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DAOC OR WOW!?!?!

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  • GeogheganGeoghegan Member Posts: 6
    Right now DAoC is undeniably on its way out. If we had been having this discussion in 2004 I would have said DAoC. I think DAoC is more fun, but WoW definitely will last longer.
  • KnightblastKnightblast Member UncommonPosts: 1,787

    Originally posted by Geoghegan
    Right now DAoC is undeniably on its way out. If we had been having this discussion in 2004 I would have said DAoC. I think DAoC is more fun, but WoW definitely will last longer.
    This just seems like a very odd perspective to me.  I play both, and I can say that the newbie areas on the classic DAoC servers are well populated.  I think the main drawback from the game is when WAR comes, but that isn't for another year!  A lot of fun can be had in DAoC until WAR arrives, to be honest. 

    I mean, are we really at the point where we are weighing "Hmmm ... well this company is releasing another game in 12 months and so if I play their other game now, which I think people will leave in 12 months, that will be, like, a total waste because it only lasts for 12 months!"

    That seems very, very odd reasoning to me.  Most likely 12 months is enough to enjoy in most games, and at least you can say that when you've gotten to that point you have done most of the game (assuming you arent playing Lineage II).  I don't see why the time frame issue with DAoC should deter people, to be honest.  WoW and DAoC are both great games, but one is more PvE based and the other is more PvP based.  There are plenty of folks playing DAoC at the moment, however, and we shouldnt be saying otherwise here.


  • InTheGenesInTheGenes Member Posts: 21



    Originally posted by Brainy

    I think you are really struggling to understand what balance is.  I think what you are trying to describe is "different".  I agree Daoc classes are different.  But I was talking about balanced, which they are not.  Balance when two things are equal.  Some classes in DAOC are good in many different situations where others are not good in any relevant situations.  The scenarios I list have no counter and the classes do not have opposition equal counterparts in other realms.

    My example of what you are describing is these two peoples lives are equal or Balanced.

    Person A) Olympic Gold Medalist, CEO, Billionaire, Doctorate, Great Family, Extremely Successful, Very Happy, can do half a backflip.

    Person B) Homeless, Bum, No Family, Full Depression, Uneducated, No Job, No Wealth, Unhappy, Can do full backflips.

    So that makes these two people completely balanced because they each have at least 1 thing the other doesnt?  I suppose if these two ever were in a situation where a full backflip was necessary and a half a backflip wasnt then person B would be superior to A.  Its a bit ridiculous to even try to pretend their lives are equal.  They are different however, but that doesnt make them equal.

    I can sum up this entire post with this statement.  "If DAOC is balanced, then the definition of unbalanced does not exist"



    And I would argue that you haven't quite grasped the concept of what *I* was talking about.

    First of all, class balance and realm balance are two entirely different things, but they certainly affect one another.

    Secondly, what makes classes different (or similiar) to one another is quite germane to the argument of class and realm balance.  I'm not sure why you don't see that.  A Thane's gameplay experience is going to be different from a Theurgist's... or from an Enchanter's.  And, there are going to be some similarities between them, as well.  But the fact remains that if you try to compare all three classes, depending on the circumstances, each of the three will likely seem more "balanced" in one way or another.

    Circumstance plays a very important role in all of this, in my opinion.  Which is why I keep bringing up all those external human/player variables that factor into the perceived success or failure of a particular class, or realm.

    You put that billionaire and the bum on a deserted island together, and all of a sudden, perhaps the billionaire doesn't seem like the automatic success story.  His money isn't going to do much for him there, nor his great family, nor his degree, nor the fact that he used to be very happy, etc.  The bum might be more used to a life of hardship, of scrounging a living out of nothing, he already didn't have a job, he already didn't have any money, etc.  Likely, he'd spend less time bemoaning his sudden misfortune and loss, since he didn't have much to begin with.

    Or... perhaps the billionaire's ambition (that served him well in procuring that great job and wealth) might work in his favor.  Perhaps that great family would do whatever it took to find out what happened to their beloved husband and father.  Perhaps their money would allow them to fund a search for years.  Perhaps his family hated his guts, and is glad he's gone, and that they can now cash in on his lucrative insurance policy.  Perhaps his education would come in handy in some way.  Who knows?

    See what I'm getting at?  As I said in my first post, balance means different things to different people.  You're obviously judging success/balance in different ways than I am.  Who's to say which of us has the "right" answer?  For my part, I don't want cookie-cutter classes, where everyone is the same.  (And in my view, you can't have a discussion about perceived class balance, without talking about sameness and differences.)  I'm perfectly content with the fact that the Vampiir is balanced in different ways than the Reaver, who is balanced differently than a Valkyrie.

    Since the main emphasis of DAoC is the RvR element, I'm more concerned that the realms are balanced, as much as possible.  But again, server/realm population is going to affect it, skill of the players in those realms, time of day that raids occur, etc... they all factor in,  and those aren't things that the developers are ever going to be able to control.  If we saw on every server that Realm X was consistently at the top all the time, then yes, I'd agree with you that there's a balance problem.  But I don't see that now, nor have I ever.  There's going to be an ebb and flow, and that's something that you have to come to terms with, or find somewhere else to spend your time.

  • InTheGenesInTheGenes Member Posts: 21

    Brainy,

    I had one other thing to add, having re-read your latest post:

    You mention that balance is "when two things are equal".  I'm not sure that I can agree with that assessment.

    Should every class do equal damage every time they swing a weapon, or cast a spell?  Should they all be able to buff?  Should they all be able to heal?  Should they all have equal hit points?  Should they all be able to wear the same kind of armor?  Should they all have stealth?

    My answers to every one of the above questions is an emphatic no.

    So, my question to you is: what do you mean when you say "equal"?

  • moomoofarmmoomoofarm Member Posts: 6
    my FIRST 3d MMORPG was Dark age of camelot. I played it back when it was open beta....and i LOVED it. I subscribed to it shortly after, then i quit after a year or 2. I just came back maybe a month ago and i know y i left. ToA expansion ruined it. BUT, there is a fix, simply play in a Classic server which has as much as a population as any other regular server, if not more. Classic servers are great, everything minus ToA. It's great fun. I also played WoW for a year, was addicted to it, then got bored. WoW is overhyped imo. DaoC is boring during first 15 levels (which isn't much) but its fun ebcause if u get tired of huntin, u can go to battlegrounds kill time gain Realm points, then go hunt again. And battlegrounds last till lvl 49, so u have a lot of time to pvp/pve.


    image

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,093



    Originally posted by moomoofarm 
    DaoC is boring during first 15 levels (which isn't much) but its fun ebcause if u get tired of huntin, u can go to battlegrounds kill time gain Realm points, then go hunt again. And battlegrounds last till lvl 49, so u have a lot of time to pvp/pve.


    Wouldn't worry about being bored the 1st 15 levels... those can take just a few hours to clear if you want.  I leveled a Void Eldrich from 1-20 on Thur night, Friday during the day (part time as i was doing office work while i rested) and then re-did it and leveled a Light Eld from 1-24 Friday Night/Saturday during the day.  I even stopped in the BG's and picked up my first 2 realm ranks.

    No, I'm not a level lord...we currently have double experience in the classic areas of the game.  That bonus is being taken away tomorrow with the new expansion, but they've promised to shift it over to the Shrouded Isles Expansion areas for another month or so... and plan to keep it around one way or another going forward.  So combine this with free levels every 5 days or so..and you'll be leveling up in no time.

    i did it by straight grinding, I ignored all the quests and backstory.  Now, if you aren't in a big hurry like I was  (if you are new to the game) I recommend you take your time and enjoy the journey.... do the quests, tasks and take time to explore your realm a litte bit. 

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • ShalandarShalandar Member Posts: 51



    Originally posted by Kyleran



    Originally posted by moomoofarm 
    DaoC is boring during first 15 levels (which isn't much) but its fun ebcause if u get tired of huntin, u can go to battlegrounds kill time gain Realm points, then go hunt again. And battlegrounds last till lvl 49, so u have a lot of time to pvp/pve.

    Wouldn't worry about being bored the 1st 15 levels... those can take just a few hours to clear if you want.  I leveled a Void Eldrich from 1-20 on Thur night, Friday during the day (part time as i was doing office work while i rested) and then re-did it and leveled a Light Eld from 1-24 Friday Night/Saturday during the day.  I even stopped in the BG's and picked up my first 2 realm ranks.

    No, I'm not a level lord...we currently have double experience in the classic areas of the game.  That bonus is being taken away tomorrow with the new expansion, but they've promised to shift it over to the Shrouded Isles Expansion areas for another month or so... and plan to keep it around one way or another going forward.  So combine this with free levels every 5 days or so..and you'll be leveling up in no time.

    i did it by straight grinding, I ignored all the quests and backstory.  Now, if you aren't in a big hurry like I was  (if you are new to the game) I recommend you take your time and enjoy the journey.... do the quests, tasks and take time to explore your realm a litte bit. 


    What Kyleran said!

    New to the game?  The quest system will get you rolling right along.  the backstory is interesting and will provide you with something else to do from level 1-50.  Exploring your realm is important. I've played for 5 years <3 as a Hib> and the lands are beautiful and quests are everywhere to do in each realm. I've never run out of things to do, and with the new expansion, it just adds more to an already full plate.

     

    Good luck and have fun..thats what its all about anyway.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,093

    I'm thinking Mythic owes us something for all this hard work we're doing to promote DAOC Shal... 

    maybe beta keys to WH when they come available  image

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,238



    Originally posted by InTheGenes

    So, my question to you is: what do you mean when you say "equal"?



    I mean equal as its defined.  To be equal doesnt mean it has to be the same.  You keep confusing equal and balance as "same".  Example I can give you is that five, one hundred lbs bars EQUALS one, 5 hundred lbs bar.  They are not the same size or the same color or the same object.  The only thing that is the same is the total weight of all parts added together.  Which coincidently is "balanced".

    I cant understand at all what your keep talking about if a character is balanced or this character is balanced.  Are you talking mentaly balanced?  Because I cannot seem to understand what you are referring too.  I dont even know how you can possible decide if a character is mentally balanced or not.  It doesnt seem to be relevant to the conversation however.  Either this games characters are balanced in regards to playability or they are not.  And they most assuredly are not.  There is not one single area in this game where a realm, a group, a class is balanced.  In every single situation there is always one realm, group, class that has the advantage regardless of player skill.

    What I think most people are looking for is a game where everything is balanced according to skill.  That way if two equally experienced, attentive players, skillful players then regardless of the situation they would be equal.  Or at least something that gets close to this situation.  I am sure most people dont want a game where, I have IWIN button A up or i have x level, x cloak, x armor, x etc... so I win, nothing you can do.

    Dont you want a game where tactics, skill, player experience are the most important factors?  I think most people do.

  • jeeperzjeeperz Member Posts: 71



    Originally posted by InTheGenes






    Originally posted by Brainy
    I think you are really struggling to understand what balance is.  I think what you are trying to describe is "different".  I agree Daoc classes are different.  But I was talking about balanced, which they are not.  Balance when two things are equal.  Some classes in DAOC are good in many different situations where others are not good in any relevant situations.  The scenarios I list have no counter and the classes do not have opposition equal counterparts in other realms.
    My example of what you are describing is these two peoples lives are equal or Balanced.
    Person A) Olympic Gold Medalist, CEO, Billionaire, Doctorate, Great Family, Extremely Successful, Very Happy, can do half a backflip.
    Person B) Homeless, Bum, No Family, Full Depression, Uneducated, No Job, No Wealth, Unhappy, Can do full backflips.
    So that makes these two people completely balanced because they each have at least 1 thing the other doesnt?  I suppose if these two ever were in a situation where a full backflip was necessary and a half a backflip wasnt then person B would be superior to A.  Its a bit ridiculous to even try to pretend their lives are equal.  They are different however, but that doesnt make them equal.
    I can sum up this entire post with this statement.  "If DAOC is balanced, then the definition of unbalanced does not exist"


    And I would argue that you haven't quite grasped the concept of what *I* was talking about.

    First of all, class balance and realm balance are two entirely different things, but they certainly affect one another.

