____________________ I am the flipside of the coin on which the troll and the fanboy are but one side.
Originally posted by Starbear I've gota say I hate this whole "carebear" thing, who made it up?!? Ganking and killing greys is like whacking on a 5 yearold kid. A gray litteraly has 100% no chance, and people who do that have no personal honor in RL. I hate to beat up on PvP server people, and yes I do play a PvE after I found that WoW pvp sucks outside of BGs. DAoC had it right, questing zones, and pvp zones it just makes complete sence. For those that say War is unfair and dirty, thats because modern warfare sucks, and seems to have lost any form of honor. Seeing as this is a fantasy game and not a modern combat game, honor in war is part of the game (outside of the undead). In short, gankers are gutless people, who have no sence of honor. Sadly WoW cant see that their pvp servers suck, they just see high populations. In all reality EQ2 has it right, pvp can only be done within a level range (commons and antonica are 8 above/bellow) and the higher you go the bigger the gap. I'll play pvp on EQ2 any day, but outside of the BGs I hate pvp in wow.
I've read many here saying "I like (both) PvP (and PvE), but I don't want to get annoyed while PvEing". The fact is you obviously don't enjoy PvP the same way really PvP-oriented players do (I personnaly call your kind "bored carebears" = people that try PvP only because they are bored with their neverending grind (don't feel obliged to flame me for this, I already know that's rude), I was one of those back when I played WoW).
If you are on a PvP server, you can't complain about anything PvP-related imo. You made the wrong choice when you chose your server's type (many chose PvP-servers only because that sounded "hip" ^^ without thinking of what it meant). Blizzard cannot make you ungankable/uncampable/whatever on their PvP server of course. Why ? Because in WoW, PvP is very soft already. Even softer PvP would mean there is no PvP left, and that would be a problem for those so-called PvP servers
Originally posted by Starbear In short, gankers are gutless people, who have no sence of honor. Sadly WoW cant see that their pvp servers suck, they just see high populations. In all reality EQ2 has it right, pvp can only be done within a level range (commons and antonica are 8 above/bellow) and the higher you go the bigger the gap. I'll play pvp on EQ2 any day, but outside of the BGs I hate pvp in wow.
The only PvP part i was not disgusted by in WoW was the open-PvP. BGs clearly are a joke (capture the flag ? PvE quests inside the BG? please...).
The problem with WoW is that it's not designed around PvP. One thing that always bothered me is the ability to see the exact level and health of your opponent, or the inability to hide in a bush because a huge red name is over your head. It's easy to kill someone if he's at 10% health, easy to run away if he's at 100% health, but what to do if you can't see his health or mana bars, or level for that matter? It adds a new dimension, and will change your fighting strategy.
WoW's PvP has always been the joke of all MMOs in my opinion, as is the reason people often say 'wait for Warhammer'. Capture the Flag? We're at war here, yet you want me to capture the flag? We raid a town with 30 people, get punished for killing vendors, can't kill children, and have new guards spawn on us every 5 seconds that will eventually overrun us. Some PvP you have there. A reward system is in place that's designed for people playing 24 hours a day. The only thing happening when you die is a 20 seconds corpserun. If you're grinding in a contested area with a player of the opposing faction, you'll often find the players not attacking eachother, because both know it's pointless. There is no gain from a kill, and the other player will be back in 15 seconds to avenge his death.
It's not a PvP game, and this debate.. I don't know if Joe and Garrett have ever seen a debate but this was not one. It's funny to see Garrett start off with "I've always been a ganking type of person", yet end with "write code that prohibits the players fighting anything 10 levels below them"
Carebear points of discussion for a WoW open PvP debate: - Ganking is frustrating - Corpsecamping is annoying - If you want to PvP go to battlegrounds - PvP is not for me. Transferring to PvE needs to be possible or my experience is ruined. - Why must I wait 4 minutes before I can resurrect after someone killed me 4 times?
