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What is about the Web that brings out the worst in peeps?
chlaos
Member Posts: 1,118
This is a serious question that I have been wondering about for years. What is it about internet mesage boards or even live games, that seems to bring out the very worst in people. To a large degree you have people that are relatively palatable in normal life becoming complete pricks on the net. But what changes basically good people into jerks? Is it just the anonymity? Im sure thats part of it, but i dont think that is all. Is it the ability to step out of yourself and be someone else? Or maybe the chance to be your real self without any consequences? Regardless, why cant we all just be ourselvs"
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
Comments
Duh! Anonimity.
Why do people behave? Why are they good to each other? They might need others at some point in the future.
On internet, you will never meet those people again. So who cares how you behave.
Hermits, rogues, renegades all tend to be "rude". They don't need others. The closer you are tied to someone, the more thoughtful you'll be. Excluding all the puberty thing, this is best demonstrated in families. Even puberty and the rebellion phase demonstrates that, where the need to move away causes lack of consideration.
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
Read again, i submitted accidentally.
I think it was an honest answer,
to an "overly" drawn out question.
Read again, i submitted accidentally.
Ok, so maybe it was foolish to ask. Your response was what I feared, but I guess some part of me just hoped there was more to it than that. It really doesnt bode well for the web as a means of communication if we arent capable of better behavior....:(
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
To "more to human dynamic"... It's only my opinion, it could be scientifically wrong or factually incorrect.
Each person has a character. It's the result of genes, growing up, past experiences, and more. Individual's character doesn't change. No matter how much you try, just look around the people you know. Each has characteristic behavioral traits which will never change.
But since the range of these differences between individuals is so large, human societies found ways to adapt to them. When dealing with people you develop a threshold for tolerance. This threshold is once again based on character, but also implied by social relations.
Few will go after figures of authority. And yet, they'll assume a completely different stance at home, for example be abusive of family members. Authority is defined by society itself. It often deals with power. People with power can enforce their right upon others. It doesn't matter which or how, but the relation is defined.
Same "authority" emerges in every group. Some people are respected, others despised. The respected ones silently gain authority over others, even when they can't enforce it. And it is natural for people to behave with caution towards such people, since it's in their interest.
In case of internet, there is no such structure. At that point you get to deal with raw character. There is no society to establish rules, and as such everyone is free to behave as they like. Authority also has different effects on people. Some will conform by default, others will rebel. This can make contrast between online behaviour and public behaviour very stark.
But in the end, everyone will behave acording to their characteristic traits, perhaps in a completely unfiltered form.
Humans aren't really kind or friendly. They are still governed by primal instincts. Society does mask most of them, but they are there, and they will show at every opportunity. This doesn't imply everyone is evil, many are benevolent, the proverbial sheep, but each individual's character will always prevail, in every action.
Internet just seems to do that very effectively.
And no, it's not that bad. Just don't spend all time reading game boards. You need to keep in mind, these are most populated by pre-teens/teens which do have rebellious attitude toward life itself. That again, is natural part of human development.
Of course, some people are just idiots. Fortunately, they are in minority.
When I post on forums (these and others) I try and present myself and treat others in the same way I do with people in person. I'm not sure how well I succed, but I like think I do a good job at it :P
Just because it's a forum or a game, there is still a real person behind that name. People need to ask themselves if they'd say that to the person if they met them in person before they make a post. People who make posts such as "if I saw Helios on the street I'd punch him out" fall into this category
It really is that simple. And why are we in more trouble then you thought because of that? I think it's pretty obvious that if people could commit a crime and never get caught or pay for their actions, there would be a lot more crime. The anonymity of the internet, and the ensuing negativity proves that. The net hasn't developed the kind of personal accountability for your actions that the rest of society has written in to law to manage human nature. People in general are vastly unpredictable from one extreme to the next, and its only the lessons we've learned in cause and effect per individual that makes us refrain, but the internet circumnavigates typical cause and effect from our actions. We can always ignore/block whoever we want, change emails, usernames, nicknames, etc. and not suffer any consequence for our prior actions.
I think it takes a much deeper sense of morality to restrict yourself from improper actions when there is no consequence or benefit either way, except from within. And I hate to break your bubble, but I think society and the world has a very long way to go before a common morality comes naturally to everyone, especially without any external benefit in a world still very dependent on personal image and greed.
How's that for more thought? lol
- Zen
It really is that simple. And why are we in more trouble then you thought because of that? I think it's pretty obvious that if people could commit a crime and never get caught or pay for their actions, there would be a lot more crime. The anonymity of the internet, and the ensuing negativity proves that. The net hasn't developed the kind of personal accountability for your actions that the rest of society has written in to law to manage human nature.
It's also part of animal societies. All semi-evolved (not bacteria colonies) creatures establish hierarchy. Wolf packs have an alpha male and strict hierarchy. But they rely on entire pack to work together to survive. A single wolf can't survive alone, so it needs to starve, or conform.
Acountability is also a matter of scale. Nobody is anonymous on internet. You're sending your IP all over the place, and your ISP has your name and address. But that's impersonal, so there's no consequences. And even if your name is tied to your actions, it doesn't affect many, since there's still a virtual barrier.
Internet rage is essentially the same as road rage. Just in that case, your car gives you the anonimity required to unloash the worst. Those cases were studied and scientifically confirmed.
Why?
As soon as we turn off our computers, this all goes away. There is nothing that exists here that we cannot do without, so therefore, there is nothing here that is worth saving or sustaining.
Look at SWG, and how disposable all of this meaning we have built up really matters? So then, if we can just turn off the computers and have it all go away for whatever reason we so choose, we justify to ourselves that there is really no harm--genuine harm--that can come about when we do this "virtual harm."
The boards are just all recreation and sport, when you get right down to it. It is recreation about recreation, which makes it even easier to trivialize. Since it is so much a trivial concern here, we act in a trivial sense toward eachother. After all, everyone here can just turn the thing off (or at least I hope we can), for whatever reason suits our fancy, and there is nothing any one of us can do about it.
Unlike Rekrul, I don't buy all this sociobiological reasoning. I'm not saying that he is not true, but rather, that what he is saying is becoming true in our modern condition. Our experience is a mediated experience, and the product of human artiface, not a genuine experience beyond the manipulation of human fabrication.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
It really is that simple. And why are we in more trouble then you thought because of that? I think it's pretty obvious that if people could commit a crime and never get caught or pay for their actions, there would be a lot more crime. The anonymity of the internet, and the ensuing negativity proves that. The net hasn't developed the kind of personal accountability for your actions that the rest of society has written in to law to manage human nature.
It's also part of animal societies. All semi-evolved (not bacteria colonies) creatures establish hierarchy. Wolf packs have an alpha male and strict hierarchy. But they rely on entire pack to work together to survive. A single wolf can't survive alone, so it needs to starve, or conform.
Acountability is also a matter of scale. Nobody is anonymous on internet. You're sending your IP all over the place, and your ISP has your name and address. But that's impersonal, so there's no consequences. And even if your name is tied to your actions, it doesn't affect many, since there's still a virtual barrier.
Internet rage is essentially the same as road rage. Just in that case, your car gives you the anonimity required to unloash the worst. Those cases were studied and scientifically confirmed.
Yep, I agree it's certainly not limited to human nature, but it's all the same idea. If the wolf learned it didn't have to conform to survive, most of them would probably go it alone. Each of us are forever bound by our own perception, that differs from everyone else in some way no matter how similar we might be. Communication and understanding between our differing perceptions requires work and patience, of which is not required if you can survive alone. Very few of us can survive completely alone in the real world, but there is no consequence if we isolate one of our 'nicknames' on the internet, to the limit that you mention the law can still go after our IP address if we commit a real world crime. Internet/road rage is not yet a crime though.
MMORPGs and the internet in general has always been an interesting experiment in psychology, but there's no sugar-coating our primal nature here. This is the reality of where human nature stands mentally, while we continue to coat our external appearance with culture and laws to make it appear as if we've evolved so much. It would be great if the world eventually reached some kind of collective understanding of right and wrong based on the simple morality of it rather then the consequence of either, but I think that would require a lot less focus on retaining personal identity and possessions then people are ready for.
Just food for more thought, what if the world discovered one day that there was no reward for being good? No heaven for following a religion properly? No higher diety to see all our actions and judge us before or after we die? No progress or personal gain to anything we do? No identity for us to prove to others as better or worse then anyone else? It's all various things I see that society has subconsciously created to manage our chaotic nature and develop a sense of ideals, but what remains if all that ceases to exist or is disproven one day? Will society be in the same boat as the chaotic internet without accountability or will there be nothing left to argue or fight over and we'll finally evolve?
There would still be wisdom, I'd think. Wisdom doesn't have anything to do with rewards from God, or tangible gain, or honors from others, or phylogenetic characteristics. You could have bad genes, you can lose your possessions, be condemned by God, and be abandoned by your peers, but wisdom is the one thing that nobody can take away, and nothing can destroy.
If we have wisdom, then I think justice is possible. The best thing about wisdom is that we don't have to "evolve" to gain it. It would be quite pointless to depend on "evolution" to solve our problems. After all, no matter how much a leopard wants to evolve its spots away, he cannot do it. Even if the leopard thinks it would be to its advantage, then there is still no reason to think that the leopard is correct.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
There would still be wisdom, I'd think. Wisdom doesn't have anything to do with rewards from God, or tangible gain, or honors from others, or phylogenetic characteristics. You can lose your possessions, be condemned by God, and be abandoned by your peers, but wisdom is the one thing that nobody can take away, and nothing can destroy.
If we have wisdom, then I think justice is possible. The best thing about wisdom is that we don't have to "evolve" to gain it. It would be quite pointless to depend on "evolution" to solve our problems. After all, no matter how much a leopard wants to evolve its spots away, he cannot do it. Even if the leopard thinks it would be to its advantage, then there is still no reason to think that the leopard is correct.
I think if everyone had and/or used wisdom more often, that would be a great evolution for society in itself. You are just using the term evolution in a different way then I am. I'm not talking about physical evolution. After all, there is no physical existence on the net. Only our psychological self, and that is the side of people we're talking about here.
Real, punch you in the nose, ACCOUNTABILITY. If you can't get physically hurt, most people aren't afraid. Being banned or suspended from forums doesn't phase people either. I hate to sound barbaric but most people that talk crap to other people on the net are cowards. I am not exactly proud of this story but when I was a young pup (early 20's) I was involved in a sports website forum. I loved to talk about fantasy football and such. There was one individual who seemed to purposely anger most of the other posters on a regular basis. Sine this was a local internet site (Chicagoland area) I actually offered to meet and spar with this jagbag. He obviously refused but kept talking crap. I left the site. My point is that people who have never been in a bad situation have very little respect for the possibility of bad things happening to them when they are in a very safe environment i.e. the internet. If your RL address was posted at the end of everything you posted, alot of people who talk crap would stop. Those who didn't might be surprised who finds them and puts a boot up their ass (or worse). BTW, I don't condone violent behavior in reaction to words but, at the same time, I have let people I know take a punch in the nose at the local pub when they were being a-holes. Of course I stepped in a stopped the fight but not before they had a little of their own blood trickling down their nose.
"Hurray, finally a game where I can fulfill my lifelong dream of taking emotionally dead women and finding the most financially viable means to exploit their bodies with the ultimate goal of making them Hugh Hefner's personal furniture."
This all makes very good reading but I have to disagree about the "primal" arguments. In spite of what Hollyweird tries to display as "primitive" as well as modern man's need to feel superior to his/her ancestors. Primal societies were very cooperative with each other, they had to be to survive. They were also a damn site smarter than people often give them credit for, I'd really like to see how many modern people, given no education, no tools, no language and dumped in a hostile environment would develop fire, the wheel, language, etc. Most modern people can't even survive a few days in the woods.
I think the real problem is both social and upbringing, when there is a problem. Some people do it just for the sheer thrill, they want to be challenged, they want to argue, they want to fight because it gives them a rush of adrenaline. To some it is another type of game to play, one that involves the mind and wits. Others do it just to be mean spirited, some because that is the way they always are, others because they feel safe, shielded by the internet from physical retaliation.
I've had friends who loved to argue, one in particular would continue to argue even when he was proven wrong, I think his ultimate goal in life is to meet with God and Satan and argue with both of them at the same time. I love the guy like a brother but I swear sometimes I just want to smash his head through the wall.
I've also known my share of bullies, from both sides friends and foes, I'm quite certian everybody knows there own so I don't have to go into details on that subject, but as a side note there is also the culture of the rebel that you have to look at. Some are true rebels but most are posers looking for acceptance by peer groups via inflammatory comments and/or actions.
The last are perhaps the creepiest and most disturbing, they're the type of people who generally act kind and even a bit subservient in real life but harbor a secret ill will toward everyone else believing they are superior to all. You can pretty much toss all the wife beaters, child abusers, puppy kickers, and general creeps into that little chamber pot of horrors, or what I call the shallow end of the gene pool.
The real faults lie with the one place many try to avoid, the parents. You either raise your kids to have some standards of honor and decency or you don't. One of the things I really hate with modern society is it's need to pin the blame on everything from movies & cartoons to video games & music when someone is a jerk (ranging from minor to major and epic). It's a lack of discipline that breeds a lack of respect. Although I'm not one to advocate over harsh treatment of children people have taken this "we don't hit our kids" way way too far. I got my butt handed to me many a time when I was a kid, and sometimes I deserved it. Some parents should take a lesson from a particular episode of Futurama where Bender says "Have you ever tried just sitting down with your children, turning off the TV and hitting them?"
µV
Actually, it seems to me that everybody from the gaming industry, the entertainment industry, the medical industry, the paper editorials, music, religion, politics, and the schools, do not avoid blaming parenting for whatever sort of problem exists in morals and habits. Whether you are on the left or the right, parenting is an equal opportunity punching bag for everything that goes wrong in terms of habits and morals, going back as far as Plato.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
To "more to human dynamic"... It's only my opinion, it could be scientifically wrong or factually incorrect.
Each person has a character. It's the result of genes, growing up, past experiences, and more. Individual's character doesn't change. No matter how much you try, just look around the people you know. Each has characteristic behavioral traits which will never change.
But since the range of these differences between individuals is so large, human societies found ways to adapt to them. When dealing with people you develop a threshold for tolerance. This threshold is once again based on character, but also implied by social relations.
Few will go after figures of authority. And yet, they'll assume a completely different stance at home, for example be abusive of family members. Authority is defined by society itself. It often deals with power. People with power can enforce their right upon others. It doesn't matter which or how, but the relation is defined.
Same "authority" emerges in every group. Some people are respected, others despised. The respected ones silently gain authority over others, even when they can't enforce it. And it is natural for people to behave with caution towards such people, since it's in their interest.
In case of internet, there is no such structure. At that point you get to deal with raw character. There is no society to establish rules, and as such everyone is free to behave as they like. Authority also has different effects on people. Some will conform by default, others will rebel. This can make contrast between online behaviour and public behaviour very stark.
But in the end, everyone will behave acording to their characteristic traits, perhaps in a completely unfiltered form.
Humans aren't really kind or friendly. They are still governed by primal instincts. Society does mask most of them, but they are there, and they will show at every opportunity. This doesn't imply everyone is evil, many are benevolent, the proverbial sheep, but each individual's character will always prevail, in every action.
Internet just seems to do that very effectively.
And no, it's not that bad. Just don't spend all time reading game boards. You need to keep in mind, these are most populated by pre-teens/teens which do have rebellious attitude toward life itself. That again, is natural part of human development.
Of course, some people are just idiots. Fortunately, they are in minority.
This is more what i expected from you, lol.... not that that matters, but this makes sense. While I agree wit what u say, what is it (besides anonymity) that gets people to go outside their personality and behave so poorly?
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
It really is that simple. And why are we in more trouble then you thought because of that? I guess cause i said lol think it's pretty obvious that if people could commit a crime and never get caught or pay for their actions, there would be a lot more crime. The anonymity of the internet, and the ensuing negativity proves that. The net hasn't developed the kind of personal accountability for your actions that the rest of society has written in to law to manage human nature. People in general are vastly unpredictable from one extreme to the next, and its only the lessons we've learned in cause and effect per individual that makes us refrain, but the internet circumnavigates typical cause and effect from our actions. We can always ignore/block whoever we want, change emails, usernames, nicknames, etc. and not suffer any consequence for our prior actions.
I think it takes a much deeper sense of morality to restrict yourself from improper actions when there is no consequence or benefit either way, except from within. And I hate to break your bubble, but I think society and the world has a very long way to go before a common morality comes naturally to everyone, especially without any external benefit in a world still very dependent on personal image and greed.
How's that for more thought? lol
- Zen
You make excellent points, and maybe my outlook is just too idealistic. But it seems that at some point we achieve a state of community and at that point certain rules inherently apply. Look at these forums, there are certain people that when they post get more attention/respect than others. Its not stated as a rule, but it just happens. That would imply that there is some order (no matter how slight) to what we are doing. Therefore the other rules of society, theoretically, should start to come into play naturally.... Yet, they dont... Anyway, its not a big thing its just something ive been curious about for ahwile. Is it really just anonymity that make so "fee wheeling" wiht our comments? Maybe, so......
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
Actually, it seems to me that everybody from the gaming industry, the entertainment industry, the medical industry, the paper editorials, music, religion, politics, and the schools, do not avoid blaming parenting for whatever sort of problem exists in morals and habits. Whether you are on the left or the right, parenting is an equal opportunity punching bag for everything that goes wrong in terms of habits and morals, going back as far as Plato.
You can blame parents to a point, but at a certain age you are responsible for yourself. I am a Alcoholic, and I don't blame anyone but me for that. I cheated on my wife, again it was my fault.
Whatever that age may be, people know right from wrong. I would bet most people on these boards know right from wrong and wouldn't say a lot of things to my face they would say here.
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin