I agree the points made in the editorial certainly substantiate what exactly made WoW the household MMO.
I think any developer trying to make that next big hit will essentially need to take what WoW had done and simply improve it. Especially in the easy to learn, hard to master category. WoW has some tedious grinding, but hard to master is a subjective statement at best. Developing that extra "hard core" content only helps you keep that market segment while retaining the base of casual gamers that WoW enjoys.
Personally if I wanted to break into the MMO genre with my own Gorilla I would look at untapped markets or at least one with little competition. Take the MMOFPS genre for example. There are only 3 or 4 out there and your average gamer has maybe heard of one of them, Planetside. I played it for about a month before I realized that it's as repetitive as all the other FPS's out there plus you have to pay a subscription fee, no thanks.
Where Planetside failed was it was just a crappy FPS without any of the depth that a typical MMO has. They didn't balance it enough to keep a player base. If you want people to stick around you have to give them a nice hamsterwheel to run on. Add more levels, add some hard to get items, add some more skill sets and bam you have people paying fee's because they now have something to accomplish other then take over tower, take over base, with the same weapons and vehicles over and over until level 25. You'd be surprised at how adding some depth will keep people coming back.
If the marketing dept's for EA's Battlefield or Activision's Call of Duty did a little research I would be willing to bet they'd find a huge opportunity in this gaming genre. Just take what Planetside did and build the MMO part of it, using your own gameplay/graphics of course. I'd like to think they've done this and I'm just telling them what they already know, but if you saw some of the utter stupidity that comes from VP's and directors at the very large company I work for then you wouldn't put it past them.
Althought M. Starley has many good points...He is too straight to the point... Most devs will feel "hurted" and prolly won't be able to read the good parts. They will come with something such as: "Devs are human to".
That is why I try to focus on 1 aspect only, short span attention (after this they go on berserk and trash everything you say out of habits, this is prolly how they settle everything with their programmers and anyone under their "leadership")...Non-raiding servers! No matter the game, the setting or whatever else, if there is raiding, they better make a non-raiding server to reach a broader audience. Complexes and well detailed posts won't work anymore than a complex and detailed gameplay will strike the noobs. Think of the devs as noobs, not as professionnals, you will get them to understand you a LOT more by taking them by the hand.
EDIT: No matter the game, no matter the setting, I am sure they have at least 1 competent programmer that would really love to be free of all this bossing and would drool at the idea to be maintaining such a non-raiding server. The "design level" is rather minimal and he could refer directly to the Lead Design and prolly do most of the stuff ahead of time so the Lead just approve...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Stirge Brad McQuaid and everyone at Sigil should read this, before it's too late.
Why? Their focus is on a completely different playerbase. Actually i think they've already been giving in too much to the WoW type of player.
I was thinking specifically about point #3 in the editorial. With their strong focus on next generation graphics, the team at Sigil are designing themselves out of a sizeable player base.
Give me a good 'ol (pet) class based MMOG with tons of content and I'll a very happy gamer...throw in jaw-droppingly beautiful graphics and a spooky-smart AI and me love you long time!
Originally posted by Holyavenger1 Very nice article. I think it is very much to the point and does identify several of the major reasons for WoW's success. However, I'd like to point out that other things (that were mentionned earlier) are just as important, albeit maybe less evident.
First, I think everybody will agree that the franchise name and company name did a lot for it. Not only because people would be more inclined to trust a name such as Blizzard, but also because Blizzard has more means -- and invested more money -- to be able to produce such a large MMORPG and being able to market it (all the PR stuff).
Second, there's also where the market was at when the game was released. MMOGs were becoming more popular than ever with success stories from around the world for various games -- and the games were getting bigger, too -- which made it so people became more aware of the genre.
Also, on the market side, the internet continued to grow and people using it for years also came to use it more and for more things then they did in the past (i.e. less for work, more for entertainement)... which leads to third part of what I define as the market evolution: videogames perception. Videogames are no more a niche entertainement for socially inept teens: it is now a phenomenon that touches almost every demograpahics and the videogame market in the past 5-6 years as grown a lot -- and has gotten a far better public image in the process.
Finally, I'd say that, yes, the game in itself was designed in a way that make it easier to be widely adopted. But as we saw for several other types of product, you might just have designed the next best thing and it might still be a flop. Why ? As we saw here, bceause of the market readiness to your product and whole perception of your company/product/industry. These two sides, IMHO, are just as important to explain the success of WoW as the 3 reasons the OP evoked.
Not too many smart answers in the forums until this one. I have to agree with everything you've said, EXCEPT point #1.
Could the name have brought INITIAL hype and playerbase? Absolutely. As soon as the game came out, Im sure one of the major factors was Blizzard and the Warcraft name. However, that nearly is not enough to KEEP players playing 2 years later. The game is just fun to play, and is a GOOD game. Period. Not more can really be said.
I will point out what I said earlier regarding this:
Wow is what is becasue of the game it is. Period. In my personal experience, Ive never been able to get friends of mine to play any of the games that I play. Mind you Im not a teenager. Myself, I started playing WoW because of one ofthe most important aspects of expanding a game: word of Mouth. To be 100% honest, I was told to try WoW while shooting @ People in COD2. I was meh, I'll give it a shot. Months later, I still play the game every day and have not become bored of it. But not only that, my wife, 4 of my friends and my father (yes my 50+ year old father) have started playing. Why? word of mouth. But Why do they still keep playing? Do you think they have any idea of what the RTS World of Warcraft is? No. Do they have any notion of what Blizzard is? No. They still play the game because of what the game offers. And besides word of mouth, which can only go so far, ( and also the initial hype from "Blizzard" and "Warcraft"title can only go so far) Why did they start playing to begin with? The 3 points this Author wrote about.
I blog for GamingWeez. Do you? Discuss everything MMO related in a community that lets YOU be the blogger. www.GamingWeez.com
I have to agree with Jeremy on a lot of points he has made, I hated EVE online due to the fact it was truely like reading an encyclopedia just to get out of the hanger he is correct "Easy to learn, hard to master" makes sense to me. I still hate WoW thou easy to learn boring as hell.
I also agree with the statement that graphics make a huge difference to my desire to play. If it looks like crap it is crap. WoW looks like a cartoon I did not like its graphics however I loved the Lineage 2 graphic set and still play to this day, so graphics are important.
About content this is the catch 22 a game without content, Hmmmm. ie D&D Online sounded so sweet looked so good, but had only on e month of content peeps played finished and canceled their accounts never to return so content is clearly important. but I did not feel like doing quests all day long in order to level up and hated that approach used in WoW.
I still do not like WoW and am not sure Jeremy used it well enough in his article to benefit his points. I think there are several games that do things right. I cant argue WoW is truly the 600 lbs gorilla in the room when it comes to MMOs, but it's not a game for everyone. So to use WoW in every example does indeed make Starley sound like a fanboy.
Is this guy kidding? WOW is basicly like walking endlessly on a treadmill, but you get fat instead of skinny. It amazes me that it holds anybody's interest for long. I guess it may be good for kids who need something simple, but for any serious gamer, it is extremely deficient.
Originally posted by Gorukhatheres hundreds of thousands of fanbois, not unlike Finaly Fantasy fanbois, who will buy anything Blizzard.
There's way more star wars fans than warcraft fans, and SWG actually implemented lots of things better than any other game; yet it never enjoyed a comparable customer base.
Lheks and Paks, I couldnt agree more.
TO the above poster and Star Wars Galaxies fans, I feel for how you got treated and how badly Sony handled so many things.
But to be completely honest I hated the UI of SWG. I hated the combat style. I didnt like the PvP. It was just too simple imo. I shoot at you and you shoot at me and what........?? we just see who falls first?? I know Im over simplifying it, but it was too simple.
I know its the popular thing to HATE WoW but I like WoW. Sure Ive quit once. And there are times I curse the game. But the UI is great. The combat style is great. I know many people have claimed its just jumping around and button mashing. Obviously those people dont understand the purpose jumping around serves.
One thing you said I really take exception with and Im not a huge Star Wars fan. " SWG actually implemented lots of things better than any other game; yet it never enjoyed a comparable customer base."
Please expound on that for me. Especially the "IMPLEMENTED LOTS OF THINGS BETTER".
As a side note to WoW, when I had too much time to play the game it got boring really quickly. Everything is farming. Whether its farming honor for rank, farming MC for gear or farming rep for gear and goodies. HOWEVER, now that I have less time and I just pvp with a couple friends for a hour a so a night, its a much more enjoyable.
Somehow I get the feeling that WoW wouldnt have so much "hate" directed towards it if there were BETTER games to play. Then when people said "ZOMG WoW is GREAT", they would be met with... "Thats your opinion, but IM ENJOYING x%4 game".
No, it's not the Blizzarard name or the Warcraft name that made WoW a super-star! The *only* Blizz game I ever played in depth was Diablo I. About as far as one can get from MMORPG. In WoW, I play 1st person mode all the time; I like the immersion. I do NOT play RTS games, not Starcraft, not OvH, not any of the Warcraft incarnations. None of it.
When Blizz does a Starcraft MMORPG, I will buy it and play it. Not because I ever loved Starcraft, I didn't. I think all RTS games are pretty boring. I will buy and play because it is likely to be FUN !
The companies that don't wake up to what the consumer wants are going to end up in the same place the US auto companies were at in the '70s and the place they are headed to now : bankruptcy and failure.
What would you like to bet that V:SoH is another 'hard' EQ1 with drastic Death Penalties, Slow Leveling, Forced Grouping, and so forth? And what would you like to bet that Mythic's WAR is going to be a fast paced, fun game where it is easy on the players at the start and ramps in commitment as one plays longer? And which do you think will gain the subscriber base over the long haul?
I think it is sad that companies fail to see the light, and listen to Elitist players who have nothing else to do 24/7 but play games and Troll the boards. Those companies are going to pay the price, as will the customers who trusted them.
WoW is not the best game on the market. I would be hard-pressed to name the best game, but I do find WoW to be enjoyable. And it is not because of the point and click to move. wasd FTW.
WoW does have a huge community, and although there are many less than pleasent people around, you can generally find some like-minded people with whom to quest. And it does run really well. I do not have great hardware, but I do have decent hardware, and I have spent way too much time tweaking the graphics settings in CoX to get it above 4fps.
EVE was difficult to master and took time, but it is very open-ended and you could customize your character and skills in so many ways, and the real-time training made it very nice to progress for a casual player. Even being a casual player for less than a year, I ended up with two battleships a battlecruiser and a host of cruisers and frigates. And the EVE community is really pretty darn good.
For difficulty though, I would put AO up against EVE any day. This buff from this class, this one from that, now I put in my implant, then I can put in this other implant, then swap out the first implant, then I can put on my armor, swap implant and now equip my gun. I even had Excel charts to use with Nano Nanny to figure out how I could possibly get that QL132 Manex equiped.
The other point I wanted to make echos a previous post or two as well as the article. Make it fun and easy right away. The problem with say LineageII is that yes, it may be a great game once you hit level 20, but killing 100 frogs to get 3 drops and then killing 100 large frogs to get 10 drops repeatedly for 20 levels is really boring. Not that the typical "fetch me a pail" then go talk to the person 10 feet away is great, but there is some variety in the quests available in WoW. Also, questing in WoW and CoX gives you story arcs. Which can actually progress the plot for that character. And that can be fun to go through the story arc and see where it leads.
What are your qualifications that makes what you say "gold"?
Some interesting opinions, but I've seen some MMO's out there that match your criteria but are not 600lb gorillas.
your arguement is so persuasive, so filled with knowledge and insight. You back up your argument very articulately, with suggestions of improvements and raising examples to glorify your position....oh wait, you didn't
This guy is writing an editorial for mmorpg.com? This is the agenda MMORPG.com want to pin their flag to?
Lets paraphrase what he says...
He wants the games to be;
Easy.
Filled with led by the nose content (ala WoW)
Pretty
Moron. You are exactly everything thats wrong with this hobby and why it's getting flushed down the pan in the pursuit of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
I mean... how dare a game of EvE's quality dare have a learning curve of longer then 5 minutes? I mean, seriously... Whos ever gonna play a game they actually have to learn? Crazy.
Welcome to the new world of fast food sugary MMO porn that caters to the eight year old and his casual gamer dad who is only allowed to play for an hour a week by his wife. Both of whom have a sh*t two year out of date PC.
Almost time to walk away from MMORPGs I think and leave them to the children and idiots.
Originally posted by danmax67 Is this guy kidding? WOW is basicly like walking endlessly on a treadmill, but you get fat instead of skinny. It amazes me that it holds anybody's interest for long. I guess it may be good for kids who need something simple, but for any serious gamer, it is extremely deficient.
I'm serious gamer as I've been last 25 years. I'm hardly a kid anymore, so try harder.
Wow is good game. Period.
Your definition of good MMORPG is propably different from mine. The MMO I've played for longest time is NationStates. There's player created content for you. And serious gaming.
I'm serious gamer, but I don't want serious gaming. I play to have fun.
Could the name have brought INITIAL hype and playerbase? Absolutely. As soon as the game came out, Im sure one of the major factors was Blizzard and the Warcraft name. However, that nearly is not enough to KEEP players playing 2 years later. The game is just fun to play, and is a GOOD game. Period. Not more can really be said.
I have to aggree with this comment. Lets face it folks. If the game was not fun i dont think you would have 7 million subscribers.
Whether any one individual thinks the game is good or bad. The Fact still stands that WOW is the Most popular, and profitable MMO todate period.
You know I remember when the only 600lbs thing in the room was Lum the Mad, I think it was back when making fun of his fat ass was actually cool Damn you woW for being fatter than Lum
Stop the debate about WoW being good or bad kids. The point is that it is hugely popular and the arguement should be what makes it so, instead of fanbois and hatahs just throwing poop at eachother.
It's better be hated for who you are, than loved for who you aren't.
Easy to learn hard to master? WTF is this guy talking about. Wow is anything but hard to master ffs. That's why people will choose to sit in freakin IF or Orgrimmar rather than bother going on another instance run. If this were true then people who had been in game since launch wouldnt have 5 or more level 60 alts that most of them play all equally well. It takes a real special person to not be able to play wow effectively (and there are thousands of these special people in wow where I can only hope they will stay).
I think this guy has some sort of reading disability or, as with most editorialists, only likes to pick and choose what best supports his own arguement even if it only uses part of a sentence. Koster has said MANY times that what killed swg was in-fact the lack of content additions to the game. Hell the first expansion was somethign that had been promised from the get go as a launch feature and the final 2 were nothing more than marketing ploys to help generate interest in 2 very crappy star wars movies. (actually imo the only good star wars movie was V: Empire Strikes back but thats another argument for another time). Star Wars Galaxies, apart from death watch bunker and a couple very short lived "events", has had no content added to the game at all. In fact I would go so far to say that the introduction of the Hologrind then the Village was SOE's way to mask the fact that they didnt have a clue what to add into the huge game world of swg.
Graphics? What pc games dont have option sliders to change the graphics to be more suitable to a person's rig? This is PCGaming, not console gaming. Sure if you turn everything down like a freakin moron then yes it will look like poop. Option sliders allow people to make fine tuning adjustments, maybe the editorial writer doesnt have the patience it takes to fine tune their system and the games he plays? If so GTFO and leave pc's to people who know wtf they are doing. Its people like the editorialist that piss me off in mmos thinking that everyone around them should hold thier hand and provide them with free tech support so they can get their game running. People can swap in a new vid card on a whim or slap in a stick or two of memory. If ya cant then ya got no business on a pc. The pcgaming community is the vanguard of gamers. Just because someone can hop on daddy's office computer doesnt mean that developers should not give us the graphics and gameplay that we expect. I do not want to play with grandpa, I do not want to play with the snot nosed little prepubuscent that thinks its cool to talk l1k3 dey r l337. My rig is 4 years old and there isnt a game out there that I don't play at 1600x1200 with very appealing graphics (including a fairly good number of games in closed beta).
Yes I am ranting a bit, but this dumbing down of everything will be the much heralded death of pcgaming. Most of the pcgaming crowd have the technical know how and patience in order to be able to play games and enjoy them. Individuals like the writer of the editorial and most of the people I came across in my time in wow are people that would have killed themselves a decade or so ago when we had to write our own batch files to get games to even run. Just because windows makes pc's look much simpler they aren't. They are first and foremost tools, and tools in the hands of the uninformed are dangerous.
I understand the article. WoW is a game that I tried really hard to stay with. I loved the graphics. I loved the ease of play. The limits put in the game to make it a grind made me leave the game. I got tired of no one wanting to do quests with me but was wanting me to do raids. I got tired of trying to complete all the quests (because I love the stories and reading them) but spending hours of time to complete 2 and advance a couple of more to turn around and go back to where I got the 2 I completed to pick up 2 more. The limitations that made up the time sinks in my mind ruined my fun.
I have to say that I understand why WoW is the 600lb Gorilla. I would suggest it to people if they wanted something simple. I would warn them of what I did not like. I would not suggest EVE unless I knew the person was hard core. WoW and CoH is the two I would suggest to most people. I might also suggest Guild Wars. At the moment, there is no MMOs that can really hold my attention (EVE could but I don't have the time necessary for it ) and I am hoping to find something in the new ones that are on the horizon. Reading about the story in the Chronicles of the Spellborn and Vanguard really gives me hope. I am an explorer type and also love finding all the stories. I really hope that some of the new games really have some of the suggestions here that I have to agree with. I want to see something come out and compete with WoW. Does not mean I would be playing the game that did.
Originally posted by Gorukha LOL, retarded this article be. Warcraft relies heavily on the name, theres hundreds of thousands of fanbois , not unlike Finaly Fantasy fanbois, who will buy anything Blizzard. Also it's a solid game, easy to play. It's not a work of genius, just a franchise name with a decent gameplay on top of it.
Editorials inherintly suck, so lets stop this garbage.
BOLLOCKS! WoW has attracted more first time gamers to the market than any other game in existance. You can't tell me that first time gamers are Blizzard/Warcraft fanbois; they have no prior knowledge of the Warcraft at all. It's success lies in the fact that it IS and easy game to play. It has solid gameplay. It is easy for first time gamers to play and doesn't punish failure ... it's meant to be a game and meant to be fun to play.
I think this editorial pretty much hits the mark.
That said, there are many games that don't want to be 600lb gorillas. There are still several niche's for other games to exploit ... the hardcore gamers who sneer at WoW simplicity, the gamers who love the challenge of complex gameplay, the gamers who are sick of the fantasy genre. the gamers that value community over content, the gamers who want the bloodlust of full-on PvP, the gamers who WANT the sandbox and create their own content. And there is nothing wrong with that. EQ2, EVE, City of Heroes/Villians, Anarchy Online, Ultima Online, Darkfall (when we see it), Ryzom Ring and even Neverwinter Nights.
There is plenty of room in the market for all games. Some gamers will not go for the popular game because it doesn't appeal to them. They would rather go for the game that occupies THEIR niche. And this is where I think the music anaolgy is appropriate. You have "popular commercial music" ... and then there is classical, adult alternative, heavy metal, punk, goth rock. There is a musical genre that will appeal to all niche groups. And then there's the masses.
Originally posted by Gorukha LOL, retarded this article be. Warcraft relies heavily on the name, theres hundreds of thousands of fanbois , not unlike Finaly Fantasy fanbois, who will buy anything Blizzard. Also it's a solid game, easy to play. It's not a work of genius, just a franchise name with a decent gameplay on top of it.
Editorials inherintly suck, so lets stop this garbage.
BOLLOCKS! WoW has attracted more first time gamers to the market than any other game in existance. You can't tell me that first time gamers are Blizzard/Warcraft fanbois; they have no prior knowledge of the Warcraft at all. It's success lies in the fact that it IS and easy game to play. It has solid gameplay. It is easy for first time gamers to play and doesn't punish failure ... it's meant to be a game and meant to be fun to play.
I think this editorial pretty much hits the mark.
That said, there are many games that don't want to be 600lb gorillas. There are still several niche's for other games to exploit ... the hardcore gamers who sneer at WoW simplicity, the gamers who love the challenge of complex gameplay, the gamers who are sick of the fantasy genre. the gamers that value community over content, the gamers who want the bloodlust of full-on PvP, the gamers who WANT the sandbox and create their own content. And there is nothing wrong with that. EQ2, EVE, City of Heroes/Villians, Anarchy Online, Ultima Online, Darkfall (when we see it), Ryzom Ring and even Neverwinter Nights.
There is plenty of room in the market for all games. Some gamers will not go for the popular game because it doesn't appeal to them. They would rather go for the game that occupies THEIR niche. And this is where I think the music anaolgy is appropriate. You have "popular commercial music" ... and then there is classical, adult alternative, heavy metal, punk, goth rock. There is a musical genre that will appeal to all niche groups. And then there's the masses.
That's my 2c anyway.
CoH/V had way more content then WoW unless you define things to grind as content. There are problems with CoH/V's content like lack of origional art and too much being expressed through text but in CoH you are constantly taking missions with a coherent storyline to them. In WoW I find myself either grinding boars to get xp or grinding boars to get their tusks to hand them over to a guy who will give me money and xp. I'll admit CoH/V are nich games because of their focos on text based lore and instancing but saying that WoW has more content CoH is a flat out lie.
I'm not going to attack your comparisan to music because I'm nice. But I could if I wanted to...way too easily too.
Originally posted by Distortion0 I'll admit CoH/V are nich games because of their focos on text based lore and instancing but saying that WoW has more content CoH is a flat out lie.
Have another read of my post. I didn't say COH had less content at all.
And why would I "lie"? Such as strange choice of word for who should be an intellectual discussion.
"harcore gamers...the value community over content"-you, one post ago.
Originally posted by danmax67 Is this guy kidding? WOW is basicly like walking endlessly on a treadmill, but you get fat instead of skinny. It amazes me that it holds anybody's interest for long. I guess it may be good for kids who need something simple, but for any serious gamer, it is extremely deficient.
Serious gamers? You mean the go as fast as possible to max level and then whine there is no content or the people that play every way, class, race possible to enjoy everything there is?
Sigil has already promised the game would be the biggest treadmill ever made.
EVE is not far from being that now. EVE in most peoples books that have tried it is a glorified Earth & Beyond.
The asian games that are currently being tranformed for US and Euro play will take a bite out of most of the big names getting ready to launch.
SUN, CABAL and games of these types that incorporate western styles with what is working in Asia will land the most players when they come out. Throw in the games being done by the former Blizzard crew in the 4 companies they split off and made and maybe the Star Trek game by Perpetual Ent. and you will see what direction games are taking.
When WoW eventually dies there will not be another game to have the subsciption base like it has now. There are far to many options coming out that will split the market up into to many small sections for it to happen.
Originally posted by Sanctus_Mors Jeremy Starley , How many successful MMO's have you developed?
Normally I hold my tongue, as everyone is entitled to their opinions. (Even those rude people who choose to personally attack someone over an article.) However, this is one of the most ignorant things I have ever read, and you'd be surprised by the number of people who think this is a valid argument.
Taking your line of logic, I cannot write about MMORPGs because I haven't developed one. (Never mind all those who have developed one and are still clueless as to why it failed)
Fine. But, since I cannot write about MMORPGs - having never developed one myself - you cannot comment about editorials, having never been published yourself. Your history teacher? He can't teach history, since he wasn't there. Vote? Well, you can't, because you obviously don't know squat about politics, what with you not being a politician and all. Don't like your meal? Well, keep your trap shut; you're not a chef in a professional kitchen, so your opinion on the food he made is invalid. Oh, you also can't say anything about the music, since you're not a musician.
You don't need to do the thing to form an opinion on it. You don't need to be a professional in order to do something, and if you need success in a subject in order to analyze it - then by God, our whole world should implode any second now since we are obviously defying nature with our very existance.
Agent_X7 AKA J Star [/URL] Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com or its management.
Comments
Why? Their focus is on a completely different playerbase. Actually i think they've already been giving in too much to the WoW type of player.
Make a difference!
I agree the points made in the editorial certainly substantiate what exactly made WoW the household MMO.
I think any developer trying to make that next big hit will essentially need to take what WoW had done and simply improve it. Especially in the easy to learn, hard to master category. WoW has some tedious grinding, but hard to master is a subjective statement at best. Developing that extra "hard core" content only helps you keep that market segment while retaining the base of casual gamers that WoW enjoys.
Personally if I wanted to break into the MMO genre with my own Gorilla I would look at untapped markets or at least one with little competition. Take the MMOFPS genre for example. There are only 3 or 4 out there and your average gamer has maybe heard of one of them, Planetside. I played it for about a month before I realized that it's as repetitive as all the other FPS's out there plus you have to pay a subscription fee, no thanks.
Where Planetside failed was it was just a crappy FPS without any of the depth that a typical MMO has. They didn't balance it enough to keep a player base. If you want people to stick around you have to give them a nice hamsterwheel to run on. Add more levels, add some hard to get items, add some more skill sets and bam you have people paying fee's because they now have something to accomplish other then take over tower, take over base, with the same weapons and vehicles over and over until level 25. You'd be surprised at how adding some depth will keep people coming back.
If the marketing dept's for EA's Battlefield or Activision's Call of Duty did a little research I would be willing to bet they'd find a huge opportunity in this gaming genre. Just take what Planetside did and build the MMO part of it, using your own gameplay/graphics of course. I'd like to think they've done this and I'm just telling them what they already know, but if you saw some of the utter stupidity that comes from VP's and directors at the very large company I work for then you wouldn't put it past them.
Althought M. Starley has many good points...He is too straight to the point... Most devs will feel "hurted" and prolly won't be able to read the good parts. They will come with something such as: "Devs are human to".
That is why I try to focus on 1 aspect only, short span attention (after this they go on berserk and trash everything you say out of habits, this is prolly how they settle everything with their programmers and anyone under their "leadership")...Non-raiding servers! No matter the game, the setting or whatever else, if there is raiding, they better make a non-raiding server to reach a broader audience. Complexes and well detailed posts won't work anymore than a complex and detailed gameplay will strike the noobs. Think of the devs as noobs, not as professionnals, you will get them to understand you a LOT more by taking them by the hand.
EDIT: No matter the game, no matter the setting, I am sure they have at least 1 competent programmer that would really love to be free of all this bossing and would drool at the idea to be maintaining such a non-raiding server. The "design level" is rather minimal and he could refer directly to the Lead Design and prolly do most of the stuff ahead of time so the Lead just approve...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Why? Their focus is on a completely different playerbase. Actually i think they've already been giving in too much to the WoW type of player.
I was thinking specifically about point #3 in the editorial. With their strong focus on next generation graphics, the team at Sigil are designing themselves out of a sizeable player base.
oops worng message
Give me a good 'ol (pet) class based MMOG with tons of content and I'll a very happy gamer...throw in jaw-droppingly beautiful graphics and a spooky-smart AI and me love you long time!
Not too many smart answers in the forums until this one. I have to agree with everything you've said, EXCEPT point #1.
Could the name have brought INITIAL hype and playerbase? Absolutely. As soon as the game came out, Im sure one of the major factors was Blizzard and the Warcraft name. However, that nearly is not enough to KEEP players playing 2 years later. The game is just fun to play, and is a GOOD game. Period. Not more can really be said.
I will point out what I said earlier regarding this:
Wow is what is becasue of the game it is. Period. In my personal experience, Ive never been able to get friends of mine to play any of the games that I play. Mind you Im not a teenager. Myself, I started playing WoW because of one ofthe most important aspects of expanding a game: word of Mouth. To be 100% honest, I was told to try WoW while shooting @ People in COD2. I was meh, I'll give it a shot. Months later, I still play the game every day and have not become bored of it. But not only that, my wife, 4 of my friends and my father (yes my 50+ year old father) have started playing. Why? word of mouth. But Why do they still keep playing? Do you think they have any idea of what the RTS World of Warcraft is? No. Do they have any notion of what Blizzard is? No. They still play the game because of what the game offers. And besides word of mouth, which can only go so far, ( and also the initial hype from "Blizzard" and "Warcraft"title can only go so far) Why did they start playing to begin with? The 3 points this Author wrote about.
I blog for GamingWeez. Do you? Discuss everything MMO related in a community that lets YOU be the blogger. www.GamingWeez.com
I have to agree with Jeremy on a lot of points he has made, I hated EVE online due to the fact it was truely like reading an encyclopedia just to get out of the hanger he is correct "Easy to learn, hard to master" makes sense to me. I still hate WoW thou easy to learn boring as hell.
I also agree with the statement that graphics make a huge difference to my desire to play. If it looks like crap it is crap. WoW looks like a cartoon I did not like its graphics however I loved the Lineage 2 graphic set and still play to this day, so graphics are important.
About content this is the catch 22 a game without content, Hmmmm. ie D&D Online sounded so sweet looked so good, but had only on e month of content peeps played finished and canceled their accounts never to return so content is clearly important. but I did not feel like doing quests all day long in order to level up and hated that approach used in WoW.
I still do not like WoW and am not sure Jeremy used it well enough in his article to benefit his points. I think there are several games that do things right. I cant argue WoW is truly the 600 lbs gorilla in the room when it comes to MMOs, but it's not a game for everyone. So to use WoW in every example does indeed make Starley sound like a fanboy.
treadmill, but you get fat instead of skinny. It amazes me that
it holds anybody's interest for long. I guess it may be good for
kids who need something simple, but for any serious gamer, it is
extremely deficient.
Lheks and Paks, I couldnt agree more.
TO the above poster and Star Wars Galaxies fans, I feel for how you got treated and how badly Sony handled so many things.
But to be completely honest I hated the UI of SWG. I hated the combat style. I didnt like the PvP. It was just too simple imo. I shoot at you and you shoot at me and what........?? we just see who falls first?? I know Im over simplifying it, but it was too simple.
I know its the popular thing to HATE WoW but I like WoW. Sure Ive quit once. And there are times I curse the game. But the UI is great. The combat style is great. I know many people have claimed its just jumping around and button mashing. Obviously those people dont understand the purpose jumping around serves.
One thing you said I really take exception with and Im not a huge Star Wars fan. " SWG actually implemented lots of things better than any other game; yet it never enjoyed a comparable customer base."
Please expound on that for me. Especially the "IMPLEMENTED LOTS OF THINGS BETTER".
As a side note to WoW, when I had too much time to play the game it got boring really quickly. Everything is farming. Whether its farming honor for rank, farming MC for gear or farming rep for gear and goodies. HOWEVER, now that I have less time and I just pvp with a couple friends for a hour a so a night, its a much more enjoyable.
Somehow I get the feeling that WoW wouldnt have so much "hate" directed towards it if there were BETTER games to play. Then when people said "ZOMG WoW is GREAT", they would be met with... "Thats your opinion, but IM ENJOYING x%4 game".
No, it's not the Blizzarard name or the Warcraft name that made WoW a super-star! The *only* Blizz game I ever played in depth was Diablo I. About as far as one can get from MMORPG. In WoW, I play 1st person mode all the time; I like the immersion. I do NOT play RTS games, not Starcraft, not OvH, not any of the Warcraft incarnations. None of it.
When Blizz does a Starcraft MMORPG, I will buy it and play it. Not because I ever loved Starcraft, I didn't. I think all RTS games are pretty boring. I will buy and play because it is likely to be FUN !
The companies that don't wake up to what the consumer wants are going to end up in the same place the US auto companies were at in the '70s and the place they are headed to now : bankruptcy and failure.
What would you like to bet that V:SoH is another 'hard' EQ1 with drastic Death Penalties, Slow Leveling, Forced Grouping, and so forth? And what would you like to bet that Mythic's WAR is going to be a fast paced, fun game where it is easy on the players at the start and ramps in commitment as one plays longer? And which do you think will gain the subscriber base over the long haul?
I think it is sad that companies fail to see the light, and listen to Elitist players who have nothing else to do 24/7 but play games and Troll the boards. Those companies are going to pay the price, as will the customers who trusted them.
WoW does have a huge community, and although there are many less than pleasent people around, you can generally find some like-minded people with whom to quest. And it does run really well. I do not have great hardware, but I do have decent hardware, and I have spent way too much time tweaking the graphics settings in CoX to get it above 4fps.
EVE was difficult to master and took time, but it is very open-ended and you could customize your character and skills in so many ways, and the real-time training made it very nice to progress for a casual player. Even being a casual player for less than a year, I ended up with two battleships a battlecruiser and a host of cruisers and frigates. And the EVE community is really pretty darn good.
For difficulty though, I would put AO up against EVE any day. This buff from this class, this one from that, now I put in my implant, then I can put in this other implant, then swap out the first implant, then I can put on my armor, swap implant and now equip my gun. I even had Excel charts to use with Nano Nanny to figure out how I could possibly get that QL132 Manex equiped.
The other point I wanted to make echos a previous post or two as well as the article. Make it fun and easy right away. The problem with say LineageII is that yes, it may be a great game once you hit level 20, but killing 100 frogs to get 3 drops and then killing 100 large frogs to get 10 drops repeatedly for 20 levels is really boring. Not that the typical "fetch me a pail" then go talk to the person 10 feet away is great, but there is some variety in the quests available in WoW. Also, questing in WoW and CoX gives you story arcs. Which can actually progress the plot for that character. And that can be fun to go through the story arc and see where it leads.
Jeremy Starley ,
How many successful MMO's have you developed?
What are your qualifications that makes what you say "gold"?
Some interesting opinions, but I've seen some MMO's out there that match your criteria but are not 600lb gorillas.
your arguement is so persuasive, so filled with knowledge and insight. You back up your argument very articulately, with suggestions of improvements and raising examples to glorify your position....oh wait, you didn't
This guy is writing an editorial for mmorpg.com? This is the agenda MMORPG.com want to pin their flag to?
Lets paraphrase what he says...
He wants the games to be;
Moron. You are exactly everything thats wrong with this hobby and why it's getting flushed down the pan in the pursuit of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
I mean... how dare a game of EvE's quality dare have a learning curve of longer then 5 minutes? I mean, seriously... Whos ever gonna play a game they actually have to learn? Crazy.
Welcome to the new world of fast food sugary MMO porn that caters to the eight year old and his casual gamer dad who is only allowed to play for an hour a week by his wife. Both of whom have a sh*t two year out of date PC.
Almost time to walk away from MMORPGs I think and leave them to the children and idiots.
I'm serious gamer as I've been last 25 years. I'm hardly a kid anymore, so try harder.
Wow is good game. Period.
Your definition of good MMORPG is propably different from mine. The MMO I've played for longest time is NationStates. There's player created content for you. And serious gaming.
I'm serious gamer, but I don't want serious gaming. I play to have fun.
Could the name have brought INITIAL hype and playerbase? Absolutely. As soon as the game came out, Im sure one of the major factors was Blizzard and the Warcraft name. However, that nearly is not enough to KEEP players playing 2 years later. The game is just fun to play, and is a GOOD game. Period. Not more can really be said.
I have to aggree with this comment. Lets face it folks. If the game was not fun i dont think you would have 7 million subscribers.
Whether any one individual thinks the game is good or bad. The Fact still stands that WOW is the Most popular, and profitable MMO todate period.
Faranthil Tanathalos
EverQuest 1 - Ranger
Star Wars Galaxies - Master Ranger
Everquest2 - Ranger WarhammerOnline - Shadow Warrior
WOW - Hunter
That's right I like bows and arrows.
Stop the debate about WoW being good or bad kids. The point is that it is hugely popular and the arguement should be what makes it so, instead of fanbois and hatahs just throwing poop at eachother.
It's better be hated for who you are, than loved for who you aren't.
I think this guy has some sort of reading disability or, as with most editorialists, only likes to pick and choose what best supports his own arguement even if it only uses part of a sentence. Koster has said MANY times that what killed swg was in-fact the lack of content additions to the game. Hell the first expansion was somethign that had been promised from the get go as a launch feature and the final 2 were nothing more than marketing ploys to help generate interest in 2 very crappy star wars movies. (actually imo the only good star wars movie was V: Empire Strikes back but thats another argument for another time). Star Wars Galaxies, apart from death watch bunker and a couple very short lived "events", has had no content added to the game at all. In fact I would go so far to say that the introduction of the Hologrind then the Village was SOE's way to mask the fact that they didnt have a clue what to add into the huge game world of swg.
Graphics? What pc games dont have option sliders to change the graphics to be more suitable to a person's rig? This is PCGaming, not console gaming. Sure if you turn everything down like a freakin moron then yes it will look like poop. Option sliders allow people to make fine tuning adjustments, maybe the editorial writer doesnt have the patience it takes to fine tune their system and the games he plays? If so GTFO and leave pc's to people who know wtf they are doing. Its people like the editorialist that piss me off in mmos thinking that everyone around them should hold thier hand and provide them with free tech support so they can get their game running. People can swap in a new vid card on a whim or slap in a stick or two of memory. If ya cant then ya got no business on a pc. The pcgaming community is the vanguard of gamers. Just because someone can hop on daddy's office computer doesnt mean that developers should not give us the graphics and gameplay that we expect. I do not want to play with grandpa, I do not want to play with the snot nosed little prepubuscent that thinks its cool to talk l1k3 dey r l337. My rig is 4 years old and there isnt a game out there that I don't play at 1600x1200 with very appealing graphics (including a fairly good number of games in closed beta).
Yes I am ranting a bit, but this dumbing down of everything will be the much heralded death of pcgaming. Most of the pcgaming crowd have the technical know how and patience in order to be able to play games and enjoy them. Individuals like the writer of the editorial and most of the people I came across in my time in wow are people that would have killed themselves a decade or so ago when we had to write our own batch files to get games to even run. Just because windows makes pc's look much simpler they aren't. They are first and foremost tools, and tools in the hands of the uninformed are dangerous.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
I understand the article. WoW is a game that I tried really hard to stay with. I loved the graphics. I loved the ease of play. The limits put in the game to make it a grind made me leave the game. I got tired of no one wanting to do quests with me but was wanting me to do raids. I got tired of trying to complete all the quests (because I love the stories and reading them) but spending hours of time to complete 2 and advance a couple of more to turn around and go back to where I got the 2 I completed to pick up 2 more. The limitations that made up the time sinks in my mind ruined my fun.
I have to say that I understand why WoW is the 600lb Gorilla. I would suggest it to people if they wanted something simple. I would warn them of what I did not like. I would not suggest EVE unless I knew the person was hard core. WoW and CoH is the two I would suggest to most people. I might also suggest Guild Wars. At the moment, there is no MMOs that can really hold my attention (EVE could but I don't have the time necessary for it
) and I am hoping to find something in the new ones that are on the horizon. Reading about the story in the Chronicles of the Spellborn and Vanguard really gives me hope. I am an explorer type and also love finding all the stories. I really hope that some of the new games really have some of the suggestions here that I have to agree with. I want to see something come out and compete with WoW. Does not mean I would be playing the game that did.
BOLLOCKS! WoW has attracted more first time gamers to the market than any other game in existance. You can't tell me that first time gamers are Blizzard/Warcraft fanbois; they have no prior knowledge of the Warcraft at all. It's success lies in the fact that it IS and easy game to play. It has solid gameplay. It is easy for first time gamers to play and doesn't punish failure ... it's meant to be a game and meant to be fun to play.
I think this editorial pretty much hits the mark.
That said, there are many games that don't want to be 600lb gorillas. There are still several niche's for other games to exploit ... the hardcore gamers who sneer at WoW simplicity, the gamers who love the challenge of complex gameplay, the gamers who are sick of the fantasy genre. the gamers that value community over content, the gamers who want the bloodlust of full-on PvP, the gamers who WANT the sandbox and create their own content. And there is nothing wrong with that. EQ2, EVE, City of Heroes/Villians, Anarchy Online, Ultima Online, Darkfall (when we see it), Ryzom Ring and even Neverwinter Nights.
There is plenty of room in the market for all games. Some gamers will not go for the popular game because it doesn't appeal to them. They would rather go for the game that occupies THEIR niche. And this is where I think the music anaolgy is appropriate. You have "popular commercial music" ... and then there is classical, adult alternative, heavy metal, punk, goth rock. There is a musical genre that will appeal to all niche groups. And then there's the masses.
That's my 2c anyway.
BOLLOCKS! WoW has attracted more first time gamers to the market than any other game in existance. You can't tell me that first time gamers are Blizzard/Warcraft fanbois; they have no prior knowledge of the Warcraft at all. It's success lies in the fact that it IS and easy game to play. It has solid gameplay. It is easy for first time gamers to play and doesn't punish failure ... it's meant to be a game and meant to be fun to play.
I think this editorial pretty much hits the mark.
That said, there are many games that don't want to be 600lb gorillas. There are still several niche's for other games to exploit ... the hardcore gamers who sneer at WoW simplicity, the gamers who love the challenge of complex gameplay, the gamers who are sick of the fantasy genre. the gamers that value community over content, the gamers who want the bloodlust of full-on PvP, the gamers who WANT the sandbox and create their own content. And there is nothing wrong with that. EQ2, EVE, City of Heroes/Villians, Anarchy Online, Ultima Online, Darkfall (when we see it), Ryzom Ring and even Neverwinter Nights.
There is plenty of room in the market for all games. Some gamers will not go for the popular game because it doesn't appeal to them. They would rather go for the game that occupies THEIR niche. And this is where I think the music anaolgy is appropriate. You have "popular commercial music" ... and then there is classical, adult alternative, heavy metal, punk, goth rock. There is a musical genre that will appeal to all niche groups. And then there's the masses.
That's my 2c anyway.
CoH/V had way more content then WoW unless you define things to grind as content. There are problems with CoH/V's content like lack of origional art and too much being expressed through text but in CoH you are constantly taking missions with a coherent storyline to them. In WoW I find myself either grinding boars to get xp or grinding boars to get their tusks to hand them over to a guy who will give me money and xp. I'll admit CoH/V are nich games because of their focos on text based lore and instancing but saying that WoW has more content CoH is a flat out lie.
I'm not going to attack your comparisan to music because I'm nice. But I could if I wanted to...way too easily too.
Have another read of my post. I didn't say COH had less content at all.
And why would I "lie"? Such as strange choice of word for who should be an intellectual discussion.
Have another read of my post. I didn't say COH had less content at all.
And why would I "lie"? Such as strange choice of word for who should be an intellectual discussion.
"harcore gamers...the value community over content"-you, one post ago.
Serious gamers? You mean the go as fast as possible to max level and then whine there is no content or the people that play every way, class, race possible to enjoy everything there is?
Sigil has already promised the game would be the biggest treadmill ever made.
EVE is not far from being that now. EVE in most peoples books that have tried it is a glorified Earth & Beyond.
The asian games that are currently being tranformed for US and Euro play will take a bite out of most of the big names getting ready to launch.
SUN, CABAL and games of these types that incorporate western styles with what is working in Asia will land the most players when they come out. Throw in the games being done by the former Blizzard crew in the 4 companies they split off and made and maybe the Star Trek game by Perpetual Ent. and you will see what direction games are taking.
When WoW eventually dies there will not be another game to have the subsciption base like it has now. There are far to many options coming out that will split the market up into to many small sections for it to happen.
Taking your line of logic, I cannot write about MMORPGs because I haven't developed one. (Never mind all those who have developed one and are still clueless as to why it failed)
Fine. But, since I cannot write about MMORPGs - having never developed one myself - you cannot comment about editorials, having never been published yourself. Your history teacher? He can't teach history, since he wasn't there. Vote? Well, you can't, because you obviously don't know squat about politics, what with you not being a politician and all. Don't like your meal? Well, keep your trap shut; you're not a chef in a professional kitchen, so your opinion on the food he made is invalid. Oh, you also can't say anything about the music, since you're not a musician.
You don't need to do the thing to form an opinion on it. You don't need to be a professional in order to do something, and if you need success in a subject in order to analyze it - then by God, our whole world should implode any second now since we are obviously defying nature with our very existance.
Agent_X7 AKA J Star
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