Hardcore points of discussion for a WoW open PvP debate: - Taking over towns should be an option - A death penalty should be added - Why can't I loot my opponent? - Why can't I even rest long enough to regain health before my opponent is back to stomp me? - Why can someone who's running into a wall in a battleground 14 hours a day get the highest rank, but I, with 3 hours of play a day and a kill:death ratio in 30:1 am stuck in one of the lowest ranks? - Why can't I kill people of my own faction after they scam me? - Why can't I kill people of the opposing faction in certain zones, even on PvP servers?
You want to make a debate, make it a good one. What I read was not a debate, just random comments that didn't even go into detail of ... well, anything at all.
As much as I hate PvP, I have to agree with Garrett: if you go to a PvP server, you do it mainly and above all because either you enjoy being ganked or consider it an acceptable price for being allowed to gank others. Since the ability to gank and to get ganked is the ONLY thing that separates PvP and PvE servers, the whole argument is pointless.
You got to be freakin kidding me, who the hell are those two clowns? PvP in WoW, is almost non-exsistant! It's more like uber gear vs uber gear, or pansie honor farming twink !@#!@$ Blizzard did more than drop the ball with PvP, they freakin lost it! There is no meaning to PvP, there is no risk, no reason to go out and risk yourself to gain anything. It's all about item whoring, period.
Bah I'm done, I've been down this road way to freakin many times on the same subject. Blizz is not going to change it, it's beyond repair now.
i'm 43, father of 3, we all 4 play... pvp only. Even so, these games (MMOs) get boring pretty quick. AI is just to weak to create any real degree of IMMERSION imo (which is the whole point really). When we all 4 played WoW, it was pre-BG, and it was a blast... big long battles in BB were my favorite... a REAL pirate town. Eventually the server kept getting bigger and the 30v30 SS-TM battles turned into 100v100, and the game broke down because of LAG... (which is the REAL reason BGs were created to begin with).
But everyone I know and played with, wanted even more pvp... i.e. we wanted a FREE-FOR-ALL server. I never really 'camped' people, but I would kill em if I saw them... and random battles that would form here and there were great. STV in the 30s was the best part of WoW.
Anyone who would consider or say the phrase "I want to get something done" or "I want to gather some resources" or "I want to finish this quest and level" .... should DEFINATELY be playing on a PVE server. It's when the PVE people (the two writers debating in this article) want to play on PVP servers that the whole thing goes the wrong direction. I wanted MORE pvp... i want FREE-FOR-ALL. No one is ever forced to do anything they don't want or enjoy, and all whining based on that premise, given the fact that the choice for PVE servers exist, is completely ridiculous. Play on a PVE server!!! .... jeeze...
Next "death" has meaning. if you "die" you loes everything. you can clone and you dont lose your skills but all your gear is GONE. So be careful on were you go and if you fight someone you better be able to accept that you could lose.
So person x has to die over and over when he has lost his equipment to attain a new set? Sounds excessively harsh and time-consuming.
Hmm not sure about many people attacking one player ganking wise, but in terms of a higher level attacking a lower level I blame the pvp system. The way I see it is a lower level player SHOULD have a chance of killing a higher level player. Why? Lets take a fps, ANYONE can aim at each other. Lets say someone in that fps levels up and gains more hp- he can still be killed. The same should be for mmorpgs, why should there be an artificial boundary implemented where every spell you cast is a resist or a melee dodge. It is already enough the higher level players have much superior gear and abilities.
Gameplay-wise, I think WoW's style is the most complelling. I can vividly remember moments when the hair on the back of my neck was standing up because of the skeletons littering the ground (indicating recent fighting). This was exciting! I will admit being a victim of gnkage and not logging in for a day or 2 because I was so pissed, but I did come back and gank back harder than ever
PvP in WoW is roughly the equivalent of the "red headed step-child".
PvP was never really a concern for Blizzard. PvE is the meat and potato's of the game. It's proven over and over again. Cross realms battlegrounds have ruined cooperation and teamwork. Queues have become amazingly long on some servers and very short on others. Battlegrounds are filled with AFK honor leeches that Blizzard seems to want to do nothing about. The expansion has promised us 5-5 3-3 and 2-2 arena combat.......a far cry from the original AV and the slaughterfest that it delivered prior to Crossrealms.
