I think that some lvl of ganking is good actually. Gives a reason to lvl up and take ravenge with a group of angry ppl with high lvl crafted items, and after you pwned his ass, you can dance, laught and become a ganker yourself. A ganker gankers is a ganker anyway.
Originally posted by Syloc Although I love the ganking, that kind of play did have severe limitations. Not that it got boring because, let's face it, the private cussing messages were by far worth the trouble of hunting the carebear down... but it degraded the game. People started to quit, there really wasn't any point. Hell if it wasn't me, it would have been someone else hunting them down. But in all honesty, Carebears give more than just mindless fodder. Nullapex goes on the right point that it somewhat ruins the game. I've always felt that PvP ALONE can't make a game because the game devolves into a first person shooter/ xbox game. The MMO, however flawed it might be, needs that pve aspect to keep it in the "epic" feel. God knows all the developers out there agree with this sentiment, prefering to go the route of EQ clone 26 released in November and EQ clone 100 released in January. -Syloc of Shadowbane
PSILOK You left daoc to play shadowbane??....??...??
Thats like giving up a ferrari to drive a pinto. BUT THE PINTO IS SO MUCH MORE CHALLENGING TO DRIVE!!
Originally posted by Syloc I said MMOs need both and that the ganker ideal alone can't sustain a game.
I agree with you on the last part, but not the first part.. PvE players don't need PvP players any more than sheep need wolves, and PvP players should not need PvE players as victims either. I never PvP myself,. but I can respect motives like "thrill of danger" or "challenge" when both sides clearly enjoy it and allow it - but I disagree with your opinion that every good MMO must cater to that specific type of player. PvP is _always_ harmful in a PvE setting.
I dis uh GREE
For starters you make this grand sweeping statement about pvpers not need pve'ers.....and then you admit you dont pvp yourself. Thats like me saying how easy it is to play quarterback in the NFL and then mentioning, "But Ive never played football".
What do pve players do besides craft, farm and raid....since they dont pvp they must SELL there goods to someone right? How much could they sell to there fellow Raiders/Farmers/Crafters? Thats where I would see the NEED coming in. Players who heavily pvp and dont do much else benefit from the crafting that Pve'rs do.
Even in shadowbane, a very heavily pvp influenced game, it takes alot of time to run a city and all its shops. I know some people who dont do much pvp. Instead, for the most part, they run there city. City owners have Clients (pvp'ers) and PvP'ers have somewhere to shop for there goods.
Most PVPers are gankers of some form or another. Even pvpers who say they dont "gank" still do. They use multiple people 2v1, or hacks, third party programs, higher levels, IWIN buttons, higher armor, higher weapons, better classes, better races, etc.. Basically anything and everything they can to gain an advantage of a gauranteed win.
That way they can delude themselves into thinking they are so skilled or better.... Take the advantage away and they will reroll to the next IWN class, game, enviroment. Because lets face it if things were perfectly even then their would only be 1 victor. Which would mean that 99.9% of the other players would have to admit that they suck and the delusion would be over. They will never let that happen to their self esteem. Therefore they gank.
I find there are a very very small group that actually want perfect balance. Even though most say they do, they really only want some advantage.
I agree with you, right up to the last sentance. PvP is not always harmfull in that setting, it isnt however necessarily benificial either.
Even when PvP is entirely consensual, classes have to be balanced for it, dev resources must be diverted to it, and the whole competitive PvP mentality really just adds an unpleasant undercurrent into the community IMO. There's nothing good it can add to a PvE community, but even with perfect separation it's impossible to remove all its harmful effects.
For starters you make this grand sweeping statement about pvpers not need pve'ers...
Please read more carefully, what I said was that PvP players SHOULD not need PvE players eventhough many of them apparently do, as victims. What it meant was that ideally a PvP player should be perfectly happy fighting only other PvP players. Where's the challenge in fighting people who don't fight back?
What do pve players do besides craft, farm and raid....since they dont pvp they must SELL there goods to someone right?
PvE often requires vastly more resources than PvP; potions, armor, weapons etc. that are all used up or degrade in use. I fail to see how you can even imagine that PvP players would be required as some sort of special customer base; every player needs crafted goods regardless if they do PvE or PvP. Also notice that most in-game money often comes from PvE, so PvE customers tend to have much more money.
I havent read all this, so cut me some slack if what i says been said already.
But to me the truth is simple.
A truly good MMO needs ALL players types to be able to pursue their individual playstyle eqaully.A truly good MMO would allow for such in its very design.
Sadly the current crop of DEVs is incapable of realizing this simple point.They are all too tunnel "vision"ed and will pursue that flawed tunnel vision to the worst possible outcome when ever push comes to shove.
SOE proves this in spades.As does the incredibly lack luster subscriber numbers of 90+% of the MMOs out there today.
Originally posted by Brainy Most PVPers are gankers of some form or another. Even pvpers who say they dont "gank" still do. They use multiple people 2v1, or hacks, third party programs, higher levels, IWIN buttons, higher armor, higher weapons, better classes, better races, etc.. Basically anything and everything they can to gain an advantage of a gauranteed win. That way they can delude themselves into thinking they are so skilled or better.... Take the advantage away and they will reroll to the next IWN class, game, enviroment. Because lets face it if things were perfectly even then their would only be 1 victor. Which would mean that 99.9% of the other players would have to admit that they suck and the delusion would be over. They will never let that happen to their self esteem. Therefore they gank. I find there are a very very small group that actually want perfect balance. Even though most say they do, they really only want some advantage.
That's among the worst sterotypes out there. Dont make the mistake of lumping "most" of us in that category.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
Gran Turismo at first seems like a nice game. You start off racing against the AI and having to learn how to master turns and corners to beat that extra second or two of time from the race and it's quite thrilling. But later in the game when car power makes so much of a difference, it all boils down to who has the better equipment. It turns from a racing game into a fast driving sim because the other cars on the road don't matter, or, if they do, they severely overpower yours, so they're equally irrelevant on the road (but not so in the results).
What does this have to do with MMO PvP? I like fair fights. Guild Wars is great in this regard because it's (usually) equal sized and equipped teams slugging it out, and it's skill that makes the difference. In most other MMOs, PvP is about raw numbers ( Zerg! Kekekeke! ) and higher levels/better equipment. Which is why it's called, "ganking" and not "fighting". Sure, it's one thing for fights to not be fair (GW champs vs GW Newbies), but it's something altogether different when one person has 10x (or higher) more HP and does 10x more damage than the other person because he's played the game more, and he can kill the other person. And this is before skill is even factored in. This is not competition. This is not fun. Even if stats aren't a factor, one guy can be in a bigger group than the other. And this is not like an FPS where the one player can dodge, take cover, get headshots, and prevail over a larger crowd. No, he'll be lucky to bring one guy down to half health before he keels over.
When game mechanics are like this, I will certainly favor a carebarish environment. There may be a certain thrill when flirting with death, but it's tons more thrilling when it's not certain death and you can prevail over it.
Originally posted by Mylon Gran Turismo at first seems like a nice game. You start off racing against the AI and having to learn how to master turns and corners to beat that extra second or two of time from the race and it's quite thrilling. But later in the game when car power makes so much of a difference, it all boils down to who has the better equipment. It turns from a racing game into a fast driving sim because the other cars on the road don't matter, or, if they do, they severely overpower yours, so they're equally irrelevant on the road (but not so in the results).
What does this have to do with MMO PvP? I like fair fights. Guild Wars is great in this regard because it's (usually) equal sized and equipped teams slugging it out, and it's skill that makes the difference. In most other MMOs, PvP is about raw numbers ( Zerg! Kekekeke! ) and higher levels/better equipment. Which is why it's called, "ganking" and not "fighting". Sure, it's one thing for fights to not be fair (GW champs vs GW Newbies), but it's something altogether different when one person has 10x (or higher) more HP and does 10x more damage than the other person because he's played the game more, and he can kill the other person. And this is before skill is even factored in. This is not competition. This is not fun. Even if stats aren't a factor, one guy can be in a bigger group than the other. And this is not like an FPS where the one player can dodge, take cover, get headshots, and prevail over a larger crowd. No, he'll be lucky to bring one guy down to half health before he keels over.
When game mechanics are like this, I will certainly favor a carebarish environment. There may be a certain thrill when flirting with death, but it's tons more thrilling when it's not certain death and you can prevail over it.
One intersting thing about GW PvP is the meaning of the word "gank" is altered. In GW it basically only refers to making a quick run at assassinating an unguarded Guild Lord to win at GvG. It is now assoicated with just a sneaky or perhaps "easy" (although its not really easy) tactic. Rather than just crushing people who have no chance.
Comments
PSILOK You left daoc to play shadowbane??....??...??
Thats like giving up a ferrari to drive a pinto. BUT THE PINTO IS SO MUCH MORE CHALLENGING TO DRIVE!!
And yes Im trolling
I dis uh GREE
For starters you make this grand sweeping statement about pvpers not need pve'ers.....and then you admit you dont pvp yourself. Thats like me saying how easy it is to play quarterback in the NFL and then mentioning, "But Ive never played football".
What do pve players do besides craft, farm and raid....since they dont pvp they must SELL there goods to someone right? How much could they sell to there fellow Raiders/Farmers/Crafters? Thats where I would see the NEED coming in. Players who heavily pvp and dont do much else benefit from the crafting that Pve'rs do.
Even in shadowbane, a very heavily pvp influenced game, it takes alot of time to run a city and all its shops. I know some people who dont do much pvp. Instead, for the most part, they run there city. City owners have Clients (pvp'ers) and PvP'ers have somewhere to shop for there goods.
Most PVPers are gankers of some form or another. Even pvpers who say they dont "gank" still do. They use multiple people 2v1, or hacks, third party programs, higher levels, IWIN buttons, higher armor, higher weapons, better classes, better races, etc.. Basically anything and everything they can to gain an advantage of a gauranteed win.
That way they can delude themselves into thinking they are so skilled or better.... Take the advantage away and they will reroll to the next IWN class, game, enviroment. Because lets face it if things were perfectly even then their would only be 1 victor. Which would mean that 99.9% of the other players would have to admit that they suck and the delusion would be over. They will never let that happen to their self esteem. Therefore they gank.
I find there are a very very small group that actually want perfect balance. Even though most say they do, they really only want some advantage.
I havent read all this, so cut me some slack if what i says been said already.
But to me the truth is simple.
A truly good MMO needs ALL players types to be able to pursue their individual playstyle eqaully.A truly good MMO would allow for such in its very design.
Sadly the current crop of DEVs is incapable of realizing this simple point.They are all too tunnel "vision"ed and will pursue that flawed tunnel vision to the worst possible outcome when ever push comes to shove.
SOE proves this in spades.As does the incredibly lack luster subscriber numbers of 90+% of the MMOs out there today.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
What does this have to do with MMO PvP? I like fair fights. Guild Wars is great in this regard because it's (usually) equal sized and equipped teams slugging it out, and it's skill that makes the difference. In most other MMOs, PvP is about raw numbers ( Zerg! Kekekeke! ) and higher levels/better equipment. Which is why it's called, "ganking" and not "fighting". Sure, it's one thing for fights to not be fair (GW champs vs GW Newbies), but it's something altogether different when one person has 10x (or higher) more HP and does 10x more damage than the other person because he's played the game more, and he can kill the other person. And this is before skill is even factored in. This is not competition. This is not fun. Even if stats aren't a factor, one guy can be in a bigger group than the other. And this is not like an FPS where the one player can dodge, take cover, get headshots, and prevail over a larger crowd. No, he'll be lucky to bring one guy down to half health before he keels over.
When game mechanics are like this, I will certainly favor a carebarish environment. There may be a certain thrill when flirting with death, but it's tons more thrilling when it's not certain death and you can prevail over it.