We all think of many potential responses to say to people in real life, and usually pick one that is called for depending on the current set of circumstances. On the Internet, the circumstances are different so we are more apt to choose a harsher response because, well, you can't see that I'm as big as an offensive lineman in College Football and my face is turning red, and I'm balling up my fists.
To compound the problem, you cannot interrupt people on forums, so a cycle of harsher than the last one responses begins. In real life you will cut off the conversation a lot quicker to avoid a possible physical confrontation, but on the web there is no chance of that occuring, so you doggedly defend your position and the harshness escalates out of control.
It is more a function of the communications medium than a psychological state change IMO.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
Originally posted by TimeViewer The real faults lie with the one place many try to avoid, the parents.
Actually, it seems to me that everybody from the gaming industry, the entertainment industry, the medical industry, the paper editorials, music, religion, politics, and the schools, do not avoid blaming parenting for whatever sort of problem exists in morals and habits. Whether you are on the left or the right, parenting is an equal opportunity punching bag for everything that goes wrong in terms of habits and morals, going back as far as Plato.
You can blame parents to a point, but at a certain age you are responsible for yourself. I am a Alcoholic, and I don't blame anyone but me for that. I cheated on my wife, again it was my fault.
Whatever that age may be, people know right from wrong. I would bet most people on these boards know right from wrong and wouldn't say a lot of things to my face they would say here.
Ahh... thank you for getting honest with things. Yes, in the end we are all responsible for our own behaviour. This gets to the heart of things, i believe, because behind the anonymity that we all presume we are still behind the keyboard typing out thing that either attack or support someone else. Is it really so much easier to attack because no one will know who we are? and if so, what does that say about us?
And I would guess that Dr Bob and Bill W. would say that we are responsible for what we put out into the world (virtual or not) and that the results will come back on us accordingly.....
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
Originally posted by jrscott We all think of many potential responses to say to people in real life, and usually pick one that is called for depending on the current set of circumstances. On the Internet, the circumstances are different so we are more apt to choose a harsher response because, well, you can't see that I'm as big as an offensive lineman in College Football and my face is turning red, and I'm balling up my fists.
To compound the problem, you cannot interrupt people on forums, so a cycle of harsher than the last one responses begins. In real life you will cut off the conversation a lot quicker to avoid a possible physical confrontation, but on the web there is no chance of that occuring, so you doggedly defend your position and the harshness escalates out of control.
It is more a function of the communications medium than a psychological state change IMO.
Of course, in the end you are right.... and maybe being a female my outlook is skewed but I neve once have thought about one of you guys being bigger than me and being able to incap me (lol...i couldnt resist) but rather when i have said something mean i have felt bad because there is another person on the other end whos feelings i may have hurt (either intentionally or not).... I know i will most likely never meet any of you but that doesnt mean that i doont want you to think well of me and to be happy ....
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
Originally posted by chlaos Is it really so much easier to attack because no one will know who we are? and if so, what does that say about us?
As physical creatures, we must always be cognizant of our potential actions and the potential actions of those around us. So, like it or not, we all consider attacks all the time, some of us are just quicker at dismissing them as inappropriate, and some of us are better at it. But make no mistake, considering an attack is natural and in and of itself not wrong.
It's much like an age old apparent Biblical contradiction. Jesus was purportedly without sin. Yet he was "tempted" numerous times. And he once said that thinking about committing the sin was no less sin than doing it. So this has left a lot of people wondering how he could be tempted, yet still be considered sinless.
The answer to this puzzle is that you can be "tempted", i.e. think about doing something, and as long as you do not make up your mind that you will do it if you can get away with it, you are not sinning. The minute you decide you will do it, you have sinned, whether you do it or not.
The people who attack on the Internet, who would not normally attack you in person are not behaving differently. I tell you that these people what would attack you on the Internet at the drop of a hat, would do the same in RL if they could get away with it. Maybe they aren't the people you think they are.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
Originally posted by TimeViewer The real faults lie with the one place many try to avoid, the parents.
Actually, it seems to me that everybody from the gaming industry, the entertainment industry, the medical industry, the paper editorials, music, religion, politics, and the schools, do not avoid blaming parenting for whatever sort of problem exists in morals and habits. Whether you are on the left or the right, parenting is an equal opportunity punching bag for everything that goes wrong in terms of habits and morals, going back as far as Plato.
Personally I've seen less examples of that and more of parents blaming it all on everything but themselves. Companies are forced to rate their product by content and churning out more and more bland, "non-offensive" dross or go the opposite route and jump completely off the deep end and offend everyone just to make a point.
Every time we see some nut job shooting up a school we hear the usual music/video game tie in as if a game or a song could actually control people and make them do something, anyone with that weak a will would just wind up a bleating sheep.
Some parents nowadays want less and less to do with raising their own children, these are the ones who try to blame everything else for their child's misdeeds. We hear less about those where the parents take a larger part in their child's life because they're far less likely to become sociopaths. Of course too much involvement can lead to it's own problems, it's a careful balance that has to be maintained, far more than I could go into in a simple post.
Some also try to lay it at the feet of socioeconomic issues but I've seen poor and rich alike act as either honorable or base, and from my experiences it's usually the parenting or lack of that's been the deciding factor.
Originally posted by chlaos Originally posted by jrscott We all think of many potential responses to say to people in real life, and usually pick one that is called for depending on the current set of circumstances. On the Internet, the circumstances are different so we are more apt to choose a harsher response because, well, you can't see that I'm as big as an offensive lineman in College Football and my face is turning red, and I'm balling up my fists.
To compound the problem, you cannot interrupt people on forums, so a cycle of harsher than the last one responses begins. In real life you will cut off the conversation a lot quicker to avoid a possible physical confrontation, but on the web there is no chance of that occuring, so you doggedly defend your position and the harshness escalates out of control.
It is more a function of the communications medium than a psychological state change IMO.
Of course, in the end you are right.... and maybe being a female my outlook is skewed but I neve once have thought about one of you guys being bigger than me and being able to incap me (lol...i couldnt resist) but rather when i have said something mean i have felt bad because there is another person on the other end whos feelings i may have hurt (either intentionally or not).... I know i will most likely never meet any of you but that doesnt mean that i doont want you to think well of me and to be happy .... That actually brings up one more perspective. Perhaps some of the more aggressive natured people are frustrated 320 lb musclemen who can't beat people up without going to jail, so they assert their bigness online?
I mean, personally I am used to almost everyone deferring to me in person. In a crowd, people will split apart to let me through. Nobody ever shows any frustration or ever confronts me. What makes it worse is that ever since age 21 I have either been the Golden Child of the company or in charge of it. So when I am on a forum and somebody confronts me, I am not used to that at all. Generally, I am a nice guy, but I admit to feeling frustrated and confused at times. A person with a more aggressive outlook in my situation could probably get very nasty here in the virtual world.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
Originally posted by chlaos Is it really so much easier to attack because no one will know who we are? and if so, what does that say about us?
As physical creatures, we must always be cognizant of our potential actions and the potential actions of those around us. So, like it or not, we all consider attacks all the time, some of us are just quicker at dismissing them as inappropriate, and some of us are better at it. But make no mistake, considering an attack is natural and in and of itself not wrong.
It's much like an age old apparent Biblical contradiction. Jesus was purportedly without sin. Yet he was "tempted" numerous times. And he once said that thinking about committing the sin was no less sin than doing it. So this has left a lot of people wondering how he could be tempted, yet still be considered sinless.
The answer to this puzzle is that you can be "tempted", i.e. think about doing something, and as long as you do not make up your mind that you will do it if you can get away with it, you are not sinning. The minute you decide you will do it, you have sinned, whether you do it or not.
The people who attack on the Internet, who would not normally attack you in person are not behaving differently. I tell you that these people what would attack you on the Internet at the drop of a hat, would do the same in RL if they could get away with it. Maybe they aren't the people you think they are.
or maybe they arent the people that They think they are... but i digress, ur analogy intrigues me, and the same thoughts have crossed my mind. But i find it hard to believe that we have sinned just as badly by considering doing something wrong than if we actually do it, but that may be the human in me getting confused...
Just cause something is natural doesnt mean that we can excuse it as acceptable, to squat down and pee may be the most natural thing in the world (for a female) but that doesnt mean its approprate in any situation...
The thought that comes to my mind now, is the one universal truth that I have found to be consistent throughout the worlds many different religions and philosophies. And that is the concept of the Golden Rule, or Karma, or What goes around comes around, or whatever manner your able to process the concept.... But basically whatever you put out into the world will come back to you in one form or another.....
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
Originally posted by jrscott Of course, in the end you are right.... and maybe being a female my outlook is skewed but I neve once have thought about one of you guys being bigger than me and being able to incap me (lol...i couldnt resist) but rather when i have said something mean i have felt bad because there is another person on the other end whos feelings i may have hurt (either intentionally or not).... I know i will most likely never meet any of you but that doesnt mean that i doont want you to think well of me and to be happy ....
That actually brings up one more perspective. Perhaps some of the more aggressive natured people are frustrated 320 lb musclemen who can't beat people up without going to jail, so they assert their bigness online?
I mean, personally I am used to almost everyone deferring to me in person. In a crowd, people will split apart to let me through. Nobody ever shows any frustration or ever confronts me. What makes it worse is that ever since age 21 I have either been the Golden Child of the company or in charge of it. So when I am on a forum and somebody confronts me, I am not used to that at all. Generally, I am a nice guy, but I admit to feeling frustrated and confused at times. A person with a more aggressive outlook in my situation could probably get very nasty here in the virtual world.
Om , my own life i experience much the same thing, though i imagine for different reasons (lol)...many guys tell me they feel intimidated by me and im pretty sweet (and not hard to lood at) so i don understand why....maybe its just my forcefull personality, i dont know.... I know im the most loyal person ive ever met, and once your one of my "people' i will never leave you, but then again, if crossed im a real bithch....LOL
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
Originally posted by TimeViewer Every time we see some nut job shooting up a school we hear the usual music/video game tie in as if a game or a song could actually control people and make them do something, anyone with that weak a will would just wind up a bleating sheep.
Let's not hold music / video games blameless either. First off, it IS the parent's responsibility to raise their kids to be non-bleating sheep and to teach them that the behavior that occurs in a video game is not meant to be done in the real world. Nor is the behavior described by some music.
What's most disturbing to me is that parents allow their children to purchase some of the trash they purchase. Garbage in, garbage out. What you seem to fail to realize is that a child's mind and neural pathways are still developing and are less capable of distinguishing between reality and virtual. Exposure to some of the actions described in games, TV, and music can and will be used to establish the neural pathways these people will have to live with for the rest of their lives. It has nothing to do with willpower. It has to do with Biochemical patterns etched into your brain forever.
It's like when you buy a new car, you are told not to drive a long trip until 1000 miles or more are on the odometer. Why? Because you will burn in a pattern of expected speed and piston stroke depth on the engine and it will expect to do 60-70 and not perform at other speeds. Is it unreasonable to consider the human brain works like that also?
This is where the parents should step in, and fail to do so because they say "they are too busy". You should know what you children are watching, playing, and listening to and explain to them why certain things depicted in the media are wrong, so they do not begin to accept them as right or acceptable.
So Beatnik, you are right in pinning the responsibility on the parents, as they can ultimately take garbage media and turn it into a lesson of how to not do things, and they fail to do so. Bad music, TV, and games DO have a powerful negative influence, but only if parents allow them to.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
Originally posted by chlaosThe thought that comes to my mind now, is the one universal truth that I have found to be consistent throughout the worlds many different religions and philosophies. And that is the concept of the Golden Rule, or Karma, or What goes around comes around, or whatever manner your able to process the concept.... But basically whatever you put out into the world will come back to you in one form or another.....
If we all lived by that, we would all get along a lot better. There are only three philosophies I can think of that do not follow this rule and I won't mention them publicly, but I will say the adherents of a certain two do seem to fight each other a lot.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
Om , my own life i experience much the same thing, though i imagine for different reasons (lol)...many guys tell me they feel intimidated by me and im pretty sweet (and not hard to lood at) so i don understand why....maybe its just my forcefull personality, i dont know.... I know im the most loyal person ive ever met, and once your one of my "people' i will never leave you, but then again, if crossed im a real bithch....LOL
A strong-willed, good looking woman is VERY intimidating IMO. When I was "a hunter" way back when, I would so want that pretty girl to like me. I was so afraid of her saying no. It scared me off sometimes. Stupid, but reality is.
I found out late in my high school "career" that just about every girl in school liked me but was intimidated by my size, my brains, and the fact I had a girlfriend once from a prestigious private school. So I guess it can work both ways. Heck of a time for a horny high school boy to find out he was wanted. And hindsight being 20/20, the signs were there. Like the captain of the cheerleading team asking me to join them because I was big and strong. Holding cute chicks up by their rear ends. Sheesh, what a moron.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
Originally posted by TimeViewer Every time we see some nut job shooting up a school we hear the usual music/video game tie in as if a game or a song could actually control people and make them do something, anyone with that weak a will would just wind up a bleating sheep.
Let's not hold music / video games blameless either. First off, it IS the parent's responsibility to raise their kids to be non-bleating sheep and to teach them that the behavior that occurs in a video game is not meant to be done in the real world. Nor is the behavior described by some music.
What's most disturbing to me is that parents allow their children to purchase some of the trash they purchase. Garbage in, garbage out. What you seem to fail to realize is that a child's mind and neural pathways are still developing and are less capable of distinguishing between reality and virtual. Exposure to some of the actions described in games, TV, and music can and will be used to establish the neural pathways these people will have to live with for the rest of their lives. It has nothing to do with willpower. It has to do with Biochemical patterns etched into your brain forever.
It's like when you buy a new car, you are told not to drive a long trip until 1000 miles or more are on the odometer. Why? Because you will burn in a pattern of expected speed and piston stroke depth on the engine and it will expect to do 60-70 and not perform at other speeds. Is it unreasonable to consider the human brain works like that also?
This is where the parents should step in, and fail to do so because they say "they are too busy". You should know what you children are watching, playing, and listening to and explain to them why certain things depicted in the media are wrong, so they do not begin to accept them as right or acceptable.
So Beatnik, you are right in pinning the responsibility on the parents, as they can ultimately take garbage media and turn it into a lesson of how to not do things, and they fail to do so. Bad music, TV, and games DO have a powerful negative influence, but only if parents allow them to.
Sorry but I really have to disagree with you about biochemical patterns there, I have one beautiful example for what I say. My best friends lived above us for most of their daughters life, she spent nearly everyday downstairs with my wife and I. All of us have been into the punk scene since the late 70's through the 80's and into today. We've had our share of violent art and music as well as my gaming and anime around her for all of her 14 years. She has no trouble differentiating between fantasy and reality because of two things. I've always explained things to her to the best of her understanding for her various ages and I've never lied to her, not even about Santa etc.
Her parents are also very much a part of her life, they just like me to explain the more embarrassing aspects of real life to her since it's easier for a kid to hear the truth from a trusted adult than their own parents. We've never overdone it on what she can or can't see. Obviously we're not going to show her hardcore porn or the Faces of Death series but she's grown up with violent games, anime, and music and yet the only time she has displayed violence herself is when her and her girlfriends chased off a bully who was picking on some poor weak younger kid. They didn't even have to hit him, the guy was so terrified at the prospect of being beat up by a group of little girls he ran off with his tail between his legs.
There have been other people in history who tried to claim it was all chemistry, or genealogy, not that I'm comparing you to them at all I just want you to look at how wrong those people were.
I wont say that music and games can't contribute since some push the limits, some for art, some for controversy, some for money. The thing is if there is something in them that speaks to the violence inside that person it is because that violence was already preexisting and waiting for a trigger. Sometimes that trigger is in a song, or a game, or that jerk who cut in front of you on the expressway while they were yapping on a cell phone and you wish there was some way you could hit an ejection seat in their car and send them flying... ahh you get my point .
Violent and antisocial behavior goes far deeper than a few songs or a game, many of them are shared problems, feelings of rejection, self despite, a need to be noticed. Shared feelings like this can be found in any media. Look at the Blues, and the later music that inspired Rock & Roll etc. All inspired by depression. People pushed to the edge will always be able to find something that speaks to them in music, and to their need for control in games but you have to look a lot further than "the straw that broke the camel's back" for those reasons.
Originally posted by TimeViewer Every time we see some nut job shooting up a school we hear the usual music/video game tie in as if a game or a song could actually control people and make them do something, anyone with that weak a will would just wind up a bleating sheep.
Let's not hold music / video games blameless either. First off, it IS the parent's responsibility to raise their kids to be non-bleating sheep and to teach them that the behavior that occurs in a video game is not meant to be done in the real world. Nor is the behavior described by some music.
What's most disturbing to me is that parents allow their children to purchase some of the trash they purchase. Garbage in, garbage out. What you seem to fail to realize is that a child's mind and neural pathways are still developing and are less capable of distinguishing between reality and virtual. Exposure to some of the actions described in games, TV, and music can and will be used to establish the neural pathways these people will have to live with for the rest of their lives. It has nothing to do with willpower. It has to do with Biochemical patterns etched into your brain forever.
It's like when you buy a new car, you are told not to drive a long trip until 1000 miles or more are on the odometer. Why? Because you will burn in a pattern of expected speed and piston stroke depth on the engine and it will expect to do 60-70 and not perform at other speeds. Is it unreasonable to consider the human brain works like that also?
This is where the parents should step in, and fail to do so because they say "they are too busy". You should know what you children are watching, playing, and listening to and explain to them why certain things depicted in the media are wrong, so they do not begin to accept them as right or acceptable.
So Beatnik, you are right in pinning the responsibility on the parents, as they can ultimately take garbage media and turn it into a lesson of how to not do things, and they fail to do so. Bad music, TV, and games DO have a powerful negative influence, but only if parents allow them to.
If someone is "right" here, then it certainly wasn't me. I never said that "I" believed that the parents deserved to be knocked around by every professional, bureaucratic, political, philisophical, and commercial institution today. It is just that they are, because they think that just because they put the trash out there, that it is up to others to mitigate the effects.
I mean, we could lock the kids in a closet, and home school them, and never have them watch a TV, or play games. Because even if we let them out, have friends, and have a bit of autonomy, then they'll just go over to someone's house and undo everything parents try and do.
Yeah, you can take the strict line, but like the line says, "how can you keep them down on the farm after they see Paris?" Moreover, even if you take the hardline, they'll just rebel, and go off the deep end, like many of the friends I knew who had strict upbringings.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I was at this "huge"(for this lil place anyway, 30+ people) LAN party, where there were about 10 adults, the rest were kids in the age of 13 to 18'ish.
Some of the kids played like they were on Internet, and were tossing insults and grief around while playing. Ofcourse, that simmered down when after one of them called my mom something bad, and told me to go do something bad with my dad, AFTER I had given him a pounding in BF 2..several times... Well, anyway, it simmered down, when he found me standing behind him, tapping his shoulder and asking him to repeat that.
The internet is a lawless place, where there's rarily any real consequenses for your actions, thus those who couldnt care less for anyone but themselves, take the oportunity to do whatever they please.
This LAN party however, put consequenses back into the picture, and after the consequenses were played out, everyone became model citizens
Originally posted by Beatnik59 Originally posted by jrscott Originally posted by TimeViewer Every time we see some nut job shooting up a school we hear the usual music/video game tie in as if a game or a song could actually control people and make them do something, anyone with that weak a will would just wind up a bleating sheep.
Let's not hold music / video games blameless either. First off, it IS the parent's responsibility to raise their kids to be non-bleating sheep and to teach them that the behavior that occurs in a video game is not meant to be done in the real world. Nor is the behavior described by some music.
What's most disturbing to me is that parents allow their children to purchase some of the trash they purchase. Garbage in, garbage out. What you seem to fail to realize is that a child's mind and neural pathways are still developing and are less capable of distinguishing between reality and virtual. Exposure to some of the actions described in games, TV, and music can and will be used to establish the neural pathways these people will have to live with for the rest of their lives. It has nothing to do with willpower. It has to do with Biochemical patterns etched into your brain forever.
It's like when you buy a new car, you are told not to drive a long trip until 1000 miles or more are on the odometer. Why? Because you will burn in a pattern of expected speed and piston stroke depth on the engine and it will expect to do 60-70 and not perform at other speeds. Is it unreasonable to consider the human brain works like that also?
This is where the parents should step in, and fail to do so because they say "they are too busy". You should know what you children are watching, playing, and listening to and explain to them why certain things depicted in the media are wrong, so they do not begin to accept them as right or acceptable.
So Beatnik, you are right in pinning the responsibility on the parents, as they can ultimately take garbage media and turn it into a lesson of how to not do things, and they fail to do so. Bad music, TV, and games DO have a powerful negative influence, but only if parents allow them to.
If someone is "right" here, then it certainly wasn't me. I never said that "I" believed that the parents deserved to be knocked around by every professional, bureaucratic, political, philisophical, and commercial institution today. It is just that they are, because they think that just because they put the trash out there, that it is up to others to mitigate the effects.
I mean, we could lock the kids in a closet, and home school them, and never have them watch a TV, or play games. Because even if we let them out, have friends, and have a bit of autonomy, then they'll just go over to someone's house and undo everything parents try and do.
Yeah, you can take the strict line, but like the line says, "how can you keep them down on the farm after they see Paris?" Moreover, even if you take the hardline, they'll just rebel, and go off the deep end, like many of the friends I knew who had strict upbringings.
I was talking about educating kids, knowing what they watched and explaining right and wrong, especially when wrong was being presented as right. Just making sure children understand which "column" to file things under is very important. Just spending time with them explaining things...just saying "That's wrong", or that's unrealistic. Making sure they understand things. There is no discipline involved in what I am saying, nor is there any locking away of children. EDUCATION is key. Too bad most parents think it is somebody else's job.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
Originally posted by TimeViewer Originally posted by jrscott Originally posted by TimeViewer Every time we see some nut job shooting up a school we hear the usual music/video game tie in as if a game or a song could actually control people and make them do something, anyone with that weak a will would just wind up a bleating sheep.
Let's not hold music / video games blameless either. First off, it IS the parent's responsibility to raise their kids to be non-bleating sheep and to teach them that the behavior that occurs in a video game is not meant to be done in the real world. Nor is the behavior described by some music.
What's most disturbing to me is that parents allow their children to purchase some of the trash they purchase. Garbage in, garbage out. What you seem to fail to realize is that a child's mind and neural pathways are still developing and are less capable of distinguishing between reality and virtual. Exposure to some of the actions described in games, TV, and music can and will be used to establish the neural pathways these people will have to live with for the rest of their lives. It has nothing to do with willpower. It has to do with Biochemical patterns etched into your brain forever.
It's like when you buy a new car, you are told not to drive a long trip until 1000 miles or more are on the odometer. Why? Because you will burn in a pattern of expected speed and piston stroke depth on the engine and it will expect to do 60-70 and not perform at other speeds. Is it unreasonable to consider the human brain works like that also?
This is where the parents should step in, and fail to do so because they say "they are too busy". You should know what you children are watching, playing, and listening to and explain to them why certain things depicted in the media are wrong, so they do not begin to accept them as right or acceptable.
So Beatnik, you are right in pinning the responsibility on the parents, as they can ultimately take garbage media and turn it into a lesson of how to not do things, and they fail to do so. Bad music, TV, and games DO have a powerful negative influence, but only if parents allow them to.
Sorry but I really have to disagree with you about biochemical patterns there, I have one beautiful example for what I say. My best friends lived above us for most of their daughters life, she spent nearly everyday downstairs with my wife and I. All of us have been into the punk scene since the late 70's through the 80's and into today. We've had our share of violent art and music as well as my gaming and anime around her for all of her 14 years. She has no trouble differentiating between fantasy and reality because of two things. I've always explained things to her to the best of her understanding for her various ages and I've never lied to her, not even about Santa etc.
Her parents are also very much a part of her life, they just like me to explain the more embarrassing aspects of real life to her since it's easier for a kid to hear the truth from a trusted adult than their own parents. We've never overdone it on what she can or can't see. Obviously we're not going to show her hardcore porn or the Faces of Death series but she's grown up with violent games, anime, and music and yet the only time she has displayed violence herself is when her and her girlfriends chased off a bully who was picking on some poor weak younger kid. They didn't even have to hit him, the guy was so terrified at the prospect of being beat up by a group of little girls he ran off with his tail between his legs.
There have been other people in history who tried to claim it was all chemistry, or genealogy, not that I'm comparing you to them at all I just want you to look at how wrong those people were.
I wont say that music and games can't contribute since some push the limits, some for art, some for controversy, some for money. The thing is if there is something in them that speaks to the violence inside that person it is because that violence was already preexisting and waiting for a trigger. Sometimes that trigger is in a song, or a game, or that jerk who cut in front of you on the expressway while they were yapping on a cell phone and you wish there was some way you could hit an ejection seat in their car and send them flying... ahh you get my point .
Violent and antisocial behavior goes far deeper than a few songs or a game, many of them are shared problems, feelings of rejection, self despite, a need to be noticed. Shared feelings like this can be found in any media. Look at the Blues, and the later music that inspired Rock & Roll etc. All inspired by depression. People pushed to the edge will always be able to find something that speaks to them in music, and to their need for control in games but you have to look a lot further than "the straw that broke the camel's back" for those reasons.
Now, read my quote in red, and your quote in red and tell me how we are not saying the same thing? You stepped in and explained things to her. That is what most parents do not do. And when they don't, they allow the developing mind to learn incorrectly. You did a GREAT JOB and a great service to that young woman by explaining things when they needed explaining. Few adults do that in today's world because of increased demands on their time.
I don't disagree with what you said in your post one bit. I just think you missed my point. Parents (or or adults) need to explain things children see early and often, especially when they are of questionable moral nature. And in a lot of cases, they do not. And when they do not, the games, TV, and music can trigger or legitimize bad behavior.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
Originally posted by chlaos The thought that comes to my mind now, is the one universal truth that I have found to be consistent throughout the worlds many different religions and philosophies. And that is the concept of the Golden Rule, or Karma, or What goes around comes around, or whatever manner your able to process the concept.... But basically whatever you put out into the world will come back to you in one form or another.....
If we all lived by that, we would all get along a lot better. There are only three philosophies I can think of that do not follow this rule and I won't mention them publicly, but I will say the adherents of a certain two do seem to fight each other a lot.
I didnt mean to implly that they all followed the rule, but rather it was a key tenet in their teachings and yes both the torah and the koran contain these teachings....
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
Originally posted by wolfmann The internet is a lawless place, where there's rarily any real consequenses for your actions, thus those who couldnt care less for anyone but themselves, take the oportunity to do whatever they please
This is the main culprit in my opinion, and may be as much a product the times we live in as anything. The Net really just seems to be a gross exageration of the way people really are (i know this is a genarlizaton) and certainly I for one have noticed an overall lack of concern for ones fellow man in all aspects of life....
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
Originally posted by chlaos Originally posted by jrscott Originally posted by chlaos The thought that comes to my mind now, is the one universal truth that I have found to be consistent throughout the worlds many different religions and philosophies. And that is the concept of the Golden Rule, or Karma, or What goes around comes around, or whatever manner your able to process the concept.... But basically whatever you put out into the world will come back to you in one form or another.....
If we all lived by that, we would all get along a lot better. There are only three philosophies I can think of that do not follow this rule and I won't mention them publicly, but I will say the adherents of a certain two do seem to fight each other a lot.
I didnt mean to implly that they all followed the rule, but rather it was a key tenet in their teachings and yes both the torah and the koran contain these teachings.... So do the western cultures:
"You reap what you sow."
It's common sense.
But here arises the problem. Average individual is acquainted with around 150 people. There are 6+ billion people. Simply put, no matter how you put it, you'll be surrounded with strangers. And sense of karma is mostly applicable to immediate effects, at least those noticable.
How can you define "doing good" when there are over 6 billion people you will never meet. How do you know that your actions don't hurt them.
Let's say you stop wasting food, since there's so many hungry people out there. Others follow your lead, and soon the food consumption falls. Food company starts laying off people, leaving 15000 unemployed. Due to decreased turnaround, they suspend their welfare programs, cancelling vitamine A vaccinations in third-world countries. As a result, 280,000 children go blind. Since that country relies on mining as chief export, the price of coal exports rises by 15%. This, in turn, raises the price of electricity and causes inflation. Your entire nations GPB falls by 7%.
So, by doing good, you affected your entire nation, hurting hundreds of millions of people in the process. Why? Because you wanted to do something good by not wasting food.
Yes, it's a somewhat contrived example. But unfortunately, it's based on chaos theory, which has been proven to be correct. Human society is no longer a simple linear organization. It also doesn't follow any other rules. Every, even the slightest event can and will cause ripples through entire world. And there are 6 billion such events happening every second of every day.
There is no universal good. Perhaps the best way to put it, is: "What you do not wish upon yourself, extend not to others." This leaves a lot open to different ways of life. After all, you are free to do what you want, just don't be hypocritical about it.
Anonymity, thye don't have to fear any reprisal so therefore they act like mindless jackals. Find some way to make them accountable and it will make them think twice (after the 4th or 5th penalty applied).
On a similar subject while i have no issue with an outburst of frustration of Vent or TS people who actually have to type out expletives in chat also have the time to think about what they are saying and temper the language, its typed comments like this that are just another sign of the attitude that things said and done in game have no effect on RL.
Its almost at the point where i'd be in favor of a gameing ID where to play any game people must have an age verification ID , that is unique and has to be provided when subscribing to a game, and where by a ban for repeated offences in one game can also result in bans in other games (not by the same producer).
Of course if this were to happen there would need to be a clearly laid out procedure of what various offiences and repeat offences mean in terms of disciplinary action which would need to be agreed to and followed by all producers, this would be needed since the way ingame offences are punished is inconsistant at best.
Originally posted by chlaos Originally posted by wolfmann The internet is a lawless place, where there's rarily any real consequenses for your actions, thus those who couldnt care less for anyone but themselves, take the oportunity to do whatever they please
This is the main culprit in my opinion, and may be as much a product the times we live in as anything. The Net really just seems to be a gross exageration of the way people really are (i know this is a genarlizaton) and certainly I for one have noticed an overall lack of concern for ones fellow man in all aspects of life.... Enter, the individualistic society.
(a): I need help. Nobody helps me. So I won't help anyone. (b): I need help. Maybe (a) will help me. No, he doesn't help anyone. I won't help anyone either. (c): I need help. Maybe (a) or (b) will help me. No, they don't help anyone. ... (z): I need help. Nobody helps anyone, so I'll help myself.
This behaviour can easily be modeled in mathematical terms. Each person has an 0.5 chance of helping others. But, depending on outside factors, this value is slightly biased between 0.4999999 and 0.50000001. But since there's so many people in society, this quickly adds up. If each person is confronted with 1 such decision daily, in a society of several million this bias will quickly rise to 0.6, 0.7 or even highers, causing entire society to become either helpful or unhelpful.
The rate of this change is directly proportional to feedback. When training neural nets, you establish an artifical feedback loop, that feeds the data you define as "right" and "wrong". After putting the net through 1 million or so cycles, the neural net has "learned" to distinguish these on its own. Neural nets are modeled after the way human brain works, so it's a very good aproximation of human behaviour.
But in real life you cannot make 1 million cycles. In many cases, you will only have several cycles upon which you must base what is right and wrong. This allows for random deviations to propagate.
In addition, the feedback in real world is not immediate, if it exists at all. For every action you perform, it may take hours, days, or even years, to get some feedback on how you did. And that is only if you can correlate the feedback you received with your original action.
This results in a very unreliable and mostly undeterministic perception of ones action. This is why people trust instincts more than facts. Bringing us back to square one, that the human is essentially a glorified beast, driven by the most basic of their instincts.
Originally posted by TimeViewer This all makes very good reading but I have to disagree about the "primal" arguments. In spite of what Hollyweird tries to display as "primitive" as well as modern man's need to feel superior to his/her ancestors. Primal societies were very cooperative with each other, they had to be to survive. They were also a damn site smarter than people often give them credit for, I'd really like to see how many modern people, given no education, no tools, no language and dumped in a hostile environment would develop fire, the wheel, language, etc. Most modern people can't even survive a few days in the woods. What I meant by primal was really more or less our basic instinctive behavior. I didnt mean it to be negative thing in anyway, and you are right about the woods. I couldnt manage a weekent very well. I mean what would we do, just sit around in a camp and talk? And that would be fun? LOL...couldnt resist. Excellent points though... I think the real problem is both social and upbringing, when there is a problem. Some people do it just for the sheer thrill, they want to be challenged, they want to argue, they want to fight because it gives them a rush of adrenaline. To some it is another type of game to play, one that involves the mind and wits. Others do it just to be mean spirited, some because that is the way they always are, others because they feel safe, shielded by the internet from physical retaliation. This I understand, I love to argue and debate. Sometimes I even argue against the side that I believe in, simply to have the debate. But sometimes playing the devil's advocate actually helps me to understand an issue better and serves a legitimate purpose, at least for me But its not the arguing that confuses me, its the apparent need for nastiness in doing so. I've had friends who loved to argue, one in particular would continue to argue even when he was proven wrong, I think his ultimate goal in life is to meet with God and Satan and argue with both of them at the same time. I love the guy like a brother but I swear sometimes I just want to smash his head through the wall. This sounds like a blast, sign me up ..... I've also known my share of bullies, from both sides friends and foes, I'm quite certian everybody knows there own so I don't have to go into details on that subject, but as a side note there is also the culture of the rebel that you have to look at. Some are true rebels but most are posers looking for acceptance by peer groups via inflammatory comments and/or actions. Good points all... The last are perhaps the creepiest and most disturbing, they're the type of people who generally act kind and even a bit subservient in real life but harbor a secret ill will toward everyone else believing they are superior to all. You can pretty much toss all the wife beaters, child abusers, puppy kickers, and general creeps into that little chamber pot of horrors, or what I call the shallow end of the gene pool. LOL, funny cause its true. Are these basically your trolls, who are to scared to take up for themselves in real life so they use the net to take out their pent up anger? I suppose if the choice is between them coming here and pissing some folks off, or going to school with a shotgun they just need to keep flaming away and well deal with it.... The real faults lie with the one place many try to avoid, the parents. You either raise your kids to have some standards of honor and decency or you don't. One of the things I really hate with modern society is it's need to pin the blame on everything from movies & cartoons to video games & music when someone is a jerk (ranging from minor to major and epic). It's a lack of discipline that breeds a lack of respect. Although I'm not one to advocate over harsh treatment of children people have taken this "we don't hit our kids" way way too far. I got my butt handed to me many a time when I was a kid, and sometimes I deserved it. Some parents should take a lesson from a particular episode of Futurama where Bender says "Have you ever tried just sitting down with your children, turning off the TV and hitting them?" I agree with you whole heartedly on the lack of discipline and really lack of any oversight or repsonsibility at all in regards to their children. Now of course, there are some really wonderfull parents who raise wonderfull children. And there will always be the exception to the rule, sometimes you will just have rotten kids come from good homes/parents but they are the exeption and its not a good idea to try to prove the rule with an exception (lol).... But we are speaking in generalities so I will continue. In so many ways we have just forgotten whats important in life. We get so busy chasing some imaginary goal that not only doesnt exist, but isnt worthy even if it did (kinda like soe), that we forget about what is important and about our responsibilities to our kids, family, and society. I wont go so far as to hold the entertainment industry blameless, there are just too many studies showing that exposure to extreme violence does affect a childs psyche. I dont think the answer is to restrict whats made though, but rather being much more stringest with its accessiblility (which again goes back to parents, but sometimes even good parents need some help). For example, a kid being able to play GTA is unconsionable to me and im far from being a prude but that game, while funny, should never be able to be bought by anyone who isnt 18.... Then again, Bender could be right...
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
Originally posted by Rekrul I didnt mean to implly that they all followed the rule, but rather it was a key tenet in their teachings and yes both the torah and the koran contain these teachings....
So do the western cultures:
"You reap what you sow."
It's common sense.
But here arises the problem. Average individual is acquainted with around 150 people. There are 6+ billion people. Simply put, no matter how you put it, you'll be surrounded with strangers. And sense of karma is mostly applicable to immediate effects, at least those noticable.
How can you define "doing good" when there are over 6 billion people you will never meet. How do you know that your actions don't hurt them. You do "good" because it makes you a more content person. You can never be sure that something you do, whether "good" of "bad", wont accidentally hurt another person. All any of us are capable of doing at any given time, is quite simply the best we can. How many of us are coming even remotely close to this ideal. Certainly we are capable of simply interacting with each other in a civil manner.....
Let's say you stop wasting food, since there's so many hungry people out there. Others follow your lead, and soon the food consumption falls. Food company starts laying off people, leaving 15000 unemployed. Due to decreased turnaround, they suspend their welfare programs, cancelling vitamine A vaccinations in third-world countries. As a result, 280,000 children go blind. Since that country relies on mining as chief export, the price of coal exports rises by 15%. This, in turn, raises the price of electricity and causes inflation. Your entire nations GPB falls by 7%.
So, by doing good, you affected your entire nation, hurting hundreds of millions of people in the process. Why? Because you wanted to do something good by not wasting food. It is simply not possible to examine all the different potential consequences to our behavior, but it is possible to consider how our behavior affects those that we are interacting with. Still, it is interesting to consider scenarios like you describe, although it can also become quite deprssing and lead to a bit of "paralysis by analysis."
Yes, it's a somewhat contrived example. But unfortunately, it's based on chlaos theory, which has been proven to be correct. Human society is no longer a simple linear organization. It also doesn't follow any other rules. Every, even the slightest event can and will cause ripples through entire world. And there are 6 billion such events happening every second of every day. Fixxord LOL... In the end though, for the most part things equal each other out, an equal and opposite reaction.
There is no universal good. Perhaps the best way to put it, is: "What you do not wish upon yourself, extend not to others." This leaves a lot open to different ways of life. After all, you are free to do what you want, just don't be hypocritical about it./agree So here we are back at the Golden Rule...LOL
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
Comments
To compound the problem, you cannot interrupt people on forums, so a cycle of harsher than the last one responses begins. In real life you will cut off the conversation a lot quicker to avoid a possible physical confrontation, but on the web there is no chance of that occuring, so you doggedly defend your position and the harshness escalates out of control.
It is more a function of the communications medium than a psychological state change IMO.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
Actually, it seems to me that everybody from the gaming industry, the entertainment industry, the medical industry, the paper editorials, music, religion, politics, and the schools, do not avoid blaming parenting for whatever sort of problem exists in morals and habits. Whether you are on the left or the right, parenting is an equal opportunity punching bag for everything that goes wrong in terms of habits and morals, going back as far as Plato.
You can blame parents to a point, but at a certain age you are responsible for yourself. I am a Alcoholic, and I don't blame anyone but me for that. I cheated on my wife, again it was my fault.
Whatever that age may be, people know right from wrong. I would bet most people on these boards know right from wrong and wouldn't say a lot of things to my face they would say here.
Ahh... thank you for getting honest with things. Yes, in the end we are all responsible for our own behaviour. This gets to the heart of things, i believe, because behind the anonymity that we all presume we are still behind the keyboard typing out thing that either attack or support someone else. Is it really so much easier to attack because no one will know who we are? and if so, what does that say about us?
And I would guess that Dr Bob and Bill W. would say that we are responsible for what we put out into the world (virtual or not) and that the results will come back on us accordingly.....
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
It's much like an age old apparent Biblical contradiction. Jesus was purportedly without sin. Yet he was "tempted" numerous times. And he once said that thinking about committing the sin was no less sin than doing it. So this has left a lot of people wondering how he could be tempted, yet still be considered sinless.
The answer to this puzzle is that you can be "tempted", i.e. think about doing something, and as long as you do not make up your mind that you will do it if you can get away with it, you are not sinning. The minute you decide you will do it, you have sinned, whether you do it or not.
The people who attack on the Internet, who would not normally attack you in person are not behaving differently. I tell you that these people what would attack you on the Internet at the drop of a hat, would do the same in RL if they could get away with it. Maybe they aren't the people you think they are.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
Actually, it seems to me that everybody from the gaming industry, the entertainment industry, the medical industry, the paper editorials, music, religion, politics, and the schools, do not avoid blaming parenting for whatever sort of problem exists in morals and habits. Whether you are on the left or the right, parenting is an equal opportunity punching bag for everything that goes wrong in terms of habits and morals, going back as far as Plato.
Personally I've seen less examples of that and more of parents blaming it all on everything but themselves. Companies are forced to rate their product by content and churning out more and more bland, "non-offensive" dross or go the opposite route and jump completely off the deep end and offend everyone just to make a point.
Every time we see some nut job shooting up a school we hear the usual music/video game tie in as if a game or a song could actually control people and make them do something, anyone with that weak a will would just wind up a bleating sheep.
Some parents nowadays want less and less to do with raising their own children, these are the ones who try to blame everything else for their child's misdeeds. We hear less about those where the parents take a larger part in their child's life because they're far less likely to become sociopaths. Of course too much involvement can lead to it's own problems, it's a careful balance that has to be maintained, far more than I could go into in a simple post.
Some also try to lay it at the feet of socioeconomic issues but I've seen poor and rich alike act as either honorable or base, and from my experiences it's usually the parenting or lack of that's been the deciding factor.
µV
That actually brings up one more perspective. Perhaps some of the more aggressive natured people are frustrated 320 lb musclemen who can't beat people up without going to jail, so they assert their bigness online?
I mean, personally I am used to almost everyone deferring to me in person. In a crowd, people will split apart to let me through. Nobody ever shows any frustration or ever confronts me. What makes it worse is that ever since age 21 I have either been the Golden Child of the company or in charge of it. So when I am on a forum and somebody confronts me, I am not used to that at all. Generally, I am a nice guy, but I admit to feeling frustrated and confused at times. A person with a more aggressive outlook in my situation could probably get very nasty here in the virtual world.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
It's much like an age old apparent Biblical contradiction. Jesus was purportedly without sin. Yet he was "tempted" numerous times. And he once said that thinking about committing the sin was no less sin than doing it. So this has left a lot of people wondering how he could be tempted, yet still be considered sinless.
The answer to this puzzle is that you can be "tempted", i.e. think about doing something, and as long as you do not make up your mind that you will do it if you can get away with it, you are not sinning. The minute you decide you will do it, you have sinned, whether you do it or not.
The people who attack on the Internet, who would not normally attack you in person are not behaving differently. I tell you that these people what would attack you on the Internet at the drop of a hat, would do the same in RL if they could get away with it. Maybe they aren't the people you think they are.
or maybe they arent the people that They think they are... but i digress, ur analogy intrigues me, and the same thoughts have crossed my mind. But i find it hard to believe that we have sinned just as badly by considering doing something wrong than if we actually do it, but that may be the human in me getting confused...
Just cause something is natural doesnt mean that we can excuse it as acceptable, to squat down and pee may be the most natural thing in the world (for a female) but that doesnt mean its approprate in any situation...
The thought that comes to my mind now, is the one universal truth that I have found to be consistent throughout the worlds many different religions and philosophies. And that is the concept of the Golden Rule, or Karma, or What goes around comes around, or whatever manner your able to process the concept.... But basically whatever you put out into the world will come back to you in one form or another.....
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
What's most disturbing to me is that parents allow their children to purchase some of the trash they purchase. Garbage in, garbage out. What you seem to fail to realize is that a child's mind and neural pathways are still developing and are less capable of distinguishing between reality and virtual. Exposure to some of the actions described in games, TV, and music can and will be used to establish the neural pathways these people will have to live with for the rest of their lives. It has nothing to do with willpower. It has to do with Biochemical patterns etched into your brain forever.
It's like when you buy a new car, you are told not to drive a long trip until 1000 miles or more are on the odometer. Why? Because you will burn in a pattern of expected speed and piston stroke depth on the engine and it will expect to do 60-70 and not perform at other speeds. Is it unreasonable to consider the human brain works like that also?
This is where the parents should step in, and fail to do so because they say "they are too busy". You should know what you children are watching, playing, and listening to and explain to them why certain things depicted in the media are wrong, so they do not begin to accept them as right or acceptable.
So Beatnik, you are right in pinning the responsibility on the parents, as they can ultimately take garbage media and turn it into a lesson of how to not do things, and they fail to do so. Bad music, TV, and games DO have a powerful negative influence, but only if parents allow them to.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
I found out late in my high school "career" that just about every girl in school liked me but was intimidated by my size, my brains, and the fact I had a girlfriend once from a prestigious private school. So I guess it can work both ways. Heck of a time for a horny high school boy to find out he was wanted. And hindsight being 20/20, the signs were there. Like the captain of the cheerleading team asking me to join them because I was big and strong. Holding cute chicks up by their rear ends. Sheesh, what a moron.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
SWG Veteran and Refugee, Intrepid server
NGE free as of Nov. 22, 2005
Now Playing: World of Warcrack
Forum Terrorist
What's most disturbing to me is that parents allow their children to purchase some of the trash they purchase. Garbage in, garbage out. What you seem to fail to realize is that a child's mind and neural pathways are still developing and are less capable of distinguishing between reality and virtual. Exposure to some of the actions described in games, TV, and music can and will be used to establish the neural pathways these people will have to live with for the rest of their lives. It has nothing to do with willpower. It has to do with Biochemical patterns etched into your brain forever.
It's like when you buy a new car, you are told not to drive a long trip until 1000 miles or more are on the odometer. Why? Because you will burn in a pattern of expected speed and piston stroke depth on the engine and it will expect to do 60-70 and not perform at other speeds. Is it unreasonable to consider the human brain works like that also?
This is where the parents should step in, and fail to do so because they say "they are too busy". You should know what you children are watching, playing, and listening to and explain to them why certain things depicted in the media are wrong, so they do not begin to accept them as right or acceptable.
So Beatnik, you are right in pinning the responsibility on the parents, as they can ultimately take garbage media and turn it into a lesson of how to not do things, and they fail to do so. Bad music, TV, and games DO have a powerful negative influence, but only if parents allow them to.
Sorry but I really have to disagree with you about biochemical patterns there, I have one beautiful example for what I say. My best friends lived above us for most of their daughters life, she spent nearly everyday downstairs with my wife and I. All of us have been into the punk scene since the late 70's through the 80's and into today. We've had our share of violent art and music as well as my gaming and anime around her for all of her 14 years. She has no trouble differentiating between fantasy and reality because of two things. I've always explained things to her to the best of her understanding for her various ages and I've never lied to her, not even about Santa etc.
Her parents are also very much a part of her life, they just like me to explain the more embarrassing aspects of real life to her since it's easier for a kid to hear the truth from a trusted adult than their own parents. We've never overdone it on what she can or can't see. Obviously we're not going to show her hardcore porn or the Faces of Death series but she's grown up with violent games, anime, and music and yet the only time she has displayed violence herself is when her and her girlfriends chased off a bully who was picking on some poor weak younger kid. They didn't even have to hit him, the guy was so terrified at the prospect of being beat up by a group of little girls he ran off with his tail between his legs.
There have been other people in history who tried to claim it was all chemistry, or genealogy, not that I'm comparing you to them at all I just want you to look at how wrong those people were.
I wont say that music and games can't contribute since some push the limits, some for art, some for controversy, some for money. The thing is if there is something in them that speaks to the violence inside that person it is because that violence was already preexisting and waiting for a trigger. Sometimes that trigger is in a song, or a game, or that jerk who cut in front of you on the expressway while they were yapping on a cell phone and you wish there was some way you could hit an ejection seat in their car and send them flying... ahh you get my point
.
Violent and antisocial behavior goes far deeper than a few songs or a game, many of them are shared problems, feelings of rejection, self despite, a need to be noticed. Shared feelings like this can be found in any media. Look at the Blues, and the later music that inspired Rock & Roll etc. All inspired by depression. People pushed to the edge will always be able to find something that speaks to them in music, and to their need for control in games but you have to look a lot further than "the straw that broke the camel's back" for those reasons.
µV
What's most disturbing to me is that parents allow their children to purchase some of the trash they purchase. Garbage in, garbage out. What you seem to fail to realize is that a child's mind and neural pathways are still developing and are less capable of distinguishing between reality and virtual. Exposure to some of the actions described in games, TV, and music can and will be used to establish the neural pathways these people will have to live with for the rest of their lives. It has nothing to do with willpower. It has to do with Biochemical patterns etched into your brain forever.
It's like when you buy a new car, you are told not to drive a long trip until 1000 miles or more are on the odometer. Why? Because you will burn in a pattern of expected speed and piston stroke depth on the engine and it will expect to do 60-70 and not perform at other speeds. Is it unreasonable to consider the human brain works like that also?
This is where the parents should step in, and fail to do so because they say "they are too busy". You should know what you children are watching, playing, and listening to and explain to them why certain things depicted in the media are wrong, so they do not begin to accept them as right or acceptable.
So Beatnik, you are right in pinning the responsibility on the parents, as they can ultimately take garbage media and turn it into a lesson of how to not do things, and they fail to do so. Bad music, TV, and games DO have a powerful negative influence, but only if parents allow them to.
If someone is "right" here, then it certainly wasn't me. I never said that "I" believed that the parents deserved to be knocked around by every professional, bureaucratic, political, philisophical, and commercial institution today. It is just that they are, because they think that just because they put the trash out there, that it is up to others to mitigate the effects.
I mean, we could lock the kids in a closet, and home school them, and never have them watch a TV, or play games. Because even if we let them out, have friends, and have a bit of autonomy, then they'll just go over to someone's house and undo everything parents try and do.
Yeah, you can take the strict line, but like the line says, "how can you keep them down on the farm after they see Paris?" Moreover, even if you take the hardline, they'll just rebel, and go off the deep end, like many of the friends I knew who had strict upbringings.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I just want to add a tinee bit here
I was at this "huge"(for this lil place anyway, 30+ people) LAN party, where there were about 10 adults, the rest were kids in the age of 13 to 18'ish.
Some of the kids played like they were on Internet, and were tossing insults and grief around while playing. Ofcourse, that simmered down when after one of them called my mom something bad, and told me to go do something bad with my dad, AFTER I had given him a pounding in BF 2..several times... Well, anyway, it simmered down, when he found me standing behind him, tapping his shoulder and asking him to repeat that.
The internet is a lawless place, where there's rarily any real consequenses for your actions, thus those who couldnt care less for anyone but themselves, take the oportunity to do whatever they please.
This LAN party however, put consequenses back into the picture, and after the consequenses were played out, everyone became model citizens
Starwars Galaxies, An Empier Diveded, That's what it says on my box anyway.
What's most disturbing to me is that parents allow their children to purchase some of the trash they purchase. Garbage in, garbage out. What you seem to fail to realize is that a child's mind and neural pathways are still developing and are less capable of distinguishing between reality and virtual. Exposure to some of the actions described in games, TV, and music can and will be used to establish the neural pathways these people will have to live with for the rest of their lives. It has nothing to do with willpower. It has to do with Biochemical patterns etched into your brain forever.
It's like when you buy a new car, you are told not to drive a long trip until 1000 miles or more are on the odometer. Why? Because you will burn in a pattern of expected speed and piston stroke depth on the engine and it will expect to do 60-70 and not perform at other speeds. Is it unreasonable to consider the human brain works like that also?
This is where the parents should step in, and fail to do so because they say "they are too busy". You should know what you children are watching, playing, and listening to and explain to them why certain things depicted in the media are wrong, so they do not begin to accept them as right or acceptable.
So Beatnik, you are right in pinning the responsibility on the parents, as they can ultimately take garbage media and turn it into a lesson of how to not do things, and they fail to do so. Bad music, TV, and games DO have a powerful negative influence, but only if parents allow them to.
If someone is "right" here, then it certainly wasn't me. I never said that "I" believed that the parents deserved to be knocked around by every professional, bureaucratic, political, philisophical, and commercial institution today. It is just that they are, because they think that just because they put the trash out there, that it is up to others to mitigate the effects.
I mean, we could lock the kids in a closet, and home school them, and never have them watch a TV, or play games. Because even if we let them out, have friends, and have a bit of autonomy, then they'll just go over to someone's house and undo everything parents try and do.
Yeah, you can take the strict line, but like the line says, "how can you keep them down on the farm after they see Paris?" Moreover, even if you take the hardline, they'll just rebel, and go off the deep end, like many of the friends I knew who had strict upbringings.
I was talking about educating kids, knowing what they watched and explaining right and wrong, especially when wrong was being presented as right. Just making sure children understand which "column" to file things under is very important. Just spending time with them explaining things...just saying "That's wrong", or that's unrealistic. Making sure they understand things. There is no discipline involved in what I am saying, nor is there any locking away of children.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
What's most disturbing to me is that parents allow their children to purchase some of the trash they purchase. Garbage in, garbage out. What you seem to fail to realize is that a child's mind and neural pathways are still developing and are less capable of distinguishing between reality and virtual. Exposure to some of the actions described in games, TV, and music can and will be used to establish the neural pathways these people will have to live with for the rest of their lives. It has nothing to do with willpower. It has to do with Biochemical patterns etched into your brain forever.
It's like when you buy a new car, you are told not to drive a long trip until 1000 miles or more are on the odometer. Why? Because you will burn in a pattern of expected speed and piston stroke depth on the engine and it will expect to do 60-70 and not perform at other speeds. Is it unreasonable to consider the human brain works like that also?
This is where the parents should step in, and fail to do so because they say "they are too busy". You should know what you children are watching, playing, and listening to and explain to them why certain things depicted in the media are wrong, so they do not begin to accept them as right or acceptable.
So Beatnik, you are right in pinning the responsibility on the parents, as they can ultimately take garbage media and turn it into a lesson of how to not do things, and they fail to do so. Bad music, TV, and games DO have a powerful negative influence, but only if parents allow them to.
Sorry but I really have to disagree with you about biochemical patterns there, I have one beautiful example for what I say. My best friends lived above us for most of their daughters life, she spent nearly everyday downstairs with my wife and I. All of us have been into the punk scene since the late 70's through the 80's and into today. We've had our share of violent art and music as well as my gaming and anime around her for all of her 14 years. She has no trouble differentiating between fantasy and reality because of two things. I've always explained things to her to the best of her understanding for her various ages and I've never lied to her, not even about Santa etc.
Her parents are also very much a part of her life, they just like me to explain the more embarrassing aspects of real life to her since it's easier for a kid to hear the truth from a trusted adult than their own parents. We've never overdone it on what she can or can't see. Obviously we're not going to show her hardcore porn or the Faces of Death series but she's grown up with violent games, anime, and music and yet the only time she has displayed violence herself is when her and her girlfriends chased off a bully who was picking on some poor weak younger kid. They didn't even have to hit him, the guy was so terrified at the prospect of being beat up by a group of little girls he ran off with his tail between his legs.
There have been other people in history who tried to claim it was all chemistry, or genealogy, not that I'm comparing you to them at all I just want you to look at how wrong those people were.
I wont say that music and games can't contribute since some push the limits, some for art, some for controversy, some for money. The thing is if there is something in them that speaks to the violence inside that person it is because that violence was already preexisting and waiting for a trigger. Sometimes that trigger is in a song, or a game, or that jerk who cut in front of you on the expressway while they were yapping on a cell phone and you wish there was some way you could hit an ejection seat in their car and send them flying... ahh you get my point
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Violent and antisocial behavior goes far deeper than a few songs or a game, many of them are shared problems, feelings of rejection, self despite, a need to be noticed. Shared feelings like this can be found in any media. Look at the Blues, and the later music that inspired Rock & Roll etc. All inspired by depression. People pushed to the edge will always be able to find something that speaks to them in music, and to their need for control in games but you have to look a lot further than "the straw that broke the camel's back" for those reasons.
Now, read my quote in red, and your quote in red and tell me how we are not saying the same thing? You stepped in and explained things to her. That is what most parents do not do. And when they don't, they allow the developing mind to learn incorrectly. You did a GREAT JOB and a great service to that young woman by explaining things when they needed explaining. Few adults do that in today's world because of increased demands on their time.
I don't disagree with what you said in your post one bit. I just think you missed my point. Parents (or or adults) need to explain things children see early and often, especially when they are of questionable moral nature. And in a lot of cases, they do not. And when they do not, the games, TV, and music can trigger or legitimize bad behavior.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
I didnt mean to implly that they all followed the rule, but rather it was a key tenet in their teachings and yes both the torah and the koran contain these teachings....
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
I didnt mean to implly that they all followed the rule, but rather it was a key tenet in their teachings and yes both the torah and the koran contain these teachings....
So do the western cultures:
"You reap what you sow."
It's common sense.
But here arises the problem. Average individual is acquainted with around 150 people. There are 6+ billion people. Simply put, no matter how you put it, you'll be surrounded with strangers. And sense of karma is mostly applicable to immediate effects, at least those noticable.
How can you define "doing good" when there are over 6 billion people you will never meet. How do you know that your actions don't hurt them.
Let's say you stop wasting food, since there's so many hungry people out there. Others follow your lead, and soon the food consumption falls. Food company starts laying off people, leaving 15000 unemployed. Due to decreased turnaround, they suspend their welfare programs, cancelling vitamine A vaccinations in third-world countries. As a result, 280,000 children go blind. Since that country relies on mining as chief export, the price of coal exports rises by 15%. This, in turn, raises the price of electricity and causes inflation. Your entire nations GPB falls by 7%.
So, by doing good, you affected your entire nation, hurting hundreds of millions of people in the process. Why? Because you wanted to do something good by not wasting food.
Yes, it's a somewhat contrived example. But unfortunately, it's based on chaos theory, which has been proven to be correct. Human society is no longer a simple linear organization. It also doesn't follow any other rules. Every, even the slightest event can and will cause ripples through entire world. And there are 6 billion such events happening every second of every day.
There is no universal good. Perhaps the best way to put it, is: "What you do not wish upon yourself, extend not to others." This leaves a lot open to different ways of life. After all, you are free to do what you want, just don't be hypocritical about it.
Anonymity, thye don't have to fear any reprisal so therefore they act like mindless jackals. Find some way to make them accountable and it will make them think twice (after the 4th or 5th penalty applied).
On a similar subject while i have no issue with an outburst of frustration of Vent or TS people who actually have to type out expletives in chat also have the time to think about what they are saying and temper the language, its typed comments like this that are just another sign of the attitude that things said and done in game have no effect on RL.
Its almost at the point where i'd be in favor of a gameing ID where to play any game people must have an age verification ID , that is unique and has to be provided when subscribing to a game, and where by a ban for repeated offences in one game can also result in bans in other games (not by the same producer).
Of course if this were to happen there would need to be a clearly laid out procedure of what various offiences and repeat offences mean in terms of disciplinary action which would need to be agreed to and followed by all producers, this would be needed since the way ingame offences are punished is inconsistant at best.
Enter, the individualistic society.
(a): I need help. Nobody helps me. So I won't help anyone.
(b): I need help. Maybe (a) will help me. No, he doesn't help anyone. I won't help anyone either.
(c): I need help. Maybe (a) or (b) will help me. No, they don't help anyone.
...
(z): I need help. Nobody helps anyone, so I'll help myself.
This behaviour can easily be modeled in mathematical terms. Each person has an 0.5 chance of helping others. But, depending on outside factors, this value is slightly biased between 0.4999999 and 0.50000001. But since there's so many people in society, this quickly adds up. If each person is confronted with 1 such decision daily, in a society of several million this bias will quickly rise to 0.6, 0.7 or even highers, causing entire society to become either helpful or unhelpful.
The rate of this change is directly proportional to feedback. When training neural nets, you establish an artifical feedback loop, that feeds the data you define as "right" and "wrong". After putting the net through 1 million or so cycles, the neural net has "learned" to distinguish these on its own. Neural nets are modeled after the way human brain works, so it's a very good aproximation of human behaviour.
But in real life you cannot make 1 million cycles. In many cases, you will only have several cycles upon which you must base what is right and wrong. This allows for random deviations to propagate.
In addition, the feedback in real world is not immediate, if it exists at all. For every action you perform, it may take hours, days, or even years, to get some feedback on how you did. And that is only if you can correlate the feedback you received with your original action.
This results in a very unreliable and mostly undeterministic perception of ones action. This is why people trust instincts more than facts. Bringing us back to square one, that the human is essentially a glorified beast, driven by the most basic of their instincts.
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
"You reap what you sow."
It's common sense.
But here arises the problem. Average individual is acquainted with around 150 people. There are 6+ billion people. Simply put, no matter how you put it, you'll be surrounded with strangers. And sense of karma is mostly applicable to immediate effects, at least those noticable.
How can you define "doing good" when there are over 6 billion people you will never meet. How do you know that your actions don't hurt them. You do "good" because it makes you a more content person. You can never be sure that something you do, whether "good" of "bad", wont accidentally hurt another person. All any of us are capable of doing at any given time, is quite simply the best we can. How many of us are coming even remotely close to this ideal. Certainly we are capable of simply interacting with each other in a civil manner.....
Let's say you stop wasting food, since there's so many hungry people out there. Others follow your lead, and soon the food consumption falls. Food company starts laying off people, leaving 15000 unemployed. Due to decreased turnaround, they suspend their welfare programs, cancelling vitamine A vaccinations in third-world countries. As a result, 280,000 children go blind. Since that country relies on mining as chief export, the price of coal exports rises by 15%. This, in turn, raises the price of electricity and causes inflation. Your entire nations GPB falls by 7%.
So, by doing good, you affected your entire nation, hurting hundreds of millions of people in the process. Why? Because you wanted to do something good by not wasting food. It is simply not possible to examine all the different potential consequences to our behavior, but it is possible to consider how our behavior affects those that we are interacting with. Still, it is interesting to consider scenarios like you describe, although it can also become quite deprssing and lead to a bit of "paralysis by analysis."
Yes, it's a somewhat contrived example. But unfortunately, it's based on chlaos theory, which has been proven to be correct. Human society is no longer a simple linear organization. It also doesn't follow any other rules. Every, even the slightest event can and will cause ripples through entire world. And there are 6 billion such events happening every second of every day. Fixxord LOL... In the end though, for the most part things equal each other out, an equal and opposite reaction.
There is no universal good. Perhaps the best way to put it, is: "What you do not wish upon yourself, extend not to others." This leaves a lot open to different ways of life. After all, you are free to do what you want, just don't be hypocritical about it. /agree So here we are back at the Golden Rule...LOL
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin