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Easy way to control Alpha Jedi in a SWG MMO
Zaush
Member Posts: 371
IMHO the quest to become Jedi became the major content of the game for most people during the hologrind era, and evem more so during the village. Becoming Jedi should be removed as content in the game, But not Jedi and not as an alpha class.
Simple solution, make a sever cap for Jedi at each level, and make it a % of the total population of the sever, say around 6%, 1% Master, 2% Knight, and 3% Jedi.
Institute perma death on Knight and above, and make master perma overt to any and everyone in game regardless of faction. Make them extremely tough however, with strong mind trick abilities to be able to hide amoung the masses.
Make unlocking a FS slot a back end "lottery" process. There is nothing an individual can do to become FS, or unlock FS, it is just luck. If and when your FS/Jedi toon dies, you could either keep the slot as a regular toon, or drop it and go back into the lottery process. As toons die, slots open up for new players.
Jedi should be powerful, should be rare, and should be very tough to play. This should weed out the powergamers who play Jedi as a noverlty, as opposed to serious Star Wars fans who hold the position of Jedi to a higher standard.
Comments
I agree it would have been handled better. As much as perma death was a bummer it was the necessary evil for balance. But in all honesty hardcore rule sets have no business in any LEC title, so Lucas Arts believes.
I agree, it's to bad no one figured that out back then. I like this idea. It would be like a surprise, all of a sudden you find you have a conection to the force. If you died it would suck but hey, I guess you got your turn.
The village was actually a good idea, as it did remove people from professions who didn't really want to play them but were grinding for Jedi.
You can have an alpha class just fine if you remove them from regular PvP. Simply put, have Jedi permadeath (or severe skill loss) consequences for participating in regular PvP, but none for Jedi vs Jedi PvP.
This debate is why they removed it from alpha I guess. They just couldnt come up with good way to keep Jedi implemented in the game as an alpha class, or rather LEC didnt like the proposals for it. This is where I think LEC takes the blame for some of this. Anyone else remember back when Tiggs said they submitted a new FRS to LEC for approval during the cu since the first one was broke due to fight clubbing? I bet she didnt lie about that, I bet some of the devs really did do this (SOE has too many eggs in one basket, known fact) But it just got scrapped and they went with the NGE, maybe even just to buy time for a better system, maybe not. The rule sets where kinda hardcore for an almost G rated SW game and people complained about the oppressive and almost intimidating nature of the whole thing. No doubt and it was most likely to much for LEC.
Remember when Haden Blackman said that they wanted to make Jedi powerful like you saw in the movies? He said they could have balanced them against all the other professions in the game but they would be dumbed down and not really representative of the powerful Jedi people thought of from the movies and people might not have as much fun playing them as they like. He was right about that. Even some of the people who were excited about it being a starter profession at the start complain about this.
I think it could have worked, and I bet another game company will come along and prove this very soon.
You nailed on the head for me, but not in the way you meant...
Force powers are in almost EVERY SW game, so it's an expectation & Necessary Evil. That said, It shouldn't have been Jedi, but instead Force Power Skills. Then, it should have been made a game within a game, cranking up the RP level by CRACKING down on ANY public dispays of Force Use. Then, since Jedi had Alt's, they should put logout timer of 1-8 hours when you die as a Jedi, Depending on your Vis LVL.
Perma Death won't work. To many people would become to angry loosing all of their work, and a beloved toon. Considering how easy it is to LD at a bad time, there just wouldn't be a fair way to do it.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
I believe permadeath was very harsh, but I also believe for that reason that it should have remained. The largest problem with permadeth, as mX13 points out, is LD. At the beginning especially, server stability was quite poor, and so permadeth was particuarly nasty.
I advocated the lottery proposals on the official boards. It's not the most elegant solution, but it would have really been the only way to go. All of the major problems raised by opponents of the lottery proposals were solveable (other than the obvious problem that the lottery solution itself feels too contrived).
SWG Team Mtg.
How dare you contemplate the thought of those who unlocked (in the days) actually log into their mains/alts to "play" the game. A suggestion as such would have caused for so much turmoil when somebody would point out Pre-NGE that all who unlock have the second character to play the game with when discussing how to curb the Jedi sprawl (and chastised if they had a Jedi as well). It's the inherent problem of alpha classes that are "awarded" based upon purported "work" for a game and always tears apart the community.
The above aside there were countless ways that SOE/LEC could have balanced out to allow for whatever build they'd like; however, that would have required both houses to be open to customer input as well as not following the WoW carrot.
There's a way. It's simple, and butt ugly. Your Jedi slot, once you get it, is put on a timer. You can dress it up if you want, and insert a cut scene where Vader hunts your toon, whatever you like. But unless you force that rotation the lottery will never work. This would be on top of Jedi visability ( or saber tef system, take your pick), so that people still are discouraged from being reckless when they unlock.
Like I said, it's not pretty. But in combination with a lottery, it would solve the two biggest problems:
SWG Team Mtg.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
- Rare (Random)
- Anyone can attack you if you use ANY force power of pull a lightsaber.
- Permiadeath.
Problem solved.----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
It WAS NOT the original design, holos and the hologrind were added by devlopers AFTER the OG people were moved to somthing elese.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
This is funny.
Obriak saying how Jedi was easy as he was not one...
Again alot of (I know nothing about it but heard crap)
I can safey say that the pre-9 era was not easy, because of funds, tefs, risks, deaths, loss and the mere fact it was unknown how to play.
We did not always have a forum, we had no idea what visibility even meant and we had sabers that would blow up if you happen to crit fail on them while upgrading them.
Trust me, Tefs and the mere idea of gank teams being able to be in the 20s was enough.
(This does not even include the grind) --- TO GET TO JEDI.
Somehow people think they know but did not do it and "watched" assuming they knew...I like that. I watch people get 6 Master degrees, however I do not know what they do.
What should have happend was simply making it harder, simple as that... instead of making it easier to gain subs.
TEFs, perma death, if anything skill loss was great. You had to respect the class and the toon, because it was a glass cannon from Hell.
I unlocked around pub 6 -- it was not easy, comparing it to anything now is a joke though thats for sure.
Now... THIS is not Jedi, this is a joke and insult to the class it once was really. We went from somthing being respected into somthing spit on so fast due to SOE bastardizing it over and over.
It's really sad how we went from being proud to be one to being one with a pole arm or some crap.
Jedi was fine in the first system. We had no terrain nego, Defenses nothing... We had armor, tefs, power but with major risks.
It should have stayed like that with some minor changes... armor, some specials maybe content.
Jedi was fine with the risk vs reward system, people like to claim it did not work... well it did. BUT people needed to UNDERSTAND it vs just assume what people thought.
Instead every single person thought that they SHOULD be able to solo Jedi all day long and kill them with ease.
This is where the problem started... simply put -- ego. Myself, I wanted to be left alone.. take the risks of the class and do what I had to. I did not go looking for trouble... if it came I was ready... TEFs really made this system work. We hid....for months...days, you did not see 100 Jedi dueling all the time because we could die and lose XP or a life for that matter -- or skill later on.
I still the Skill loss box, over 3 deaths per 7 or so days was the best. Tefs, visibility as well.
BUT none of this fits the easy game of the NGE... they dummied the game down, so the last thing they can do is make Jedi complex... lol not when every single person has one already and or is now a gimic for the NGE.
It's sad though, it really was special for alot of us to unlock and earn one.
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
It WAS NOT the original design, holos and the hologrind were added by devlopers AFTER the OG people were moved to somthing elese.
Well I think the profession grind was the original design, they just wern't going to tell anyone about it. It as a "secret" but then Holocrons came about, the secret was revealed, and thus started the hologrind era. Had they just kept it secret it may have been ok.
1. It was completely random. Getting the 5 professions correct for an unlock without KNOWING THE SYSTEM was like hitting the lottery. Picking 5 out of 30? And completely mastering them in a system that actually encourages dabbling? I know once the holos started telling me my professions, I'd have NEVER become a Jedi for any reason. I'd have been CLOSE, but I'd have never mastered architect for any reason whatsoever... thus I'd be another happy mundane.
2. Perma death / Skill loss
3. Saber TEF
Jedi would have been rare, secretive, and amazingly fit into continuity.
Man I miss those days. ALL of that was brilliant. Too bad marketing got in the way.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
I think the village idea was much better than the holo grind (I did both). I like the skill loss idea (not just xp loss) and saber TEF.
For death there should always be punishment for a jedi it should have been much more that other classes. Why, well because it was a tough life being a jedi and that's enough reason.
The real problem with jedi in SWG was there was no jedi content. There should have been things were there just for jedi. There were after all BH terminals if there had been more for a jedi to do there would not have been as many stand outside the starport in cities all across the galaxy. I remember having my jedi on mustafar the day before they anounce the NGE, by no means was it jedi only content but you got to fight ncp with light sabers. It was great. The few days before they announce the nge was the most fun I had in SWG since well before the CU.
Anyway I guess none of this really matters I just gave the 21 day trial a look and I assure you the game is nothing like it once was so jedi doesn't matter anymore our game has been dead for while.
I don't claim to be right, I'm just posting.
There were merits to the first Jedi system, but there were also pitfalls.
A virtue: The TEF/permideath system was considered too hard, and very frustrating - to which my response is "working as intended". The biggest pitfall: eventually people would have noticed all the players making Jedi are the ones running through the professions; next thing you know we're back to mass profession grinding.
The first system might have kept Jedi rarer, but it wouldn't have stopped the game from turning into SWG - an empire grinding.
SWG Team Mtg.