World PvP is a joke. You PvP for 5 min (if in fact you encounter anyone who might try to stop you) and when you complete your little objective (take a tower, or gather some dust) you get a buff mainly set up for PvE raids. Funny that both World PvP "battles" take place in some of the most highly trafficed areas in terms of raids.
The honor system is beyond hope. I acheived rank 10 on my server even at my measily 3-5 hours of playtime each day. Anything past rank 10 would require me to quit my job, leave my wife and abandon my children.
First of all, when discussing PvP, we should separate the minority who like the anarchy of totally open PvP, give them their own server like AC did with Darktide and then let the rest discuss what the rules should be. I don't know why those that want anarchy even play RPGs instead of FPS when they have little interest in RP.
While WoW PvP could have been much more meaningful, the way it has been implemented seems very artificial. What is contested in the 'contested zones'? You can't take over or control anything and there are no lasting consequences to any action. Sure you can raid a town and wipe out all the NPCs, but 30 minutes later they are all back again as though nothing has happened, so there is little motivation to defend your town unless you are strong enough to have a chance to survive. I know its too late to make any major changes to WoW PvP, but they should at least make killing a grey player as dishonerable kill unless they initiated the fight.
Of the dozens on online games that I've played, I think SWG had the best implementated (had, meaning before the redesign). The problem of ganking low levels was largely solved by allowing players to choose when they wanted to stop being neutral and pick a side. If you didn't like getting picked on as a low level, you could wait until you had advanced and felt strong enough. If you liked the risk of being a low level target, you could do that too.
In WoW, I think a great addition for the expansion would have been to add the goblins as a playable race with an emphasis on crafting and trading. They could be the neutrals in the game that could talk to both sides and safely visit both sides capital cities. A starting island between Ratchet and Booty Bay would fit right in.
I find the 'debate' a little restrained and lacking focus so I will simply address a pet peeve of mine...the notion that the little people cannot be effective fighters.
It must be peaceful having such a lack of imagination. Bigger=better
If a human can charge a giant or a dragon then surely a gnome can confront a larger, more clumsy Tauren (the David and Goliath story applies here). Within a fantasy setting the races are not simply small or large versions of a human base. If a gnome is as strong as a Tauren by some set scale then I imagine that the gnome is either composed of muscles like steel cable or fueled by some arcane energy.
The Jet Li version of an arena combatant if you will or perhaps, in this scenario, the relatively small matador versus a charging bull.
I suppose if it were a superhero game it would be easier for some although in this setting I suppose that the player characters are almost superheroes compared to the average population of their race.
Okay, okay I derailed and to make it even worse I responded to an obvious joke but I couldn't help myself.
Originally posted by dadown First of all, when discussing PvP, we should separate the minority who like the anarchy of totally open PvP, give them their own server like AC did with Darktide and then let the rest discuss what the rules should be. I don't know why those that want anarchy even play RPGs instead of FPS when they have little interest in RP.
Because it's too difficult to grief on an FPS. With an actual "War" game the playing field is pretty even so even the guy who just started the same day and hasn't even learned all the controls will kill you if he gets the jump, you know, because having played 18 hours a day for 3 months doesn't make newbie bullets any less effective. That and the only real way to make yourself overpowered is to be skillful. I don't think anyone who's killing people 10 levels below them with a squad all day is looking for that kind of challenge.
The only way to prevent griefing is to restrict the levels you're able to attack. If you add penalties people will only make low level characters and continue trying to grief when they see a fight going on by running into AoE's or making people mistarget.
Originally posted by dadown First of all, when discussing PvP, we should separate the minority who like the anarchy of totally open PvP, give them their own server like AC did with Darktide and then let the rest discuss what the rules should be. I don't know why those that want anarchy even play RPGs instead of FPS when they have little interest in RP.
ugh... this is the kind of low-forhead overgeneralizing that makes me wander why I even waste my time at this site...
player-1: Look, the default normal designed form of the game is PVE !! You got dueling, classes, quests, crafting, even battlegrounds with "honor"... numerous servers to play on, have fun! We want to have a server where we can fight each other...then we are happy, and you are happy... everyone is happy!! We don't necessarily want a lot of servers... just one. Let the market decide. If a lot of people want more pvp, then the game runner can fire up more pvp servers. If more pve servers are desired by the playing public, then they can fire up more of them. EVERYONE should get to play and have fun, fun being defined by what they say is fun... pve, pvp, whatever...
player-2: No way! If you want PVP, you should quite playing MMORPG games and play only FPS games where it is even and fair! PVP is inconsistent with role-playing; just go away. I don't really know WHY I want you to go away... I really don't know WHY I'm not just playing on PVE servers... I just don't like it that you enjoy fighting other players instead of just NPCs and MOBs like me... it's just not right I tell you. Maybe it has something to do with this large pole stuck my arse? Maybe I got dropped on my head when I was little and it never completely healed. In any case, we don't want you to pvp in a manner we don't approve of; so go away.
The anti-pvp arguements I have seen on these forums have got to be the most retarded things I've ever read. IF there was only pvp servers, THEN there would be a big major point.... but there are both pve and pvp servers available! I swear I must be living in crazyland...
Originally posted by airhead Originally posted by dadown First of all, when discussing PvP, we should separate the minority who like the anarchy of totally open PvP, give them their own server like AC did with Darktide and then let the rest discuss what the rules should be. I don't know why those that want anarchy even play RPGs instead of FPS when they have little interest in RP.
ugh... this is the kind of low-forhead overgeneralizing that makes me wander why I even waste my time at this site...
player-1: Look, the default normal designed form of the game is PVE !! You got dueling, classes, quests, crafting, even battlegrounds with "honor"... numerous servers to play on, have fun! We want to have a server where we can fight each other...then we are happy, and you are happy... everyone is happy!! We don't necessarily want a lot of servers... just one. Let the market decide. If a lot of people want more pvp, then the game runner can fire up more pvp servers. If more pve servers are desired by the playing public, then they can fire up more of them. EVERYONE should get to play and have fun, fun being defined by what they say is fun... pve, pvp, whatever...
player-2: No way! If you want PVP, you should quite playing MMORPG games and play only FPS games where it is even and fair! PVP is inconsistent with role-playing; just go away. I don't really know WHY I want you to go away... I really don't know WHY I'm not just playing on PVE servers... I just don't like it that you enjoy fighting other players instead of just NPCs and MOBs like me... it's just not right I tell you. Maybe it has something to do with this large pole stuck my arse? Maybe I got dropped on my head when I was little and it never completely healed. In any case, we don't want you to pvp in a manner we don't approve of; so go away.
The anti-pvp arguements I have seen on these forums have got to be the most retarded things I've ever read. IF there was only pvp servers, THEN there would be a big major point.... but there are both pve and pvp servers available! I swear I must be living in crazyland...
Haven't seen any anti-pvp arguments around here. Crazyland is a definite possibility.
Combat is so well balanced that if you kill someone they will be back in 2 minutes undeterred and annoying you again while you are trying to level to 60 as quickly as possible. You cant not go into an area because you want to avoid conflict, becuase you have to go there to "level". Leveling is just bs time wasting. Your PvP actions have no effect on the world. Sure MAYBE if you kill the leader of the opposing side the server just gets reset. How boring.
Whats the point of playing a game PvE only, wow is as lame as it gets already. You forgot roleplaying servers btw.
The only thing carrying this game is the fanchise of warcraft. If every1 judged the game on its mechanics no one would play it. Its crap.
Originally posted by _Seeker ... The only thing carrying this game is the fanchise of warcraft. If every1 judged the game on its mechanics no one would play it. Its crap.
Please tell me that you are kidding and that you don't really believe your rediculous statement. I would be very suprised if more than 1% keep playing just because it is a warcraft franchise, I know it certainly is irrelevent for me whether it has the warcraft label on it. People pay to play it because they have fun (and if they pay to play something they aren't enjoying, then they need counselling). If you don't have fun playing it, that's fine too, as everyone has their own preferences. Just don't claim that a game that over 50% of the people CHOOSE to play is crap, because if it really was, then it wouldn't be the most sucessful online game in world (which it is)!
LOL This is somewhat silly, reminds me of a debate for the sake of having a debate over a non-issue. PVP is meaningless in WOW, (other than for the fun of a good fight). One side cannot "control" territory over precious rescources, it doesnt affect the storyline, and you can't even loot the fallen. I've never been huge on PVP (because mostly there is no point, and because it is almost always poorly done), yet I do enjoy a little PVP action occasionally for the adrenaline rush. PVP battle is always the most challenging and thereby the most exciting kind of battle in a game environment. However except for a few games, its almost never implemented well. Anarchy Online gets props for sucessfully implenting PVP combat, that had meaning and never involved ganking. Games that implement unlimited PVP are rarely very successful as the uncontrolled ganking drives away most potential new players.
Is PVP combat "ruining" WOW? Hardly, most of the servers are PVE!.
As usual the wrong question is being asked.
The real question is "How do you improve WOW PVP without ruining the game for everyone?" Personally I wish every world had some contested zone's, with quests crucial to both sides within", I would focus on areas for characters level 30+. Theres something wrong when I go to searing gorge on my PVE server and the Horde and alliance flight points are like 100 feet apart.
Comments
I've gota say I hate this whole "carebear" thing, who made it up?!? Ganking and killing greys is like whacking on a 5 yearold kid. A gray litteraly has 100% no chance, and people who do that have no personal honor in RL. I hate to beat up on PvP server people, and yes I do play a PvE after I found that WoW pvp sucks outside of BGs. DAoC had it right, questing zones, and pvp zones it just makes complete sence. For those that say War is unfair and dirty, thats because modern warfare sucks, and seems to have lost any form of honor. Seeing as this is a fantasy game and not a modern combat game, honor in war is part of the game (outside of the undead).
In short, gankers are gutless people, who have no sence of honor. Sadly WoW cant see that their pvp servers suck, they just see high populations. In all reality EQ2 has it right, pvp can only be done within a level range (commons and antonica are 8 above/bellow) and the higher you go the bigger the gap. I'll play pvp on EQ2 any day, but outside of the BGs I hate pvp in wow.
I suppose the best way to avoid ganking would be to stop assigning quests in contested zones or at least put up better defenses between zones. Ashenvale, for instance, is nearly impossible to get any quests done in because it's right next to all the Horde territories and you're doing quests there in the low-20s. If you want the added risk, you can take the quests into those zones in exchange for greater rewards and such.
For the occupied zones, there should be police forces of some kind (better than the current NPCs in the most common zones, as the current ones are nearly as easily killed as the lowbies) or perhaps a warrant system. If the person was looking for recognition, the more he kills the higher the warrant becomes, and so everyone will know him because they will be after him. That latter part is the downside. Maybe an announcement by the border forces if he's spotted or when he strikes again. People can already return from the dead, so it's not like it has to be realistic.
The World PvP is a good thing for the setting, but it needs to be fine tuned so people can still have fun.
_____________________
I am the flipside of the coin on which the troll and the fanboy are but one side.
EDIT: It works now
I've read many here saying "I like (both) PvP (and PvE), but I don't want to get annoyed while PvEing". The fact is you obviously don't enjoy PvP the same way really PvP-oriented players do (I personnaly call your kind "bored carebears" = people that try PvP only because they are bored with their neverending grind (don't feel obliged to flame me for this, I already know that's rude), I was one of those back when I played WoW).
If you are on a PvP server, you can't complain about anything PvP-related imo. You made the wrong choice when you chose your server's type
(many chose PvP-servers only because that sounded "hip" ^^ without thinking of what it meant). Blizzard cannot make you ungankable/uncampable/whatever on their PvP server of course. Why ? Because in WoW, PvP is very soft already. Even softer PvP would mean there is no PvP left, and that would be a problem for those so-called PvP servers 
The only PvP part i was not disgusted by in WoW was the open-PvP. BGs clearly are a joke (capture the flag ? PvE quests inside the BG? please...).---
Waiting for: GW2
*thumbs up*: GW, Eve(, WoW)
*thumbs down*: MO, GA, FE
The problem with WoW is that it's not designed around PvP. One thing that always bothered me is the ability to see the exact level and health of your opponent, or the inability to hide in a bush because a huge red name is over your head. It's easy to kill someone if he's at 10% health, easy to run away if he's at 100% health, but what to do if you can't see his health or mana bars, or level for that matter? It adds a new dimension, and will change your fighting strategy.
WoW's PvP has always been the joke of all MMOs in my opinion, as is the reason people often say 'wait for Warhammer'. Capture the Flag? We're at war here, yet you want me to capture the flag? We raid a town with 30 people, get punished for killing vendors, can't kill children, and have new guards spawn on us every 5 seconds that will eventually overrun us. Some PvP you have there. A reward system is in place that's designed for people playing 24 hours a day. The only thing happening when you die is a 20 seconds corpserun. If you're grinding in a contested area with a player of the opposing faction, you'll often find the players not attacking eachother, because both know it's pointless. There is no gain from a kill, and the other player will be back in 15 seconds to avenge his death.
It's not a PvP game, and this debate.. I don't know if Joe and Garrett have ever seen a debate but this was not one. It's funny to see Garrett start off with "I've always been a ganking type of person", yet end with "write code that prohibits the players fighting anything 10 levels below them"
Carebear points of discussion for a WoW open PvP debate:
- Ganking is frustrating
- Corpsecamping is annoying
- If you want to PvP go to battlegrounds
- PvP is not for me. Transferring to PvE needs to be possible or my experience is ruined.
- Why must I wait 4 minutes before I can resurrect after someone killed me 4 times?
Hardcore points of discussion for a WoW open PvP debate:
- Taking over towns should be an option
- A death penalty should be added
- Why can't I loot my opponent?
- Why can't I even rest long enough to regain health before my opponent is back to stomp me?
- Why can someone who's running into a wall in a battleground 14 hours a day get the highest rank, but I, with 3 hours of play a day and a kill:death ratio in 30:1 am stuck in one of the lowest ranks?
- Why can't I kill people of my own faction after they scam me?
- Why can't I kill people of the opposing faction in certain zones, even on PvP servers?
You want to make a debate, make it a good one. What I read was not a debate, just random comments that didn't even go into detail of ... well, anything at all.
You got to be freakin kidding me, who the hell are those two clowns? PvP in WoW, is almost non-exsistant! It's more like uber gear vs uber gear, or pansie honor farming twink !@#!@$ Blizzard did more than drop the ball with PvP, they freakin lost it! There is no meaning to PvP, there is no risk, no reason to go out and risk yourself to gain anything. It's all about item whoring, period.
Bah I'm done, I've been down this road way to freakin many times on the same subject. Blizz is not going to change it, it's beyond repair now.
i'm 43, father of 3, we all 4 play... pvp only. Even so, these games (MMOs) get boring pretty quick. AI is just to weak to create any real degree of IMMERSION imo (which is the whole point really). When we all 4 played WoW, it was pre-BG, and it was a blast... big long battles in BB were my favorite... a REAL pirate town. Eventually the server kept getting bigger and the 30v30 SS-TM battles turned into 100v100, and the game broke down because of LAG... (which is the REAL reason BGs were created to begin with).
But everyone I know and played with, wanted even more pvp... i.e. we wanted a FREE-FOR-ALL server. I never really 'camped' people, but I would kill em if I saw them... and random battles that would form here and there were great. STV in the 30s was the best part of WoW.
Anyone who would consider or say the phrase "I want to get something done" or "I want to gather some resources" or "I want to finish this quest and level" .... should DEFINATELY be playing on a PVE server.
It's when the PVE people (the two writers debating in this article) want to play on PVP servers that the whole thing goes the wrong direction. I wanted MORE pvp... i want FREE-FOR-ALL. No one is ever forced to do anything they don't want or enjoy, and all whining based on that premise, given the fact that the choice for PVE servers exist, is completely ridiculous. Play on a PVE server!!! .... jeeze...
PvP in WoW is roughly the equivalent of the "red headed step-child".
PvP was never really a concern for Blizzard. PvE is the meat and potato's of the game. It's proven over and over again. Cross realms battlegrounds have ruined cooperation and teamwork. Queues have become amazingly long on some servers and very short on others. Battlegrounds are filled with AFK honor leeches that Blizzard seems to want to do nothing about. The expansion has promised us 5-5 3-3 and 2-2 arena combat.......a far cry from the original AV and the slaughterfest that it delivered prior to Crossrealms.
World PvP is a joke. You PvP for 5 min (if in fact you encounter anyone who might try to stop you) and when you complete your little objective (take a tower, or gather some dust) you get a buff mainly set up for PvE raids. Funny that both World PvP "battles" take place in some of the most highly trafficed areas in terms of raids.
The honor system is beyond hope. I acheived rank 10 on my server even at my measily 3-5 hours of playtime each day. Anything past rank 10 would require me to quit my job, leave my wife and abandon my children.
First of all, when discussing PvP, we should separate the minority who like the anarchy of totally open PvP, give them their own server like AC did with Darktide and then let the rest discuss what the rules should be. I don't know why those that want anarchy even play RPGs instead of FPS when they have little interest in RP.
While WoW PvP could have been much more meaningful, the way it has been implemented seems very artificial. What is contested in the 'contested zones'? You can't take over or control anything and there are no lasting consequences to any action. Sure you can raid a town and wipe out all the NPCs, but 30 minutes later they are all back again as though nothing has happened, so there is little motivation to defend your town unless you are strong enough to have a chance to survive. I know its too late to make any major changes to WoW PvP, but they should at least make killing a grey player as dishonerable kill unless they initiated the fight.
Of the dozens on online games that I've played, I think SWG had the best implementated (had, meaning before the redesign). The problem of ganking low levels was largely solved by allowing players to choose when they wanted to stop being neutral and pick a side. If you didn't like getting picked on as a low level, you could wait until you had advanced and felt strong enough. If you liked the risk of being a low level target, you could do that too.
In WoW, I think a great addition for the expansion would have been to add the goblins as a playable race with an emphasis on crafting and trading. They could be the neutrals in the game that could talk to both sides and safely visit both sides capital cities. A starting island between Ratchet and Booty Bay would fit right in.
It must be peaceful having such a lack of imagination.
If a human can charge a giant or a dragon then surely a gnome can confront a larger, more clumsy Tauren (the David and Goliath story applies here). Within a fantasy setting the races are not simply small or large versions of a human base. If a gnome is as strong as a Tauren by some set scale then I imagine that the gnome is either composed of muscles like steel cable or fueled by some arcane energy.
The Jet Li version of an arena combatant if you will or perhaps, in this scenario, the relatively small matador versus a charging bull.
I suppose if it were a superhero game it would be easier for some although in this setting I suppose that the player characters are almost superheroes compared to the average population of their race.
Okay, okay I derailed and to make it even worse I responded to an obvious joke but I couldn't help myself.
The only way to prevent griefing is to restrict the levels you're able to attack. If you add penalties people will only make low level characters and continue trying to grief when they see a fight going on by running into AoE's or making people mistarget.
player-1: Look, the default normal designed form of the game is PVE !! You got dueling, classes, quests, crafting, even battlegrounds with "honor"... numerous servers to play on, have fun! We want to have a server where we can fight each other...then we are happy, and you are happy... everyone is happy!! We don't necessarily want a lot of servers... just one. Let the market decide. If a lot of people want more pvp, then the game runner can fire up more pvp servers. If more pve servers are desired by the playing public, then they can fire up more of them. EVERYONE should get to play and have fun, fun being defined by what they say is fun... pve, pvp, whatever...
player-2: No way! If you want PVP, you should quite playing MMORPG games and play only FPS games where it is even and fair! PVP is inconsistent with role-playing; just go away. I don't really know WHY I want you to go away... I really don't know WHY I'm not just playing on PVE servers... I just don't like it that you enjoy fighting other players instead of just NPCs and MOBs like me... it's just not right I tell you. Maybe it has something to do with this large pole stuck my arse? Maybe I got dropped on my head when I was little and it never completely healed. In any case, we don't want you to pvp in a manner we don't approve of; so go away.
The anti-pvp arguements I have seen on these forums have got to be the most retarded things I've ever read. IF there was only pvp servers, THEN there would be a big major point.... but there are both pve and pvp servers available! I swear I must be living in crazyland...
please stay far away from Darkfall Online, kthxbye
player-1: Look, the default normal designed form of the game is PVE !! You got dueling, classes, quests, crafting, even battlegrounds with "honor"... numerous servers to play on, have fun! We want to have a server where we can fight each other...then we are happy, and you are happy... everyone is happy!! We don't necessarily want a lot of servers... just one. Let the market decide. If a lot of people want more pvp, then the game runner can fire up more pvp servers. If more pve servers are desired by the playing public, then they can fire up more of them. EVERYONE should get to play and have fun, fun being defined by what they say is fun... pve, pvp, whatever...
player-2: No way! If you want PVP, you should quite playing MMORPG games and play only FPS games where it is even and fair! PVP is inconsistent with role-playing; just go away. I don't really know WHY I want you to go away... I really don't know WHY I'm not just playing on PVE servers... I just don't like it that you enjoy fighting other players instead of just NPCs and MOBs like me... it's just not right I tell you. Maybe it has something to do with this large pole stuck my arse? Maybe I got dropped on my head when I was little and it never completely healed. In any case, we don't want you to pvp in a manner we don't approve of; so go away.
The anti-pvp arguements I have seen on these forums have got to be the most retarded things I've ever read. IF there was only pvp servers, THEN there would be a big major point.... but there are both pve and pvp servers available! I swear I must be living in crazyland...
Haven't seen any anti-pvp arguments around here. Crazyland is a definite possibility.
The effects of world PvP in WoW?
There are none.
Combat is so well balanced that if you kill someone they will be back in 2 minutes undeterred and annoying you again while you are trying to level to 60 as quickly as possible. You cant not go into an area because you want to avoid conflict, becuase you have to go there to "level". Leveling is just bs time wasting. Your PvP actions have no effect on the world. Sure MAYBE if you kill the leader of the opposing side the server just gets reset. How boring.
Whats the point of playing a game PvE only, wow is as lame as it gets already. You forgot roleplaying servers btw.
The only thing carrying this game is the fanchise of warcraft. If every1 judged the game on its mechanics no one would play it. Its crap.
This is somewhat silly, reminds me of a debate for the sake of having a debate over a non-issue. PVP is meaningless in WOW, (other than for the fun of a good fight). One side cannot "control" territory over precious rescources, it doesnt affect the storyline, and you can't even loot the fallen. I've never been huge on PVP (because mostly there is no point, and because it is almost always poorly done), yet I do enjoy a little PVP action occasionally for the adrenaline rush. PVP battle is always the most challenging and thereby the most exciting kind of battle in a game environment. However except for a few games, its almost never implemented well. Anarchy Online gets props for sucessfully implenting PVP combat, that had meaning and never involved ganking. Games that implement unlimited PVP are rarely very successful as the uncontrolled ganking drives away most potential new players.
Is PVP combat "ruining" WOW? Hardly, most of the servers are PVE!.
As usual the wrong question is being asked.
The real question is "How do you improve WOW PVP without ruining the game for everyone?" Personally I wish every world had some contested zone's, with quests crucial to both sides within", I would focus on areas for characters level 30+. Theres something wrong when I go to searing gorge on my PVE server and the Horde and alliance flight points are like 100 feet apart.
Rigghawk
Rigghawk