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"Why do people cry about the lose exp, corpse retrieval, and other things that make this game more c
Mrbloodworth
Member Posts: 5,615
Because Time sinks do not make a game more challenging...
they are just time sinks.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Comments
Heh.
Some people work all day and play MMORPGs all night. It is a tough lifestyle.
Contrast is why.
If you havent felt loss in your life, you will die a very unsatisfied man, cos you will never know what you realy had!
Instead of playing for 3 month and quitting, you can now play for 2 years. you should be happy!, but I guess you arent able to be satisfied..
Starwars Galaxies, An Empier Diveded, That's what it says on my box anyway.
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
Cry more n00bs!
jk lol
Losing exp upon death makes things more challenging because you have to gain that experience back instead of just throwing yourself into a fight you might not win because there are no consquences (see WoW).
Corpse retrieval is the same. One mans tedium is another mans challenge. Tedium is, in fact, challenging to endure. I do not, however, consider corpse retrieval tedium. It is a consequence of losing a battle. Not dying in a battle requires thought and repetition.
If you don't want these in your game there will be plenty of games who cater to your playstyle. Really hope you give Vanguard a try though, it's going to be stellar.
Exactly. It's a maturity issue, really. Or you can call it an experience issue. If you haven't had much life experience you will likely want everything handed to you. I like to work for my accomplishments, some don't.
Don't get me wrong, I can be plenty immature, but that's just when I'm being a smart alec or trying to be funny. No real harm is ever intended, but it sure is funny when trolls get all indignant and try and pull out the maturity card. They're trolling a games forum that they don't like and wasting their time here on earth pissing over a game they won't ever play and they try and call me immature. ROFL!
Losing exp upon death makes things more challenging because you have to gain that experience back instead of just throwing yourself into a fight you might not win because there are no consquences (see WoW).
Corpse retrieval is the same. One mans tedium is another mans challenge. Tedium is, in fact, challenging to endure. I do not, however, consider corpse retrieval tedium. It is a consequence of losing a battle. Not dying in a battle requires thought and repetition.
If you don't want these in your game there will be plenty of games who cater to your playstyle. Really hope you give Vanguard a try though, it's going to be stellar.
Time sink = Check.
Time sink = Check again.
Time sink != Challenging
Time Sink == Takes more time.
I think vanguard will be fun. But I can’t agree that Eating up your player’s
time is making a game more challenging. Because its not, it just takes more of the
players play time.... nothing more.
Time doesn’t equal challenge.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Exactly. It's a maturity issue, really. Or you can call it an experience issue. If you haven't had much life experience you will likely want everything handed to you. I like to work for my accomplishments, some don't.
Don't get me wrong, I can be plenty immature, but that's just when I'm being a smart alec or trying to be funny. No real harm is ever intended, but it sure is funny when trolls get all indignant and try and pull out the maturity card. They're trolling a games forum that they don't like and wasting their time here on earth pissing over a game they won't ever play and they try and call me immature. ROFL!
So as a 45 year old person that comes home to enjoy a game and freinds, but does not enjoy a two steps forward one back concept that is a xp loss penalty for trying some new content makes me immature? thanks for advising me of this.
I would be comfortable with item decay (no repair is fine), things like we say in SWG where you die and then you need to clear out bf and stat damage was good too.
I really do not equate no xp loss to having everythign handed to me and not workign for an accomplishment. (again i guess this makes me immaure in your eyes).
You know honestly the one thing that is going to turn me off from anygame is this attatude i keep seeing on this forum. "If you do not like this or that then you must be a sucky want everything handed to you baby." You all preach about community then procede to hammer anyone that does not agree with you. One does not build a community by thrashing different view points.
(waits for art and the rest to trash me for being different)
But put it this way.
The reason why death penalty add a little more challenge to a game is not the fact that it will take more time to accomplish things.
The main issue is that because of the death penalty you will look at the game with a different perspective.
One example.
Take WoW and EQ1 (first 3 years).
I played them both, and EQ1 is by far the one that I prefer.
The reason is that in WoW whatever I do, I do it without thinking at the consequences.
I always try to get to the most difficult mobs and in the most dangerous area, because they give better xp and loot for your level.
If I die who cares, I just need to revive and start again were i left.
Needless to say that I got several lvl 60 which I leveled pretty fast, because of the "Leroy" effect.
Still I didn't felt like I achieved anything particularly satisfying, since anyone else had 2-3 lvl 60 like me already.
For me WOW is a kid game, anyone can achieve the same level with very little skills, because there is not real punishment for being a bad player.
In EQ1, dyeing was a real pain in the arse, and because of that, you treated the game with more respect.
The more brainless you are while adventuring, the more time you will have to spend trying to retrieve your corpse, which means that it will take more time for you to achieve thing.
For me EQ1 is a good game because it rewards the most skilled player who can avoid to die too often, therefore he can level faster than the less experts.
Death penalty is not there to make the game feel like a time sink.
In fact you don't have to die at all.............that's what death penalty is for, it is a deterrent for you, so you will try not to die at any cost.
Death penalty is there to make sure that people play their character with the due respect and with the right expertise.
In short
The more skilled will die less and will go faster.
The less skilled will die more and will go slower.
I think is more fair, better than "everyone goes at the same speed regarless their skills" mode, like in WOW.
That is indeed true, I dont really see the point in exp loss... perhaps your comp will have some laggs, internet etc, and its not your fault you die, and then you get exp loss?
Besides this game will need a quite good comp (even if the insist it will be ok on 1gb ram..................SWG IS ON 1GB RAM) atleast 2gb. Anyway exp loss is simply just well, retarded.....
Either you die and you need to make a new character or no exp loss
exp loss isnt hard core, its like if you swim over the desert (which sucks)
Starwars Galaxies, An Empier Diveded, That's what it says on my box anyway.
I understand yours, but it does not make it challenging.
And the first time i die and have to spend 20 minutes grinding off my XP, im
done.
The same thing with EQ2, it happened there and i was done. There are other ways
of making a game "Challenging" than time sinks.
How about making the mobs smarter. That’s challenge. 1billion HP and an AXE of
armor soling isn’t smarter, or more challenging... It just takes longer and
requires more people.
They need to take a tip from Single player games here..... How many single
players games other than an RPG have you played where a boss or creature had 1
billion HP?
I’m currently playing the Evil Dead game... The challenge isn’t to knock off
all his HP... and the bosses don’t have tons of them. It’s their AI and abilities
that make them challenging.... as well as the environment.
What made the Metal gear boos fights so great? I mean, even ratchet and
clank have more intelligent bosses and creatures than MMO’s….They didn’t need
more and more HP to be challenging.
PS: there is no "Skill" in modernMMO's, only knowledge of the system.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
And who said WoW has no challange or penalty for dying? First, your items take a hit and when you get high level and it starts costing. Ok so you have tons of gold and that's not a problem. Then there's the run back to your corpse and it gets old after a bit. If you're lucky, there won't be any mobs around your corpse so that when you revive you can get away to safety. Compared to the other games the losses are minimal. But it doesn't get in the way of letting you enjoy the rest of the game. One of the reasons why WoW is so damn popular.
So who has an alternative for a dying penalty?
D
I believe in balance. For me, it is a matter of how strong the death penality is. I play and enjoy games with and without death penality. In SWG there is currently no death penality, and everyone in enjoys the game neither more nor less because of that. I played games with shard/soul retrieval or item decay and both were ok.
However, corpse run is my NO NO. It is just a step too much, because it extends the time sink idea too far, basically because of the great risk that you die multiple times while trying to retrieve your corpse.
Im MMO I die often because other members of my party do something wrong, not that I am perfect, but I guess thats what we all experience often enough. If the death penality is that harsh, I fear it may cause too great tension and pressure on people, which I dont like to see.
I strife not to die because thats the reason to play. Dieing in a quest IS a penality. I have lost, I have died, I have failed to accomplish my mission, what greater shame could there possibly be. Excuse me if I speak like the olde Paladin, but thats how I feel. If you need additional harsh punishment to feel ashamed for the defeat you need to recheck your moral compass. A grown up should not need a beating to realize failure. Just a thought.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I mean of course better AI would make combat a little more fun, but with no death penalty, you can try as many times as you like til you find the exploit to beat the mob, withouth consequences.
I am not totally against what you are saying, you got a good point when you said that mobs should get better AI, but that's not going to happen too soon, because the technology is still far away.
Meanwhile the only way to separate the boys from the men is death penalty, otherwise we will simply get another WOW.
PS: Like you, I don't like dieing in games that have harsh death penalties, therefore I always make sure that I don't die too often.
That's the whole point of it.
Don't get me wrong, I can be plenty immature, but that's just when I'm being a smart alec or trying to be funny. No real harm is ever intended, but it sure is funny when trolls get all indignant and try and pull out the maturity card. They're trolling a games forum that they don't like and wasting their time here on earth pissing over a game they won't ever play and they try and call me immature. ROFL!
So as a 45 year old person that comes home to enjoy a game and freinds, but does not enjoy a two steps forward one back concept that is a xp loss penalty for trying some new content makes me immature? thanks for advising me of this.
I would be comfortable with item decay (no repair is fine), things like we say in SWG where you die and then you need to clear out bf and stat damage was good too.
I really do not equate no xp loss to having everythign handed to me and not workign for an accomplishment. (again i guess this makes me immaure in your eyes).
You know honestly the one thing that is going to turn me off from anygame is this attatude i keep seeing on this forum. "If you do not like this or that then you must be a sucky want everything handed to you baby." You all preach about community then procede to hammer anyone that does not agree with you. One does not build a community by thrashing different view points.
(waits for art and the rest to trash me for being different)
you do realize every mmo is a timesink, right? you complain about the attitude of people that don't like your ideas but yet we gatta read countless posts by people complaining about the mechanics that will never change.
yes there is going to be a death penalty, no amount of complaining is going to change that. and if you guys are going to make multiple topics about it complaining about it yeah people are going to flame you.
what was wrong with posting this in the thread that was already made? oh i know....you wanted all the attention you could possibly get, right?
don't you think that people who do want a death penalty get sick of reading all these topics about the same damn thing? freaking unbelivable.....like you didn't expect this when you made this flame bait.
we get it....you don't like death penalties...you don't like a timesink (when it is no longer convenient for you) alot of us disagree with you, no surprise there.
next time don't make your own thread when there are plenty already made and maybe you wont get flamed, just a thought.
Actually it does. Waiting for 30 minutes is more difficult than waiting for 10. Balancing on my head for 10 hours is much more difficult than balancing on my head for 10 seconds. Every challenge there is can be equated to time. Whether that time is spent learning an enemies tactics, learning the lay of the land, whatever it is it can be equated to time.
Name me one challenge that cannot be equated to time. I truly hope you can.
The boys and men comment ,,get a grip on reality please. Death penalties don't seperate anyone besides people who are willing to deal with them vs people who aren't. Nothing more , and nothing less.
It is called a death penalty for a reason ,, it's a penalty , not some sort of perverted challenge. It is a penalty for failing , messing up , being an idiot , being unlucky, having lag , having isp problems , etc. No challenge at all to it , that is pure penalty.
Challenge is a nasty fight where you have to pull out your entire bag of tricks to survive. Challenge is getting the perfect pull , or getting in a stun at the right time , or a well timed heal, or dealing with the unexpected.
I would never bash someone who writes half-way respectfully. I don't think you're immature for wanting no exp loss, that's just your opinion. I think it's immature to want things without working for them though. Exp. loss is challenging in that you need to be sure you're ready for a fight and you can't cut corners. For example making sure you have the right supplies before you head out for battle, stuff like that.
I just don't think a bit of exp. loss is a big enough deal to not want to play a game. But then, I enjoy a challenge. Just my opinion, don't bash me for it either.
'Challenge' doesn't increase when you're whacking the same beast over and over again. You played SWG, did you find killing your 1,253rd quanker outside the Mining Outpost any more challenging than the 951st? Of course not, repeated tasks are just that repetitive, not challenging.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
to baphamet
terribly sorry that i posted a germane reply, and answered in my opinion to the original question and to Art how i read his viewpoint.
But thank you for validating my other statement. This is YOUR game and no one else should be able to express a viewpoint on alternative ways to have a death penalty, and that the rest of us should go away.
To anarchyart
Sir i very much respect yur view point and can see where you are coming from, I just take execption I guess to a sweeping statement that not wanting/enjoying xp loss as a maturity issue. Sorry if i misread your post.
Time is only a "challenge" for those people who can not spend 8 to 10 hours a day playing a game and have to fit their playing of a game into their busy lives.
Death Penalty - Your being punished for dying. The "penalty" in Van is the loss of time from doing what you want and instead running, running, running back to your body to recover your gear. I support the concept of a death penalty. I do not support or even like long, boring, down time spent recovering my body.
Devs need to stop thinking of their game as a means to make money. Players need to stop thinking about their playing of the game as a job where time put in equals reward. A game is entertainment and should be enjoyable for all involved. I fail to understand the need to work in real life and then do the same thing in a virtual world. Part of being entertained is escaping from reality. People seem to have forgotten that and now hold a full time real job and a part time job playing their MOG.
Playing a game is NOT a business/job. Yet you people sure want to turn it into that. Time put in equals more perks, and superscedes skill and effort.
A skilled and smart player should always receive better and more rewards then someone who just puts their time in. I look at the DKP system for raid loot so many people use. It stands for the complete opposite of that. Time put in is everything, and the only thing that counts. Accomplishment has become a hollow term bantered about often, but with little meaning. Without effort and skill; time means nothing. Yet time is the focus here... I if I do X for Y hours I get a reward.
Raiding rewards those who have the time for it. End of story.
Van's death penalty is only a penalty to people who have limited play time. It does little to penalize the people who have alot of time on their hands.
Maturity has very little to do with a death penalty. Its not like your stealing cookies out of the cookie jar. Death happens in online games. Its hard to avoid; it happens even to the best players.
Docile acceptance of a idea does not equate to maturity. It leads to further acceptance and a willingnes to allow others to define how you should act.
Datawight - Speed is Life, Glory a Necessity, Death a Given!
heh, reread my post, i did not once bash you for your negative opinion...nice try though. are you sure your not really jonaku in disguise? if your going to spam these boards with the same BS instead of posting in the appropriate thread that is already made you are going to be flamed.
and you knew that, and that is exactly why you made the topic, because you are just looking for attention. i never once said you should go away or bashed you for your opinion but yet you pretend i did.
EQ 1 was good back in the day. Eq 1 with a new coat of paint now is rubbish.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert