Originally posted by Nierro Am I the only one that thought that was actually about a 600lb gorilla..?
No, but our editor originally thought it was about a 600 lbs gorilla.
Please don't fire me, Dana.
Agent_X7 AKA J Star [/URL] Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com or its management.
WoW may be the 600 lb gorilla but it gets boring in a hurry. I played WoW for less than 2 months, played it ONLY after NGE hit, and I played SWG for around 2 years total and would have played it a lot longer if SOE hadn't made such a huge mistake by totally changing the game they had in order to chase after the WoW numbers. I hope the wanna-be-WoW-clones ends soon. I'm still hoping for a MMO that compares to what pre-cu was.
I aggree with the three rules. Good article that hit's the point.
But finally a small note to all those people that missed it:
The article is not about how good WoW is in terms of mmorpg hardcore/community/roleplay experience, it's about success in the game markert. And WoW is successful. That's a fact.
And most of the people miss another point: it's not successful because it's Warcraft (who on earth knows warcraft, this is rubish). Maybe it's successful because of the name Blizzard, but I don't think this is so important at all (maybe it helped them to speed up customer aquisition and of course they had much larger funds for marketing than a garage company had).
I think there should be a fourth rule:
It's quality!!! I never saw an online game before that had been that perfect in means of stablity, lag, smooth animations, etc. . And following the rule that you will tell 1 friend about a good game but 10 to save them from the bad guy's, Blizzard build up a large audience and simply didn't disapoint them.
Just look at many other games like EQ2, DNL, DDO, ... . These companies took the wrong way and regardless how much they spend to fix bugs, add content, etc. - if player have left, they have left !!!!
Originally posted by Sanctus_Mors Jeremy Starley , How many successful MMO's have you developed?
Normally I hold my tongue, as everyone is entitled to their opinions. (Even those rude people who choose to personally attack someone over an article.) However, this is one of the most ignorant things I have ever read, and you'd be surprised by the number of people who think this is a valid argument.
Taking your line of logic, I cannot write about MMORPGs because I haven't developed one. (Never mind all those who have developed one and are still clueless as to why it failed)
Fine. But, since I cannot write about MMORPGs - having never developed one myself - you cannot comment about editorials, having never been published yourself. Your history teacher? He can't teach history, since he wasn't there. Vote? Well, you can't, because you obviously don't know squat about politics, what with you not being a politician and all. Don't like your meal? Well, keep your trap shut; you're not a chef in a professional kitchen, so your opinion on the food he made is invalid. Oh, you also can't say anything about the music, since you're not a musician.
You don't need to do the thing to form an opinion on it. You don't need to be a professional in order to do something, and if you need success in a subject in order to analyze it - then by God, our whole world should implode any second now since we are obviously defying nature with our very existance.
Opinions and observations are one thing, but Professional insight does add credability to an argument. You failed to quote my entire inquiry. I want to know what insight that gives weight to his argument. Anyone could write what makes a blockbuster, but those who have insight or have been in the industry will hold more weight.
A history teacher doesn't have to be there to be able to teach history, but he or she has gone through the training.
Without the backing from training/education or actually doing it yourself, the weight of your argument is less then say Richard Garrott, or Sid Meyers for games or Alan Greenspan when it comes to finance. I would take the advice that any gives with a grain of salt, without knowing what training/education/or expierience they have had.
Would you take my advice how to troubleshoot a computer problem? From these forums, you probably would not, you don't know me from Adam. I could be talking out of my hat, giving you bad advice or having you make the problem even worse. Now if I bring to you the fact that I've had years of experience troubleshooting people and that I can back that up with certificates and from co-workers, you would be more inclined to take my word over some complete stranger.
Breaking success into 3 simple things is one thing, but that a broad generalization. Many games seem to follow these "laws" but are not considered a 600 lb gorrilla.
Give me the time and ambition I could come up with my own observations on how to run a successful MMO. But my observations would only be from a players perspective. I don't have the insight a developer has.
I'd rather deal with an educated guess then an uninformed opinion
your arguement is so persuasive, so filled with knowledge and insight. You back up your argument very articulately, with suggestions of improvements and raising examples to glorify your position....oh wait, you didn't
Originally posted by Stirge Brad McQuaid and everyone at Sigil should read this, before it's too late.
Why? Their focus is on a completely different playerbase. Actually i think they've already been giving in too much to the WoW type of player.
Just to pick random numbers, 200000 is more than 20000. That is why they need to cater to the WOW type of players. If they just want to cater to a niche market, A small number of players is all they will have. If they cater to the masses they will have more users. It is just smart business.
Originally posted by Stirge Brad McQuaid and everyone at Sigil should read this, before it's too late.
Why? Their focus is on a completely different playerbase. Actually i think they've already been giving in too much to the WoW type of player.
Just to pick random numbers, 200000 is more than 20000. That is why they need to cater to the WOW type of players. If they just want to cater to a niche market, A small number of players is all they will have. If they cater to the masses they will have more users. It is just smart business.
Why don't you just sod off with your 'everything must be like WoW' to succeed drivel.
The bottom line 600lb gorrillas kill creativity, diversity, and choice alongside challange, mature communitys, and intellectual development.
MMORPGs are as much about art as science, and it is very possible to be extremely successful with 200,000 - 500,000 subs. If these numbers make a game 'niche', then so be it. This may not make you the 'best' in some peoples eyes (the morons who think bigger means better and bleet sheep like as they follow the flock from one shiny new spoon fed cartoon game for 8 year olds to the next), but it wll leave the developer free to create the game he dreams of making. More power to them for that.
It is possible to successful on your own terms and maintain integrity. It is possible to be successful on your own terms and not sell out to the idiots and children to turn a buck. Look at a game like EvE... still here after all this time and still profitable while fulfilling it's own vision. Noone can call that a 'failiure'. It's more then about 'good business'.
You can make the game you want to make AND make a decent amount of money without selling out.
I'm simply fed up with the lazy idiots who buy all that cr*p in the mainstream music charts and fill the cinemas and TV channels with lowest common denominator garbage, and simply put I don't want them here in this hobby dictating that all MMORPGs have to follow the same route.
Taken as a general read, this editoral is a thing of shame. Coming from a 'respected' MMORPG website it is actually insulting.
Originally posted by Stirge Brad McQuaid and everyone at Sigil should read this, before it's too late.
Why? Their focus is on a completely different playerbase. Actually i think they've already been giving in too much to the WoW type of player.
Just to pick random numbers, 200000 is more than 20000. That is why they need to cater to the WOW type of players. If they just want to cater to a niche market, A small number of players is all they will have. If they cater to the masses they will have more users. It is just smart business.
Why don't you just sod off with your 'everything must be like WoW' to succeed drivel.
The bottom line 600lb gorrillas kill creativity, diversity, and choice alongside challange, mature communitys, and intellectual development.
MMORPGs are as much about art as science, and it is very possible to be extremely successful with 200,000 - 500,000 subs. If these numbers make a game 'niche', then so be it. This may not make you the 'best' in some peoples eyes (the morons who think bigger means better and bleet sheep like as they follow the flock from one shiny new spoon fed cartoon game for 8 year olds to the next), but it wll leave the developer free to create the game he dreams of making. More power to them for that.
It is possible to successful on your own terms and maintain integrity. It is possible to be successful on your own terms and not sell out to the idiots and children to turn a buck. Look at a game like EvE... still here after all this time and still profitable while fulfilling it's own vision. Noone can call that a 'failiure'. It's more then about 'good business'.
You can make the game you want to make AND make a decent amount of money without selling out.
I'm simply fed up with the lazy idiots who buy all that cr*p in the mainstream music charts and fill the cinemas and TV channels with lowest common denominator garbage, and simply put I don't want them here in this hobby dictating that all MMORPGs have to follow the same route.
Taken as a general read, this editoral is a thing of shame. Coming from a 'respected' MMORPG website it is actually insulting.
Every hobby has its snobs. MMORPGs are no different. Me? I'd rather enjoy my hobby rather than work like a slave at it.
Agent_X7 AKA J Star [/URL] Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com or its management.
Originally posted by Stirge Brad McQuaid and everyone at Sigil should read this, before it's too late.
Why? Their focus is on a completely different playerbase. Actually i think they've already been giving in too much to the WoW type of player.
Just to pick random numbers, 200000 is more than 20000. That is why they need to cater to the WOW type of players. If they just want to cater to a niche market, A small number of players is all they will have. If they cater to the masses they will have more users. It is just smart business.
Why don't you just sod off with your 'everything must be like WoW' to succeed drivel.
The bottom line 600lb gorrillas kill creativity, diversity, and choice alongside challange, mature communitys, and intellectual development.
MMORPGs are as much about art as science, and it is very possible to be extremely successful with 200,000 - 500,000 subs. If these numbers make a game 'niche', then so be it. This may not make you the 'best' in some peoples eyes (the morons who think bigger means better and bleet sheep like as they follow the flock from one shiny new spoon fed cartoon game for 8 year olds to the next), but it wll leave the developer free to create the game he dreams of making. More power to them for that.
It is possible to successful on your own terms and maintain integrity. It is possible to be successful on your own terms and not sell out to the idiots and children to turn a buck. Look at a game like EvE... still here after all this time and still profitable while fulfilling it's own vision. Noone can call that a 'failiure'. It's more then about 'good business'.
You can make the game you want to make AND make a decent amount of money without selling out.
I'm simply fed up with the lazy idiots who buy all that cr*p in the mainstream music charts and fill the cinemas and TV channels with lowest common denominator garbage, and simply put I don't want them here in this hobby dictating that all MMORPGs have to follow the same route.
Taken as a general read, this editoral is a thing of shame. Coming from a 'respected' MMORPG website it is actually insulting.
Every hobby has its snobs. MMORPGs are no different. Me? I'd rather enjoy my hobby rather than work like a slave at it.
What is 'snobbish' about expecting to be offered games that challenge me to think, inspire me with new ideas, and allow me to meet people that want the same?
What is a 'slave' in all this?
We both want to play games, I just want to play ones that don't assume I'm 8 years old. I'm sorry you don't.
Originally posted by danmax67 Is this guy kidding? WOW is basicly like walking endlessly on a treadmill, but you get fat instead of skinny. It amazes me that it holds anybody's interest for long. I guess it may be good for kids who need something simple, but for any serious gamer, it is extremely deficient.
I'm new to the world of online games and for that reason, I think that I am in a position to speak to the initial premise of the editorial: how to develop a game that attracts a large audience. I am not trying to discuss the merits of WoW or other games. This is about selling software and subscriptions. And I agree with the author.
1 - Easy to use. I was introduced to gaming by my boyfriend. He chose City of Heroes because it was easy to catch on to. I really enjoyed it and played a single character through to level 50.
2 - Content. After hanging at 50 for a while I got bored with CoH. Not a lot to do after you're a 50. I searched for badges and other things like that, but it just wasn't as much fun. So I started CoV. But, in my opinion, it was the same thing only darker. I was still looking for something new and different to do.
So the boyfriend let me start an EQ2 character on his computer. Again, loved it. And soo much to do, so much differing scenery, and the option to gather and craft. Nifty!
But...
3 - Graphics. Everything was great until I loaded the game on my laptop. Even with everything turned completely down, it ran like mud. And, with all setting turned down, it looked like crap. Not fun at all.
My little online gaming experience is an example of how to hook new users in with a fun, attractive product. Though it got boring after level 50, CoH left me feeling good and open to trying more games. My money was still up for grabs.
Will EQ2 get it? I've played for a month on a borrowed system. Still love it, but the loaner has to go back and, as an average working adult with a day job, bills and other responsibilities, it's pretty tough to decide to drop $2,000 for a new computer JUST TO PLAY A GAME when my laptop takes care of all of my other computer needs. I don't want cartoony graphics, but I don't need near video level graphics, either. I have a TV for that.
Will I try another game? Maybe. My initial experiences are positive and (through sites like this and interaction with people in both games) I learned that they can become more complex and interactive, if I'm looking for that. But I'll only buy and subscribe to another game if it can run on my laptop.
And (as stated in the initial editorial) that's the lesson that the developers need to learn. The hardcore gamers out here (and my boyfriend is one of them) will play. This is their hobby, this is how they choose to spend their time and money.
But as far as the corporations are concerned, it's not the hardcore money they are worried about - it will come. It's the casual gamer who will play, enjoy and hopefully forget to cancel their subscription when they take up yoga for New Years'. Those folks can only be captured with a product that is easy to use, entertaining (content), and doesn't require a major financial investment.
PS - my boyfriend has issues with WoW (as many here do) but has said that he would return to WoW if I wanted to play because it will run on my laptop. The scorecard says: WoW +2 subscriptions; EQ2 -2 subscriptions, just because of the graphics...You don't have to be an MBA to figure that out.
Comments
Please don't fire me, Dana.
Agent_X7 AKA J Star
[/URL]
Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com or its management.
I aggree with the three rules. Good article that hit's the point.
But finally a small note to all those people that missed it:
The article is not about how good WoW is in terms of mmorpg hardcore/community/roleplay experience, it's about success in the game markert. And WoW is successful. That's a fact.
And most of the people miss another point: it's not successful because it's Warcraft (who on earth knows warcraft, this is rubish). Maybe it's successful because of the name Blizzard, but I don't think this is so important at all (maybe it helped them to speed up customer aquisition and of course they had much larger funds for marketing than a garage company had).
I think there should be a fourth rule:
It's quality!!! I never saw an online game before that had been that perfect in means of stablity, lag, smooth animations, etc. . And following the rule that you will tell 1 friend about a good game but 10 to save them from the bad guy's, Blizzard build up a large audience and simply didn't disapoint them.
Just look at many other games like EQ2, DNL, DDO, ... . These companies took the wrong way and regardless how much they spend to fix bugs, add content, etc. - if player have left, they have left !!!!
Regards, Sap.
Taking your line of logic, I cannot write about MMORPGs because I haven't developed one. (Never mind all those who have developed one and are still clueless as to why it failed)
Fine. But, since I cannot write about MMORPGs - having never developed one myself - you cannot comment about editorials, having never been published yourself. Your history teacher? He can't teach history, since he wasn't there. Vote? Well, you can't, because you obviously don't know squat about politics, what with you not being a politician and all. Don't like your meal? Well, keep your trap shut; you're not a chef in a professional kitchen, so your opinion on the food he made is invalid. Oh, you also can't say anything about the music, since you're not a musician.
You don't need to do the thing to form an opinion on it. You don't need to be a professional in order to do something, and if you need success in a subject in order to analyze it - then by God, our whole world should implode any second now since we are obviously defying nature with our very existance.
Opinions and observations are one thing, but Professional insight does add credability to an argument. You failed to quote my entire inquiry. I want to know what insight that gives weight to his argument. Anyone could write what makes a blockbuster, but those who have insight or have been in the industry will hold more weight.
A history teacher doesn't have to be there to be able to teach history, but he or she has gone through the training.
Without the backing from training/education or actually doing it yourself, the weight of your argument is less then say Richard Garrott, or Sid Meyers for games or Alan Greenspan when it comes to finance. I would take the advice that any gives with a grain of salt, without knowing what training/education/or expierience they have had.
Would you take my advice how to troubleshoot a computer problem? From these forums, you probably would not, you don't know me from Adam. I could be talking out of my hat, giving you bad advice or having you make the problem even worse. Now if I bring to you the fact that I've had years of experience troubleshooting people and that I can back that up with certificates and from co-workers, you would be more inclined to take my word over some complete stranger.
Breaking success into 3 simple things is one thing, but that a broad generalization. Many games seem to follow these "laws" but are not considered a 600 lb gorrilla.
Give me the time and ambition I could come up with my own observations on how to run a successful MMO. But my observations would only be from a players perspective. I don't have the insight a developer has.
I'd rather deal with an educated guess then an uninformed opinion
your arguement is so persuasive, so filled with knowledge and insight. You back up your argument very articulately, with suggestions of improvements and raising examples to glorify your position....oh wait, you didn't
Why? Their focus is on a completely different playerbase. Actually i think they've already been giving in too much to the WoW type of player.
Just to pick random numbers, 200000 is more than 20000. That is why they need to cater to the WOW type of players. If they just want to cater to a niche market, A small number of players is all they will have. If they cater to the masses they will have more users. It is just smart business.
Why? Their focus is on a completely different playerbase. Actually i think they've already been giving in too much to the WoW type of player.
Just to pick random numbers, 200000 is more than 20000. That is why they need to cater to the WOW type of players. If they just want to cater to a niche market, A small number of players is all they will have. If they cater to the masses they will have more users. It is just smart business.
Why don't you just sod off with your 'everything must be like WoW' to succeed drivel.
The bottom line 600lb gorrillas kill creativity, diversity, and choice alongside challange, mature communitys, and intellectual development.
MMORPGs are as much about art as science, and it is very possible to be extremely successful with 200,000 - 500,000 subs. If these numbers make a game 'niche', then so be it. This may not make you the 'best' in some peoples eyes (the morons who think bigger means better and bleet sheep like as they follow the flock from one shiny new spoon fed cartoon game for 8 year olds to the next), but it wll leave the developer free to create the game he dreams of making. More power to them for that.
It is possible to successful on your own terms and maintain integrity. It is possible to be successful on your own terms and not sell out to the idiots and children to turn a buck. Look at a game like EvE... still here after all this time and still profitable while fulfilling it's own vision. Noone can call that a 'failiure'. It's more then about 'good business'.
You can make the game you want to make AND make a decent amount of money without selling out.
I'm simply fed up with the lazy idiots who buy all that cr*p in the mainstream music charts and fill the cinemas and TV channels with lowest common denominator garbage, and simply put I don't want them here in this hobby dictating that all MMORPGs have to follow the same route.
Taken as a general read, this editoral is a thing of shame. Coming from a 'respected' MMORPG website it is actually insulting.
Me? I'd rather enjoy my hobby rather than work like a slave at it.
Agent_X7 AKA J Star
[/URL]
Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com or its management.
Why? Their focus is on a completely different playerbase. Actually i think they've already been giving in too much to the WoW type of player.
Just to pick random numbers, 200000 is more than 20000. That is why they need to cater to the WOW type of players. If they just want to cater to a niche market, A small number of players is all they will have. If they cater to the masses they will have more users. It is just smart business.
Why don't you just sod off with your 'everything must be like WoW' to succeed drivel.
The bottom line 600lb gorrillas kill creativity, diversity, and choice alongside challange, mature communitys, and intellectual development.
MMORPGs are as much about art as science, and it is very possible to be extremely successful with 200,000 - 500,000 subs. If these numbers make a game 'niche', then so be it. This may not make you the 'best' in some peoples eyes (the morons who think bigger means better and bleet sheep like as they follow the flock from one shiny new spoon fed cartoon game for 8 year olds to the next), but it wll leave the developer free to create the game he dreams of making. More power to them for that.
It is possible to successful on your own terms and maintain integrity. It is possible to be successful on your own terms and not sell out to the idiots and children to turn a buck. Look at a game like EvE... still here after all this time and still profitable while fulfilling it's own vision. Noone can call that a 'failiure'. It's more then about 'good business'.
You can make the game you want to make AND make a decent amount of money without selling out.
I'm simply fed up with the lazy idiots who buy all that cr*p in the mainstream music charts and fill the cinemas and TV channels with lowest common denominator garbage, and simply put I don't want them here in this hobby dictating that all MMORPGs have to follow the same route.
Taken as a general read, this editoral is a thing of shame. Coming from a 'respected' MMORPG website it is actually insulting.
Every hobby has its snobs. MMORPGs are no different.
Me? I'd rather enjoy my hobby rather than work like a slave at it.
What is 'snobbish' about expecting to be offered games that challenge me to think, inspire me with new ideas, and allow me to meet people that want the same?
What is a 'slave' in all this?
We both want to play games, I just want to play ones that don't assume I'm 8 years old. I'm sorry you don't.
Personally, I think we all deserve better.
Serious gamer?!
/sigh
I'm new to the world of online games and for that reason, I think that I am in a position to speak to the initial premise of the editorial: how to develop a game that attracts a large audience. I am not trying to discuss the merits of WoW or other games. This is about selling software and subscriptions. And I agree with the author.
1 - Easy to use. I was introduced to gaming by my boyfriend. He chose City of Heroes because it was easy to catch on to. I really enjoyed it and played a single character through to level 50.
2 - Content. After hanging at 50 for a while I got bored with CoH. Not a lot to do after you're a 50. I searched for badges and other things like that, but it just wasn't as much fun. So I started CoV. But, in my opinion, it was the same thing only darker. I was still looking for something new and different to do.
So the boyfriend let me start an EQ2 character on his computer. Again, loved it. And soo much to do, so much differing scenery, and the option to gather and craft. Nifty!
But...
3 - Graphics. Everything was great until I loaded the game on my laptop. Even with everything turned completely down, it ran like mud. And, with all setting turned down, it looked like crap. Not fun at all.
My little online gaming experience is an example of how to hook new users in with a fun, attractive product. Though it got boring after level 50, CoH left me feeling good and open to trying more games. My money was still up for grabs.
Will EQ2 get it? I've played for a month on a borrowed system. Still love it, but the loaner has to go back and, as an average working adult with a day job, bills and other responsibilities, it's pretty tough to decide to drop $2,000 for a new computer JUST TO PLAY A GAME when my laptop takes care of all of my other computer needs. I don't want cartoony graphics, but I don't need near video level graphics, either. I have a TV for that.
Will I try another game? Maybe. My initial experiences are positive and (through sites like this and interaction with people in both games) I learned that they can become more complex and interactive, if I'm looking for that. But I'll only buy and subscribe to another game if it can run on my laptop.
And (as stated in the initial editorial) that's the lesson that the developers need to learn. The hardcore gamers out here (and my boyfriend is one of them) will play. This is their hobby, this is how they choose to spend their time and money.
But as far as the corporations are concerned, it's not the hardcore money they are worried about - it will come. It's the casual gamer who will play, enjoy and hopefully forget to cancel their subscription when they take up yoga for New Years'. Those folks can only be captured with a product that is easy to use, entertaining (content), and doesn't require a major financial investment.
PS - my boyfriend has issues with WoW (as many here do) but has said that he would return to WoW if I wanted to play because it will run on my laptop. The scorecard says: WoW +2 subscriptions; EQ2 -2 subscriptions, just because of the graphics...You don't have to be an MBA to figure that out.