Actually if you take a look at the industry reports you'll see that both companies were hurting badly. I think it's MMOCharts.com, you'll see that CCP had a very small slice of the pie. While they were likely in the black, I doubt they were making a fortune either. Bandwidth and hardware isn't much, especially if they had leased hardware... however they still require manpower and other resources to maintain the company plus the product.
You forget that CCP does not need to be biggest. CCP is an independent developer that is strictly online. No boxes to print. No DVDs to distibute. No great advertisement campaign that cost millions of dollars to pay for. No distributer that takes 75% of the profit.
CCP finished paying for the development cost a long time ago. The only expenses now are servers, bandwidth and salaries. At least as far as I know.
I agree that a company like Blizzard would be in trouble if it had EVE's market share. But for an independent european game developer this market share is way more than enough.
Although this makes me feel sad for White Wolf, as someone who formerly worked with them as a writer. They did make the best table top products in the gaming industry for quite a long time. Although, I'm definitely very concerned with CCP calling the shots... and as they are a wholy owned subsidiary, that means by law that they can tell White Wolf what to do and how to conduct operations.
Knowing a few of the CCP guys and having spend countless hours of Mage with the Art Director. And knowing that CCP is mostly run by former members of the Dev team that I beleive all are big WW fans. I really don't think you need to worry much. White Wolf is in good hands. I seriously doubt that thay are going to cancel Vampire or something.
Originally posted by JonGretar Actually if you take a look at the industry reports you'll see that both companies were hurting badly. I think it's MMOCharts.com, you'll see that CCP had a very small slice of the pie. While they were likely in the black, I doubt they were making a fortune either. Bandwidth and hardware isn't much, especially if they had leased hardware... however they still require manpower and other resources to maintain the company plus the product.
You forget that CCP does not need to be biggest. CCP is an independent developer that is strictly online. No boxes to print. No DVDs to distibute. No great advertisement campaign that cost millions of dollars to pay for. No distributer that takes 75% of the profit.
CCP finished paying for the development cost a long time ago. The only expenses now are servers, bandwidth and salaries. At least as far as I know.
I agree that a company like Blizzard would be in trouble if it had EVE's market share. But for an independent european game developer this market share is way more than enough.
Although you forget that in order for any company to grow that means positive cash infusion and on a regular basis. So they just bought White Wolf, but even White Wolf's profit margin is decreasing consistantly at a yearly basis. Great that they are fans of White Wolf, but being a fan won't help save a failing industry nor will it help two ailing companies suddenly be profitable or manageable fiscaly speaking for that matter. Honestly their distribution method is foolish. It would be fine if it was an addendum to an existing practice, but it's all they do. Secondarily, there are plenty of publishers/distributors out there, who do work on a global level without taking 75 percent off the top. Bottom line is that you need capital in order to push and expand your business outwards.
I do agree with the other poster that talked about the rewrites of the World of Darkness line. That was a big mistake with the fans on many many fronts. People have been complaining about this since Loraine Williams went nuts when she took the reigns of TSR over from Gygax and plopped out second edition AD&D. It's a never ending cycle, and better believe 4th edition D&D is already in the works and slated for release in 2011. Better believe that White Wolf will have another World of Darkness edition down the road too.
Banegrivm Leader of the 1st Fist of Light www.1stfistoflight.com
To me this is bad news, as a gamer. Hopefully they will prove me wrong.
Merging isn't something possible, 1 side always assimilate the other. CCP have the high-up, seems like they buy out WW...not merging.
They try to make it sound like it is 2 great companies...CCP achievements are...neglictables, in comparaison to WW achievements.
Kinda remind me when WotC did buy TSR, however WotC didn't ever say: "merging". In facts, WotC did just fine IMO, they focus on Eberron too much, but well, can't blame them. At least WotC did accomplish a significant success with Magic the Gathering. Not to mention, WotC was kinda assimilated by TSR, even if they buy it out, they allow it to be overtake their inhibitions. EvE isn't noteworthy, it is a niche inside of a niche...This sound like a catastrophic situation to me, oh well, farwell WW, it was nice knowing you guys, see ya in a the next life! CCP sounds like they have no idea what they are doing and that they are about to ruin everything.
I think I will go drink...a LOT!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
As I've said in another post on the forums, I think this is amazing and it means, for me anyways, that we're one step closer to finally having a Vampire (WoD) MMO that fans can be proud of playing. I have no doubt that out of many companys, CCP is one of the few that would be able to pull it off well and give it, it's much needed attention to detail.
As a huge fan of V:TM and now Vampire:Requiem I'm certainly a little worried. My first thoughts were things like, will the next Vampire book get pushed back in favor of developing the Eve sets/books, will some of the long term writers and staff on WW loose their jobs... things along that nature.
I'm still a little leary about all those questions but most of all I'm just really excited, this was a great surprise and for the first time in a long time I'm actually really stoked about a business move inside the industry. Could be a wonderful thing and I'll be on the edge of my seat till I hear more.
Big request to MMORPG.com staff. please find out more about the quote:
Conceptualization and early development has begun to bring White Wolf's World of Darkness, one of the world's strongest gaming properties, into the online world."
When and if you can... pretty please, with cherrys on top .
Originally posted by JonGretar Why would they want to go into bed with EA or SOE ? They are making a bunch of money. They have complete control over their own company. Why on earth would it interest them to join forces with some company that takes all the control and half the income?No. CCP is independent. The only true independent game maker. Them going to EA would be like Quinten Tarrantino making a 3 movie contract to do Disney kiddy flicks.
er I think maybe you're a little out of touch on this subject. Warhammer has been thrown into bed with EA and Vanguard with SOE, that was two indies in bed with the big boys.
I said that CCP are showing there are other ways than jumping into bed with the big lables.
You forget that CCP does not need to be biggest. CCP is an independent developer that is strictly online. No boxes to print. No DVDs to distibute. No great advertisement campaign that cost millions of dollars to pay for. No distributer that takes 75% of the profit.
You don't seem to have a clue about what you post about. You don't seem to have any idea of the massive costs needed to keep an MMO competitive these days.
You think game servers just run on their own? How about those game download servers they will need if they don't sell the game via shops on DVDs (which CCP do anyway). How about those constant content updates, I'm sure they don't write themselves.
You can't even argue against my point because modern MMO costs is one of the main reasons why we've seen Sigil jump in with SOE and Mythic with EA.
CCP are just showing us that there is more than one way to skin a cat.
Originally posted by Saekora What proof do you gentleman have of CCP's supposed 'financial troubles?'
Bane has absolutely zero proof, and hes also a great kisser
I personally know folks from both CCP and White Wolf neither company is strapped for cash; in fact both companies have done quite well for themselves recently. This is a growth opportunity nothing more. WW wants to be a major player in online entertainment, CCP wants to expand its line to the offline sector, WW doesnt want to touch one of the supposed Giants because they aren't going to be here in five years, and CCP doesnt want Hasborg anywhere near their baby. It is as simple as that. What we the fans are going to get in return is an IP that will span across all mediums Games books and yes even films. As much was said ther are so many things that still haven't been revealed...it is an exciting time to be an EvE fan,
Trust me the Big Three are trembiling under their desk at this news.
I have so little proof, I only quoted some sources for people that they could very easily look up if they even had half a brain. I didn't come on here and say "oh I know so and so..." because quite really, you can never prove you know someone with the anonymity of the internet. Knowing people in the biz is one thing, having involvements in the biz is altogether different. Lots of people in the gaming industry have "opinions", and the industry is also rather ego driven, as your post shows true again in spades. All you have is pure speculative opinion at best, and I'll wager like many you don't have any idea about the internal workings of the gaming industry. That was about as funny as hearing how the White Wolf writers were going to do some work on the CCP MMO's that were coming out by another poster. Good luck with that, somehow I have a hard time imagining White Wolf hiring freelancers (which are their writers) to do work on an MMO; and in house writers these days are very uncommon. While I'm sure some of my former associates wouldn't have a problem with it, I seriously doubt it will happen based on what I know from experience and the way things work by a general process.
Banegrivm Leader of the 1st Fist of Light www.1stfistoflight.com
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
It better not be Vampires in Space or some lame thing like that
I played Eve, it's a good game but not for me. I really hope they capture the feeling of the World of Darkness game. The story of the game is great I just hope they stick to it and not butcher it just to be innovative
Originally posted by Razorback Make love not war guys. Lets focus on the topic and not on each other.
I don't have an issue with that Razor, but spreading outright BS like Bane is currently doing and has a long history of doing both in the games he plays and on forums is a bit irritating.
Right now EvE fans and WW fans are naturally concerned about the implications of this merger, the last thing they need is someone with a long history of social engineering to come along and say they are doing it because they are both broke. That is libelous and spins this into something negative, which it isn't.
Most logical people in the industry know that neither one of these companies are hurting, but Joe average fan doesnt; garbage like this isn't productive nor should it be welcome. I'm certain that in the coming weeks MMORPG.com will have an opportunity to talk with both Hilmar and Mike about the implications of all of this but until that happens the last thing the community needs are Outhouse experts spreading disinformation.
Originally posted by martinj63 Originally posted by Razorback Make love not war guys. Lets focus on the topic and not on each other.
I don't have an issue with that Razor, but spreading outright BS like Bane is currently doing and has a long history of doing both in the games he plays and on forums is a bit irritating.
Right now EvE fans and WW fans are naturally concerned about the implications of this merger, the last thing they need is someone with a long history of social engineering to come along and say they are doing it because they are both broke. That is libelous and spins this into something negative, which it isn't.
Most logical people in the industry know that neither one of these companies are hurting, but Joe average fan doesnt; garbage like this isn't productive nor should it be welcome. I'm certain that in the coming weeks MMORPG.com will have an opportunity to talk with both Hilmar and Mike about the implications of all of this but until that happens the last thing the community needs are Outhouse experts spreading disinformation.
You know, the more I read what you write... the more you remind me of a certain group of troublemakers that I had the displeasure of running into. If you truly knew me of course, as you lay the claim to... you'lld know I only speak fact when I speak based off of knowledge. I also offer proof of my facts as I did in the past with source material, and as I did yet again in this very thread... in black and white no less. The "BS" you ever so quaintly refer to would be the lore of EQ obviously from the Codex of War, again... very same tone from same group that was well known to harass me and my fellow guildmates. My "BS" as you call it was also why I was hired to work on the EQ RPG by White Wolf/SOE. I left the project midway through working on the Game Masters Guide to pursue another project (currently unannounced) in the gaming industry which I'm currently involved in. You should really stop being libelous yourself before running around pointing fingers and making rampant off the hook accusations. I didn't appreciate it then, and I certainly do not appreciate it now, nor will I tolerate it.
I have no doubt that representives of one or both companies will put a spin on it. Anyone can see there's already been a spin via the "merger" that clearly isn't, for anyone that understands how corporate structures operate. Thats typical for the business world. How many people come out with an announcement and say they are doing terrible? The table top industry is hurting in a major way right now, more so then ever. Don't believe me? Go look up in Comics & Games Retailer for yourself. Compare the dwindling revenues over the last few years. They are dropping consistantly each year. Then go to a hobby and games shop, IF you can find one (as many have been shutting their doors) and ask about the distributors for table top games over the last few years and find out how many of them are still in business or more importantly closed their doors because of a lack thereof. While your at it, ask them how many hobby shops that dealt with table top games are still around as many are now gone. If you do this, I think you'll be surprised. What you're being told versus the factual implication of whats been ongoing is completely different.
I'm glad you think CCP is great and that you have friends there, but there are a great deal of people that do not. They may be good people, and hey thats great. I know alot of really nice and good hearted people in the gaming industry, but I don't share in their gaming philosophies. Am I included in that segment of people that doesn't care for Eve? Absolutely, the game is more work to me, and games are supposed to be about having fun... not working. If I have to "work" in a game, then it's no longer fun, and most people out there want to have fun. This is why Blizzard is trying to take WoW in a totally different direction away from the raiding. The devs even admitted at Blizzcon that they found out only 10 percent of their server population had ever raided, and they didn't understand why. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to find out, if you stop, talk to people, listen to what they are saying, and shelf your ego. Sometimes it's not about what you want, it's about what they want. I don't believe CCP understands this just yet, and if they approach the entertainment industry with that same vein I sincerely doubt they will make much of an impact.
And while we are at it, what has CCP done really for the gaming industry thats revolutionary? Really, what? I'd love to know. Yes they have a pretty looking game, yes they have a very large playspace for their game, and hey... thats great to have. I love that myself. Capital Ship battles, while I've heard are fun take an insane amount of work I've also heard to get to. That for me was where I stopped so I never saw that part. Again, games should be fun out of the box... not fun eventually, and thats how I felt from playing. Their numbers I know started at only 1k subscriber base and it took them roughly 2 years just to hit 85k in numbers. Thats never a good sign with an MMO when you consider the averages of people online, and the segment of those internet users are gamers. So again I ask, what have they done thats really revolutionary? I don't see it, obviously many other people feel similiar because if they felt otherwise, they and myself would all be playing Eve. I for one absolutely love Sci-Fi. I wanted to like Eve, but unless it radically changes... I won't. So that puts us back to square one again.
I'm a skeptic with all things in the gaming industry, because everyone says that they have "the best thing coming" soon, and when it comes out, it's nothing but the "same old same old". Goes back to what I said earlier about everything in the gaming industry being "ego driven". Everyone has an opinion and nine times out of ten it's "their baby", or they get a little taste of success or the limelight and suddenly they can do no wrong, and no one elses opinion counts. if they should somehow happen to fix Eve, I say great. Again, I'd love to play a good Sci Fi game. If they make something fantastic as far as an Eve franchise goes, again great! I love good movies and other items in that vein. However, going by what I've seen... I maintain my stance and my opinion.
Best Regards, George Doutrich
EQ RPG Author
AKA...
Banegrivm Leader of the 1st Fist of Light www.1stfistoflight.com
Wherever Bane goes drama follows . I find it interesting that both Mike and Conrad has a very different version of your Employment and your "Leaving"
It's painfully obvious you have hatred for CCP and a vendetta against WW. Don't bring it here, you will find that this community doesnt take kindly to fertilizer salesmen.
Im going to step back and let Razor deal with this, I have no desire to continue to give you the attention you so desperately seek. Put up links that we all can read about WW and CCP being broke or STHU. You have no proof ergo you sir are full of it.
Originally posted by Banegrivm
You know, the more I read what you write... the more you remind me of a certain group of troublemakers that I had the displeasure of running into. If you truly knew me of course, as you lay the claim to... you'lld know I only speak fact when I speak based off of knowledge. I also offer proof of my facts as I did in the past with source material, and as I did yet again in this very thread... in black and white no less. The "BS" you ever so quaintly refer to would be the lore of EQ obviously from the Codex of War, again... very same tone from same group that was well known to harass me and my fellow guildmates. My "BS" as you call it was also why I was hired to work on the EQ RPG by White Wolf/SOE. I left the project midway through working on the Game Masters Guide to pursue another project (currently unannounced) in the gaming industry which I'm currently involved in. You should really stop being libelous yourself before running around pointing fingers and making rampant off the hook accusations. I didn't appreciate it then, and I certainly do not appreciate it now, nor will I tolerate it.
I have no doubt that representives of one or both companies will put a spin on it. Anyone can see there's already been a spin via the "merger" that clearly isn't, for anyone that understands how corporate structures operate. Thats typical for the business world. How many people come out with an announcement and say they are doing terrible? The table top industry is hurting in a major way right now, more so then ever. Don't believe me? Go look up in Comics & Games Retailer for yourself. Compare the dwindling revenues over the last few years. They are dropping consistantly each year. Then go to a hobby and games shop, IF you can find one (as many have been shutting their doors) and ask about the distributors for table top games over the last few years and find out how many of them are still in business or more importantly closed their doors because of a lack thereof. While your at it, ask them how many hobby shops that dealt with table top games are still around as many are now gone. If you do this, I think you'll be surprised. What you're being told versus the factual implication of whats been ongoing is completely different.
I'm glad you think CCP is great and that you have friends there, but there are a great deal of people that do not. They may be good people, and hey thats great. I know alot of really nice and good hearted people in the gaming industry, but I don't share in their gaming philosophies. Am I included in that segment of people that doesn't care for Eve? Absolutely, the game is more work to me, and games are supposed to be about having fun... not working. If I have to "work" in a game, then it's no longer fun, and most people out there want to have fun. This is why Blizzard is trying to take WoW in a totally different direction away from the raiding. The devs even admitted at Blizzcon that they found out only 10 percent of their server population had ever raided, and they didn't understand why. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to find out, if you stop, talk to people, listen to what they are saying, and shelf your ego. Sometimes it's not about what you want, it's about what they want. I don't believe CCP understands this just yet, and if they approach the entertainment industry with that same vein I sincerely doubt they will make much of an impact.
And while we are at it, what has CCP done really for the gaming industry thats revolutionary? Really, what? I'd love to know. Yes they have a pretty looking game, yes they have a very large playspace for their game, and hey... thats great to have. I love that myself. Capital Ship battles, while I've heard are fun take an insane amount of work I've also heard to get to. That for me was where I stopped so I never saw that part. Again, games should be fun out of the box... not fun eventually, and thats how I felt from playing. Their numbers I know started at only 1k subscriber base and it took them roughly 2 years just to hit 85k in numbers. Thats never a good sign with an MMO when you consider the averages of people online, and the segment of those internet users are gamers. So again I ask, what have they done thats really revolutionary? I don't see it, obviously many other people feel similiar because if they felt otherwise, they and myself would all be playing Eve. I for one absolutely love Sci-Fi. I wanted to like Eve, but unless it radically changes... I won't. So that puts us back to square one again.
I'm a skeptic with all things in the gaming industry, because everyone says that they have "the best thing coming" soon, and when it comes out, it's nothing but the "same old same old". Goes back to what I said earlier about everything in the gaming industry being "ego driven". Everyone has an opinion and nine times out of ten it's "their baby", or they get a little taste of success or the limelight and suddenly they can do no wrong, and no one elses opinion counts. if they should somehow happen to fix Eve, I say great. Again, I'd love to play a good Sci Fi game. If they make something fantastic as far as an Eve franchise goes, again great! I love good movies and other items in that vein. However, going by what I've seen... I maintain my stance and my opinion.
That's awesome news ! And the biggest to hit MMO-planet in quite some time !
Best of luck to the new company. Both White Wolf and CCP have brought great gaming products to the market in the past, raising the standards, and I have good faith the new company can also do so.
That, plus I can't wait to see what an White Wolf MMO would look like ! I think that with White Wolf on-board, chances are good they won't base a new MMO solely on the reputation of the IP, but also will want to make sure its a quality "AAA" MMO.
I already mentioned two sources where you can go do the research yourself. If you're unwilling to go look at the sources, then that really isn't my problem. You repeatedly asked, I repeatedly answered, especially considering I owe you nothing let alone your attitude here on the forums alone. Thats certainly very interesting regarding White Wolf seeing as how I never spoke nor worked with either of them ever. I worked with the Wieck brothers exclusively, barring a few other authors that were sent to me whom I counsoled on EQ lore to help them with their work. My work was "so bad" that it was plastered all over the EQ RPG website when the game was released, and when I told the Wieck's I was departing, they did everything they could to talk me into staying. They were good people, and I maintain that, and I'll stand by that... today, tomorrow, and the next day. Interesting that every time I draw out factual statements and/or back them up you feel the need to run into tirades and personal attacks. I honestly don't really know whether I should feel anger or pity.
Banegrivm Leader of the 1st Fist of Light www.1stfistoflight.com
Guys, may I remind you that seeing two complete strangers argue on a forum regarding personnal stuff just usually make people think both are silly because you both can't prove your points...
Originally posted by Holyavenger1 Guys, may I remind you that seeing two complete strangers argue on a forum regarding personnal stuff just usually make people think both are silly because you both can't prove your points...
At the main announcement and subsequent Q&A at Fanfest in Iceland yesterday the panel consisting of one WW guy and the reast CCP, said that WW would be brought in to develop the Eve IP further to allow more introductions to the Eve universe - so a tabletop Eve game (which has already been created in part and is playable) - is part of that strategy. But at the same time, they would be introducing new technology and play styles (such as bipedial avatars and interplanetary flight) which would be technology to eventually cross in to which ever WW IP they take in to the MMORPG environment. THey mentioned female gamers too, and ways of getting them more involved. But what they did state was that they WILL NOT be dumming Eve down.
Eve is a complex sandbox game, but it doesn't have to be "work". If you find it is like "work" then that means that the game's culture is playing you, and you are not incharge of your playstyle. According to official Eve statements at FanFest, there are around 150k active subscriptions to Eve (and plenty more lapsed accounts to haul back one day).
I think the way I understood the merger was that a new Shell company was being created to handle both CCP and WW, but I wasn't paying too much attention at that particular moment. Certainly WW has a smaller staff base that CCP, but WW will still wherever it is they are currently based and CCP base their main operations out of Iceland as they do currently.
Id ever heard of White Wolf (though I had seen their work without attributing it to them). The WW rep on the panel said that they were unwilling to hand over their IP to another company for development as an MMO. They wanted to retain some control over it. By merging with CCP, one of many companies they claimed to have had talks with, they will retain the level of control over what happens with their IP, whilst leaving the innovative technical stuff required to make a proper transition, over to guys with a successful and proven track record.
It was an interesting presentation and announcement, the anncouncement that Titans weren't supposed to be cost-effective because they were just "big d1cks" probably got the best laugh, but the tone seemed relatively jovial throughout.
Perhaps the weight of the beer on the table infron of the panel participants was a sign of what the relationship between the two merging companies will be like going forward.
Hello everyone, saw the news post on the main site and felt I'd show my support and add to the positive energy here. Can't wait to see what title/s come out of their offices.
Originally by Kieron on the EVE-O forums During his keynote speech yesterday, Hellmar announced the merger of CCP Games and White Wolf. Needless to say, this is big news in both industries, online gaming and traditional RPGs. The Press Release is available for reading.
So, what does this mean for the EVE Online community? In the short term, little has changed. CCP is the same company, a little larger but with a giant intellectual property for future expansions. The Dev team will continue to focus on EVE, but some of the technologies we are developing - full body avatars, and station environments & interaction - will be used as a foundation for future MMOGs based on the White Wolf intellectual properties.
White Wolf will be forging ahead with their talents for the future production of an EVE Online based traditional RPG and table top starship combat games, as well as miniatures (and there was much rejoicing!), comics, graphic novels, etc.
CCP will continue to expand the number of developers in CCP and in the near future begin production on a to be announced MMOG based on White Wolf's World of Darkness RPG setting. While we will be able to use some of the technologies I mentioned earlier, this game is still a number of years from alpha, let alone release.
I'm sure there are a number of questions that need to be answered, so ask them in this thread, I will do what I can do answer them.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
And while we are at it, what has CCP done really for the gaming industry thats revolutionary? Really, what? I'd love to know. Yes they have a pretty looking game, yes they have a very large playspace for their game, and hey... thats great to have. I love that myself. Capital Ship battles, while I've heard are fun take an insane amount of work I've also heard to get to. That for me was where I stopped so I never saw that part. Again, games should be fun out of the box... not fun eventually, and thats how I felt from playing. Their numbers I know started at only 1k subscriber base and it took them roughly 2 years just to hit 85k in numbers. Thats never a good sign with an MMO when you consider the averages of people online, and the segment of those internet users are gamers. So again I ask, what have they done thats really revolutionary? I don't see it, obviously many other people feel similiar because if they felt otherwise, they and myself would all be playing Eve. I for one absolutely love Sci-Fi. I wanted to like Eve, but unless it radically changes... I won't. So that puts us back to square one again.
Eve right now has gwon arround 50k each year. You quoted mmogchart.com but that page shows EVE having similar market share as it's main competitor SW:Galaxies and far above Earth and Beyond that used to be a competitor. So basically that place you quoted for showing in how much deep shit CCP is in shows them as one of the few that have steady and good growth. So what they don't have WoW numbers. It's a big understanding that you have to be the biggest to make money.
Eve usually has between 20k to 30k users online each. All in a single world (WoW caps at 3000 per world). So that should qualify for your request for someting EVE has done revelutionary. Another revolution they made is the most complex and amazing financial system in the game that is only topped by the real thing. Talk what you will about the gameplay. But from a pure question of the technology behind the scenes EVE tops everything.
Comments
CCP finished paying for the development cost a long time ago. The only expenses now are servers, bandwidth and salaries. At least as far as I know.
I agree that a company like Blizzard would be in trouble if it had EVE's market share. But for an independent european game developer this market share is way more than enough.
CCP finished paying for the development cost a long time ago. The only expenses now are servers, bandwidth and salaries. At least as far as I know.
I agree that a company like Blizzard would be in trouble if it had EVE's market share. But for an independent european game developer this market share is way more than enough.
Although you forget that in order for any company to grow that means positive cash infusion and on a regular basis. So they just bought White Wolf, but even White Wolf's profit margin is decreasing consistantly at a yearly basis. Great that they are fans of White Wolf, but being a fan won't help save a failing industry nor will it help two ailing companies suddenly be profitable or manageable fiscaly speaking for that matter. Honestly their distribution method is foolish. It would be fine if it was an addendum to an existing practice, but it's all they do. Secondarily, there are plenty of publishers/distributors out there, who do work on a global level without taking 75 percent off the top. Bottom line is that you need capital in order to push and expand your business outwards.
I do agree with the other poster that talked about the rewrites of the World of Darkness line. That was a big mistake with the fans on many many fronts. People have been complaining about this since Loraine Williams went nuts when she took the reigns of TSR over from Gygax and plopped out second edition AD&D. It's a never ending cycle, and better believe 4th edition D&D is already in the works and slated for release in 2011. Better believe that White Wolf will have another World of Darkness edition down the road too.
Banegrivm
Leader of the 1st Fist of Light
www.1stfistoflight.com
To me this is bad news, as a gamer. Hopefully they will prove me wrong.
Merging isn't something possible, 1 side always assimilate the other. CCP have the high-up, seems like they buy out WW...not merging.
They try to make it sound like it is 2 great companies...CCP achievements are...neglictables, in comparaison to WW achievements.
Kinda remind me when WotC did buy TSR, however WotC didn't ever say: "merging". In facts, WotC did just fine IMO, they focus on Eberron too much, but well, can't blame them. At least WotC did accomplish a significant success with Magic the Gathering. Not to mention, WotC was kinda assimilated by TSR, even if they buy it out, they allow it to be overtake their inhibitions. EvE isn't noteworthy, it is a niche inside of a niche...This sound like a catastrophic situation to me, oh well, farwell WW, it was nice knowing you guys, see ya in a the next life! CCP sounds like they have no idea what they are doing and that they are about to ruin everything.
I think I will go drink...a LOT!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
As I've said in another post on the forums, I think this is amazing and it means, for me anyways, that we're one step closer to finally having a Vampire (WoD) MMO that fans can be proud of playing. I have no doubt that out of many companys, CCP is one of the few that would be able to pull it off well and give it, it's much needed attention to detail.
As a huge fan of V:TM and now Vampire:Requiem I'm certainly a little worried. My first thoughts were things like, will the next Vampire book get pushed back in favor of developing the Eve sets/books, will some of the long term writers and staff on WW loose their jobs... things along that nature.
I'm still a little leary about all those questions but most of all I'm just really excited, this was a great surprise and for the first time in a long time I'm actually really stoked about a business move inside the industry. Could be a wonderful thing and I'll be on the edge of my seat till I hear more.
Big request to MMORPG.com staff. please find out more about the quote:
Conceptualization and early development has begun to bring White Wolf's World of Darkness, one of the world's strongest gaming properties, into the online world."
When and if you can... pretty please, with cherrys on top
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What proof do you gentleman have of CCP's supposed 'financial troubles?'
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
I'm am so excited. The world best tabletop game to be turned into an MMORPG?
That's absolutely fantastic. I can't wait.
You don't seem to have a clue about what you post about. You don't seem to have any idea of the massive costs needed to keep an MMO competitive these days.
You think game servers just run on their own? How about those game download servers they will need if they don't sell the game via shops on DVDs (which CCP do anyway). How about those constant content updates, I'm sure they don't write themselves.
You can't even argue against my point because modern MMO costs is one of the main reasons why we've seen Sigil jump in with SOE and Mythic with EA.
CCP are just showing us that there is more than one way to skin a cat.Bane has absolutely zero proof, and hes also a great kisser
I personally know folks from both CCP and White Wolf neither company is strapped for cash; in fact both companies have done quite well for themselves recently. This is a growth opportunity nothing more. WW wants to be a major player in online entertainment, CCP wants to expand its line to the offline sector, WW doesnt want to touch one of the supposed Giants because they aren't going to be here in five years, and CCP doesnt want Hasborg anywhere near their baby. It is as simple as that. What we the fans are going to get in return is an IP that will span across all mediums Games books and yes even films. As much was said ther are so many things that still haven't been revealed...it is an exciting time to be an EvE fan,
Trust me the Big Three are trembiling under their desk at this news.
Banegrivm
Leader of the 1st Fist of Light
www.1stfistoflight.com
Make love not war guys.
Lets focus on the topic and not on each other.
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
It better not be Vampires in Space or some lame thing like that
I played Eve, it's a good game but not for me. I really hope they capture the feeling of the World of Darkness game. The story of the game is great I just hope they stick to it and not butcher it just to be innovative
I don't have an issue with that Razor, but spreading outright BS like Bane is currently doing and has a long history of doing both in the games he plays and on forums is a bit irritating.
Right now EvE fans and WW fans are naturally concerned about the implications of this merger, the last thing they need is someone with a long history of social engineering to come along and say they are doing it because they are both broke. That is libelous and spins this into something negative, which it isn't.
Most logical people in the industry know that neither one of these companies are hurting, but Joe average fan doesnt; garbage like this isn't productive nor should it be welcome. I'm certain that in the coming weeks MMORPG.com will have an opportunity to talk with both Hilmar and Mike about the implications of all of this but until that happens the last thing the community needs are Outhouse experts spreading disinformation.
I don't have an issue with that Razor, but spreading outright BS like Bane is currently doing and has a long history of doing both in the games he plays and on forums is a bit irritating.
Right now EvE fans and WW fans are naturally concerned about the implications of this merger, the last thing they need is someone with a long history of social engineering to come along and say they are doing it because they are both broke. That is libelous and spins this into something negative, which it isn't.
Most logical people in the industry know that neither one of these companies are hurting, but Joe average fan doesnt; garbage like this isn't productive nor should it be welcome. I'm certain that in the coming weeks MMORPG.com will have an opportunity to talk with both Hilmar and Mike about the implications of all of this but until that happens the last thing the community needs are Outhouse experts spreading disinformation.
You know, the more I read what you write... the more you remind me of a certain group of troublemakers that I had the displeasure of running into. If you truly knew me of course, as you lay the claim to... you'lld know I only speak fact when I speak based off of knowledge. I also offer proof of my facts as I did in the past with source material, and as I did yet again in this very thread... in black and white no less. The "BS" you ever so quaintly refer to would be the lore of EQ obviously from the Codex of War, again... very same tone from same group that was well known to harass me and my fellow guildmates. My "BS" as you call it was also why I was hired to work on the EQ RPG by White Wolf/SOE. I left the project midway through working on the Game Masters Guide to pursue another project (currently unannounced) in the gaming industry which I'm currently involved in. You should really stop being libelous yourself before running around pointing fingers and making rampant off the hook accusations. I didn't appreciate it then, and I certainly do not appreciate it now, nor will I tolerate it.
I have no doubt that representives of one or both companies will put a spin on it. Anyone can see there's already been a spin via the "merger" that clearly isn't, for anyone that understands how corporate structures operate. Thats typical for the business world. How many people come out with an announcement and say they are doing terrible? The table top industry is hurting in a major way right now, more so then ever. Don't believe me? Go look up in Comics & Games Retailer for yourself. Compare the dwindling revenues over the last few years. They are dropping consistantly each year. Then go to a hobby and games shop, IF you can find one (as many have been shutting their doors) and ask about the distributors for table top games over the last few years and find out how many of them are still in business or more importantly closed their doors because of a lack thereof. While your at it, ask them how many hobby shops that dealt with table top games are still around as many are now gone. If you do this, I think you'll be surprised. What you're being told versus the factual implication of whats been ongoing is completely different.
I'm glad you think CCP is great and that you have friends there, but there are a great deal of people that do not. They may be good people, and hey thats great. I know alot of really nice and good hearted people in the gaming industry, but I don't share in their gaming philosophies. Am I included in that segment of people that doesn't care for Eve? Absolutely, the game is more work to me, and games are supposed to be about having fun... not working. If I have to "work" in a game, then it's no longer fun, and most people out there want to have fun. This is why Blizzard is trying to take WoW in a totally different direction away from the raiding. The devs even admitted at Blizzcon that they found out only 10 percent of their server population had ever raided, and they didn't understand why. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to find out, if you stop, talk to people, listen to what they are saying, and shelf your ego. Sometimes it's not about what you want, it's about what they want. I don't believe CCP understands this just yet, and if they approach the entertainment industry with that same vein I sincerely doubt they will make much of an impact.
And while we are at it, what has CCP done really for the gaming industry thats revolutionary? Really, what? I'd love to know. Yes they have a pretty looking game, yes they have a very large playspace for their game, and hey... thats great to have. I love that myself. Capital Ship battles, while I've heard are fun take an insane amount of work I've also heard to get to. That for me was where I stopped so I never saw that part. Again, games should be fun out of the box... not fun eventually, and thats how I felt from playing. Their numbers I know started at only 1k subscriber base and it took them roughly 2 years just to hit 85k in numbers. Thats never a good sign with an MMO when you consider the averages of people online, and the segment of those internet users are gamers. So again I ask, what have they done thats really revolutionary? I don't see it, obviously many other people feel similiar because if they felt otherwise, they and myself would all be playing Eve. I for one absolutely love Sci-Fi. I wanted to like Eve, but unless it radically changes... I won't. So that puts us back to square one again.
I'm a skeptic with all things in the gaming industry, because everyone says that they have "the best thing coming" soon, and when it comes out, it's nothing but the "same old same old". Goes back to what I said earlier about everything in the gaming industry being "ego driven". Everyone has an opinion and nine times out of ten it's "their baby", or they get a little taste of success or the limelight and suddenly they can do no wrong, and no one elses opinion counts. if they should somehow happen to fix Eve, I say great. Again, I'd love to play a good Sci Fi game. If they make something fantastic as far as an Eve franchise goes, again great! I love good movies and other items in that vein. However, going by what I've seen... I maintain my stance and my opinion.
Best Regards,
George Doutrich
EQ RPG Author
AKA...
Banegrivm
Leader of the 1st Fist of Light
www.1stfistoflight.com
I have no doubt that representives of one or both companies will put a spin on it. Anyone can see there's already been a spin via the "merger" that clearly isn't, for anyone that understands how corporate structures operate. Thats typical for the business world. How many people come out with an announcement and say they are doing terrible? The table top industry is hurting in a major way right now, more so then ever. Don't believe me? Go look up in Comics & Games Retailer for yourself. Compare the dwindling revenues over the last few years. They are dropping consistantly each year. Then go to a hobby and games shop, IF you can find one (as many have been shutting their doors) and ask about the distributors for table top games over the last few years and find out how many of them are still in business or more importantly closed their doors because of a lack thereof. While your at it, ask them how many hobby shops that dealt with table top games are still around as many are now gone. If you do this, I think you'll be surprised. What you're being told versus the factual implication of whats been ongoing is completely different.
I'm glad you think CCP is great and that you have friends there, but there are a great deal of people that do not. They may be good people, and hey thats great. I know alot of really nice and good hearted people in the gaming industry, but I don't share in their gaming philosophies. Am I included in that segment of people that doesn't care for Eve? Absolutely, the game is more work to me, and games are supposed to be about having fun... not working. If I have to "work" in a game, then it's no longer fun, and most people out there want to have fun. This is why Blizzard is trying to take WoW in a totally different direction away from the raiding. The devs even admitted at Blizzcon that they found out only 10 percent of their server population had ever raided, and they didn't understand why. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to find out, if you stop, talk to people, listen to what they are saying, and shelf your ego. Sometimes it's not about what you want, it's about what they want. I don't believe CCP understands this just yet, and if they approach the entertainment industry with that same vein I sincerely doubt they will make much of an impact.
And while we are at it, what has CCP done really for the gaming industry thats revolutionary? Really, what? I'd love to know. Yes they have a pretty looking game, yes they have a very large playspace for their game, and hey... thats great to have. I love that myself. Capital Ship battles, while I've heard are fun take an insane amount of work I've also heard to get to. That for me was where I stopped so I never saw that part. Again, games should be fun out of the box... not fun eventually, and thats how I felt from playing. Their numbers I know started at only 1k subscriber base and it took them roughly 2 years just to hit 85k in numbers. Thats never a good sign with an MMO when you consider the averages of people online, and the segment of those internet users are gamers. So again I ask, what have they done thats really revolutionary? I don't see it, obviously many other people feel similiar because if they felt otherwise, they and myself would all be playing Eve. I for one absolutely love Sci-Fi. I wanted to like Eve, but unless it radically changes... I won't. So that puts us back to square one again.
I'm a skeptic with all things in the gaming industry, because everyone says that they have "the best thing coming" soon, and when it comes out, it's nothing but the "same old same old". Goes back to what I said earlier about everything in the gaming industry being "ego driven". Everyone has an opinion and nine times out of ten it's "their baby", or they get a little taste of success or the limelight and suddenly they can do no wrong, and no one elses opinion counts. if they should somehow happen to fix Eve, I say great. Again, I'd love to play a good Sci Fi game. If they make something fantastic as far as an Eve franchise goes, again great! I love good movies and other items in that vein. However, going by what I've seen... I maintain my stance and my opinion.
Best Regards,
George Doutrich
EQ RPG Author
AKA...
Best of luck to the new company. Both White Wolf and CCP have brought great gaming products to the market in the past, raising the standards, and I have good faith the new company can also do so.
That, plus I can't wait to see what an White Wolf MMO would look like ! I think that with White Wolf on-board, chances are good they won't base a new MMO solely on the reputation of the IP, but also will want to make sure its a quality "AAA" MMO.
Banegrivm
Leader of the 1st Fist of Light
www.1stfistoflight.com
So what about taking all this to email ?
Thanks, sincerely,
Black Gorath Bris'Elfes
G
Eve is a complex sandbox game, but it doesn't have to be "work". If you find it is like "work" then that means that the game's culture is playing you, and you are not incharge of your playstyle. According to official Eve statements at FanFest, there are around 150k active subscriptions to Eve (and plenty more lapsed accounts to haul back one day).
I think the way I understood the merger was that a new Shell company was being created to handle both CCP and WW, but I wasn't paying too much attention at that particular moment. Certainly WW has a smaller staff base that CCP, but WW will still wherever it is they are currently based and CCP base their main operations out of Iceland as they do currently.
Id ever heard of White Wolf (though I had seen their work without attributing it to them). The WW rep on the panel said that they were unwilling to hand over their IP to another company for development as an MMO. They wanted to retain some control over it. By merging with CCP, one of many companies they claimed to have had talks with, they will retain the level of control over what happens with their IP, whilst leaving the innovative technical stuff required to make a proper transition, over to guys with a successful and proven track record.
It was an interesting presentation and announcement, the anncouncement that Titans weren't supposed to be cost-effective because they were just "big d1cks" probably got the best laugh, but the tone seemed relatively jovial throughout.
Perhaps the weight of the beer on the table infron of the panel participants was a sign of what the relationship between the two merging companies will be like going forward.
Hello everyone, saw the news post on the main site and felt I'd show my support and add to the positive energy here. Can't wait to see what title/s come out of their offices.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
Eve right now has gwon arround 50k each year. You quoted mmogchart.com but that page shows EVE having similar market share as it's main competitor SW:Galaxies and far above Earth and Beyond that used to be a competitor. So basically that place you quoted for showing in how much deep shit CCP is in shows them as one of the few that have steady and good growth. So what they don't have WoW numbers. It's a big understanding that you have to be the biggest to make money.
Eve usually has between 20k to 30k users online each. All in a single world (WoW caps at 3000 per world). So that should qualify for your request for someting EVE has done revelutionary. Another revolution they made is the most complex and amazing financial system in the game that is only topped by the real thing. Talk what you will about the gameplay. But from a pure question of the technology behind the scenes EVE tops everything.