Right all of this was laid out at fanfest. CCP has increased its employees from 55 to 700, that is phenomenal growth. Anyone with half a brain knows that mmorpgchart isn't anywhere near factual as it doesnt take in account number of concurrent active subscribers, nor dose it account for subscriber attrition. But the WoW fanbois love to use it a Gospel....it was funny to see them squirm at Comic Con when Blizzard lead designer Rob Pardo told them it wasn't accurate.
No CCP doesnt have the largest fan base. Jerry Springer has a larger fan base than David Frost, that doesnt mean that Jerry is an intelligent thought provoking person, it only means that there are more Trailer Park Rednecks than literate people.
I also wanted to point out that while yes many Pen & Paper RPG and tabletop companies are failing the stronger ones however are thriving. Games workshop, Wizards Of the Coast, Privateer press and Rackham (thanks to AT-43.) have all seen growth in the past five years. White Wolf showed an increase in profits of 5.69% in 2004 and another increase of 2.38% in 2005. Not bad for a company that is "going under".
The market is there for quality games, the consumer is just a bit more mature and will no longer spend their hard earned money on crap.
CCP is a company that is growing and finding its place in the world, their developers are respected in the industry (I know several top SOE and Blizzard designers that now work for them) whats more they are gamers 1st and foremost. No their game may not appeal to the masses and does require an I.Q. above 84 to play; Everything need not be fast-food.
Originally posted by JonGretar
Eve right now has gwon arround 50k each year. You quoted mmogchart.com but that page shows EVE having similar market share as it's main competitor SW:Galaxies and far above Earth and Beyond that used to be a competitor. So basically that place you quoted for showing in how much deep shit CCP is in shows them as one of the few that have steady and good growth. So what they don't have WoW numbers. It's a big understanding that you have to be the biggest to make money.
Eve usually has between 20k to 30k users online each. All in a single world (WoW caps at 3000 per world). So that should qualify for your request for someting EVE has done revelutionary. Another revolution they made is the most complex and amazing financial system in the game that is only topped by the real thing. Talk what you will about the gameplay. But from a pure question of the technology behind the scenes EVE tops everything.
Just a slight correction. There are 700 people who touch the EVE project in one form or another. The CCP employee count itself went from 55 to 200 if I remember correctly from the slides. Still, Pretty impressive.
Just a slight correction. There are 700 people who touch the EVE project in one form or another. The CCP employee count itself went from 55 to 200 if I remember correctly from the slides. Still, Pretty impressive.
I stand corrected. And yes that is impressive. It is also the company designers want to be right now, my friend that was lucky enough to attend fanfest told me that Reynir Hardarson was telling folks that the last developer position that was opened a CCP received over two hundred applicants, most of whom are veterans in the industry and working on projects right now. This is why its laughable when someone shows up and paints CCP as a company thats holding on by the skin of its teeth.
On the WW side Stewart, Steve and Mike has had online companies knocking it's door down and offering them Truck Loads of cash to develop a MMO for the past Four years. If they were desperate as Bane falsely paints them they would have taken SOE's or Microsofts offer
I personally am excited about this merger. I found EVE to be a very well made game with alot of attention to detail. I used to play WoD games a few years back. To see that both of these companies merge is an exciting time. The possibilities are there for a great game.
Just a slight correction. There are 700 people who touch the EVE project in one form or another. The CCP employee count itself went from 55 to 200 if I remember correctly from the slides. Still, Pretty impressive.
I stand corrected. And yes that is impressive. It is also the company designers want to be right now, my friend that was lucky enough to attend fanfest told me that Reynir Hardarson was telling folks that the last developer position that was opened a CCP received over two hundred applicants, most of whom are veterans in the industry and working on projects right now. This is why its laughable when someone shows up and paints CCP as a company thats holding on by the skin ofits teeth.
On the WW side Stewart, Steve and Mike has had online companies knocking it's door down and offering them Truck Loads of cash to develop a MMO for the past Four years. If they were desperate as Bane falsely paints them they would have taken SOE's or Microsofts offer
As to MMO Charts, I take anything that comes out of Pardo's mouth with a grain of salt. There's an old saying, consider the source. This is the same guy that also said that certain uber guild devs were "nice people" even though they spit in peoples faces and tear them up on the internet "just because". I didn't paint anything falsely, I simply looked at things as they were based off of facts, not on another persons say so. I prefer hard evidence. Say so is like a group of people sitting in a circle telling a story from one person to the next and by the time it gets to the last person it's a completely different story.
You yourself even admitted that they were in need of capital in your first post in this very thread. Nothing false about it. Nothing bad about it either. I enjoyed White Wolf and still do. Fact is, most gaming companies in the table top industry are hurting right now. It's across the board. Hogshead, West End Games, and even Fasa are gone now just to name a few, and Paladium is barely on it's feet last I heard from distributors.
Originally posted by martinj63 Actually this has been in the works for over a year. I first heard about it from a friend that works at WW during Dragoncon 04. WW really needs some positive cash flow and Licensing it's titles to crap companies like SOE, or EA isn't something they were willing to do. They know that CCP will never be sold off to a corperate Giant, and they know that CCP is all about making great Online games.Don't look for a WoD or a VtM game anytime soon however. One thing that WW and CCP agree on is they absolutely DO NOT want to create a MMO that will turn into one massive Cyb0r session due to the Lunatic Fringe fan base that WW has managed to gather (They actually detest these people one trip to DC or any other WW gatherings leave little doubt about that and they have done everything possible to drive this contingent away.) So CCP and WW will be working out how to make the game they want that won't be hijacked by the nut jobs.
As to Eve the comments about Eve and being revolutionary, I don't see it. It's still running on cluster server technology, and thats nothing new at all. I really don't see anything unique about 30k people being online either or revolutionary. Maybe I'm misterpretting you here, but from what you're telling me, I just don't see how that really impacts the gaming industry, or the technologies relevant thereof. As to the financial systems in place, again... not really very revolutionary considering it's a fundamental design flaw to any game that bills itself a role playing game. In short role playing games are supposed to be about story, something you can interact with and be apart of, and thats something that is sorely missing from MMO games these days across the board.
Banegrivm Leader of the 1st Fist of Light www.1stfistoflight.com
Originally posted by Banegrivm As to Eve the comments about Eve and being revolutionary, I don't see it. It's still running on cluster server technology, and thats nothing new at all. I really don't see anything unique about 30k people being online either or revolutionary. Maybe I'm misterpretting you here, but from what you're telling me, I just don't see how that really impacts the gaming industry, or the technologies relevant thereof. As to the financial systems in place, again... not really very revolutionary considering it's a fundamental design flaw to any game that bills itself a role playing game. In short role playing games are supposed to be about story, something you can interact with and be apart of, and thats something that is sorely missing from MMO games these days across the board.
EVE doesn't bill itself to be an RPG, it just name it self a MMOG.
From their FAQ: 1.1 What is EVE Online? EVE is a massive multiplayer online game (MMOG) set in a science-fiction based, persistent world. Players take the role of spaceship pilots seeking fame, fortune, and adventure in a huge, complex, exciting, and sometimes hostile galaxy.
That said there are more roleplay going on in EVE than most other so called mmoRPGs and it's one of the few mmog on the market where your roleplay actually can have permanent effect on the gaming world and its story.
EVE's server cluster is large enough to be on the top 500 supercomputers in the world. And it's the only game cluster to be there. It also has the largest number of simultaneously users in a persistent world. They have done something that none has done or even come close to doing before. What is not revolutionary with that?
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
That snippet from their FAQ doesn't mean that they don't bill themself out as an RPG. If you notice the way they address MMO's in general, they do it across the board. Yes, I'll say again... whats revolutionary about it? The tech is old tech. Nothing new, it's something thats been doable for a long time now, just no ones done it. Role play is all fine and great, if you're talking about role playing like in a chat room on the internet. I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about truly being able to interact with the story... and thats something I've yet to see out of any game, and Eve certainly isn't any exception to that. Theres a big difference between role playing, and role playing in the context of a role playing game. I'm speaking specifically with deference to the later.
Banegrivm Leader of the 1st Fist of Light www.1stfistoflight.com
Originally posted by Harafnir WHAT!!??? Well... Ok.... After the initial shock has calmed down... And the stunned surprise is about to relax its grip... SO out of the blue... I feel real good about this. I have never been a paying subsciber of EVE since the game style do not fit my personality, but I have always been impressed by their originality and way of working. They have really built a game likeno other out there, from scratch, and even if the launch was less than succesful, they have continued with improvements and never given up, and in that way created a game with a huge buzz, tons of followers and an enourmus respect in the game development community. CCP has proven thier worth in more ways than one and I think hundreds of thousands of peole are real curious what they will do next. Then White Wolf...that created one of the THE most succesful RPGs of modern times, straight from scratch as well, and created tons of material for those campaigns, in several different settings. We all can guess what kind of MMO this will lead to. How big it will be noone can say, will it be only Vamps... or maybe ALL the different creatures of WoD? Will it be a town.. or a whole planet with all its cultural differences.. Noone can say anythign for sure.. But we can be sure of one thing. This time... The game will REALLY be something noone has ever seen before. These are not the copycats. CCP and White Wolf will both aim to create something new and exciting that will blow the competition away. For them its not a sales pitch.. Its just the way they have always worked. Now we can only hope.... ( a slim hope, but we have to hang on to it)... the big giants, EA and SOE both WILL be interested in this and they WILL be ready to throw tons of money to buy this concept and call it thier own, and mess it up as everythign else.... We can only hope CCP and White Wolf have the economy together to keep them at bay... I would hate to see such a brilliant future be swallowed up by the big dinosaurs that turn any genious concept idea into "Kiddie Game part 3.472, Extra Kiddie Edition"
Originally posted by Banegrivm As to Eve the comments about Eve and being revolutionary, I don't see it. It's still running on cluster server technology, and thats nothing new at all. I really don't see anything unique about 30k people being online either or revolutionary. Maybe I'm misterpretting you here, but from what you're telling me, I just don't see how that really impacts the gaming industry, or the technologies relevant thereof. As to the financial systems in place, again... not really very revolutionary considering it's a fundamental design flaw to any game that bills itself a role playing game. In short role playing games are supposed to be about story, something you can interact with and be apart of, and thats something that is sorely missing from MMO games these days across the board.
EVE doesn't bill itself to be an RPG, it just name it self a MMOG.
From their FAQ: 1.1 What is EVE Online? EVE is a massive multiplayer online game (MMOG) set in a science-fiction based, persistent world. Players take the role of spaceship pilots seeking fame, fortune, and adventure in a huge, complex, exciting, and sometimes hostile galaxy.
That said there are more roleplay going on in EVE than most other so called mmoRPGs and it's one of the few mmog on the market where your roleplay actually can have permanent effect on the gaming world and its story.
EVE's server cluster is large enough to be on the top 500 supercomputers in the world. And it's the only game cluster to be there. It also has the largest number of simultaneously users in a persistent world. They have done something that none has done or even come close to doing before. What is not revolutionary with that?
NO matter how you present it, youre not going to get through to him guy; it's all part of the specialness of being Bane. /ignore works much better. Fortunately White wolf or CCP doesnt need him to succeed.
Originally posted by Banegrivm As to Eve the comments about Eve and being revolutionary, I don't see it. It's still running on cluster server technology, and thats nothing new at all. I really don't see anything unique about 30k people being online either or revolutionary. Maybe I'm misterpretting you her e, but from what you're telling me, I just don't see how that really impacts the gaming industry, or the technologies relevant thereof. As to the financial systems in place, again... not really very revolutionary considering it's a fundamental design flaw to any game that bills itself a role playing game. In short role playing games are supposed to be about story, something you can interact with and be apart of, and thats something that is sorely missing from MMO games these days across the board.
EVE doesn't bill itself to be an RPG, it just name it self a MMOG.
From their FAQ: 1.1 What is EVE Online? EVE is a massive multiplayer online game (MMOG) set in a science-fiction based, persistent world. Players take the role of spaceship pilots seeking fame, fortune, and adventure in a huge, complex, exciting, and sometimes hostile galaxy.
That said there are more roleplay going on in EVE than most other so called mmoRPGs and it's one of the few mmog on the market where your roleplay actually can have permanent effect on the gaming world and its story.
EVE's server cluster is large enough to be on the top 500 supercomputers in the world. And it's the only game cluster to be there. It also has the largest number of simultaneously users in a persistent world. They have done something that none has done or even come close to doing before. What is not revolutionary with that?
NO matter how you present it, youre not going to get through to him guy; it's all part of the specialness of being Bane. /ignore works much better. Fortunately White wolf or CCP doesnt need him to succeed.
I'm not going to apologize for looking at things with logic and reason. I really can't help it if you're unable or unwilling to do the same. Plenty of people have changed my mind and opinions about various things over the years, but they didn't get me to change my opinion by taking cheap shots and making personal attacks at me. They did it through rational and logical thought processes.
Banegrivm Leader of the 1st Fist of Light www.1stfistoflight.com
I'm not going to apologize for looking at things with logic and reason. I really can't help it if you're unable or unwilling to do the same. Plenty of people have changed my mind and opinions about various things over the years, but they didn't get me to change my opinion by taking cheap shots and making personal attacks at me. They did it through rational and logical thought processes.
It's the lack of logic that bugs me. You pointed to some place to prove your point that CCP is hurting. That place actually showed that CCP is growing. You ignore the fact that EVE's customer base has almost doubled in a short time. You ignore the fact that CCP has trippled in staff and you ignore the fact that they had spare money to but White Wolf. You ignore the fact that CCP built new offices for 200 people. Those are not actions of a company that is hurting financially.
The fact simply is that CCP's financial situation is booming. It's just simply a fact. You just lack the logic and reason to point at to support what you are saying. Please point me out to ANY place that tells me otherwise.
Originally posted by JonGretar I'm not going to apologize for looking at things with logic and reason. I really can't help it if you're unable or unwilling to do the same. Plenty of people have changed my mind and opinions about various things over the years, but they didn't get me to change my opinion by taking cheap shots and making personal attacks at me. They did it through rational and logical thought processes.
It's the lack of logic that bugs me. You pointed to some place to prove your point that CCP is hurting. That place actually showed that CCP is growing. You ignore the fact that EVE's customer base has almost doubled in a short time. You ignore the fact that CCP has trippled in staff and you ignore the fact that they had spare money to but White Wolf. You ignore the fact that CCP built new offices for 200 people. Those are not actions of a company that is hurting financially.
The fact simply is that CCP's financial situation is booming. It's just simply a fact. You just lack the logic and reason to point at to support what you are saying. Please point me out to ANY place that tells me otherwise.
Thats all heresay for the most part, as you yourself and martin have all said "you have friends", you've given no credibility to your statements outside of "it's your friends" or "friends of friends". Is Eve growing? Sure if you consider 300k on a global scale, and thats only when they expand into other countries. Also keep in mind thats a global scale, and thats not really saying alot in retrospect. That number will rise as they break into other countries, but then they have to maintain that, while keeping equitable profit margins, and thats something altogether different. Go back and consider the numbers of people online globaly, then consider the amount of those people who are gamers out of that segment. Most people don't want a hard core game like Eve, its a niche market. Is there a market for it? Sure there is, as long as people are willing to pay for it there is. Most people in business go where they know the money is, thats just smart business.
Banegrivm Leader of the 1st Fist of Light www.1stfistoflight.com
Originally posted by Banegrivm That snippet from their FAQ doesn't mean that they don't bill themself out as an RPG. If you notice the way they address MMO's in general, they do it across the board. Yes, I'll say again... whats revolutionary about it? The tech is old tech. Nothing new, it's something thats been doable for a long time now, just no ones done it. Role play is all fine and great, if you're talking about role playing like in a chat room on the internet. I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about truly being able to interact with the story... and thats something I've yet to see out of any game, and Eve certainly isn't any exception to that. Theres a big difference between role playing, and role playing in the context of a role playing game. I'm speaking specifically with deference to the later.
If that snippet doesn't mean anything then please disprove me (we are not the only ones that should be forced to prove our statements, so for you have not proven any of yours) and find one place on the eve-o site where they say they are an rpg. Not that it really matters what they are.
"just no ones done it" That's the thing isn't it. CCP has done something none else have done. They have changed how an mmog is run from several smaller copies of the world to one large. That's the definition of the word "revolutionary", "constituting or bringing about a major or fundamental change" quoted from webster.
As for how the roleplaying is done I am not talking about chat rooms I am talking about your actions changing the world. One easy example would be Amarr succession, when a new Amarr emperor (Amarr is the largest of the 4 major empires in eve) needs to be appointed the candidates choose one or more champion to fight for him in ship to ship combat. The winner also get the throne. In the game amarrian players where allowed to participate in a tournament that could earn them the prestige to be chosen as a champion and then finally fight to determine who of the 5 candidates would become the next emperor.
There are lots of similar examples but what is more important are the areas outside the major empires influence (in eve called 0.0 due to this being the security status of these systems, no security at all). Here the players make their own empires and write their own stories and their actions influence the day to day life of a large part of the eve player population.
The Great Northern War comes to mind where due to both events in chat rooms and actions ingame resulted in a huge war covering the whole norther part of 0.0 space. This war lasted several months and had an effect on ALL players of eve. One rare but important mineral used in ship building where only available in the north but due to this war almost none where mined and shipped back to empire which meant the prices went sky high.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
hats all heresay for the most part, as you yourself and martin have all said "you have friends", you've given no credibility to your statements outside of "it's your friends" or "friends of friends". Is Eve growing? Sure if you consider 300k on a global scale, and thats only when they expand into other countries. Also keep in mind thats a global scale, and thats not really saying alot in retrospect. That number will rise as they break into other countries, but then they have to maintain that, and thats something altogether different. Go back and consider the numbers of people online globaly, then consider the amount of those people who are gamers out of that segment. Most people don't want a hard core game like Eve, its a niche market. Is there a market for it? Sure there is, as long as people are willing to pay for it there is. Most people in business go where they know the money is, thats just smart business.
You are seriously misunderstanding how this works because it is YOU who were making statments and it is YOU who need to show credebility to it. YOU were saying that CCP was in financial trouble without pointing to ANY sources. That is why WE think that YOU are just making statments more out YOUR emotions rather than looking at ANY facts.
I have made my claim. I have not pointed to any of my friends in CCP as sources or anything like that. My only point was that you were just makin shit up without having anything to prove it with. My statements on growing number of players, employees and new offices and a merger with white wolf are pure and simple facts. Here is a link to Hilmar the CEO of CCP stating all those facts. Yesterday. http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0611/eve-11nov-1800.avi
Your turn. Bring some facts to the table. I asked you before to bring them and you just simply decided to ignore that request.
Originally posted by Banegrivm Thats all heresay for the most part, as you yourself and martin have all said "you have friends", you've given no credibility to your statements outside of "it's your friends" or "friends of friends". Is Eve growing? Sure if you consider 300k on a global scale, and thats only when they expand into other countries. Also keep in mind thats a global scale, and thats not really saying alot in retrospect. That number will rise as they break into other countries, but then they have to maintain that, while keeping equitable profit margins, and thats something altogether different. Go back and consider the numbers of people online globaly, then consider the amount of those people who are gamers out of that segment. Most people don't want a hard core game like Eve, its a niche market. Is there a market for it? Sure there is, as long as people are willing to pay for it there is. Most people in business go where they know the money is, thats just smart business.
So what the CCP staff themselves say in speeches at the fanfest is hearsay now? In that case what constitutes are proof?
Eve have only once made any specific expansion into another country and that was china just a few months ago. But none of the numbers stated here about eves growth include the china numbers so it's a moot subject. EVE grow without expanding into other countries.
So CCP comming in with a 2.6m $ budget and around 5 people 6 years ago to now having 145 employees and making 2m $ per month is not smart business? Yes it is a niche market but a niche market they have conquered totally. If that's not a success story what is? (and the number is quote here are taken from slides the CCP CEO showed during his speech at the fanfest this weekend so they are not hearsay).
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
Originally posted by Banegrivm Originally posted by JonGretar I'm not going to apologize for looking at things with logic and reason. I really can't help it if you're unable or unwilling to do the same. Plenty of people have changed my mind and opinions about various things over the years, but they didn't get me to change my opinion by taking cheap shots and making personal attacks at me. They did it through rational and logical thought processes.
It's the lack of logic that bugs me. You pointed to some place to prove your point that CCP is hurting. That place actually showed that CCP is growing. You ignore the fact that EVE's customer base has almost doubled in a short time. You ignore the fact that CCP has trippled in staff and you ignore the fact that they had spare money to but White Wolf. You ignore the fact that CCP built new offices for 200 people. Those are not actions of a company that is hurting financially.
The fact simply is that CCP's financial situation is booming. It's just simply a fact. You just lack the logic and reason to point at to support what you are saying. Please point me out to ANY place that tells me otherwise.
Thats all heresay for the most part, as you yourself and martin have all said "you have friends", you've given no credibility to your statements outside of "it's your friends" or "friends of friends". Is Eve growing? Sure if you consider 300k on a global scale, and thats only when they expand into other countries. Also keep in mind thats a global scale, and thats not really saying alot in retrospect. That number will rise as they break into other countries, but then they have to maintain that, while keeping equitable profit margins, and thats something altogether different. Go back and consider the numbers of people online globaly, then consider the amount of those people who are gamers out of that segment. Most people don't want a hard core game like Eve, its a niche market. Is there a market for it? Sure there is, as long as people are willing to pay for it there is. Most people in business go where they know the money is, thats just smart business. Like I told your friend martin, feel free to go look at the MMO Charts site. You'll see they have a whole 1 percent of the market share. That's not much in the way of growth really. As I also stated many times over while citing examples that are easy enough to check up on, the table top gaming industry is in hard hard times. Many analysts don't think the industry is going to survive at the rate its going, and that the only people left in the end will be people like White Wolf who are now acquired, and Hasbro/WoTC. As to how it works, I know exactly how it works. Are you aware of the logistics, the costs of running a business, buildings, permits, licences, staff requirements, properties, etc. that all add up to operating expenses? Add into that the capacity of the fact that they have to make a profit after covering costs of doing business. I'm glad you take the words of Hilmar verbatim, but thats hardly a fact. Thats a statement, nothing more, nothing less. Seeing is believing. I know what I see with my own eyes and I'm quite clear and capable of making decisions based off of what I see. You know, just not long ago Smedley said how SWG was going to dethrone WoW. Still waiting on that one. Again, seeing is believing. I'm not entirely discounting Hilmar's statements, but I don't believe it either.
As per your request Mcreag about Eve and it's "RPG" status. In their own writing no less. Thats definitely interesting reading more about the story of Eve and the events. Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like what your telling me is that there is alot of PvP/RP oriented events, which me being a big PvP'er that sounds like it would be alot of fun. I'm curious though, as I never saw it while I played, do they have actual GM events where GM's get involved and push story into the game and players can interact with?
Banegrivm Leader of the 1st Fist of Light www.1stfistoflight.com
Pure ignorance huh? So thats why I backed up my opinion with facts. Sorry you can't cope with the fact that someone has an opinion/belief that differs from yours. Not everyone in life is going to agree with you, and if you can't learn that now you're only setting yourself up for alot of hurt down the road. If these forums had an ignore function you'lld already know what I think about your "attention".
Banegrivm Leader of the 1st Fist of Light www.1stfistoflight.com
Originally posted by Banegrivm Pure ignorance huh? So thats why I backed up my opinion with facts. Sorry you can't cope with the fact that someone has an opinion/belief that differs from yours. Not everyone in life is going to agree with you, and if you can't learn that now you're only setting yourself up for alot of hurt down the road. If these forums had an ignore function you'lld already know what I think about your "attention".
I think I believe you more than the others, but at this point, the only real numbers we have are from CCP, and I don't think they have any reason to not spin it in a way that sheds them in the best light. They really never had to let anyone know about their real financial shape ever since they separated from their publisher. The only one that knows is the tax man, and they won't talk.
That all changes when they have to start working with a distribution network again to get White Wolf into retail stores. Someone, somewhere is going to know the real truth when you start dealing with buyers, and distributors.
Frankly, the sub numbers, employees, new office, etc. doesn't tell me much about the financial shape. They can be increasing in all of those areas, and still go broke.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
hats all heresay for the most part, as you yourself and martin have all said "you have friends", you've given no credibility to your statements outside of "it's your friends" or "friends of friends". Is Eve growing? Sure if you consider 300k on a global scale, and thats only when they expand into other countries. Also keep in mind thats a global scale, and thats not really saying alot in retrospect. That number will rise as they break into other countries, but then they have to maintain that, and thats something altogether different. Go back and consider the numbers of people online globaly, then consider the amount of those people who are gamers out of that segment. Most people don't want a hard core game like Eve, its a niche market. Is there a market for it? Sure there is, as long as people are willing to pay for it there is. Most people in business go where they know the money is, thats just smart business.
You are seriously misunderstanding how this works because it is YOU who were making statments and it is YOU who need to show credebility to it. YOU were saying that CCP was in financial trouble without pointing to ANY sources. That is why WE think that YOU are just making statments more out YOUR emotions rather than looking at ANY facts.
I have made my claim. I have not pointed to any of my friends in CCP as sources or anything like that. My only point was that you were just makin shit up without having anything to prove it with. My statements on growing number of players, employees and new offices and a merger with white wolf are pure and simple facts. Here is a link to Hilmar the CEO of CCP stating all those facts. Yesterday. http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0611/eve-11nov-1800.avi
Your turn. Bring some facts to the table. I asked you before to bring them and you just simply decided to ignore that request.
Exactly.
But as I said typical Bane pulls crap out of his ear that he can't back up and accuses everyone else of lying.
Bane dont you think its time to stop looking like an ass and move on? No? Okay continue on your little Tirade. CCP is broke WW is hurting EvE isnt growing
Oh and we are all still waiitng on your proof that CCP and WW are hurting for cash, till then Still a Troll, Still a Liar.
Pure ignorance huh? So thats why I backed up my opinion with facts. Sorry you can't cope with the fact that someone has an opinion/belief that differs from yours. Not everyone in life is going to agree with you, and if you can't learn that now you're only setting yourself up for alot of hurt down the road. If these forums had an ignore function you'lld already know what I think about your "attention".
What facts? You have not shown any facts showing that CCP is hurting. NOTHING!!! Only thing you have showed is a link to some place showing 1% market share. Thats it.... We have asked multiple times for more facts to support your dubious theories but you don't have anything. This is not some opinon thing. Either CCP is hurting or it isn't. The FACTS show that it is small but doing ok.
You act like you have so much insight into what is needed for a company to be run. But I don't think you have any slightest insight into what is needed to run a company in Iceland or the rest of Europe. You have been showed quotes from the CEO of CCP but it seems like you actually think that he is lying about the employee count and the number of subscribers. You are actually saying he's just making this shit up. You are actually acusing him of a criminal offence.
No. You have NO facts. You just make shit up and you just ignore facts. You keep saying that you are entitled to your opinion. Well it's not an opinion. What you are saying here are false accusations. No more. No less.
You act like you have so much insight into what is needed for a company to be run. But I don't think you have any slightest insight into what is needed to run a company in Iceland or the rest of Europe. You have been showed quotes from the CEO of CCP but it seems like you actually think that he is lying about the employee count and the number of subscribers. You are actually saying he's just making this shit up. You are actually acusing him of a criminal offence.
1) Oveur is making shit up.
2) It is not a crime, because we are not investors.
3) Subscriptions aren't subscribers, but the number of subscriptions are called subscribers because it looks like the game is more popular than it really may be.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Comments
Eve right now has gwon arround 50k each year. You quoted mmogchart.com but that page shows EVE having similar market share as it's main competitor SW:Galaxies and far above Earth and Beyond that used to be a competitor. So basically that place you quoted for showing in how much deep shit CCP is in shows them as one of the few that have steady and good growth. So what they don't have WoW numbers. It's a big understanding that you have to be the biggest to make money.
Eve usually has between 20k to 30k users online each. All in a single world (WoW caps at 3000 per world). So that should qualify for your request for someting EVE has done revelutionary. Another revolution they made is the most complex and amazing financial system in the game that is only topped by the real thing. Talk what you will about the gameplay. But from a pure question of the technology behind the scenes EVE tops everything.
I stand corrected.
And yes that is impressive. It is also the company designers want to be right now, my friend that was lucky enough to attend fanfest told me that Reynir Hardarson was telling folks that the last developer position that was opened a CCP received over two hundred applicants, most of whom are veterans in the industry and working on projects right now. This is why its laughable when someone shows up and paints CCP as a company thats holding on by the skin of its teeth.
On the WW side Stewart, Steve and Mike has had online companies knocking it's door down and offering them Truck Loads of cash to develop a MMO for the past Four years. If they were desperate as Bane falsely paints them they would have taken SOE's or Microsofts offer
World of Darkness? Never heard of it.
You yourself even admitted that they were in need of capital in your first post in this very thread. Nothing false about it. Nothing bad about it either. I enjoyed White Wolf and still do. Fact is, most gaming companies in the table top industry are hurting right now. It's across the board. Hogshead, West End Games, and even Fasa are gone now just to name a few, and Paladium is barely on it's feet last I heard from distributors.
As to Eve the comments about Eve and being revolutionary, I don't see it. It's still running on cluster server technology, and thats nothing new at all. I really don't see anything unique about 30k people being online either or revolutionary. Maybe I'm misterpretting you here, but from what you're telling me, I just don't see how that really impacts the gaming industry, or the technologies relevant thereof. As to the financial systems in place, again... not really very revolutionary considering it's a fundamental design flaw to any game that bills itself a role playing game. In short role playing games are supposed to be about story, something you can interact with and be apart of, and thats something that is sorely missing from MMO games these days across the board.
Banegrivm
Leader of the 1st Fist of Light
www.1stfistoflight.com
From their FAQ: 1.1 What is EVE Online?
EVE is a massive multiplayer online game (MMOG) set in a science-fiction based, persistent world. Players take the role of spaceship pilots seeking fame, fortune, and adventure in a huge, complex, exciting, and sometimes hostile galaxy.
That said there are more roleplay going on in EVE than most other so called mmoRPGs and it's one of the few mmog on the market where your roleplay actually can have permanent effect on the gaming world and its story.
EVE's server cluster is large enough to be on the top 500 supercomputers in the world. And it's the only game cluster to be there. It also has the largest number of simultaneously users in a persistent world. They have done something that none has done or even come close to doing before. What is not revolutionary with that?
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
That snippet from their FAQ doesn't mean that they don't bill themself out as an RPG. If you notice the way they address MMO's in general, they do it across the board. Yes, I'll say again... whats revolutionary about it? The tech is old tech. Nothing new, it's something thats been doable for a long time now, just no ones done it. Role play is all fine and great, if you're talking about role playing like in a chat room on the internet. I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about truly being able to interact with the story... and thats something I've yet to see out of any game, and Eve certainly isn't any exception to that. Theres a big difference between role playing, and role playing in the context of a role playing game. I'm speaking specifically with deference to the later.
Banegrivm
Leader of the 1st Fist of Light
www.1stfistoflight.com
From their FAQ: 1.1 What is EVE Online?
EVE is a massive multiplayer online game (MMOG) set in a science-fiction based, persistent world. Players take the role of spaceship pilots seeking fame, fortune, and adventure in a huge, complex, exciting, and sometimes hostile galaxy.
That said there are more roleplay going on in EVE than most other so called mmoRPGs and it's one of the few mmog on the market where your roleplay actually can have permanent effect on the gaming world and its story.
EVE's server cluster is large enough to be on the top 500 supercomputers in the world. And it's the only game cluster to be there. It also has the largest number of simultaneously users in a persistent world. They have done something that none has done or even come close to doing before. What is not revolutionary with that?
NO matter how you present it, youre not going to get through to him guy; it's all part of the specialness of being Bane.
Banegrivm
Leader of the 1st Fist of Light
www.1stfistoflight.com
It's the lack of logic that bugs me. You pointed to some place to prove your point that CCP is hurting. That place actually showed that CCP is growing. You ignore the fact that EVE's customer base has almost doubled in a short time. You ignore the fact that CCP has trippled in staff and you ignore the fact that they had spare money to but White Wolf. You ignore the fact that CCP built new offices for 200 people. Those are not actions of a company that is hurting financially.
The fact simply is that CCP's financial situation is booming. It's just simply a fact. You just lack the logic and reason to point at to support what you are saying. Please point me out to ANY place that tells me otherwise.
It's the lack of logic that bugs me. You pointed to some place to prove your point that CCP is hurting. That place actually showed that CCP is growing. You ignore the fact that EVE's customer base has almost doubled in a short time. You ignore the fact that CCP has trippled in staff and you ignore the fact that they had spare money to but White Wolf. You ignore the fact that CCP built new offices for 200 people. Those are not actions of a company that is hurting financially.
The fact simply is that CCP's financial situation is booming. It's just simply a fact. You just lack the logic and reason to point at to support what you are saying. Please point me out to ANY place that tells me otherwise.
Thats all heresay for the most part, as you yourself and martin have all said "you have friends", you've given no credibility to your statements outside of "it's your friends" or "friends of friends". Is Eve growing? Sure if you consider 300k on a global scale, and thats only when they expand into other countries. Also keep in mind thats a global scale, and thats not really saying alot in retrospect. That number will rise as they break into other countries, but then they have to maintain that, while keeping equitable profit margins, and thats something altogether different. Go back and consider the numbers of people online globaly, then consider the amount of those people who are gamers out of that segment. Most people don't want a hard core game like Eve, its a niche market. Is there a market for it? Sure there is, as long as people are willing to pay for it there is. Most people in business go where they know the money is, thats just smart business.
Banegrivm
Leader of the 1st Fist of Light
www.1stfistoflight.com
"just no ones done it" That's the thing isn't it. CCP has done something none else have done. They have changed how an mmog is run from several smaller copies of the world to one large. That's the definition of the word "revolutionary", "constituting or bringing about a major or fundamental change" quoted from webster.
As for how the roleplaying is done I am not talking about chat rooms I am talking about your actions changing the world. One easy example would be Amarr succession, when a new Amarr emperor (Amarr is the largest of the 4 major empires in eve) needs to be appointed the candidates choose one or more champion to fight for him in ship to ship combat. The winner also get the throne. In the game amarrian players where allowed to participate in a tournament that could earn them the prestige to be chosen as a champion and then finally fight to determine who of the 5 candidates would become the next emperor.
There are lots of similar examples but what is more important are the areas outside the major empires influence (in eve called 0.0 due to this being the security status of these systems, no security at all). Here the players make their own empires and write their own stories and their actions influence the day to day life of a large part of the eve player population.
The Great Northern War comes to mind where due to both events in chat rooms and actions ingame resulted in a huge war covering the whole norther part of 0.0 space. This war lasted several months and had an effect on ALL players of eve. One rare but important mineral used in ship building where only available in the north but due to this war almost none where mined and shipped back to empire which meant the prices went sky high.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
I have made my claim. I have not pointed to any of my friends in CCP as sources or anything like that. My only point was that you were just makin shit up without having anything to prove it with. My statements on growing number of players, employees and new offices and a merger with white wolf are pure and simple facts. Here is a link to Hilmar the CEO of CCP stating all those facts. Yesterday.
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0611/eve-11nov-1800.avi
Your turn. Bring some facts to the table. I asked you before to bring them and you just simply decided to ignore that request.
Eve have only once made any specific expansion into another country and that was china just a few months ago. But none of the numbers stated here about eves growth include the china numbers so it's a moot subject. EVE grow without expanding into other countries.
So CCP comming in with a 2.6m $ budget and around 5 people 6 years ago to now having 145 employees and making 2m $ per month is not smart business? Yes it is a niche market but a niche market they have conquered totally. If that's not a success story what is? (and the number is quote here are taken from slides the CCP CEO showed during his speech at the fanfest this weekend so they are not hearsay).
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
It's the lack of logic that bugs me. You pointed to some place to prove your point that CCP is hurting. That place actually showed that CCP is growing. You ignore the fact that EVE's customer base has almost doubled in a short time. You ignore the fact that CCP has trippled in staff and you ignore the fact that they had spare money to but White Wolf. You ignore the fact that CCP built new offices for 200 people. Those are not actions of a company that is hurting financially.
The fact simply is that CCP's financial situation is booming. It's just simply a fact. You just lack the logic and reason to point at to support what you are saying. Please point me out to ANY place that tells me otherwise.
Thats all heresay for the most part, as you yourself and martin have all said "you have friends", you've given no credibility to your statements outside of "it's your friends" or "friends of friends". Is Eve growing? Sure if you consider 300k on a global scale, and thats only when they expand into other countries. Also keep in mind thats a global scale, and thats not really saying alot in retrospect. That number will rise as they break into other countries, but then they have to maintain that, while keeping equitable profit margins, and thats something altogether different. Go back and consider the numbers of people online globaly, then consider the amount of those people who are gamers out of that segment. Most people don't want a hard core game like Eve, its a niche market. Is there a market for it? Sure there is, as long as people are willing to pay for it there is. Most people in business go where they know the money is, thats just smart business.
Like I told your friend martin, feel free to go look at the MMO Charts site. You'll see they have a whole 1 percent of the market share. That's not much in the way of growth really. As I also stated many times over while citing examples that are easy enough to check up on, the table top gaming industry is in hard hard times. Many analysts don't think the industry is going to survive at the rate its going, and that the only people left in the end will be people like White Wolf who are now acquired, and Hasbro/WoTC. As to how it works, I know exactly how it works. Are you aware of the logistics, the costs of running a business, buildings, permits, licences, staff requirements, properties, etc. that all add up to operating expenses? Add into that the capacity of the fact that they have to make a profit after covering costs of doing business. I'm glad you take the words of Hilmar verbatim, but thats hardly a fact. Thats a statement, nothing more, nothing less. Seeing is believing. I know what I see with my own eyes and I'm quite clear and capable of making decisions based off of what I see. You know, just not long ago Smedley said how SWG was going to dethrone WoW. Still waiting on that one. Again, seeing is believing. I'm not entirely discounting Hilmar's statements, but I don't believe it either.
http://kb.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=94
As per your request Mcreag about Eve and it's "RPG" status. In their own writing no less. Thats definitely interesting reading more about the story of Eve and the events. Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like what your telling me is that there is alot of PvP/RP oriented events, which me being a big PvP'er that sounds like it would be alot of fun. I'm curious though, as I never saw it while I played, do they have actual GM events where GM's get involved and push story into the game and players can interact with?
Banegrivm
Leader of the 1st Fist of Light
www.1stfistoflight.com
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
Banegrivm
Leader of the 1st Fist of Light
www.1stfistoflight.com
I think I believe you more than the others, but at this point, the only real numbers we have are from CCP, and I don't think they have any reason to not spin it in a way that sheds them in the best light. They really never had to let anyone know about their real financial shape ever since they separated from their publisher. The only one that knows is the tax man, and they won't talk.
That all changes when they have to start working with a distribution network again to get White Wolf into retail stores. Someone, somewhere is going to know the real truth when you start dealing with buyers, and distributors.
Frankly, the sub numbers, employees, new office, etc. doesn't tell me much about the financial shape. They can be increasing in all of those areas, and still go broke.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I have made my claim. I have not pointed to any of my friends in CCP as sources or anything like that. My only point was that you were just makin shit up without having anything to prove it with. My statements on growing number of players, employees and new offices and a merger with white wolf are pure and simple facts. Here is a link to Hilmar the CEO of CCP stating all those facts. Yesterday.
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0611/eve-11nov-1800.avi
Your turn. Bring some facts to the table. I asked you before to bring them and you just simply decided to ignore that request.
Exactly.
But as I said typical Bane pulls crap out of his ear that he can't back up and accuses everyone else of lying.
Bane dont you think its time to stop looking like an ass and move on? No? Okay continue on your little Tirade. CCP is broke WW is hurting EvE isnt growing
Oh and we are all still waiitng on your proof that CCP and WW are hurting for cash, till then Still a Troll, Still a Liar.
What facts? You have not shown any facts showing that CCP is hurting. NOTHING!!! Only thing you have showed is a link to some place showing 1% market share. Thats it.... We have asked multiple times for more facts to support your dubious theories but you don't have anything. This is not some opinon thing. Either CCP is hurting or it isn't. The FACTS show that it is small but doing ok.
You act like you have so much insight into what is needed for a company to be run. But I don't think you have any slightest insight into what is needed to run a company in Iceland or the rest of Europe. You have been showed quotes from the CEO of CCP but it seems like you actually think that he is lying about the employee count and the number of subscribers. You are actually saying he's just making this shit up. You are actually acusing him of a criminal offence.
No. You have NO facts. You just make shit up and you just ignore facts. You keep saying that you are entitled to your opinion. Well it's not an opinion. What you are saying here are false accusations. No more. No less.
You act like you have so much insight into what is needed for a company to be run. But I don't think you have any slightest insight into what is needed to run a company in Iceland or the rest of Europe. You have been showed quotes from the CEO of CCP but it seems like you actually think that he is lying about the employee count and the number of subscribers. You are actually saying he's just making this shit up. You are actually acusing him of a criminal offence.
1) Oveur is making shit up.
2) It is not a crime, because we are not investors.
3) Subscriptions aren't subscribers, but the number of subscriptions are called subscribers because it looks like the game is more popular than it really may be.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE