I think at least 2 of us have been working in this thread *thanks guys we werent busy anyway*
I like my scaredy cat so no I wont kill it.
Im in Mildura VIC
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
The reason I have a hard time finding a permanent place[which I consider a months worth of time] in the MMO world is because Ultima Online was my first MMORPG I've played. I can say with a shadow of a doubt it's the best there is. Everquest and Lineage can suck it. The only game other than UO that I played for a while was Ragnarok Online, on a trial basis that is. Nothing can beat the greatest and changelling-ness of UO or it's PVP. Right now I'm playing KAL online... grindfest...
Mustache is a cat That has to go to the vet Do your taxes now
"Seriously. It's now 2007 and look at the most popular mmos that we as gamers have so graciously accepted as our mmorpg of the year 2007. Shallow and non-challenging. Now before all you WOW fans try and flame me and tell me that WOW is challenging, I really want you to "stop" first and ask yourself if grinding out those top levels are really challenging or if its just boring. There IS a big difference you know!"
Wow ermm.. learn2raid? Last time I checked, WoW was not about levelling, it was about raiding. That's the best bit of the game, the only bit that's really done properly except for the incredible ease-of-use.
Yeah y'know, I used to be a hardcore MUDer a decade ago. I remember how amazingly challenging it was to grind a troll character up to level xx only to have it perma-die and have to start over just because I had to go afk to answer the door and the sun came out ingame.
Yeah, that was awesome.. Those of us from Gamers with Jobs inc. apologise to those who believe that MMORPGs need to be a thankless 24/7 grind in order to be hardcore enough to justify the elitism of gamers who weren't even there at the dawn of the whole thing and suddenly believe they are the be all and end all of online gaming. *facepalm*
I really do not see how a point click game can be challenging at all.. I have played AO, EVE, WOW..
AO and WoW, both require leveling hours after hours to kill some meaningless creature,, be it sci-fi or fantasy..
None of them are FPS.. iImean. you just stand or jump and click some commands to shoot, kick or cast some magical spell. Where is the player skill in this kind of gameplay ???
Eve pvp or pve??? wtf.. click click clikck, buy sell, click cli.. u get the point? wow amazing planet and thats all.. space game should be FPS.
SWG JTL, nice.. but would space sim is more of my style.. Seen how they fly on Battlestar galactica series.. well that.
So I play this old game called Jumpgate.. witch as announced will have its deserved overhaul on AI and graphix..
Try a FPS being mmorpg or multiplayer (Battlefield), and then come back and talk about PVP skill, cause PVP means actually Player versus Player.. I dont see any playerskill in todays fantasy click games witch dont require playerimprovement.
Seriously. It's now 2007 and look at the most popular mmos that we as gamers have so graciously accepted as our mmorpg of the year 2007. Shallow and non-challenging. Now before all you WOW fans try and flame me and tell me that WOW is challenging, I really want you to "stop" first and ask yourself if grinding out those top levels are really challenging or if its just boring. There IS a big difference you know! Isn't it sad when Ultima Online, even with all of its trammel "protect the weak at heart" nonsense is still one of the deepest and most challenging mmos out there? And what we have accepted as a replacement is pretty eye-candy that is nothing but a seriously long grind-fest and is quite honestly only a challenge to a retarded and blind monkey! Anyone's great grandmother or very young child can play and excel at a game like World of Warcraft. Hell, my 5 year old daughter plays it for crying out loud! She also plays "Barbie Horse Adventures" on my PS2. So perhaps 7.5 million should jump on Barbie's latest PS2 adventure because it too is simple and easy and mindless to play if you are over the age of say 8 years old. Some of you may call me hardcore. And that I am the exception rather the rule of what mmo fans love today. But that's exactly my point! Shouldn't more of us desire more challenge in our mmos? Shouldn't we want SOME kind of consequence of dying in the game?? I'm certainly not saying we should love a game where griefing is rewarded, but for crying out loud,we should like a game where there is big rewards for big risks and the simple fact is most of todays mmos have very little if no "risk" what-so-ever! You never lose a damn thing if you mindlessly run your level 6 avatar into a red level 50 mob. The higher the risk, the higher the reward! But if there is no risk (as in no death penalties) then the game is basically "no risk, all reward". And we wonder why so many get so bored of todays mmos after just a short period of time. Compare that to the avid fans of older mmos like the original Everquest, Asheron's Call (1), and the old school Ultima Online (Pre-Trammel). In those classics where there is a huge risk vs reward challenge, the fans of the late 90's when those games blossomed STILL play their games almost a decade later! We really should be ashamed for supporting such mindless, un-challenging, all-reward, no risk eye candy today. Go ahead and flame away WoW fans. but atleast provide some kind of thought process in your flames, please. - Zaxx
Agree 100%.
WOW is one big noobfest / grindfest / itemfest with no emotions bar the ones placed on the roll of a dice.
Yeah, I remember the Diku flood of '94 too. Most modern MUDs don't use permadeath anymore, but most of the popular ones do. Of course, those same MUDs are also RP required games and I don't see anything like that working on a commercial MMO.
Even more interesting, Some of the oldest MUDs don't even incorporate death as a play mechanic. There a a lot consent MUSHes and MUXes that will only kill characters if their owner consents to that character dying as part of a bigger story that's being run. And therein lies the truth about MMORPGs. They're meant to be roleplaying games, not competitive third person beat 'em ups. It's about story, not ego stroking.
Having said that, there are ways to make competitive games with RPG elements. The end result is something more like a tabletop miniatures game where each player controls one miniature. The problem being that once you introduce levels and loot, you section off the community as far as who is able to compete with whom. Eve being an exception here because it offers so many different ways to compete as well as a "skill-based" character system.
Maybe we should redo the MMORPG acronym to something more fitting....
Ultimately though, these games are social spaces. Whether your socializing involves chatting or competition really doesn't matter.
I kinda agree with you all, but maybe you should realize that alot of people aren't necessarily wanting challenge in their games, just something they get have fun with immediately, use to unwind after a hard day at work. Or they just wanna get uber really fast and not spend half their lives seeing and achieving everything the game has to offer. These kind of markets are more profitable, that's why. I prefer some challenge, and you're right MMO's just seem to be getting nowhere in originality and everything..bleh. But that's what most people want, more of the same and they'll keep buying it without any standard. Shucks.
Wow ermm.. learn2raid? Last time I checked, WoW was not about levelling, it was about raiding. That's the best bit of the game, the only bit that's really done properly except for the incredible ease-of-use.
Yeah y'know, I used to be a hardcore MUDer a decade ago. I remember how amazingly challenging it was to grind a troll character up to level xx only to have it perma-die and have to start over just because I had to go afk to answer the door and the sun came out ingame.
Yeah, that was awesome.. Those of us from Gamers with Jobs inc. apologise to those who believe that MMORPGs need to be a thankless 24/7 grind in order to be hardcore enough to justify the elitism of gamers who weren't even there at the dawn of the whole thing and suddenly believe they are the be all and end all of online gaming. *facepalm*
TB.
So WOW's not about leveling? It's about raiding you say? By raiding you mean spending an hour forming a group, 2-3 hours doing a worthwhile dungeon only to get beaten on the roll of a dice for that one epic you needed...hmm...sounds like fun to me!
Rinse and Repeat. Rinse and Repeat. Rinse and Repeat.
Gamers with jobs? lol, sorry, but 4 hour raids are NOT for people with jobs.
Once the level grind finishes the Item grind begins. Once the item grind finishes the honor/pvp grind begins. Then they move the goalposts and the whole process repeats itself.
Oh wow, what fun!!
Sorry, but you obviously have never played UO, AC, or any decent PVP game. You don't need to grind 24/7 to be competitive in these games as they are PLAYER SKILL BASED, not oh WOW I’m level 60 with uber gear I ownz you, click 1, click 2, click 3.
Originally posted by Eraser55 I really do not see how a point click game can be challenging at all.. I have played AO, EVE, WOW.. AO and WoW, both require leveling hours after hours to kill some meaningless creature,, be it sci-fi or fantasy.. None of them are FPS.. iImean. you just stand or jump and click some commands to shoot, kick or cast some magical spell. Where is the player skill in this kind of gameplay ???Eve pvp or pve??? wtf.. click click clikck, buy sell, click cli.. u get the point? wow amazing planet and thats all.. space game should be FPS. SWG JTL, nice.. but would space sim is more of my style.. Seen how they fly on Battlestar galactica series.. well that.So I play this old game called Jumpgate.. witch as announced will have its deserved overhaul on AI and graphix.. Try a FPS being mmorpg or multiplayer (Battlefield), and then come back and talk about PVP skill, cause PVP means actually Player versus Player.. I dont see any playerskill in todays fantasy click games witch dont require playerimprovement. Leveling your character is not a skill.
It's generally accepted that RPG != FPS within most circles. You, apparently, have missed the memo.
The whole point of an RPG game is to do things which we could normally not do. If I am not very accurate or fast IRL, I don't want that reflected in my character in-game. The skill in an RPG comes in strategy... understanding when to use each ability and how equipment and stats can affect your character. The whole point of FPS is to reflect player skill, by allowing them to flaunt their lightning-fast reflexes. The two genres are totally different.
If you came to an RPG expecting an FPS, you're an idiot. FPS games take skill, and RPG games also take skill... but the two skills are completely separate from each other.
Another person who thinks that slapping a death penalty on a game increases the difficulty. it doesn't. It increases the time sink, and thats a big diffrence. WoW isn't harder, and WoW isn't more easy then other MMORPG's. Its much more newbie friendly, thats all. No matter how you look at it, That boss still has 500 hit points, it doesn't matter if you lose an item if you die or not.Because If you lose your sword, you either:
1: Setle for a new, weaker sword.
What does this mean? It means that it now takes 6 seconds to kill that mob, instead of 5,5 seconds. Because you also got hit more, you will have to sit down to recove 0,8 seconds longer.
2: Farm the same dungeon/mob/boss to get that same sword again, or just buy it.
This doesn't make the game harder in any way or form.
WoW is popular. Obviously a lot of people like it. Obviously a lot of people find it just challenging enough, or at the very least entertaining enough to keep playing it.
People do not play boring, crappy games, at least not for long. Now certain types of gameplay do not appeal to everyone, but why would I be ashamed of liking what I like.
So the answer is no. I'm not ashamed, I have no intention of spending my life living up to someone else' expectations, and I won't join your cult.
Look at it this way; How many easy mode/normal MMO's are there which require nothing much and don't really pose a challenge? How many MMO's are there that are 'hardcore' (someone else's words), which DO require a tad more and due to a more 'harsh' way of doing things make things more challenges, makes a victory taste sweeter as defeat would have been more costly?
Exactly, there's tons of normal ones, and almost no 'hardcore' (again, someone else's words, not my choice but you understand what I mean). There's tons of MMO's, old and new, who pose no challenge, which don't have any real highs because there aren't any real lows, which just make the player waealthier, stronger with no repercussions if that player fekked up or is just stupid. Ok, given the fact that there's several ways of doing things, that people might like different things in different ways it's not that odd to have someone who like the more 'harsh' MMO's starts to cry about the fact that there are just about zero of those. EVE is a good example of a more harsh environment and yes I'm an EVE player, but understand that people who like a bit more of a challenge from an MMO aren't by default evil PKers, nasty people who eat babies for breakfast. We just like more of a challenge... And as any person/group, we want to be heard and if possible have SOME options to choose from, as it stands there's hardly any MMO for these people. Would there have been 1 or 2 good MMO's that also cater for the other type of player like us I'm sure you wouldn't hear us whine about it. But most of the new MMO's that come out are just sad little happy happy loot/gold/level/ubah sword copies the same old thing. I'm betaing LOTRO so you have some idea of how much I'm gritting my teeth with that one hehehe, yet I beta it to test it and find some bugs, but I'm certainly not one of their future customers. People like different things, that's a fact. Atm only mainstream MMO's are coming out, we feel neglected.
Now this is the way to argue for a more virtual world like game. Well written, non-flaming, intelligent. The debate for more "hardcore" games needs more voices like this. Many of the people arguing for a more virtual world type game take a very PvP griefer tone, this hurts the argument.
This could come from the fact that there are at least four different types of players that want more "challenging" games: the true virtual world enthusiast (Richard Bartle), the h@rdc0r3 1337 PvP griefer who just wants to be able to kill everybody all the time, the player who really wants Counterstrike the MMO, and the truely hardcore raider.
The problem is that by far the most vocal of these groups are the elitist raiders, and the PvP griefer. The "Counterstrike" crowd has been shown that MMO developers are interested in their cause with Guild Wars so they don't have as much to yell about. Virtual world enthusiasts are usually by nature more thoughtful and less likely to jump all over forums yelling and flaming. The real problem is that these types only seem to want the same game in fact they want four totally different games. We all know what the hardcore raider type wants, content that only they and their guild can complete. They are big time achievers and I cannot believe that there is not a way to satisfy them without blowing the game for everyone else no matter what type of game it is. I think a small amount of creativity from some devs could go a very long way towards integrating them into almost any online society. They can be useful to have around because their uber gear and long playtimes lets them tar and feather most PKers if they get out of hand. We have seen progress on what the Counterstrike crowd wants and there is a lot of hope there. Hopefully the next generation that builds on Guild Wars can utilize a little more twitch. I don't really think they belong in most other games and there really isnt a good way to integrate this style of play because it requires fine tuned PvP balance. The virtual world types are gonna be tough. Nothing can ever match a MUD here because you got to use your own imagination and could do almost anything. UO came close but in itself it was fraught with problems. Most of us do like PvP, but PvP with a role. Its great to have PvP bandits to worry about. They camp out on the road and wait for a juicy target and pounce to make their living. However their should also be players in the role of the law who can punish them in a meaningful way. Unfortunatly open PvP has almost always favored the bandits so far and I don't see it changing any time soon. Their just needs to be a good way for a player to catch some one and really punish him for murder/robbery for this to work. But I can dream..... As it is open PvP just winds up leading to senseless ganking, with little gain on the part of the bandit and almost no threat of real loss for the bandit (dropping gear or not being able to enter a city for a few hours is no real loss). As for the PvP griefers...well no one really wants them in their game. They run of the social types and explorers and irritate the heck out of the achievers. I hope their is never a game for them..because only they would play it. Whenever a game drifts towards their style there is a sharp subscription decrease and massive (usually game breaking) changes. In all (even though I don't find it super deep) I am glad for WoW, it has increased the player base and the amount of money available. This player base will lokk for more diverse things to do as they learn more about MMOs. Many WoW players could actually be virtual worldies and not even know it yet, they have not been exposed. I think no one should be happier about WoW than Eve fans. They are right now enjoying the fact that there are people who played WoW and went looking for something different. Great credit is due to the Eve community since they have made sure that these players were able to find what they were looking for. They have been very vocal and, for the most part, great press for their game. Oh and if you are looking for a "hardcore" MMO, I suggest Redlight.
GL already said it: a time sink doesn't equate to challenge.
Challenge is what the players put into the game themselves. XP or Item loss has never prevented me from doing an activity. Whether it was stealthing through low sec space in Eve or in areas like Stranglethorn Vale in WoW, I had an equal amount of fun. Lossing something doesn't mean an activity will be more challenging, it simply means you may be spending time grinding back what you lost.
When I PvP I don't consider what items (or xp) I may loss, I consider how challenging (read fun) fighting my opponent will be. I can always grind back whatever I lost; it's the entertainment I'm after.
I suggest those bitter over WoW's success either get over themselves, seek help, or ... realize it's a just one of many available MMOs, of which one or more will appeal them. Have fun, they're just games. ^_^
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
GL already said it: a time sink doesn't equate to challenge. Challenge is what the players put into the game themselves. XP or Item loss has never prevented me from doing an activity. Whether it was stealthing through low sec space in Eve or in areas like Stranglethorn Vale in WoW, I had an equal amount of fun. Lossing something doesn't mean an activity will be more challenging, it simply means you may be spending time grinding back what you lost. When I PvP I don't consider what items (or xp) I may loss, I consider how challenging (read fun) fighting my opponent will be. I can always grind back whatever I lost; it's the entertainment I'm after. I suggest those bitter over WoW's success either get over themselves, seek help, or ... realize it's a just one of many available MMOs, of which one or more will appeal them. Have fun, they're just games. ^_^
i totally agree, games now have become catored to the insanely stupid. All the games now don't have a pt, you always see tha peeps don't want a death penalty or anything. They always state that if you lose anything its to hard blah blah blah. I have tried allllllll these mmos and i only ever last at most 2 months cuz of the insanely noobishly play style they ALLLL have. these games are catoring to all the noobs/ casual players that don't know how to breathe without being told to breathe in and out. Thats just how mmos have gotten.
One of my favorite things about EQ was the Hell Levels, all the old scholl EQers know what i am talking about.
Originally posted by Razorback I think at least 2 of us have been working in this thread *thanks guys we werent busy anyway* I like my scaredy cat so no I wont kill it. Im in Mildura VIC
Mildura isn't quite the outback, close, nearly there, but not quite. From the way you were talking in other threads, I thought you were from Katherine or Karratha or somewhere like that.
to the OP: yes, without doubt. but not just PvP, almost every mmo is set on easy mode with the mechanics that underlie gameplay, and as a general rule get easier as time passes. euw
Unfortunatley there is one thing that is to blame in my opinion.
Games that generaly generate Hard Core gamers interest only do so-so. As it seems there is a large difference in what HC gammers and casual gammers like.
You can look at WoW and see that it's a game that covers all aspects enough to grab your HC gammers and the casual ones. But i believe WoW should be the exception and not the standard, but it seems Most gaming companys view it as the standard.
HC gammers want charachter depth, immersive gameplay and usualy a full on PvP system.
Casual gamers tend go for the plug and play mentality, Instant reward instant gratification.
In WoW i have noticed most HC gamers usualy play it just because they are bored of the other games out there, and usualy tend to go back and forth from another game and wow. Mainly cause after about 6 months the HC gamer has basicly seen all that WoW has to offer 2-3 times over.
The casual gammer on the other hand, doesn't mind taking 4-6 months to lvl to max lvl, and usualy at this time they are pretty much still green to everything. I think this is where you find most of your 7 million subscribers.
Can another game find a way to attarack both of these types of gammers? Probably, but from what i have seen in other game forums, WoW is a hard competiter to shake, and unfortunatly a lot of people are using it to base thier opinions on other games.
you know wow has a level of difficulty preset because once you beat the raid content you can roll the pvp content, therefore the difficulty is based on how hard it is to beat the AI of the game. Couple that with videos and strategies everywhere that tell you exactly what to do and there is no challenge.
Then of course the difficulty of getting 40 people together and on the same page, but most every mmo has that.
you could say EVE is even less challenging than WoW, especially since you could do a 10/10 complex solo with 2 accounts and tech 1 mods (apoc tank, mega blaster combo if you're wondering, and energy transfers, remote repairs, pre torp vs frig nerf though) But the difference between EVE and WoW is that your ability to conquer the npc AI does not make your advantage in PvP any different.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You? if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it. Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end
Why should people be ashamed by it? A lot of people simply enjoy it more, which is not that strange since the original games can be stressfull.
Perhaps you should be a little ashamed because it's like sucking a baby pacifier when you are 24 years old. And by everyone and their brother supporting a game like WoW, all we will continue to have year after year is more and more mindless wow "clones" to try and duplicate or take a chunk of that mindless profit.
Look, I am not saying that a game like WoW isn't a solid and well build game. I am not saying that it isn't pretty, that it isn't fluid, or even that it can't be fun! I am simply saying that I strongly believe that many of us mmo gamers that might play a game like WoW should really have a strong craving for something more challenging. Fights that require atleast a little bit of actual skill such as some hand-eye coordination. Maybe I kinda feel that many of the people who love WoW so much really should appreciate something which requires a little more skill, a little more thought, and a lot more risk. Hell, I'd gladly trade in mindless grind in for some rewarding challenge any day of the week. I really think a few more of us should feel the same way. I dunno.
- Zaxx
hmmm...
Then shouldn't you be ashamed for listening to tonal music, all probably written in C or D or G major and not moving on to all the 12 tone Greats who are misunderstood?
Nonsense. You listen to what you like and screw what other people say.
So why shouldn't other people just play what they enjoy. If they didn't enjoy it they woudln't play it. And since many people consider these games just "games" then they don't really care that they are anything other than entertainment.
However, there should be other, more hardcore games out there. There seems to be a market for them with so many people screaming that they miss the old days. The pity is that game companies are now trying to grab such larger numbers that they might not realize that they have a market that is desiring the next great thing for them.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
hmmm... Then shouldn't you be ashamed for listening to tonal music, all probably written in C or D or G major and not moving on to all the 12 tone Greats who are misunderstood?
And we wonder why so many get so bored of todays mmos after just a short period of time. Compare that to the avid fans of older mmos like the original Everquest, Asheron's Call (1), and the old school Ultima Online (Pre-Trammel). In those classics where there is a huge risk vs reward challenge, the fans of the late 90's when those games blossomed STILL play their games almost a decade later! We really should be ashamed for supporting such mindless, un-challenging, all-reward, no risk eye candy today. Go ahead and flame away WoW fans. but atleast provide some kind of thought process in your flames, please. - Zaxx
I feel for you zaxtor, but I'm afraid that the problem is not that the games are boring. We have made them boring.
In fact, I would venture to say that the most hardcore amongst us were able to come to grips with the true essence of how an MMO needed to be played: as boringly as possible.
Why? When something is challenging, or exciting, or risky, then it means there is a chance for personal failure, or guild failure. Since the hardcore and hardcore guilds are willing to do whatever it takes not to fail, then the object of a game filled with risks, excitement, challenge, and danger is to not seek it out, but rather, to avoid it entirely.
I have to laugh when we talk about "risks" and "rewards," especially when it comes from the hardcores. Because hardcore players are the most risk adverse players I have ever seen, to the point of being no fun at all. They have never sought out risks, but rather, tried to get rewarded without taking risks, and are better "risk managers" then most insurance adjusters I have met.
If Creature A gives you more reward for less risk than Creature B, then most of the hardcore players I knew would simply grind on Creature A for eternity. In fact, they are so obsessed with efficiency, they'll even abandon any sense of immersion, character play, or friendliness in order to twink out as fast as possible.
They refuse to group with others not in their guild/voice system/clique, because grouping with an unknown is too risky. They won't pursue good quests if the time versus gain ratio isn't as good as elsewhere. They will not try exotic builds, or roleplay, because such things are wastes of time. You see, the hardcore knows that nobody ever got on the top of a PvP ranking ladder by RPing. Its wasted time, as far as most of the hardcore I have come to know.
Back in the days of UO Zaxx, we were all n00bs to MMOs, in all its 56K glory. We didn't have 200 member game hopping clans, TS/Vent, boards, internet cheat guides, etc. Everything that influenced the game was in the game, and so we played the game.
Its also how we played the game back then. We took people as they were. We played characters, not "geek football" positions (DPS, tank, healer, mezzer, etc.). Everyone was a part of our game, and worthy of knowing, whether they were hooked on TS/Vent, or not.
Hindsight being 20/20 though, nobody in their right mind would play today the way we played back then. We were pretty "stupid" back then. We took stupid chances, wasted a lot of grind time, grouped with people who weren't very "committed," and lost a lot of opportunity to get good loot, and prestige by doing pointless things like roleplay.
We are a lot "wiser" now on what to do in games like this. How to manage our risk better. How not to waste time. How to pwn, use the boards, use TS/Vent, use our guilds, and get on the ladder rankings. In short, we have learned how to master games like this, and so there isn't much left to get excited about.
So Zaxx, I'm afraid that even if they give us the type of game you describe, it isn't going to work like it did back in those old days on 56K. We let the business of play take precedence over the play, and all a "riskier" and "more rewarding" game will do is make us play more boringly than the next clan/guild/hardcore. The path to überness is actually very simple when your goal is to become über, and not to approach the game in the spirit in which it was developed: to be fun, relaxing, and evoke a sense of wonder.
These days, we could get the most deep and challenging game ever made. We'd just turn it into "mindless, un-challenging, all-reward, no risk eye candy," because that is what we strive to do.
Nobody ever got über by doing exciting and fun things Zaxx. They become über because they are willing to do things that are way too boring, in games that are way too fun.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I have to laugh when we talk about "risks" and "rewards," especially when it comes from the hardcores. Because hardcore players are the most risk adverse players I have ever seen, to the point of being no fun at all. They have never sought out risks, but rather, tried to get rewarded without taking risks, and are better "risk managers" then most insurance adjusters I have met.
That is so true. The best time I had was in EQ1 with a small guild that tried to do things others thought they couldnt. We failed and failed, but we got better at what we did, and eventually it worked, and we felt 'satisfaction'.
I dont see the point of leveling to max in 7 days, its not the destination, its the journey that is the most fun, and the people you travel with. IMHO.
there is no reason to try and survive in mmo's... it's just an endless grind.
you never feel satisfied to just be alive, to be bunkered in a small outpost and just happy there are enough people there that you wont likely be eaten.
there are alot of exciting ideas that just cant be embraced in such static mmo's like warcraft.
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
Comments
I think at least 2 of us have been working in this thread *thanks guys we werent busy anyway
*
I like my scaredy cat so no I wont kill it.
Im in Mildura VIC
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
The reason I have a hard time finding a permanent place[which I consider a months worth of time] in the MMO world is because Ultima Online was my first MMORPG I've played. I can say with a shadow of a doubt it's the best there is. Everquest and Lineage can suck it. The only game other than UO that I played for a while was Ragnarok Online, on a trial basis that is. Nothing can beat the greatest and changelling-ness of UO or it's PVP. Right now I'm playing KAL online... grindfest...
Mustache is a cat
That has to go to the vet
Do your taxes now
Wow ermm.. learn2raid? Last time I checked, WoW was not about levelling, it was about raiding. That's the best bit of the game, the only bit that's really done properly except for the incredible ease-of-use.
Yeah y'know, I used to be a hardcore MUDer a decade ago. I remember how amazingly challenging it was to grind a troll character up to level xx only to have it perma-die and have to start over just because I had to go afk to answer the door and the sun came out ingame.
Yeah, that was awesome.. Those of us from Gamers with Jobs inc. apologise to those who believe that MMORPGs need to be a thankless 24/7 grind in order to be hardcore enough to justify the elitism of gamers who weren't even there at the dawn of the whole thing and suddenly believe they are the be all and end all of online gaming. *facepalm*
TB.
AO and WoW, both require leveling hours after hours to kill some meaningless creature,, be it sci-fi or fantasy..
None of them are FPS.. iImean. you just stand or jump and click some commands to shoot, kick or cast some magical spell. Where is the player skill in this kind of gameplay ???
Eve pvp or pve??? wtf.. click click clikck, buy sell, click cli.. u get the point? wow amazing planet and thats all.. space game should be FPS.
SWG JTL, nice.. but would space sim is more of my style.. Seen how they fly on Battlestar galactica series.. well that.
So I play this old game called Jumpgate.. witch as announced will have its deserved overhaul on AI and graphix..
Try a FPS being mmorpg or multiplayer (Battlefield), and then come back and talk about PVP skill, cause PVP means actually Player versus Player.. I dont see any playerskill in todays fantasy click games witch dont require playerimprovement.
Leveling your character is not a skill.
My cool sig: Turrets suck.
WOW is one big noobfest / grindfest / itemfest with no emotions bar the ones placed on the roll of a dice.
Have fun with that.
Even more interesting, Some of the oldest MUDs don't even incorporate death as a play mechanic. There a a lot consent MUSHes and MUXes that will only kill characters if their owner consents to that character dying as part of a bigger story that's being run. And therein lies the truth about MMORPGs. They're meant to be roleplaying games, not competitive third person beat 'em ups. It's about story, not ego stroking.
Having said that, there are ways to make competitive games with RPG elements. The end result is something more like a tabletop miniatures game where each player controls one miniature. The problem being that once you introduce levels and loot, you section off the community as far as who is able to compete with whom. Eve being an exception here because it offers so many different ways to compete as well as a "skill-based" character system.
Maybe we should redo the MMORPG acronym to something more fitting....
Ultimately though, these games are social spaces. Whether your socializing involves chatting or competition really doesn't matter.
I kinda agree with you all, but maybe you should realize that alot of people aren't necessarily wanting challenge in their games, just something they get have fun with immediately, use to unwind after a hard day at work. Or they just wanna get uber really fast and not spend half their lives seeing and achieving everything the game has to offer. These kind of markets are more profitable, that's why. I prefer some challenge, and you're right MMO's just seem to be getting nowhere in originality and everything..bleh. But that's what most people want, more of the same and they'll keep buying it without any standard. Shucks.
So WOW's not about leveling? It's about raiding you say? By raiding you mean spending an hour forming a group, 2-3 hours doing a worthwhile dungeon only to get beaten on the roll of a dice for that one epic you needed...hmm...sounds like fun to me!
Rinse and Repeat. Rinse and Repeat. Rinse and Repeat.
Gamers with jobs? lol, sorry, but 4 hour raids are NOT for people with jobs.
Once the level grind finishes the Item grind begins. Once the item grind finishes the honor/pvp grind begins. Then they move the goalposts and the whole process repeats itself.
Oh wow, what fun!!
Sorry, but you obviously have never played UO, AC, or any decent PVP game. You don't need to grind 24/7 to be competitive in these games as they are PLAYER SKILL BASED, not oh WOW I’m level 60 with uber gear I ownz you, click 1, click 2, click 3.
It's generally accepted that RPG != FPS within most circles. You, apparently, have missed the memo.
The whole point of an RPG game is to do things which we could normally not do. If I am not very accurate or fast IRL, I don't want that reflected in my character in-game. The skill in an RPG comes in strategy... understanding when to use each ability and how equipment and stats can affect your character. The whole point of FPS is to reflect player skill, by allowing them to flaunt their lightning-fast reflexes. The two genres are totally different.
If you came to an RPG expecting an FPS, you're an idiot. FPS games take skill, and RPG games also take skill... but the two skills are completely separate from each other.
YES!! We rend our very garments, in shame for this infamy! Bless us father Zaxtor... We... Have... Sinned!
Ok so not really.
1: Setle for a new, weaker sword.
What does this mean? It means that it now takes 6 seconds to kill that mob, instead of 5,5 seconds. Because you also got hit more, you will have to sit down to recove 0,8 seconds longer.
2: Farm the same dungeon/mob/boss to get that same sword again, or just buy it.
This doesn't make the game harder in any way or form.
This seems to be a pointless thread.
WoW is popular. Obviously a lot of people like it. Obviously a lot of people find it just challenging enough, or at the very least entertaining enough to keep playing it.
People do not play boring, crappy games, at least not for long. Now certain types of gameplay do not appeal to everyone, but why would I be ashamed of liking what I like.
So the answer is no. I'm not ashamed, I have no intention of spending my life living up to someone else' expectations, and I won't join your cult.
Have a nice day.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
GL already said it: a time sink doesn't equate to challenge.
Challenge is what the players put into the game themselves. XP or Item loss has never prevented me from doing an activity. Whether it was stealthing through low sec space in Eve or in areas like Stranglethorn Vale in WoW, I had an equal amount of fun. Lossing something doesn't mean an activity will be more challenging, it simply means you may be spending time grinding back what you lost.
When I PvP I don't consider what items (or xp) I may loss, I consider how challenging (read fun) fighting my opponent will be. I can always grind back whatever I lost; it's the entertainment I'm after.
I suggest those bitter over WoW's success either get over themselves, seek help, or ... realize it's a just one of many available MMOs, of which one or more will appeal them. Have fun, they're just games. ^_^
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
i totally agree, games now have become catored to the insanely stupid. All the games now don't have a pt, you always see tha peeps don't want a death penalty or anything. They always state that if you lose anything its to hard blah blah blah. I have tried allllllll these mmos and i only ever last at most 2 months cuz of the insanely noobishly play style they ALLLL have. these games are catoring to all the noobs/ casual players that don't know how to breathe without being told to breathe in and out. Thats just how mmos have gotten.
One of my favorite things about EQ was the Hell Levels, all the old scholl EQers know what i am talking about.
Mildura isn't quite the outback, close, nearly there, but not quite. From the way you were talking in other threads, I thought you were from Katherine or Karratha or somewhere like that.
Lismore, NSW, here.
Unfortunatley there is one thing that is to blame in my opinion.
Games that generaly generate Hard Core gamers interest only do so-so. As it seems there is a large difference in what HC gammers and casual gammers like.
You can look at WoW and see that it's a game that covers all aspects enough to grab your HC gammers and the casual ones. But i believe WoW should be the exception and not the standard, but it seems Most gaming companys view it as the standard.
HC gammers want charachter depth, immersive gameplay and usualy a full on PvP system.
Casual gamers tend go for the plug and play mentality, Instant reward instant gratification.
In WoW i have noticed most HC gamers usualy play it just because they are bored of the other games out there, and usualy tend to go back and forth from another game and wow. Mainly cause after about 6 months the HC gamer has basicly seen all that WoW has to offer 2-3 times over.
The casual gammer on the other hand, doesn't mind taking 4-6 months to lvl to max lvl, and usualy at this time they are pretty much still green to everything. I think this is where you find most of your 7 million subscribers.
Can another game find a way to attarack both of these types of gammers? Probably, but from what i have seen in other game forums, WoW is a hard competiter to shake, and unfortunatly a lot of people are using it to base thier opinions on other games.
Then of course the difficulty of getting 40 people together and on the same page, but most every mmo has that.
you could say EVE is even less challenging than WoW, especially since you could do a 10/10 complex solo with 2 accounts and tech 1 mods (apoc tank, mega blaster combo if you're wondering, and energy transfers, remote repairs, pre torp vs frig nerf though) But the difference between EVE and WoW is that your ability to conquer the npc AI does not make your advantage in PvP any different.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it.
Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro
if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end
Perhaps you should be a little ashamed because it's like sucking a baby pacifier when you are 24 years old. And by everyone and their brother supporting a game like WoW, all we will continue to have year after year is more and more mindless wow "clones" to try and duplicate or take a chunk of that mindless profit.
Look, I am not saying that a game like WoW isn't a solid and well build game. I am not saying that it isn't pretty, that it isn't fluid, or even that it can't be fun! I am simply saying that I strongly believe that many of us mmo gamers that might play a game like WoW should really have a strong craving for something more challenging. Fights that require atleast a little bit of actual skill such as some hand-eye coordination. Maybe I kinda feel that many of the people who love WoW so much really should appreciate something which requires a little more skill, a little more thought, and a lot more risk. Hell, I'd gladly trade in mindless grind in for some rewarding challenge any day of the week. I really think a few more of us should feel the same way. I dunno.
- Zaxx
hmmm...
Then shouldn't you be ashamed for listening to tonal music, all probably written in C or D or G major and not moving on to all the 12 tone Greats who are misunderstood?
Nonsense. You listen to what you like and screw what other people say.
So why shouldn't other people just play what they enjoy. If they didn't enjoy it they woudln't play it. And since many people consider these games just "games" then they don't really care that they are anything other than entertainment.
However, there should be other, more hardcore games out there. There seems to be a market for them with so many people screaming that they miss the old days. The pity is that game companies are now trying to grab such larger numbers that they might not realize that they have a market that is desiring the next great thing for them.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I feel for you zaxtor, but I'm afraid that the problem is not that the games are boring. We have made them boring.
In fact, I would venture to say that the most hardcore amongst us were able to come to grips with the true essence of how an MMO needed to be played: as boringly as possible.
Why? When something is challenging, or exciting, or risky, then it means there is a chance for personal failure, or guild failure. Since the hardcore and hardcore guilds are willing to do whatever it takes not to fail, then the object of a game filled with risks, excitement, challenge, and danger is to not seek it out, but rather, to avoid it entirely.
I have to laugh when we talk about "risks" and "rewards," especially when it comes from the hardcores. Because hardcore players are the most risk adverse players I have ever seen, to the point of being no fun at all. They have never sought out risks, but rather, tried to get rewarded without taking risks, and are better "risk managers" then most insurance adjusters I have met.
If Creature A gives you more reward for less risk than Creature B, then most of the hardcore players I knew would simply grind on Creature A for eternity. In fact, they are so obsessed with efficiency, they'll even abandon any sense of immersion, character play, or friendliness in order to twink out as fast as possible.
They refuse to group with others not in their guild/voice system/clique, because grouping with an unknown is too risky. They won't pursue good quests if the time versus gain ratio isn't as good as elsewhere. They will not try exotic builds, or roleplay, because such things are wastes of time. You see, the hardcore knows that nobody ever got on the top of a PvP ranking ladder by RPing. Its wasted time, as far as most of the hardcore I have come to know.
Back in the days of UO Zaxx, we were all n00bs to MMOs, in all its 56K glory. We didn't have 200 member game hopping clans, TS/Vent, boards, internet cheat guides, etc. Everything that influenced the game was in the game, and so we played the game.
Its also how we played the game back then. We took people as they were. We played characters, not "geek football" positions (DPS, tank, healer, mezzer, etc.). Everyone was a part of our game, and worthy of knowing, whether they were hooked on TS/Vent, or not.
Hindsight being 20/20 though, nobody in their right mind would play today the way we played back then. We were pretty "stupid" back then. We took stupid chances, wasted a lot of grind time, grouped with people who weren't very "committed," and lost a lot of opportunity to get good loot, and prestige by doing pointless things like roleplay.
We are a lot "wiser" now on what to do in games like this. How to manage our risk better. How not to waste time. How to pwn, use the boards, use TS/Vent, use our guilds, and get on the ladder rankings. In short, we have learned how to master games like this, and so there isn't much left to get excited about.
So Zaxx, I'm afraid that even if they give us the type of game you describe, it isn't going to work like it did back in those old days on 56K. We let the business of play take precedence over the play, and all a "riskier" and "more rewarding" game will do is make us play more boringly than the next clan/guild/hardcore. The path to überness is actually very simple when your goal is to become über, and not to approach the game in the spirit in which it was developed: to be fun, relaxing, and evoke a sense of wonder.
These days, we could get the most deep and challenging game ever made. We'd just turn it into "mindless, un-challenging, all-reward, no risk eye candy," because that is what we strive to do.
Nobody ever got über by doing exciting and fun things Zaxx. They become über because they are willing to do things that are way too boring, in games that are way too fun.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I have to laugh when we talk about "risks" and "rewards," especially when it comes from the hardcores. Because hardcore players are the most risk adverse players I have ever seen, to the point of being no fun at all. They have never sought out risks, but rather, tried to get rewarded without taking risks, and are better "risk managers" then most insurance adjusters I have met.
That is so true. The best time I had was in EQ1 with a small guild that tried to do things others thought they couldnt. We failed and failed, but we got better at what we did, and eventually it worked, and we felt 'satisfaction'.
I dont see the point of leveling to max in 7 days, its not the destination, its the journey that is the most fun, and the people you travel with. IMHO.
you never feel satisfied to just be alive, to be bunkered in a small outpost and just happy there are enough people there that you wont likely be eaten.
there are alot of exciting ideas that just cant be embraced in such static mmo's like warcraft.
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--