    Secondly, what makes classes different (or similiar) to one another is quite germane to the argument of class and realm balance.  I'm not sure why you don't see that.  A Thane's gameplay experience is going to be different from a Theurgist's... or from an Enchanter's.  And, there are going to be some similarities between them, as well.  But the fact remains that if you try to compare all three classes, depending on the circumstances, each of the three will likely seem more "balanced" in one way or another.

    Circumstance plays a very important role in all of this, in my opinion.  Which is why I keep bringing up all those external human/player variables that factor into the perceived success or failure of a particular class, or realm.

    You put that billionaire and the bum on a deserted island together, and all of a sudden, perhaps the billionaire doesn't seem like the automatic success story.  His money isn't going to do much for him there, nor his great family, nor his degree, nor the fact that he used to be very happy, etc.  The bum might be more used to a life of hardship, of scrounging a living out of nothing, he already didn't have a job, he already didn't have any money, etc.  Likely, he'd spend less time bemoaning his sudden misfortune and loss, since he didn't have much to begin with.

    Or... perhaps the billionaire's ambition (that served him well in procuring that great job and wealth) might work in his favor.  Perhaps that great family would do whatever it took to find out what happened to their beloved husband and father.  Perhaps their money would allow them to fund a search for years.  Perhaps his family hated his guts, and is glad he's gone, and that they can now cash in on his lucrative insurance policy.  Perhaps his education would come in handy in some way.  Who knows?

    See what I'm getting at?  As I said in my first post, balance means different things to different people.  You're obviously judging success/balance in different ways than I am.  Who's to say which of us has the "right" answer?  For my part, I don't want cookie-cutter classes, where everyone is the same.  (And in my view, you can't have a discussion about perceived class balance, without talking about sameness and differences.)  I'm perfectly content with the fact that the Vampiir is balanced in different ways than the Reaver, who is balanced differently than a Valkyrie.

    Since the main emphasis of DAoC is the RvR element, I'm more concerned that the realms are balanced, as much as possible.  But again, server/realm population is going to affect it, skill of the players in those realms, time of day that raids occur, etc... they all factor in,  and those aren't things that the developers are ever going to be able to control.  If we saw on every server that Realm X was consistently at the top all the time, then yes, I'd agree with you that there's a balance problem.  But I don't see that now, nor have I ever.  There's going to be an ebb and flow, and that's something that you have to come to terms with, or find somewhere else to spend your time.



    I really don't understand why Brainy doesn't 'get' what you're saying here!  The best way of putting it I've seen!
  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,238



    Originally posted by jeeperz

    I really don't understand why Brainy doesn't 'get' what you're saying here!  The best way of putting it I've seen!




    What exactly dont I get here Jeeperz?  Things that are different dont necessarily have to be unbalanced.  You can have two handfuls of money, each hand can contain different currency in different amounts.  But there is an exact amount of each required of both sides to be balanced.  Once balanced anything added to one side requires something of equal value to be added to the other side to remain balanced.  Im sure this is all a bit to confusing for you.  Its much easier to make a simple statement like "The best way of putting it Ive seen".  That explains it clearly.  But im sure jeeperz you get it?  Or dont get it?  Or kinda dont get it? Or kinda get that you dont get it?  Ya ya thats it.
  • dreamer05dreamer05 Member UncommonPosts: 679

    DAoC is some of the most fun I have EVER had in an MMORPG and it lasted for a very long time. I quit eventually for different reasons but will probably evetually go back. RvR is something like you've never experienced, its the most fun in PvP I've ever had. And I'm not even a DAoC Fangirl. WoW on the other hand I tried a few times and gave it a very fair chance, and just couldn't enjoy it, kept finding myself not wanting to log in.

    image

    "God, please help us sinful children of Ivalice.."

  • InTheGenesInTheGenes Member Posts: 21



    Originally posted by Brainy

    I mean equal as its defined.  To be equal doesnt mean it has to be the same.  You keep confusing equal and balance as "same".  Example I can give you is that five, one hundred lbs bars EQUALS one, 5 hundred lbs bar.  They are not the same size or the same color or the same object.  The only thing that is the same is the total weight of all parts added together.  Which coincidently is "balanced".




    Equal as defined?  Yet it doesn't mean it has to be the same?

    Dictionary.com has this as its first definition:


    1. as great as; the same as (often fol. by to or with): The velocity of sound is not equal to that of light.

    The American Heritage Dictionary lists this as its first definition:

    1. Having the same quantity, measure, or value as another.

    M-W.com (Merriam Webster) has this as its first definition:

     1a (1) : of the same measure, quantity, amount, or number as another

    Absolutely, there are other meanings for "equal", but hopefully, you understand why in my view, "equal" can be equated with "same".

    In one of your earlier posts, you say: " I agree Daoc classes are different.  But I was talking about balanced, which they are not.  Balance when two things are equal."

    In your analogy about the five 100 lb bars vs the one 500 lb bar, etc... that MAY or MAY NOT be correct.  Five 100 lb bars of lead might be equally balanced (as far as weight is concerned) by one 500 lb bar of gold, but they certainly aren't WORTH the same.

    And to complicate matters, "worth" can change, depending on the situtation, can't it?  If you're a nation that sits atop a neverending gold vein, yet you have no timber to speak of... wood becomes much more valuable to you, in some circumstances, than gold (of which you have more than enough).

    In your latest post you say:





     Originally pos
    ted by Brainy

    There is not one single area in this game where a realm, a group, a class is balanced.  In every single situation there is always one realm, group, class that has the advantage regardless of player skill.



    And yet, in an earlier post, you say:



    Originally posted by Brainy

    Some classes in DAOC are good in many different situations where others are not good in any relevant situations.



    I'm confused.  Which is it?


     Originally posted by Brainy

    What I think most people are looking for is a game where everything is balanced according to skill.  That way if two equally experienced, attentive players, skillful players then regardless of the situation they would be equal.  Or at least something that gets close to this situation.  I am sure most people dont want a game where, I have IWIN button A up or i have x level, x cloak, x armor, x etc... so I win, nothing you can do.



    Mythic cannot balance player skill.  No game company can.  What they can do is provide a platform upon which - all things being EQUAL/BALANCED (whatever you want to call it), the potential exists for ANY player to succeed.  But once again, as I've stated countless times here, there are many many many human/player variables that factor into who actually "wins", vs. who "loses" a particular battle.  You could be the most skillful Eldritch on your server, for example, or even the most skilled PLAYER of ANY class... but if your realm mates are a pack of bumbling idiots, or they don't listen to raid leader instructions, or if they're at the wrong place at the wrong time, or if a group's healer is AFK on the phone at the wrong time, etc... chances are good that you're not going to "win" every time.  SITUATIONALLY, every class has the capacity to succeed, to "win".  Some will have an easier time of it going solo, while others shine when grouped.

    Should every class be able to one- or two-shot another player?  I say no.  Should ANY class be able to?  Not without impunity, but I don't see any class that does.  What I do see are some classes that are consistently able to do so if they capitalize on their class' strengths, while mitigating their weaknesses.  Stealthers are an excellent example of this.  Their ability to be unseen is a great advantage, when they're able to take advantage of it.  But if the conditions aren't perfect for it (if they're uncovered by another stealther, or they're caught in an AE spell, for example), and they're not able to get the jump on their prey, then their chances of success are greatly reduced.  But again, that depends on the circumstances.  Maybe they've got backup, who knows?

    The fact is, however, that there ARE checks and balances in play between classes,  and between the realms.  The "advantages" that stealthers have in some situations, are mitigated by other things, like... lower hit points, the armor and weapon choices available to them (or not available, as the case may be), their damage tables, etc.  The same is true for all the classes.  A Fire Wizard can nuke the crap out of you, if he gets the jump on you... but it IS possible to kill him, of course.  Is a Mending-specced Healer going to be able to do it?  Good question.  SHOULD a Mend-spec Healer be able to go toe-to-toe with a Fire Wizard, given what a Mend-spec Healer brings to his/her group?  I think you'll get different answers to that questions, depending on whom you ask.  Throwing around the word "should", when talking about game design, can be a dangerous proposition.  I call it the Armchair Quarterback Syndrome.

    What I think a lot of people (perhaps including yourself, and I don't say that to be snarky) fail to see is that class/realm balance is NOT 2-dimensional.  There are many layers to it, some that aren't always near the surface.  To be sure, it can be a difficult concept to wrap your brain around, but in my view, it SHOULD be fairly complex, if it has any hope of being close to realistic.

    As for your last question: "Dont you want a game where tactics, skill, player experience are the most important factors?  I think most people do."

    I agree with you, I think a lot of people DO want a game where tactics, skill and player experience are important factors.  The fact is, however, I think DAoC is a near-perfect platform for all of those things.  What Mythic can't do, however, is DESIGN those things.  Those are the things that WE bring to the table, in varying degrees.

    It's a disservice to this game to say that any one player can sit down in front of their computer, mash a fabled "IWIN" button over and over, and log off with 4 million RPs in one night.  I challenge you to show me where that's happening.

    Perhaps a better approach to this debate is for you to post where you see imbalances occuring.  Or better yet, post what you see as solutions to the balance problem that you perceive.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,093



    Originally posted by InTheGenes


    As for your last question: "Dont you want a game where tactics, skill, player experience are the most important factors?  I think most people do."

    I agree with you, I think a lot of people DO want a game where tactics, skill and player experience are important factors.  The fact is, however, I think DAoC is a near-perfect platform for all of those things.  What Mythic can't do, however, is DESIGN those things.  Those are the things that WE bring to the table, in varying degrees.


    You know guys.... you can edit these quotes down to a more manageable size....

    As to this comment, I'll answer truthfully... no, not all the time.  I think every gamer is looking for a way to gain an edge by either working (aka grinding) for superior gear or bonus combat abilities that will make them stand out above everyone else.

    Sure, the classes need to be more or less balanced, but I'd never play a game where everyone had the same skills/abilities... (they call those FPS's don't they?)

    And while people will say that one class in DAOC might be under-powered vs another... but..somewhere, there is a player who can be lethal and run up millions of RP's with it. I've yet to see a class where there wasn't a person just tearing up the Pvp world despite its supposed liabilities.  Sure, there are classes which play easier or are more popular so you see more ppl kicking arse..but in reality..every class in DAOC has its competitive moments.

    Now, what I always felt unbalanced DAOC the most was the buff-bot factor...that should have never been encouraged...no matter how much financial sense it made to mythic.

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,238



    Originally posted by InTheGenes
    I mean equal as its defined.  To be equal doesnt mean it has to be the same.

    You are really trying to take my post out of context.  Would you prefer I said "To be equal doesnt mean it has to be identical?


    Five 100 lb bars of lead might be equally balanced (as far as weight is concerned) by one 500 lb bar of gold, but they certainly aren't WORTH the same.
    You just proved my point.  You are obviously having a difficult time understanding.  Of course for something to be equal it has to be the same in something.  It doesnt have to be exactly the same, althought it could.  Your gold analogy is exactly my point, as long as the wieght is the same, and that is the relevant part in the example then regardless of the other differences it doesnt matter.
    My point is this game is not balanced in the relevant areas, where skill, tactics are the most important. 


     Originally posted by Brainy
    There is not one single area in this game where a realm, a group, a class is balanced.  In every single situation there is always one realm, group, class that has the advantage regardless of player skill.






    Originally posted by Brainy
    Some classes in DAOC are good in many different situations where others are not good in any relevant situations.




    I'm confused.  Which is it?
    I can see you are confused even though its not complicated.  In fact both statement are correct.  I really dont know any other way to explain it to you.  I suppose I could try reversing the statement if that helps.
    In every single situation there is always one realm, group, class that has the disadvantage regardless of player skill.  Some classes are always least powerful in relevant situations.



     Originally posted by Brainy
    What I think most people are looking for is a game where everything is balanced according to skill.  That way if two equally experienced, attentive players, skillful players then regardless of the situation they would be equal.  Or at least something that gets close to this situation.  I am sure most people dont want a game where, I have IWIN button A up or i have x level, x cloak, x armor, x etc... so I win, nothing you can do.



    Mythic cannot balance player skill.  No game company can. 

    In regards to this game trying to balance skill, tactics thats opposite of what im saying it should do.  Sure a game could easily balance skill.  They could make it where skill doesnt matter.  Which is basically what DAOC does.

    What they can do is provide a platform upon which - all things being EQUAL/BALANCED (whatever you want to call it), the potential exists for ANY player to succeed.

    Again thats my point, they dont have all things being Equal/Balanced.  The potential does not exist for any player to succeed in any given circumstance.

    If the above was true, then a person could kill an opponent, log out trade characters with the opponent and still win on the new character regardless of situation.  The person with the highest experience, tactics, skill would win.  Unfortunately in this game my 6yr can long on to a level 24 BoneDancer in the BG's and kill opponents 1v1 by hitting 1 or 2 buttons the entire time.  Certain classes just cannot win regardless of the situation.

    The fact is, however, that there ARE checks and balances in play between classes,  and between the realms.  The "advantages" that stealthers have in some situations, are mitigated by other things.

    I see exactly what you want.  You want a game where there are advantages for players, where skill is minimized.  A game where a 6yr olds parents can buy an ebayed toon with the highest levels, best armor, most IWIN buttons.   This person can win all day long, because someone worked sooooo hard to get that character to that point they deserve to win over some other player that hasnt invested 10000 hours PVEing thier toon.

    I agree with you, I think a lot of people DO want a game where tactics, skill and player experience are important factors.  The fact is, however, I think DAoC is a near-perfect platform for all of those things.  What Mythic can't do, however, is DESIGN those things.  Those are the things that WE bring to the table, in varying degrees.

    They can design a game where tactics, skill, player experience are the most important factors and not the least important.

    It's a disservice to this game to say that any one player can sit down in front of their computer, mash a fabled "IWIN" button over and over, and log off with 4 million RPs in one night.  I challenge you to show me where that's happening.

    Well I didnt know 4 million RP's in one night was a necessary goal to determine if a game is without skill.  I can give you a similiar example.  I know of a Healer bot that is able to get around 100k+ rps on nights where the group is defending a keep/relic.  Log in the heal bot put it in the defense group.  Set it up to spam spread heals and drop mana totems on regular intervals.  Occasionally have it rez/buff, and put on DI.  Basically the bot isnt even doing anything but spread healing on exactly timed intervals.  Lotta skill that is.

    Another example is I used to know a character when I played that ran around with 7 botted characters.  All programed to cast at the exact same time, heal based on health/log meters.  Used to rake in some decent RP's.  He had a pretty nice macro setup.  I will give him credit, the skill to create the program was pretty good.  However if he copied the program and sent it to friends, the skill to run the program was minimal.




  • InTheGenesInTheGenes Member Posts: 21

    You are really trying to take my post out of context.  Would you prefer I said "To be equal doesnt mean it has to be identical?

    Actually, I was trying to get to the bottom of what your definition of "balanced" (and/or "equal") is/was.  You keep going on and on about imbalance, so I was trying to get a better idea about what you were getting at. 

    Of course for something to be equal it has to be the same in something.  It doesnt have to be exactly the same, althought it could.  Your gold analogy is exactly my point, as long as the wieght is the same, and that is the relevant part in the example then regardless of the other differences it doesnt matter.

    The point I've been trying to make with you (unsuccessfully, obviously) is the whole "relevant" thing.  Everyone is going to have different definitions about how one quantifies what is relevant.  As I mentioned last post, class/realm balance is not 2-dimensional, so looking at it (judging/weighing) from that one angle only doesn't really make much sense.  If you're going to compare classes, you can't look at just one facet, but rather, the whole package.

    So, using the gold bar analogy again... sure, the fact that they both weigh the same would allow you to check off the "yes" tickbox, if asked "Are these two items balanced, as far as weight is concerned?".  But if you're judging worth between the two items (which, it seems to me, is really the main argument), then you have to factor in a multitude of other things.  The same holds true when comparing classes (which is necessary to do, if you're going to talk about balance between them).

    My point is this game is not balanced in the relevant areas, where skill, tactics are the most important. 

    In my view, you haven't sufficiently proven that.

    In every single situation there is always one realm, group, class that has the disadvantage regardless of player skill.  Some classes are always least powerful in relevant situations.

    Ok... I guess I'm glad that we finally agree on something, although I don't think that's what I've heard from you consistently up until this point.  But anyway, now that we've gotten that out of the way, it begs the question: is this something with which you have a problem?  I THINK that's what I'm hearing you say (that it is a problem); that this fact forms the basis of your argument about imbalance.  Is that what you're saying?

    Because if so, then my only response to you could only be: cry more.  Of COURSE some classes are less powerful in certain situations.  Just as in an operating room, a stock broker is less likely to perform open heart surgery better than a heart surgeon.  Certain classes were designed to excel in some areas, and other classes in other areas.  Of course, there are overlaps in some of those areas (hybrid classes, for example), but for the most part, each class has its role to play.  I see that as a good thing, adding realism, diversity and variety to the game experience. 


    In regards to this game trying to balance skill, tactics thats opposite of what im saying it should do.  Sure a game could easily balance skill.  They could make it where skill doesnt matter.  Which is basically what DAOC does.

    Obviously, I disagree.  And yet again, it seems like you're contradicting yourself.  You're saying that balancing skill and tactics is the opposite of what you're saying Mythic should do, but then you go on to say that DAoC makes it so that skill doesn't matter (and still later, you seem to bemoan that fact that any six-year-old can take an eBayed toon and wreak all kinds of havoc, etc.).  Again, which is it?

    Again thats my point, they dont have all things being Equal/Balanced.  The potential does not exist for any player to succeed in any given circumstance.

    I think a more accurate way of stating that might be: The potential doesn't exist for every player to succeed in every given circumstance.  Which is true, and in my opinion, as it should be.

    Think about it.  In any given fight/skirmish/raid, someone is going to lose, while someone else is going to win.  Which is one of the reasons why we keep picking ourselves up by our bootstraps, and keep getting back on "the horse", to try again (if you're the one that lost).  Unless, of course, you're one of those folks who immediately logs out in frustration after getting spanked somewhere in the BGs and/or Frontiers.  For the folks that try again, there's typically a thought process running through your head about trying a different tactic, a different strategy.  Which is when we start getting into those human/player variables I've talked about in so many posts.  Maybe you're outnumbered.  Maybe you get reinforcements.  Maybe your current adversary gets hit unexpectedly from behind by the 3rd realm, while you're giving it another go.  Maybe a different strategy you try works much better than you anticipated.  Maybe enemy stealthers are tracking your every move.  Maybe you've picked yourself up by your bootstraps 8 times, and have finally reached your breaking point.  Maybe several of your realmmates reached theirs 3 fights ago, and now your numbers have dwindled even further.  All of these things are things that - while Mythic provided the game mechanics to allow them to happen - they can't control if/when/or how often they DO happen.  Ebb and flow, my friend.

    If the above was true, then a person could kill an opponent, log out trade characters with the opponent and still win on the new character regardless of situation.  The person with the highest experience, tactics, skill would win.  Unfortunately in this game my 6yr can long on to a level 24 BoneDancer in the BG's and kill opponents 1v1 by hitting 1 or 2 buttons the entire time.  Certain classes just cannot win regardless of the situation.

    Oversimplication at it's finest, and a bit of an apples and oranges comparison.  You can't just throw away the value that equipment/gear, skill spec, realm ability choices, time spent playing a particular class,  etc. factor into the equation.  Skill/tactics WILL go a long way for you, but there's a lot of other factors at play here.

    Is your six-year-old going to know what to do if your BD's pets get mezzed?  Or if you get stunned?  Diseased?

    As I've said before, there ARE going to be differences between classes, and some will perform better in one-on-one confrontations.  A Rejuv-spec Cleric isn't likely to overcome a Supp-spec BD... but that's not the only measure of that Cleric's WORTH.  Going back to the gold bars analogy... no, the Cleric and the BD don't WEIGH the same (ie, one point of comparison isn't the same), but if you start judging their worth (to their realm, to their group, etc.) then the scorecard begins to balance out.  Or, maybe not, depending on who's doing the judging.  Again, balance means different things to different people. ::shrug::

    I see exactly what you want.  You want a game where there are advantages for players, where skill is minimized.  A game where a 6yr olds parents can buy an ebayed toon with the highest levels, best armor, most IWIN buttons.   This person can win all day long, because someone worked sooooo hard to get that character to that point they deserve to win over some other player that hasnt invested 10000 hours PVEing thier toon.

    Yeah, that's EXACTLY what I want.  You hit it right on the head, Brainy.  image

    Once again, you're letting your bitterness get the best of you.  You're beginning to sound more and more like someone who considers themself to be "The best of the best, It on a stick" who's had their behind whooped more than they like.  Let it go.

    Now your beef has gone from class imbalance, to the fact that A) it's possible to buy eBayed toons that are higher-leveled, better equipped, etc. than you, and B) that someone who has spent more time than you PVEing their character has an advantage over you in RVR.

    Stomp your feet more, and maybe you'll get an extra graham cracker before naptime.

    First off, purchasing characters off of eBay is neither a new phenomenon, nor is it exclusive to DAoC.  It's not something that I personally would do, nor do I condone it,  but it's unfortunately a fact of the MMORPG world, and one that none of us here are going to be able to do anything about.

    Secondly, in my opinion, there SHOULD be some reward for people who invest more time.  Sure, it bites that we all can't LIVE in the game, and spend exactly the same amount of time playing it.  But again, it's a reality that we just can't do so.  Mythic has done what they can for the "casual" gamer, and I'm sure there are people that will argue that they can do more.  But if you're going to log in the man hours, you should get something for your efforts.  Again, I'd wager this is another of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenarios, but there you have it.

    They can design a game where tactics, skill, player experience are the most important factors and not the least important.

    Again, I disagree that those things are the least important facets of the game.  On the contrary, in my opinion, the developers have shown that they consider those things to be rather important.

    But I'm still curious.  What would you do, specifically, as a designer/developer to increase the importance of tactics, skill and player experience in this game?

  • jeeperzjeeperz Member Posts: 71



    Originally posted by Brainy






    Originally posted by jeeperz
    I really don't understand why Brainy doesn't 'get' what you're saying here!  The best way of putting it I've seen!




    What exactly dont I get here Jeeperz?  Things that are different dont necessarily have to be unbalanced.  You can have two handfuls of money, each hand can contain different currency in different amounts.  But there is an exact amount of each required of both sides to be balanced.  Once balanced anything added to one side requires something of equal value to be added to the other side to remain balanced.  Im sure this is all a bit to confusing for you.  Its much easier to make a simple statement like "The best way of putting it Ive seen".  That explains it clearly.  But im sure jeeperz you get it?  Or dont get it?  Or kinda dont get it? Or kinda get that you dont get it?  Ya ya thats it.


    Oh I get it- and after rereading this thread and the thoughtful replies that you have been given - I am beginning to think that you are not going to be happy with any answer that anyone gives you- at all. 

     


     

  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,238



    Originally posted by InTheGenes


    So, using the gold bar analogy again... sure, the fact that they both weigh the same would allow you to check off the "yes" tickbox, if asked "Are these two items balanced, as far as weight is concerned?".  But if you're judging worth between the two items (which, it seems to me, is really the main argument), then you have to factor in a multitude of other things.  The same holds true when comparing classes (which is necessary to do, if you're going to talk about balance between them).

    Yes I agree this is the main argument.  I will use your word "worth" if you like.  If this helps you separate balance.  This game was designed to be a RVR/PVP game.  Therefore determining "worth" should be equal using that measurement.  Who cares if one class is good at PVE or a Race is pretty over another.  PVP/RVR ability should be the only measuring stick.  There are some classes that are extremely valuable and others that are not required at all.  In most cases an entire relic raid could be made of 3 or 4 classes of one realm with most of those classes weighted even heavier to one type, and they would win another realm that was perfectly evenly distributed equal number of each class.  The reason is because some classes just are not balanced evenly.

    No matter what RVR/PVP environment you come up with, 200v200, 50v50, 16v16, 8v8, 2v2, 1v1.  I can setup the classes unevenly distributing them wieghting them to superior classes, that setup will always win a perfectly even distribution of classes.

    The other fundemental disagreement we have is "the game developers" purpose.  You believe the game should add in game features to give players advantages over another (levels, items, /played time, ...)  where I believe the game should not do that.  I think the game should setup an environment where someone could use thier out of game advantages namely (knowledge of the game, when to use a weapon/spell or not, use of timing, use of terrain, knowledge of special skills, when to use defensive spells/postures and various tactics).  I think the out of game (player intelligence) should be the overwhelming factors, anything that detracts from this is unbalancing to me.

    My point about ebayed characters was misunderstood by you, I am not suggesting its bad, if the game was balanced properly where player intelligence was the main factors, then someone buying an ebay toon would give them no advantage.  The only way they could gain an advantage was to play the game and learn the game, just like everyone else.  My example with the ebay toon is the way DAOC is setup, someone without any skill or knowledge of the game can by a toon max RR, gear etc... and be immediately better then someone else who has been playing the game for a long time.





  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,238



    Originally posted by InTheGenes



    But I'm still curious.  What would you do, specifically, as a designer/developer to increase the importance of tactics, skill and player experience in this game?



    Here are some things I feel the game could do to foster a competitive environment.

    1. Increase the availability of ACTIVE defensive spells/positions/postures.  Not automatic passive abilities like this class is always defensive when wearing a shield.  Things like, if you see a Wizard casting a fireball, you can put up a fire shield/equip cold rings, interupt the caster with something.... this ability would only work for a few seconds long enough to remove much of the damage.  This would mean the Wizard would need more then just fire spells, but all spell lines that way they also could change tactics if they see one line isnt working effectively.
    2. Increase the use of ways to heal like potions, bandages, spells, abilities .... anything that can extend the battle to those that know how and when to use the proper items.
    3. Allow thrown weapons to be used on a separate timer/ability then a regular weapon.  So say a stealther/assassin class sees a caster casting, while he is engaged in hand to hand combat, basically he could throw something, rock, glaive, ... at the caster and have a chance of interrupting.
    4. Remove automatic interrupts on casters, shorten casting time, lengthen recast time, reduce spell damage.  Basically casters being continuously interrupted while casting removes thier ability to fight toe to toe with other classes.  Most games have it where casters can cast while melee same as a melee can attack while taking caster damage.  Both is needed to keep both classes balanced.
    5. Have effective ACTIVE stances that parry/reduce damage if the style is used.  Therefore if they are acting defensively they can negate most of the damage, the trade off would be they wouldnt be able to give much damage.  Daoc has something similiar for guarding a target, but what about gaurding yourself?
    6. Reduce damage overall, getting 2 shot but 3 people assisting just doesnt keep skill the important part of game.  Any monkey can /stick and press 1 attack and win.  There should be ways that people can avoid situations like this if they are careful and understand how to defend themselves.  People that know how to play well should be able to last a long time in battle.
    7. Have more emphasis on changing weapons / defensive styles in battle.  Say you see a person weilding a heavy weapon, allow the other person to swap weapons or change styles to combat or lessen the damage.  That way the aggressor either has to change tactics or lose the battle.  Currently the game has it where you can read off of a list what items/weapons you need to equip before you even leave a city.  Where is the tactics in that.
    8. Allow spells and items to be equiped/used midspell to lessen the effects of a spell.  Like take a spell like zepher, instead of being stuck throughout the duration.  Allow players to do something to lessen the effects or remove the effects completely, or even block the effects.  If they fail to react in time, then they suffer until they do react.
    9. Make armor/weapons/spells have weakness as well as advantages.  Say someone is using xxx they should be weak to yyy while its in use.  That way someone could notice that and change thier weapon/spell/armor/style/ability to accomdate the new information.

    Basically my point above is add anything to the game that allows people to react to a given situation and with proper technique, tactics, skill, and experience a person, group of people, raid of people can turn the tide of battle to their favor immediately.  Anything that forces opponents to evaluate their situation and give players abilities that allow them to counter given situations themselves.

    I could go on and on but I think you get the point.

    Areas I feel ruin a game are LEVELs that make a difference, armor that has no weakness but is superior all around, weapons that are good in all areas and have no offseting disadvantage., abilities that cannot be countered, most importantly NO PASSIVE ABILITIES.  Basically anyting that someone without any clue how to play the game could sit down and use effectively to gain an advantage over someone else with intense knowledge of the game.

  • JulianDracosJulianDracos Member UncommonPosts: 1,528

    Originally posted by Brainy

    Originally posted by InTheGenes

    But
    I'm still curious.  What would you do, specifically, as a
    designer/developer to increase the importance of tactics, skill
    and player experience in this game?


    Here are some things I feel the game could do to foster a competitive environment.

    1. Increase
      the availability of ACTIVE defensive spells/positions/postures. 
      Not automatic passive abilities like this class is always defensive
      when wearing a shield.  Things like, if you see a Wizard casting a
      fireball, you can put up a fire shield/equip cold rings, interupt the
      caster with something.... this ability would only work for a few
      seconds long enough to remove much of the damage.  This would mean
      the Wizard would need more then just fire spells, but all spell lines
      that way they also could change tactics if they see one line isnt
      working effectively.
    2. Increase the use of ways to heal like
      potions, bandages, spells, abilities .... anything that can extend the
      battle to those that know how and when to use the proper items.
    3. Allow
      thrown weapons to be used on a separate timer/ability then a regular
      weapon.  So say a stealther/assassin class sees a caster casting,
      while he is engaged in hand to hand combat, basically he could throw
      something, rock, glaive, ... at the caster and have a chance of
      interrupting.
    4. Remove automatic interrupts on casters, shorten
      casting time, lengthen recast time, reduce spell damage. 
      Basically casters being continuously interrupted while casting removes
      thier ability to fight toe to toe with other classes.  Most games
      have it where casters can cast while melee same as a melee can attack
      while taking caster damage.  Both is needed to keep both classes
      balanced.
    5. Have effective ACTIVE stances that parry/reduce
      damage if the style is used.  Therefore if they are acting
      defensively they can negate most of the damage, the trade off would be
      they wouldnt be able to give much damage.  Daoc has something
      similiar for guarding a target, but what about gaurding yourself?
    6. Reduce
      damage overall, getting 2 shot but 3 people assisting just doesnt keep
      skill the important part of game.  Any monkey can /stick and press
      1 attack and win.  There should be ways that people can avoid
      situations like this if they are careful and understand how to defend
      themselves.  People that know how to play well should be able to
      last a long time in battle.
    7. Have more emphasis on changing
      weapons / defensive styles in battle.  Say you see a person
      weilding a heavy weapon, allow the other person to swap weapons or
      change styles to combat or lessen the damage.  That way the
      aggressor either has to change tactics or lose the battle. 
      Currently the game has it where you can read off of a list what
      items/weapons you need to equip before you even leave a city. 
      Where is the tactics in that.
    8. Allow spells and items to be
      equiped/used midspell to lessen the effects of a spell.  Like take
      a spell like zepher, instead of being stuck throughout the
      duration.  Allow players to do something to lessen the effects or
      remove the effects completely, or even block the effects.  If they
      fail to react in time, then they suffer until they do react.
    9. Make
      armor/weapons/spells have weakness as well as advantages.  Say
      someone is using xxx they should be weak to yyy while its in
      use.  That way someone could notice that and change thier
      weapon/spell/armor/style/ability to accomdate the new information.

    Basically
    my point above is add anything to the game that allows people to react
    to a given situation and with proper technique, tactics, skill, and
    experience a person, group of people, raid of people can turn the
    tide of battle to their favor immediately.  Anything that forces
    opponents to evaluate their situation and give players abilities that
    allow them to counter given situations themselves.

    I could go on and on but I think you get the point.

    Areas
    I feel ruin a game are LEVELs that make a difference, armor that has no
    weakness but is superior all around, weapons that are good in all areas
    and have no offseting disadvantage., abilities that cannot be
    countered, most importantly NO PASSIVE ABILITIES.  Basically
    anyting that someone without any clue how to play the game could sit
    down and use effectively to gain an advantage over someone else
    with intense knowledge of the game.


    I agree
    that battles are often too short.  However, nothing you have said
    has convinced me of imblance or lack of tactics.  The difference
    is that you want a different playing experience than what the game
    offers.  Most of what you suggest remind me of playing a single
    player RPG on a console.  Nothing wrong with that and perhaps a
    game from scratch could be built like that, but it is not DAOC and most
    of what you suggest alters the fundamentals of the game's mechanics and
    design.  Anyway, on to some of your points:



    1.  NS, Arrows, charge works.  You can run away.  You
    can quickcast on them first.  If they speced more than one spell
    line then casters would be worthless.  If they did spec more than
    one line and were not worthless they would be too OP.



    2.  Group you a healer (or more than one).  Potions now have
    5 charges each and their values slightly increased.  IF you
    increase them too much it makes healers less needed. 



    3.  NS can do this.  I can insta cast on the target. 
    This does not help the other two classes.  But, in any case - you
    are an assassin.  You are supposed to sneak up, kill in a couple
    of shots, and run off before getting caught. 



    4.  You have quckcast.  There is mastery of
    concentration.  You have items that lessen your chance to be
    interupted. 



    5.  This seems interesting and would not fundamentally change the mechanics.



    6.  I think damage should be reduced, but at the same time the biggest problem is with /assist. 



    7.  People do change weapons for different damage types.  As
    for changing between a sword and shield and a heavy weapon, that would
    require double specing and we end up with a problem similar to
    casters. 



    8.  Not really going to work in fast paced battle.  I see a
    fire spell coming and then I what, change items?  Unlikely I would
    get those off.  Further, it just invites people to use more than
    one damage type so I do not see any help here and it seems unlikely
    unless you are turn based battles. 



    9.  Armor does have disadvantages.  I mean different armor
    types are vulnerable to different types of damage.  Certainly this
    is not as much as your probable want but it is there.  As for
    weapons, there are always trade offs while making your template. 
    Do you have X or Y because you cannot have them both.  Do you want
    to cap all the stats or reisists or try for a middle ground?  Of
    course all of this is done prior to battle and what you want are things
    done in battle. 



    There is a certain problem with combining certain playstyles into a
    mmorpg game.  If it is turn based there is no action and I would
    think nearly impossible to do.  If it is all "skill" based such as
    my personal reaction time then it favors those that play FPS. 
    Mmorpgs need to give the FPS but have win/loss determined more by
    character skills than by my reaction time.  Even if you say the
    "tactic" is using an item at an appropriate time then I need to be able
    to quickly switch between those items. 



    I think some aspects of what you suggest can be encorporated. 
    They were planned for Imperator and many have ended up in WAR. 
    However, these are not based on my speed as a person, but based up my
    character development and the tide of the battle.  These things
    are like special moves than can be done during the battle or setting up
    defensive skills before going into battle.  Further, by fighting
    certain types of monsters you can skills against other players. 
    So a dwarf can fight a lot of giants and gain defensive skills against
    large targets. 



    So I think some of what you want can be done.  The problem is that
    you cannot make fundamenal changes to the mechanics of a game after its
    release.  You risk pissing off your current player base to attract
    a new player base.  There is only so far you can push
    things.  However, with that said, this does not mean that new
    games are better.  They are only better if the content is better
    or the mechanics are better.  In terms of Fantasy, so far there
    has not been better.  AoC and WAR, however, have the potential to
    be better. 



  • Nikoz78Nikoz78 Member UncommonPosts: 910
    Easy. DAoC hands down. image


    image


    I miss the good ol' days when nerds were actually intelligent.

  • bedolla3401bedolla3401 Member Posts: 293



    Originally posted by reavo

    DAoC is a much better game than WoW.
    But DAoC is empty right now. 



    do u play DAOC now?
  • ShalandarShalandar Member Posts: 51
    As the above poster indicated, it depends on which server/cluster you
    play on.  Gareth is popular atm . Some of theTOA servers are doing
    just fine. Mordred  (PvP) server has been dying a slow death a
    long time.



    Don't just echo what others have posted about the game being "empty."  Edjumicate yourself.



    I'll remember you statement tonight when im helping my 55 guildies
    fight off the hordes in NF tonight.  It will give me something to
    smile about, aside from cutting the head off aonther Shar vamp.




  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,093



    Originally posted by Shalandar 
    It will give me something to smile about, aside from cutting the head off aonther Shar vamp.



    Pay no attention to Shal... he's delusional... like there's a Vamp out there that it doesn't take 4 Albs/Mids to kill....

    Hibs are gonna roll him tonight.....

    image

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • MAgha1976MAgha1976 Member Posts: 5
    Agreed, I got bored with WoW rather quickly.  I think DAoC is a much better game.  


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