MMOs are what you make of them. Yes, you - Time Magazine's person of the year. Not Blizzard, not SOE, not Mythic, not CCP. There really is no special gameplay element that makes MMOs interesting, other than the fact the gameplay is really diluted out to last a long time.
I'm sick and tired of hearing that WoW has no challenge. Get over yourselves please. I guarrantee you, you suck at WoW if you aren't able to find challenge in that game. I've lead some of the most high end, hardcore guilds in Everquest - the "hardcore" mmo, and I tell you, WoW isn't really that much different. Try leading 54+ people several hours a night - it's a freaking life consuming challenge.
PvP in WoW is also a challenge, but it's a challenge that YOU must seek out. You're playing OTHER people for christ sake, how can that not be a challenge? If you're going to gank greys all the time, then yes, it's no challenge. But WoW makes it very easy to fight people your level, or higher, and there are good players out there, and if you look hard enough, you will find them. I fight people higher than my alt's level all the time, some of them really well played.
I reckon that the haters assume that because WoW is so easy to pick up and accessibile, they don't need to invest the energy to really make the game interesting for themselves, like they would with other games.
WoW isn't shallow, at least no more than MMOs in general - and yes, I include games like UO and EQ. If anyone is shallow, it's those that can't see past gameplay mechanics, can't make friends, and can't entertain themselves.
The 'depth' people so dearly love in 'more complex' mmos is simply a result of the game mechanics being so diluted to take so long (note, not challenging) that people are forced to entertain themselves. For the most part it works, but you can find that sort of interaction on IRC. Hell, MMOs are little more but glorified chatrooms with a game tagged on.
Once again, get over yourselves please - if you don't like WoW - DON'T PLAY IT.
wow was a great game, but whoever said the leveling was fun has lost it...
levels 40-60 were an absolute abomination of hellacious boredom.
your bored of the game and have nothing to do, as am i, but we'll all get bored of the next game too.
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
And we wonder why so many get so bored of todays mmos after just a short period of time. Compare that to the avid fans of older mmos like the original Everquest, Asheron's Call (1), and the old school Ultima Online (Pre-Trammel). In those classics where there is a huge risk vs reward challenge, the fans of the late 90's when those games blossomed STILL play their games almost a decade later! We really should be ashamed for supporting such mindless, un-challenging, all-reward, no risk eye candy today. Go ahead and flame away WoW fans. but atleast provide some kind of thought process in your flames, please. - Zaxx
I feel for you zaxtor, but I'm afraid that the problem is not that the games are boring. We have made them boring.
In fact, I would venture to say that the most hardcore amongst us were able to come to grips with the true essence of how an MMO needed to be played: as boringly as possible.
Why? When something is challenging, or exciting, or risky, then it means there is a chance for personal failure, or guild failure. Since the hardcore and hardcore guilds are willing to do whatever it takes not to fail, then the object of a game filled with risks, excitement, challenge, and danger is to not seek it out, but rather, to avoid it entirely.
I have to laugh when we talk about "risks" and "rewards," especially when it comes from the hardcores. Because hardcore players are the most risk adverse players I have ever seen, to the point of being no fun at all. They have never sought out risks, but rather, tried to get rewarded without taking risks, and are better "risk managers" then most insurance adjusters I have met.
If Creature A gives you more reward for less risk than Creature B, then most of the hardcore players I knew would simply grind on Creature A for eternity. In fact, they are so obsessed with efficiency, they'll even abandon any sense of immersion, character play, or friendliness in order to twink out as fast as possible.
They refuse to group with others not in their guild/voice system/clique, because grouping with an unknown is too risky. They won't pursue good quests if the time versus gain ratio isn't as good as elsewhere. They will not try exotic builds, or roleplay, because such things are wastes of time. You see, the hardcore knows that nobody ever got on the top of a PvP ranking ladder by RPing. Its wasted time, as far as most of the hardcore I have come to know.
Back in the days of UO Zaxx, we were all n00bs to MMOs, in all its 56K glory. We didn't have 200 member game hopping clans, TS/Vent, boards, internet cheat guides, etc. Everything that influenced the game was in the game, and so we played the game.
Its also how we played the game back then. We took people as they were. We played characters, not "geek football" positions (DPS, tank, healer, mezzer, etc.). Everyone was a part of our game, and worthy of knowing, whether they were hooked on TS/Vent, or not.
Hindsight being 20/20 though, nobody in their right mind would play today the way we played back then. We were pretty "stupid" back then. We took stupid chances, wasted a lot of grind time, grouped with people who weren't very "committed," and lost a lot of opportunity to get good loot, and prestige by doing pointless things like roleplay.
We are a lot "wiser" now on what to do in games like this. How to manage our risk better. How not to waste time. How to pwn, use the boards, use TS/Vent, use our guilds, and get on the ladder rankings. In short, we have learned how to master games like this, and so there isn't much left to get excited about.
So Zaxx, I'm afraid that even if they give us the type of game you describe, it isn't going to work like it did back in those old days on 56K. We let the business of play take precedence over the play, and all a "riskier" and "more rewarding" game will do is make us play more boringly than the next clan/guild/hardcore. The path to überness is actually very simple when your goal is to become über, and not to approach the game in the spirit in which it was developed: to be fun, relaxing, and evoke a sense of wonder.
These days, we could get the most deep and challenging game ever made. We'd just turn it into "mindless, un-challenging, all-reward, no risk eye candy," because that is what we strive to do.
Nobody ever got über by doing exciting and fun things Zaxx. They become über because they are willing to do things that are way too boring, in games that are way too fun.
well obviously.
when a hardcore player talks about 'risks' and 'rewards' they aren't talking about wanting to be punished, they merely understand the concept that running toward pleasure and away from pain is what makes life entertaining, so why shouldnt a game be the same way.
ever been polled over by a cop, or done something illegal and run from a cop?
it'll give you a sensation you've never felt before, because you know the consequences are severe.
mmo's that require you to use your imagination to supplant this energy and excitement only last so long, until the player realizes there is no punishment upon failure, and then the magic and energy is gone.
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
Originally posted by Beatnik59 I feel for you zaxtor, but I'm afraid that the problem is not that the games are boring. We have made them boring. In fact, I would venture to say that the most hardcore amongst us were able to come to grips with the true essence of how an MMO needed to be played: as boringly as possible. Why? When something is challenging, or exciting, or risky, then it means there is a chance for personal failure, or guild failure. Since the hardcore and hardcore guilds are willing to do whatever it takes not to fail, then the object of a game filled with risks, excitement, challenge, and danger is to not seek it out, but rather, to avoid it entirely. I have to laugh when we talk about "risks" and "rewards," especially when it comes from the hardcores. Because hardcore players are the most risk adverse players I have ever seen, to the point of being no fun at all. They have never sought out risks, but rather, tried to get rewarded without taking risks, and are better "risk managers" then most insurance adjusters I have met. If Creature A gives you more reward for less risk than Creature B, then most of the hardcore players I knew would simply grind on Creature A for eternity. In fact, they are so obsessed with efficiency, they'll even abandon any sense of immersion, character play, or friendliness in order to twink out as fast as possible. They refuse to group with others not in their guild/voice system/clique, because grouping with an unknown is too risky. They won't pursue good quests if the time versus gain ratio isn't as good as elsewhere. They will not try exotic builds, or roleplay, because such things are wastes of time. You see, the hardcore knows that nobody ever got on the top of a PvP ranking ladder by RPing. Its wasted time, as far as most of the hardcore I have come to know. Back in the days of UO Zaxx, we were all n00bs to MMOs, in all its 56K glory. We didn't have 200 member game hopping clans, TS/Vent, boards, internet cheat guides, etc. Everything that influenced the game was in the game, and so we played the game. Its also how we played the game back then. We took people as they were. We played characters, not "geek football" positions (DPS, tank, healer, mezzer, etc.). Everyone was a part of our game, and worthy of knowing, whether they were hooked on TS/Vent, or not. Hindsight being 20/20 though, nobody in their right mind would play today the way we played back then. We were pretty "stupid" back then. We took stupid chances, wasted a lot of grind time, grouped with people who weren't very "committed," and lost a lot of opportunity to get good loot, and prestige by doing pointless things like roleplay. We are a lot "wiser" now on what to do in games like this. How to manage our risk better. How not to waste time. How to pwn, use the boards, use TS/Vent, use our guilds, and get on the ladder rankings. In short, we have learned how to master games like this, and so there isn't much left to get excited about. So Zaxx, I'm afraid that even if they give us the type of game you describe, it isn't going to work like it did back in those old days on 56K. We let the business of play take precedence over the play, and all a "riskier" and "more rewarding" game will do is make us play more boringly than the next clan/guild/hardcore. The path to überness is actually very simple when your goal is to become über, and not to approach the game in the spirit in which it was developed: to be fun, relaxing, and evoke a sense of wonder. These days, we could get the most deep and challenging game ever made. We'd just turn it into "mindless, un-challenging, all-reward, no risk eye candy," because that is what we strive to do. Nobody ever got über by doing exciting and fun things Zaxx. They become über because they are willing to do things that are way too boring, in games that are way too fun.
Well, I will give you much respect for a well thought out and understandable response. It's a hell of an improvement over the typical flames and personal insults one would expect with such a topic.
But what I speak of I guess is personal because I'm not talking about how the most uber gamers play a game to get to the top the quickest. I am simply talking about an mmo that IS actually much more challenging then what we have today as the most popular mmos to choose from. I will say this.. I have recently started playing (either Siege Perilous of UO or some other hardcore classic UO server) and am enjoying the living hell out of it. There are red murderers everywhere! It's classic UO greatness and loaded with players. The fun that I am having in this old school UO server blows away the challenge and fun that I have had in any mmo in the past several years... and I have played a LOT of the newer mmos, trust me)
See, when I play a great, challenging mmo where you drop important loot upon death and have to use skill and smarts rather then just blindly clicking away at your best damage hot bar buttons... I play it for the challenge. I take risks. I play the good guy who goes against high skilled or high level reds. I don't take the smart, efficient road typically, but look for something called "adventure" and "excitement" in my game play. I want to see if I can outsmart a red murderer player that has twice the armor and twice the stats that I do. This isn't high percentage play. Yet it is high excitement and high challenge play for me. And I friggin' love it. See, if I do this in a game like WOW and try to play a level 20 alliance toon and fight a level 25 horde, the stats and odds are totally against me.. even if my opponent is some mentally handicapped 6 year old kid.. I will lose. I will get pwned hard. He is clicking his best hot bar slash repeatedly and no matter what I do, I will get raped. There needs to be at least some skill required I suppose to make it fun for me.
Call me weird. But I love PvP where the loser loses mad loot upon death. Not because I want to gank much lower level players and take their stuff. Hell, that's easier then playing WOW. That's boring as hell. Anyone can do that. By now, you people that know me have heard me say a million times I want a CHALLENGE damn it. Ganking a player 20 levels below me while he is AFK is just too easy. Hell no, not me. When I played Asheron's Call on the Darktide PvP server back in 2001.. I played an anti-pk and was constantly trying to get the best of pk'ers twice and triple my level. Now THAT was fun! Sure, I got killed many, many times. And I lost so much loot to them it's not even funny. I spent much time way out in the middle of nowhere just trying to level up and replace all the good stuff I lost with new stuff.
But you know what? I still remember my first real pk kill in Asheron's Call. I was level 26 and I actually killed a level 65 red pk that was in my hometown of that virtual world of Dereth! I was sooo damn proud. Heh. I finally busted a red pk down that mattered. And the high I got from that kill was easily worth the 80 or 100 deaths I experienced from other pks who just ganked me up until that time.
In PvE, I get tired of spawn killing the same mobs over and over and over, regardless of the efficiency. This is the places that were typically camped out in Asherons Call with the illegal auto ran macro programs for people characters so that their toons would level up the quickest while they were AFK. I didn't want that. I wanted to be out trying to figure out how to kill some almost impossible monsters weaknesses and try and take it down... even if it meant dying to it 17 times first. With every death, if I saw some shimmer of possibility to beat it, I would be running back out to it to try it again!
This is NOT the high efficiency play you state that "hardcore" players love. If what you describe is hardcore, then I guess I'm either not hardcore, or I'm just a dumbass adventure seeker or something. What you describe as a hardcore player makes sense. The kind of player that just wants to get to the top with the most uber loot the fastest. Hell, if that's all I wanted, I'd love World of Warcraft.
Hopefully I have explained myself a bit further for those who care to know what it is I actually love and want... but the problem on these boards is that most really only find their adventure in trying to flame, outwit, or try and sound smarter then everyone else. '
I'm just one true gamer looking for some mmo "adventure" like I experienced my first few years with UO and AC1. I need a challenge in that game. I need there to be high risks and rewards and I need to lose something if I die. I gotta have PvP. Constantly fighting AI mobs gets old fast. But that PvP has to have a certain amount of skill required. If it's all just random or clicking a hot bar fast then any 3 year old can beat me and that's no fun. I need to actually feel like I've done something myself if I win. I need to feel that the outcome wasn't just a dice roll between two evenly matched characters.
I can hope can't I? I can dream. Or I can go back and play some old school UO. Horray for that!
maybe should feel ashamed about wasting your life staring into a screen for hours, geeking out over pixel things, that are devoid of anything of any meaning, that's abundant in the real world: flavor, an essence, touch, smell... (unless you live in a big city where everything is asphalted over and densely sprinkled wth giant concrete blocks... then of course, these games do seem the less dead thing to go to.
All these grindy games requiring more than very casual time commitment, can be seen as a flight into something less complex, less challenging than RL. So maybe game developers got it exactly right in not making anything challenging.
Originally posted by Tsais Sure, if you wanna, go ahead and feel ashamed... maybe should feel ashamed about wasting your life staring into a screen for hours, geeking out over pixel things, that are devoid of anything of any meaning, that's abundant in the real world: flavor, an essence, touch, smell... (unless you live in a big city where everything is asphalted over and densely sprinkled wth giant concrete blocks... then of course, these games do seem the less dead thing to go to.
Thanks for judging me (and others) personal lives. See, this is what I mean by personal attacks with no basis what-so-ever.
Look Tsais, I truly understand that you likely understand all to well how addicting mmos can be. However, before you try and condemn everyone who plays or speaks fondly of mmos as to wasting their life.. perhaps you should understand that many, as myself, simply don't have 17 hours per day to play a video game. Some of us only get maybe 10 or 12 hours a week and we would rather play a good video game as a leisurely hobby then say 'watching the television'.
I haven't really played a video game more then say 12 hours per week in years. I have a family now. But that doesn't mean that I don't still desire to see an actual quality and challenging mmo come out in the fantasy genre.
But since you are so quick to judge me and/or others on how we all waste awy our lives on pixels.. what exactly are YOU doing on an mmo board forum? Oooooohhh, right. You have never wasted one moment of your life on a video game. Yeh. I know. Thanks for informing us all and caring so much as to try and warn us all of the great dangers of mmos to our lives. Thanks so much. I can tell you really care. It shows.
when a hardcore player talks about 'risks' and 'rewards' they aren't talking about wanting to be punished, they merely understand the concept that running toward pleasure and away from pain is what makes life entertaining, so why shouldnt a game be the same way.
ever been polled over by a cop, or done something illegal and run from a cop?
it'll give you a sensation you've never felt before, because you know the consequences are severe.
mmo's that require you to use your imagination to supplant this energy and excitement only last so long, until the player realizes there is no punishment upon failure, and then the magic and energy is gone.
Well said. I can only play poker with ‘fake’ money for so long, before it gets dull, repetitive and boring.
Bring in the real money and it’s on! The brain kicks it up a few gears, the palms get sweaty, the emotions kick in…the rush, the fear, the adrenaline!
Games like WOW where there are no risks or rewards, no consequences for failing or feeling of accomplishment for winning – is much the same as playing poker with fake money. I can only pretend I care about the outcome for so long.
Well, I will give you much respect for a well thought out and understandable response. It's a hell of an improvement over the typical flames and personal insults one would expect with such a topic. But what I speak of I guess is personal because I'm not talking about how the most uber gamers play a game to get to the top the quickest. I am simply talking about an mmo that IS actually much more challenging then what we have today as the most popular mmos to choose from. I will say this.. I have recently started playing (either Siege Perilous of UO or some other hardcore classic UO server) and am enjoying the living hell out of it. There are red murderers everywhere! It's classic UO greatness and loaded with players. The fun that I am having in this old school UO server blows away the challenge and fun that I have had in any mmo in the past several years... and I have played a LOT of the newer mmos, trust me) See, when I play a great, challenging mmo where you drop important loot upon death and have to use skill and smarts rather then just blindly clicking away at your best damage hot bar buttons... I play it for the challenge. I take risks. I play the good guy who goes against high skilled or high level reds. I don't take the smart, efficient road typically, but look for something called "adventure" and "excitement" in my game play. I want to see if I can outsmart a red murderer player that has twice the armor and twice the stats that I do. This isn't high percentage play. Yet it is high excitement and high challenge play for me. And I friggin' love it. See, if I do this in a game like WOW and try to play a level 20 alliance toon and fight a level 25 horde, the stats and odds are totally against me.. even if my opponent is some mentally handicapped 6 year old kid.. I will lose. I will get pwned hard. He is clicking his best hot bar slash repeatedly and no matter what I do, I will get raped. There needs to be at least some skill required I suppose to make it fun for me.
Call me weird. But I love PvP where the loser loses mad loot upon death. Not because I want to gank much lower level players and take their stuff. Hell, that's easier then playing WOW. That's boring as hell. Anyone can do that. By now, you people that know me have heard me say a million times I want a CHALLENGE damn it. Ganking a player 20 levels below me while he is AFK is just too easy. Hell no, not me. When I played Asheron's Call on the Darktide PvP server back in 2001.. I played an anti-pk and was constantly trying to get the best of pk'ers twice and triple my level. Now THAT was fun! Sure, I got killed many, many times. And I lost so much loot to them it's not even funny. I spent much time way out in the middle of nowhere just trying to level up and replace all the good stuff I lost with new stuff. But you know what? I still remember my first real pk kill in Asheron's Call. I was level 26 and I actually killed a level 65 red pk that was in my hometown of that virtual world of Dereth! I was sooo damn proud. Heh. I finally busted a red pk down that mattered. And the high I got from that kill was easily worth the 80 or 100 deaths I experienced from other pks who just ganked me up until that time. In PvE, I get tired of spawn killing the same mobs over and over and over, regardless of the efficiency. This is the places that were typically camped out in Asherons Call with the illegal auto ran macro programs for people characters so that their toons would level up the quickest while they were AFK. I didn't want that. I wanted to be out trying to figure out how to kill some almost impossible monsters weaknesses and try and take it down... even if it meant dying to it 17 times first. With every death, if I saw some shimmer of possibility to beat it, I would be running back out to it to try it again! This is NOT the high efficiency play you state that "hardcore" players love. If what you describe is hardcore, then I guess I'm either not hardcore, or I'm just a dumbass adventure seeker or something. What you describe as a hardcore player makes sense. The kind of player that just wants to get to the top with the most uber loot the fastest. Hell, if that's all I wanted, I'd love World of Warcraft. Hopefully I have explained myself a bit further for those who care to know what it is I actually love and want... but the problem on these boards is that most really only find their adventure in trying to flame, outwit, or try and sound smarter then everyone else. ' I'm just one true gamer looking for some mmo "adventure" like I experienced my first few years with UO and AC1. I need a challenge in that game. I need there to be high risks and rewards and I need to lose something if I die. I gotta have PvP. Constantly fighting AI mobs gets old fast. But that PvP has to have a certain amount of skill required. If it's all just random or clicking a hot bar fast then any 3 year old can beat me and that's no fun. I need to actually feel like I've done something myself if I win. I need to feel that the outcome wasn't just a dice roll between two evenly matched characters. I can hope can't I? I can dream. Or I can go back and play some old school UO. Horray for that! Peace.
- Zaxx
Amen!
You hit the nail right on the head man, excellent post.
I am in exactly the same boat as you. Being an anti-pk was one hell of a good time in AC1, especially when the odd's were stacked up against you - man, what a rush that game was.
Originally posted by osc8rAmen! You hit the nail right on the head man, excellent post. I am in exactly the same boat as you. Being an anti-pk was one hell of a good time in AC1, especially when the odd's were stacked up against you - man, what a rush that game was. Long live UO and Darktide.
Hell yeh. ^5 brother. Anti PK on Darktide back in the good ol' days is what I'm talking about. And you understand what I want so badly.. whether it be a remake of the Asheron's Call Classic game with some real 3D graphics upgrades and marketing to get people playing again -or- whether it be a whole new game with similar game play challenge. Hell I'd also love to see UO with an all new 3D graphics engine and atleast some servers "pre-trammel".
I really do think that the problem is that about 90% of the players who play WoW and other similar games don't even know what they are missing. They see a well packaged, fluid online game with a smooth game like WOW and just don't know how much better it COULD be! Hehe.
Anyhow, someone understands me! Come on now [some big capable game company]... deliver the goods for the players who love the real mmos with skill and challenge included. There's more out there that desire such a game then just me and osc8r here, I promise you. Many of those 8 million WOW fans would check it out if it just looked prettier on the new shiny box in Walmart, I promise you they would! And then they'd be friggin' hooked. Well some of them would be hooked on what we want anyhow. An'd you might not make 150 million per month or whatever like Blizzard, but you'd make PLENTY. And you'd make a LOT of old school and challenge loving mmo players really happy!
Seriously. It's now 2007 and look at the most popular mmos that we as gamers have so graciously accepted as our mmorpg of the year 2007. Shallow and non-challenging. Now before all you WOW fans try and flame me and tell me that WOW is challenging, I really want you to "stop" first and ask yourself if grinding out those top levels are really challenging or if its just boring. There IS a big difference you know!
And Fall Out Boy is a talentless band that has droves of teenage girls buying their albums. You can tell them that all you like but they don't care, and I don't blame them for not caring what I think. So long as they enjoy it that's all that really matters.
Originally posted by zaxtor99
Isn't it sad when Ultima Online, even with all of its trammel "protect the weak at heart" nonsense is still one of the deepest and most challenging mmos out there? And what we have accepted as a replacement is pretty eye-candy that is nothing but a seriously long grind-fest and is quite honestly only a challenge to a retarded and blind monkey! Anyone's great grandmother or very young child can play and excel at a game like World of Warcraft. Hell, my 5 year old daughter plays it for crying out loud! She also plays "Barbie Horse Adventures" on my PS2. So perhaps 7.5 million should jump on Barbie's latest PS2 adventure because it too is simple and easy and mindless to play if you are over the age of say 8 years old.
If I have fun doing something I could give a rat's behind who else does it. I'm going to enjoy myself and my life as I see fit.
Originally posted by zaxtor99
Some of you may call me hardcore. And that I am the exception rather the rule of what mmo fans love today. But that's exactly my point! Shouldn't more of us desire more challenge in our mmos? Shouldn't we want SOME kind of consequence of dying in the game?? I'm certainly not saying we should love a game where griefing is rewarded, but for crying out loud,we should like a game where there is big rewards for big risks and the simple fact is most of todays mmos have very little if no "risk" what-so-ever! You never lose a damn thing if you mindlessly run your level 6 avatar into a red level 50 mob. The higher the risk, the higher the reward! But if there is no risk (as in no death penalties) then the game is basically "no risk, all reward". And we wonder why so many get so bored of todays mmos after just a short period of time. Compare that to the avid fans of older mmos like the original Everquest, Asheron's Call (1), and the old school Ultima Online (Pre-Trammel). In those classics where there is a huge risk vs reward challenge, the fans of the late 90's when those games blossomed STILL play their games almost a decade later! We really should be ashamed for supporting such mindless, un-challenging, all-reward, no risk eye candy today. Go ahead and flame away WoW fans. but atleast provide some kind of thought process in your flames, please. - Zaxx
I understand where you're coming from but you're trying to make your point at the expense of anyone else who is having fun playing World of Warcraft. Maybe more players should want more out of a game, but you know what? We're not all the same. We all have different tastes, and it just so happens that in January 2007 more gamers are ok with the current offerings then those who aren't. Whether or not you or I like the market trend doesn't matter, and that may or may not be a shame.
I play Mario. I play Tetris. I play Spider Solitare.All three are mindless and shallow but to me they're a blast to play.
Play the games you enjoy and find challenging, and I'll do the same. And spread the word about those games in a way people are going to respect and understand. Just keep in mind that if you're going to underhandedly insult a group of people, don't expect them to sympathize or want to see things your way.
Edit: I'm not saying any of this with anger directed at you, which I realize might be interpreted from reading through my post. I just think there was a more respectful approach to the question, "Shouldn't we expect more from our MMO's?" But anyways, cheers.
The only challenge in early UO is if you could avoid the little kiddie gankers that spent all their time figuring out ways to ruin others game experience. Yes yes some like to actually believe in a dilusional kind of way that this game style was challenging that took skill. When all they did was stick a key down on their keyboard for a couple of hours and trained up their weapon skills.
There is no MMO that is truely a challenge and there never will be. UO certainly wasn't and niether is anything else.
The only challenge in early UO is if you could avoid the little kiddie gankers that spent all their time figuring out ways to ruin others game experience. Yes yes some like to actually believe in a dilusional kind of way that this game style was challenging that took skill. When all they did was stick a key down on their keyboard for a couple of hours and trained up their weapon skills.
There is no MMO that is truely a challenge and there never will be. UO certainly wasn't and niether is anything else.
Quoted for truth. Wouldn't be able to say it any better.
Zaxtor99, purely your choice to feel judged by my observations. Don't like my advice, feel free to ignore it, but you posted here asking for input, and I guess I must have hit on something...?
Your shame and judgement terms of thinking are foreign to me ...religious upbringing?
and indeed I do play games, and you should relax a bit
Originally posted by Tsais Zaxtor99, purely your choice to feel judged by my observations. Don't like my advice, feel free to ignore it, but you posted here asking for input, and I guess I must have hit on something...?Your shame and judgement terms of thinking are foreign to me ...religious upbringing?and indeed I do play games, and you should relax a bit
Dude, I am perfectly relaxed. Also you didn't hit on nothing judging me. I asked for input, sure. Condemnations as to how I waste my life on pixels, etc etc I didn't ask for. But condemn away bro. Everyone on these forums talks about mmo video games. And I'm sure that's the reason you also are here. But condemn away for how people spend their time dude. Have fun with that.
But it's better then the rest out there. if anything a lot of the "end-game" content is tooo difficult.
hahaha "end game content". This simple term says it all about the mindset of todays gamer. Due to games like WoW the expectations are so low now. UO set them high and WoW and the like came along and took us all back 10 years. (apart from Eve, Ryzom)
This is exactly why no company will likely ever make an mmo with any damn challenge to it again. This is most peoples thought process. Just like Jimmy's here. If I want challenge in my game, then hook electrodes to my nads and shock my nads everytime I take damage in the game eh? Great. Let me do that with a friggin retarded game like "WoW" where if my level 17 character fights a certain level 19 mob, then my BEST result is going to be taking about 95% of my health bar in damage. This is because I really have no skillful way of dodging any bolts from that mob or avoiding any damage coming. I just take it. Even if I jump over the fireball or run behind a rock, the god damn bolt will swirve and turn and hit me in my ass regardless! This is what I am talking about! Just point and click everything, over and over and over and over. Point and click. never actually use any skill to manuever or heal quickly or anything. Just mindlessly clicking away with no risk vs reward factor what-so-ever. And now you really think I'm gonna hook electrodes to my nads based on that total BS where I'm guaranteed to take tons of damage??!! Nooo. You just don't get it.
I mean what's next people?? A new mmo that gets 30 million players just because it is made by "Square-Enix" that has everyone in a huge field doing nothing but catching treasure, gold, and mad loot falling from the sky!?? No even having to bother with actually fighting any mobs! WOW! Just run around and catch falling loot from the sky! Ohhhh and it'll be so damn brilliant cuz if two players actually try and get the same hunk of falling loot, BOTH players that are close will get the same fallen piece of loot! We can't actually have any competition you know! Boy! Think of it! ALL REWARDS! NO RISKS! NO CHALLENGE! YAY!
It's not that I hate WoW. Not that I think I am superior to those who do like WoW or a similar game like it. It's simply the fact that I can't believe so many people are flocking so much to games like WoW that really offer so little in the challenge, skill, and risk vs reward departments.
Flame on WoW lovers. But I know that there are plenty who agree with me, whether they are responding or not here.
Oh, and Jimmy, this is the medium (an mmo game forum) where I and others like me have as much right to complain about the lack luster mmos today as you have the rights to insult and degrade them for the games that they like. You are great at flaming, I must admit. Perhaps you'd excel at an mmo where you get rewarded for flaming others posts. You do so well at it, bro.
I was one of those you mentioned, just reading and agreeing with what you wrote, planning not to respond, but what the hell.
There's a difference between playing checkers and chess, checkers is easy and quick to learn and therefore more kids probably end up playing it at some point. However, as a result of it's relative simplicity, it grows boring quickly. Chess, on the other hand, takes longer to learn and is more complex, but as a result it can be more challenging and is more rewarding to play in the long term. Most MMOGs are like checkers nowadays. With the MMOG market expanding so quickly, eventually there will be more chess MMOGs, it's just a matter of time.
But, that's why I'm playing these small games like Roma Victor, and looking forward to the possibility of Darkfall; while I am dissapointed at how ignorant EA is to still not have released a Classic Ultima Online server.
If a classic UO server would be profitable, EA would already have launched one, its that simple. truth is, very few people are actually intrested enough in a classic UO server, or even UO in general out of the ones already playing.
Originally posted by Gameloading If a classic UO server would be profitable, EA would already have launched one, its that simple. truth is, very few people are actually intrested enough in a classic UO server, or even UO in general out of the ones already playing.
I would have to disagree with you once again here Gameloading...
Look at all the free UO shards which are some form of "classic UO" and all of these shards together host tens of thousands of players every month. Now, you can come back and say but they are free. Yes, they are. But a lot of them take Paypal donations and/or give your characters gold or other items for those donations, and likely a good majority of those free servers actually make considerable money off of them.
I would bet that a classic "No Trammel" server would be more popular then you might expect if they were to open one up.
Seriously. It's now 2007 and look at the most popular mmos that we as gamers have so graciously accepted as our mmorpg of the year 2007. Shallow and non-challenging. Now before all you WOW fans try and flame me and tell me that WOW is challenging, I really want you to "stop" first and ask yourself if grinding out those top levels are really challenging or if its just boring. There IS a big difference you know! Isn't it sad when Ultima Online, even with all of its trammel "protect the weak at heart" nonsense is still one of the deepest and most challenging mmos out there? And what we have accepted as a replacement is pretty eye-candy that is nothing but a seriously long grind-fest and is quite honestly only a challenge to a retarded and blind monkey! Anyone's great grandmother or very young child can play and excel at a game like World of Warcraft. Hell, my 5 year old daughter plays it for crying out loud! She also plays "Barbie Horse Adventures" on my PS2. So perhaps 7.5 million should jump on Barbie's latest PS2 adventure because it too is simple and easy and mindless to play if you are over the age of say 8 years old. Some of you may call me hardcore. And that I am the exception rather the rule of what mmo fans love today. But that's exactly my point! Shouldn't more of us desire more challenge in our mmos? Shouldn't we want SOME kind of consequence of dying in the game?? I'm certainly not saying we should love a game where griefing is rewarded, but for crying out loud,we should like a game where there is big rewards for big risks and the simple fact is most of todays mmos have very little if no "risk" what-so-ever! You never lose a damn thing if you mindlessly run your level 6 avatar into a red level 50 mob. The higher the risk, the higher the reward! But if there is no risk (as in no death penalties) then the game is basically "no risk, all reward". And we wonder why so many get so bored of todays mmos after just a short period of time. Compare that to the avid fans of older mmos like the original Everquest, Asheron's Call (1), and the old school Ultima Online (Pre-Trammel). In those classics where there is a huge risk vs reward challenge, the fans of the late 90's when those games blossomed STILL play their games almost a decade later! We really should be ashamed for supporting such mindless, un-challenging, all-reward, no risk eye candy today. Go ahead and flame away WoW fans. but atleast provide some kind of thought process in your flames, please. - Zaxx
You right on some parts however getting level nuked because of you keep getting killed by 20 different people is not my kind of style. However being able to make it out of there and then bring back more men and bring those basterds down. That is rather a useful bit of strategy in my opinion. If you played the more heavily pvp ryl private servers it killed the grind and was hardcored pvp, I loved that. However If there was a decent high rate server with a huge amount of players I would of played it. But as I said before the ryl community has long been divided into fragments and nothing more.
Take a deep drink of your demon Lad, tonight we tangle with the fire in the gut.
Originally posted by Kurush You know, the millions of people who play WoW do so because they have fun. They honestly don't care about the fact that a handful of super hardcore MMORPG nerds are offended by its success. When they stop having fun, they leave, but they don't suddenly think the game is the Antichrist.
What is bad for MMOs in general, is an MMO that fails to stay active long enough for enough people to experience it, give it a fair shake, learn what is good/bad about it and eventualy move on to something different. Unfortunatly, when an MMO like WoW comes along, you end up with alot of first-time MMO players. Now this isn't bad in and of itself; what is bad is that a large percentile of these first-time players do not go play other MMOs to gain valuable experience in the genre. Sure they may not be new to electronic games in general, they are new to MMOs and need to understand what other MMOs have to offer as well. In this light, eventhough we may feel Zaxx's perspective is an illigitimate and immature plight, there is great value in his offering that we should perhaps challenge ourselves a little more to go out and discover other great MMOs that are not as popular as WoW.
Originally posted by Kurush I'm trying to figure out what about WoW bothers people here so much. It's beyond dislike. It's beyond any kind of logic or reason. I think it's the fact that WoW highlights what MMORPG gameplay is and has been since the beginning: a timesink. There was never any challenge or skill involved in any of them. That doesn't mean they weren't fun. Advancement just had nothing to do with player skill. I suppose a lot of hardcore MMORPG gamers vest so much of their egos in MMORPG's that their heart breaks to admit that all the achievements they earned were only because they slogged away for thousands of hours, not because they were actually good at anything.
In somewhat of a sociological patchwork, MMOs for our young generation are replacing the edicts of religions in the way that the values instilled in the followers of those religions form idiosyncratic movements to dissuade followers of rival religions of their beliefs at a most underlying level. You are allowed to play the MMO of your choosing, as long as it is the MMO that I'm telling you to choose. Of course I'm attempting to demonstrate the contrast between religious zealots and MMO zealots. I'm not attacking any religions, please be clear on that.
Originally posted by Kurush I suppose that's ultimately the difference between the casual and hardcore MMORPG player. Casuals play for fun. Hardcores play for ego.
A fair observation that it is the ego that is binding to the games, I much prefer to question if it is perhaps the id that is gaining the attachment, and then rendering outward in the ego as a negative persona. All game players have the tie to the game at the id level, however most well balanced and normative people do not outwardly display hostility toward non-conformers of choice.
You know, the millions of people who play WoW do so because they have fun. They honestly don't care about the fact that a handful of super hardcore MMORPG nerds are offended by its success. When they stop having fun, they leave, but they don't suddenly think the game is the Antichrist.
What is bad for MMOs in general, is an MMO that fails to stay active long enough for enough people to experience it, give it a fair shake, learn what is good/bad about it and eventualy move on to something different. Unfortunatly, when an MMO like WoW comes along, you end up with alot of first-time MMO players. Now this isn't bad in and of itself; what is bad is that a large percentile of these first-time players do not go play other MMOs to gain valuable experience in the genre. Sure they may not be new to electronic games in general, they are new to MMOs and need to understand what other MMOs have to offer as well. In this light, eventhough we may feel Zaxx's perspective is an illigitimate and immature plight, there is great value in his offering that we should perhaps challenge ourselves a little more to go out and discover other great MMOs that are not as popular as WoW.
Originally posted by Kurush
I'm trying to figure out what about WoW bothers people here so much. It's beyond dislike. It's beyond any kind of logic or reason. I think it's the fact that WoW highlights what MMORPG gameplay is and has been since the beginning: a timesink. There was never any challenge or skill involved in any of them. That doesn't mean they weren't fun. Advancement just had nothing to do with player skill. I suppose a lot of hardcore MMORPG gamers vest so much of their egos in MMORPG's that their heart breaks to admit that all the achievements they earned were only because they slogged away for thousands of hours, not because they were actually good at anything.
In somewhat of a sociological patchwork, MMOs for our young generation are replacing the edicts of religions in the way that the values instilled in the followers of those religions form idiosyncratic movements to dissuade followers of rival religions of their beliefs at a most underlying level. You are allowed to play the MMO of your choosing, as long as it is the MMO that I'm telling you to choose. Of course I'm attempting to demonstrate the contrast between religious zealots and MMO zealots. I'm not attacking any religions, please be clear on that.
Originally posted by Kurush
I suppose that's ultimately the difference between the casual and hardcore MMORPG player. Casuals play for fun. Hardcores play for ego.
A fair observation that it is the ego that is binding to the games, I much prefer to question if it is perhaps the id that is gaining the attachment, and then rendering outward in the ego as a negative persona. All game players have the tie to the game at the id level, however most well balanced and normative people do not outwardly display hostility toward non-conformers of choice.
I myself when I first played mmo's. I took 5 played them all at the same time and judged which one at the time I thought best.
You 2nd reply to him. You don't need to make a distinct religon family guy and robot chicken does it for you, it's called christanity. They have long since been radical, they are in very much like in turn of the necromongers of Chronicals of riddick "Convert or die".
Your 3d reply I have no comment on.
Take a deep drink of your demon Lad, tonight we tangle with the fire in the gut.
If a classic UO server would be profitable, EA would already have launched one, its that simple. truth is, very few people are actually intrested enough in a classic UO server, or even UO in general out of the ones already playing.
[snip]
Instead of actually claiming something to be ignorant, perhaps you might take an example of Zaxtor and actually post a counter arguement?
@ Zaxtor, that may be so, but as you already pointed out yourself, those servers are completely free. even though they take donations, How many people actually donate as much as 15$ a month? hundreds, if not thousands of people are required to fill a server. Not to mention that server also comes with additional costs, and can be difficult to maintain, since people will still expect future updates, and with 2 complete diffrent rulesets, this COULD provide difficulty's.
EA doesn't have his head up its arse like some people would like to think. They are king when they see a way to make profit.
Originally posted by mindmeld Honestly i cant say i agree on any of your povs.. As have been said in the thread before every mmo are timesink only thing that differs is how you want to spend your time.As long its fun i dont care if anyone think the game is for children or whatnot my choice . And when i get tired of the game i will start a new game.
And again, I say there is a HUGE difference besides just a difference in the timesink.
WOW - PvP battle. PvP mage shoots a fire bolt at the warrior. Warrior can't do nothing except take it up the arse and simply plug away as fast as possible at his own hot bar.
AC1 - PvP battle. PvP mage shoots a dangerous fire bolt at the warrior. Warrior strafes to the left and avoids the deadly bolt my inches. PvP mage quickly shoots a streak of acid at the warrior in a desperate attempt to keep the warriors blades off of his uncoordinated body. Acid slams into warrior only because the warrior made a mad dash at the mage after dodging the fire bolt. Warrior hacks for a few seconds at the mage, more in vengeance then anything before stepping back to dodge the next acid bolt fired at him by the mage. Both the mage and warrior need a second to heal. The mage casts a self heal spell, the warrior quickly heals with a healing kit. On so on. The mage and the warrior both need to use skill and reflexes and good judgement on what, how, and when to do what.
There is a HUGE difference here, regardless of how many of you claim the only difference is the timesink involved.
As have been said in the thread before every mmo are timesink only thing that differs is how you want to spend your time. As long its fun i dont care if anyone think the game is for children or whatnot my choice .
And when i get tired of the game i will start a new game.
And again, I say there is a HUGE difference besides just a difference in the timesink.
WOW - PvP battle. PvP mage shoots a fire bolt at the warrior. Warrior can't do nothing except take it up the arse and simply plug away as fast as possible at his own hot bar.
AC1 - PvP battle. PvP mage shoots a dangerous fire bolt at the warrior. Warrior strafes to the left and avoids the deadly bolt my inches. PvP mage quickly shoots a streak of acid at the warrior in a desperate attempt to keep the warriors blades off of his uncoordinated body. Acid slams into warrior only because the warrior made a mad dash at the mage after dodging the fire bolt. Warrior hacks for a few seconds at the mage, more in vengeance then anything before stepping back to dodge the next acid bolt fired at him by the mage. Both the mage and warrior need a second to heal. The mage casts a self heal spell, the warrior quickly heals with a healing kit. On so on. The mage and the warrior both need to use skill and reflexes and good judgement on what, how, and when to do what.
There is a HUGE difference here, regardless of how many of you claim the only difference is the timesink involved.
- Zaxx
I think your giving WoW's pvp system far to little credit here. The Warrior doesn't have to just stand there. He can intercept, stunning the mage. he can move behind the mage, to avoid its fireball, and when close to the mage, he also has a diffrent number of options. another example, take the rogue class for example. Its best skills aren't working unless its behind the target, and there, he has a number of options. stun the target, or do a high damage attack. Sacrifice its combo points either to stun so it can heal or re-stealth, or use them for flat damage, or maybe to increase its attack speed.
While I completely agree that AC's pvp system gives the player much more control and is much more based on actual player skill then other MMORPG's, But WoW's pvp really isn't as simple as you make it sound.
Comments
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
I feel for you zaxtor, but I'm afraid that the problem is not that the games are boring. We have made them boring.
In fact, I would venture to say that the most hardcore amongst us were able to come to grips with the true essence of how an MMO needed to be played: as boringly as possible.
Why? When something is challenging, or exciting, or risky, then it means there is a chance for personal failure, or guild failure. Since the hardcore and hardcore guilds are willing to do whatever it takes not to fail, then the object of a game filled with risks, excitement, challenge, and danger is to not seek it out, but rather, to avoid it entirely.
I have to laugh when we talk about "risks" and "rewards," especially when it comes from the hardcores. Because hardcore players are the most risk adverse players I have ever seen, to the point of being no fun at all. They have never sought out risks, but rather, tried to get rewarded without taking risks, and are better "risk managers" then most insurance adjusters I have met.
If Creature A gives you more reward for less risk than Creature B, then most of the hardcore players I knew would simply grind on Creature A for eternity. In fact, they are so obsessed with efficiency, they'll even abandon any sense of immersion, character play, or friendliness in order to twink out as fast as possible.
They refuse to group with others not in their guild/voice system/clique, because grouping with an unknown is too risky. They won't pursue good quests if the time versus gain ratio isn't as good as elsewhere. They will not try exotic builds, or roleplay, because such things are wastes of time. You see, the hardcore knows that nobody ever got on the top of a PvP ranking ladder by RPing. Its wasted time, as far as most of the hardcore I have come to know.
Back in the days of UO Zaxx, we were all n00bs to MMOs, in all its 56K glory. We didn't have 200 member game hopping clans, TS/Vent, boards, internet cheat guides, etc. Everything that influenced the game was in the game, and so we played the game.
Its also how we played the game back then. We took people as they were. We played characters, not "geek football" positions (DPS, tank, healer, mezzer, etc.). Everyone was a part of our game, and worthy of knowing, whether they were hooked on TS/Vent, or not.
Hindsight being 20/20 though, nobody in their right mind would play today the way we played back then. We were pretty "stupid" back then. We took stupid chances, wasted a lot of grind time, grouped with people who weren't very "committed," and lost a lot of opportunity to get good loot, and prestige by doing pointless things like roleplay.
We are a lot "wiser" now on what to do in games like this. How to manage our risk better. How not to waste time. How to pwn, use the boards, use TS/Vent, use our guilds, and get on the ladder rankings. In short, we have learned how to master games like this, and so there isn't much left to get excited about.
So Zaxx, I'm afraid that even if they give us the type of game you describe, it isn't going to work like it did back in those old days on 56K. We let the business of play take precedence over the play, and all a "riskier" and "more rewarding" game will do is make us play more boringly than the next clan/guild/hardcore. The path to überness is actually very simple when your goal is to become über, and not to approach the game in the spirit in which it was developed: to be fun, relaxing, and evoke a sense of wonder.
These days, we could get the most deep and challenging game ever made. We'd just turn it into "mindless, un-challenging, all-reward, no risk eye candy," because that is what we strive to do.
Nobody ever got über by doing exciting and fun things Zaxx. They become über because they are willing to do things that are way too boring, in games that are way too fun.
well obviously.
when a hardcore player talks about 'risks' and 'rewards' they aren't talking about wanting to be punished, they merely understand the concept that running toward pleasure and away from pain is what makes life entertaining, so why shouldnt a game be the same way.
ever been polled over by a cop, or done something illegal and run from a cop?
it'll give you a sensation you've never felt before, because you know the consequences are severe.
mmo's that require you to use your imagination to supplant this energy and excitement only last so long, until the player realizes there is no punishment upon failure, and then the magic and energy is gone.
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
Well, I will give you much respect for a well thought out and understandable response. It's a hell of an improvement over the typical flames and personal insults one would expect with such a topic.
But what I speak of I guess is personal because I'm not talking about how the most uber gamers play a game to get to the top the quickest. I am simply talking about an mmo that IS actually much more challenging then what we have today as the most popular mmos to choose from. I will say this.. I have recently started playing (either Siege Perilous of UO or some other hardcore classic UO server) and am enjoying the living hell out of it. There are red murderers everywhere! It's classic UO greatness and loaded with players. The fun that I am having in this old school UO server blows away the challenge and fun that I have had in any mmo in the past several years... and I have played a LOT of the newer mmos, trust me)
See, when I play a great, challenging mmo where you drop important loot upon death and have to use skill and smarts rather then just blindly clicking away at your best damage hot bar buttons... I play it for the challenge. I take risks. I play the good guy who goes against high skilled or high level reds. I don't take the smart, efficient road typically, but look for something called "adventure" and "excitement" in my game play. I want to see if I can outsmart a red murderer player that has twice the armor and twice the stats that I do. This isn't high percentage play. Yet it is high excitement and high challenge play for me. And I friggin' love it. See, if I do this in a game like WOW and try to play a level 20 alliance toon and fight a level 25 horde, the stats and odds are totally against me.. even if my opponent is some mentally handicapped 6 year old kid.. I will lose. I will get pwned hard. He is clicking his best hot bar slash repeatedly and no matter what I do, I will get raped. There needs to be at least some skill required I suppose to make it fun for me.
Call me weird. But I love PvP where the loser loses mad loot upon death. Not because I want to gank much lower level players and take their stuff. Hell, that's easier then playing WOW. That's boring as hell. Anyone can do that. By now, you people that know me have heard me say a million times I want a CHALLENGE damn it. Ganking a player 20 levels below me while he is AFK is just too easy. Hell no, not me. When I played Asheron's Call on the Darktide PvP server back in 2001.. I played an anti-pk and was constantly trying to get the best of pk'ers twice and triple my level. Now THAT was fun! Sure, I got killed many, many times. And I lost so much loot to them it's not even funny. I spent much time way out in the middle of nowhere just trying to level up and replace all the good stuff I lost with new stuff.
But you know what? I still remember my first real pk kill in Asheron's Call. I was level 26 and I actually killed a level 65 red pk that was in my hometown of that virtual world of Dereth! I was sooo damn proud. Heh. I finally busted a red pk down that mattered. And the high I got from that kill was easily worth the 80 or 100 deaths I experienced from other pks who just ganked me up until that time.
In PvE, I get tired of spawn killing the same mobs over and over and over, regardless of the efficiency. This is the places that were typically camped out in Asherons Call with the illegal auto ran macro programs for people characters so that their toons would level up the quickest while they were AFK. I didn't want that. I wanted to be out trying to figure out how to kill some almost impossible monsters weaknesses and try and take it down... even if it meant dying to it 17 times first. With every death, if I saw some shimmer of possibility to beat it, I would be running back out to it to try it again!
This is NOT the high efficiency play you state that "hardcore" players love. If what you describe is hardcore, then I guess I'm either not hardcore, or I'm just a dumbass adventure seeker or something. What you describe as a hardcore player makes sense. The kind of player that just wants to get to the top with the most uber loot the fastest. Hell, if that's all I wanted, I'd love World of Warcraft.
Hopefully I have explained myself a bit further for those who care to know what it is I actually love and want... but the problem on these boards is that most really only find their adventure in trying to flame, outwit, or try and sound smarter then everyone else. '
I'm just one true gamer looking for some mmo "adventure" like I experienced my first few years with UO and AC1. I need a challenge in that game. I need there to be high risks and rewards and I need to lose something if I die. I gotta have PvP. Constantly fighting AI mobs gets old fast. But that PvP has to have a certain amount of skill required. If it's all just random or clicking a hot bar fast then any 3 year old can beat me and that's no fun. I need to actually feel like I've done something myself if I win. I need to feel that the outcome wasn't just a dice roll between two evenly matched characters.
I can hope can't I? I can dream. Or I can go back and play some old school UO. Horray for that!
Peace.
- Zaxx
maybe should feel ashamed about wasting your life staring into a screen for hours, geeking out over pixel things, that are devoid of anything of any meaning, that's abundant in the real world: flavor, an essence, touch, smell... (unless you live in a big city where everything is asphalted over and densely sprinkled wth giant concrete blocks... then of course, these games do seem the less dead thing to go to.
All these grindy games requiring more than very casual time commitment, can be seen as a flight into something less complex, less challenging than RL. So maybe game developers got it exactly right in not making anything challenging.
Thanks for judging me (and others) personal lives. See, this is what I mean by personal attacks with no basis what-so-ever.
Look Tsais, I truly understand that you likely understand all to well how addicting mmos can be. However, before you try and condemn everyone who plays or speaks fondly of mmos as to wasting their life.. perhaps you should understand that many, as myself, simply don't have 17 hours per day to play a video game. Some of us only get maybe 10 or 12 hours a week and we would rather play a good video game as a leisurely hobby then say 'watching the television'.
I haven't really played a video game more then say 12 hours per week in years. I have a family now. But that doesn't mean that I don't still desire to see an actual quality and challenging mmo come out in the fantasy genre.
But since you are so quick to judge me and/or others on how we all waste awy our lives on pixels.. what exactly are YOU doing on an mmo board forum? Oooooohhh, right. You have never wasted one moment of your life on a video game. Yeh. I know. Thanks for informing us all and caring so much as to try and warn us all of the great dangers of mmos to our lives. Thanks so much. I can tell you really care. It shows.
:-P
- Zaxx
Bring in the real money and it’s on! The brain kicks it up a few gears, the palms get sweaty, the emotions kick in…the rush, the fear, the adrenaline!
Games like WOW where there are no risks or rewards, no consequences for failing or feeling of accomplishment for winning – is much the same as playing poker with fake money. I can only pretend I care about the outcome for so long.
You hit the nail right on the head man, excellent post.
I am in exactly the same boat as you. Being an anti-pk was one hell of a good time in AC1, especially when the odd's were stacked up against you - man, what a rush that game was.
Long live UO and Darktide.
I really do think that the problem is that about 90% of the players who play WoW and other similar games don't even know what they are missing. They see a well packaged, fluid online game with a smooth game like WOW and just don't know how much better it COULD be! Hehe.
Anyhow, someone understands me! Come on now [some big capable game company]... deliver the goods for the players who love the real mmos with skill and challenge included. There's more out there that desire such a game then just me and osc8r here, I promise you. Many of those 8 million WOW fans would check it out if it just looked prettier on the new shiny box in Walmart, I promise you they would! And then they'd be friggin' hooked. Well some of them would be hooked on what we want anyhow. An'd you might not make 150 million per month or whatever like Blizzard, but you'd make PLENTY. And you'd make a LOT of old school and challenge loving mmo players really happy!
Hehe.
- Zaxx
If I have fun doing something I could give a rat's behind who else does it. I'm going to enjoy myself and my life as I see fit.
I understand where you're coming from but you're trying to make your point at the expense of anyone else who is having fun playing World of Warcraft. Maybe more players should want more out of a game, but you know what? We're not all the same. We all have different tastes, and it just so happens that in January 2007 more gamers are ok with the current offerings then those who aren't. Whether or not you or I like the market trend doesn't matter, and that may or may not be a shame.
I play Mario. I play Tetris. I play Spider Solitare.All three are mindless and shallow but to me they're a blast to play.
Play the games you enjoy and find challenging, and I'll do the same. And spread the word about those games in a way people are going to respect and understand. Just keep in mind that if you're going to underhandedly insult a group of people, don't expect them to sympathize or want to see things your way.
Edit: I'm not saying any of this with anger directed at you, which I realize might be interpreted from reading through my post. I just think there was a more respectful approach to the question, "Shouldn't we expect more from our MMO's?" But anyways, cheers.
There is no MMO that is truely a challenge and there never will be. UO certainly wasn't and niether is anything else.
Your shame and judgement terms of thinking are foreign to me ...religious upbringing?
and indeed I do play games, and you should relax a bit
Dude, I am perfectly relaxed. Also you didn't hit on nothing judging me. I asked for input, sure. Condemnations as to how I waste my life on pixels, etc etc I didn't ask for. But condemn away bro. Everyone on these forums talks about mmo video games. And I'm sure that's the reason you also are here. But condemn away for how people spend their time dude. Have fun with that.
- Zaxx
hahaha "end game content". This simple term says it all about the mindset of todays gamer. Due to games like WoW the expectations are so low now. UO set them high and WoW and the like came along and took us all back 10 years. (apart from Eve, Ryzom)
It's certainly not better than the rest.
I was one of those you mentioned, just reading and agreeing with what you wrote, planning not to respond, but what the hell.
There's a difference between playing checkers and chess, checkers is easy and quick to learn and therefore more kids probably end up playing it at some point. However, as a result of it's relative simplicity, it grows boring quickly. Chess, on the other hand, takes longer to learn and is more complex, but as a result it can be more challenging and is more rewarding to play in the long term. Most MMOGs are like checkers nowadays. With the MMOG market expanding so quickly, eventually there will be more chess MMOGs, it's just a matter of time.
But, that's why I'm playing these small games like Roma Victor, and looking forward to the possibility of Darkfall; while I am dissapointed at how ignorant EA is to still not have released a Classic Ultima Online server.
I would have to disagree with you once again here Gameloading...
Look at all the free UO shards which are some form of "classic UO" and all of these shards together host tens of thousands of players every month. Now, you can come back and say but they are free. Yes, they are. But a lot of them take Paypal donations and/or give your characters gold or other items for those donations, and likely a good majority of those free servers actually make considerable money off of them.
I would bet that a classic "No Trammel" server would be more popular then you might expect if they were to open one up.
- Zaxx
Take a deep drink of your demon Lad, tonight we tangle with the fire in the gut.
What is bad for MMOs in general, is an MMO that fails to stay active long enough for enough people to experience it, give it a fair shake, learn what is good/bad about it and eventualy move on to something different. Unfortunatly, when an MMO like WoW comes along, you end up with alot of first-time MMO players. Now this isn't bad in and of itself; what is bad is that a large percentile of these first-time players do not go play other MMOs to gain valuable experience in the genre. Sure they may not be new to electronic games in general, they are new to MMOs and need to understand what other MMOs have to offer as well. In this light, eventhough we may feel Zaxx's perspective is an illigitimate and immature plight, there is great value in his offering that we should perhaps challenge ourselves a little more to go out and discover other great MMOs that are not as popular as WoW.
In somewhat of a sociological patchwork, MMOs for our young generation are replacing the edicts of religions in the way that the values instilled in the followers of those religions form idiosyncratic movements to dissuade followers of rival religions of their beliefs at a most underlying level. You are allowed to play the MMO of your choosing, as long as it is the MMO that I'm telling you to choose. Of course I'm attempting to demonstrate the contrast between religious zealots and MMO zealots. I'm not attacking any religions, please be clear on that.
A fair observation that it is the ego that is binding to the games, I much prefer to question if it is perhaps the id that is gaining the attachment, and then rendering outward in the ego as a negative persona. All game players have the tie to the game at the id level, however most well balanced and normative people do not outwardly display hostility toward non-conformers of choice.
What is bad for MMOs in general, is an MMO that fails to stay active long enough for enough people to experience it, give it a fair shake, learn what is good/bad about it and eventualy move on to something different. Unfortunatly, when an MMO like WoW comes along, you end up with alot of first-time MMO players. Now this isn't bad in and of itself; what is bad is that a large percentile of these first-time players do not go play other MMOs to gain valuable experience in the genre. Sure they may not be new to electronic games in general, they are new to MMOs and need to understand what other MMOs have to offer as well. In this light, eventhough we may feel Zaxx's perspective is an illigitimate and immature plight, there is great value in his offering that we should perhaps challenge ourselves a little more to go out and discover other great MMOs that are not as popular as WoW.
In somewhat of a sociological patchwork, MMOs for our young generation are replacing the edicts of religions in the way that the values instilled in the followers of those religions form idiosyncratic movements to dissuade followers of rival religions of their beliefs at a most underlying level. You are allowed to play the MMO of your choosing, as long as it is the MMO that I'm telling you to choose. Of course I'm attempting to demonstrate the contrast between religious zealots and MMO zealots. I'm not attacking any religions, please be clear on that.
A fair observation that it is the ego that is binding to the games, I much prefer to question if it is perhaps the id that is gaining the attachment, and then rendering outward in the ego as a negative persona. All game players have the tie to the game at the id level, however most well balanced and normative people do not outwardly display hostility toward non-conformers of choice.
I myself when I first played mmo's. I took 5 played them all at the same time and judged which one at the time I thought best.
You 2nd reply to him. You don't need to make a distinct religon family guy and robot chicken does it for you, it's called christanity. They have long since been radical, they are in very much like in turn of the necromongers of Chronicals of riddick "Convert or die".
Your 3d reply I have no comment on.
Take a deep drink of your demon Lad, tonight we tangle with the fire in the gut.
[snip]
Instead of actually claiming something to be ignorant, perhaps you might take an example of Zaxtor and actually post a counter arguement?@ Zaxtor, that may be so, but as you already pointed out yourself, those servers are completely free. even though they take donations, How many people actually donate as much as 15$ a month? hundreds, if not thousands of people are required to fill a server. Not to mention that server also comes with additional costs, and can be difficult to maintain, since people will still expect future updates, and with 2 complete diffrent rulesets, this COULD provide difficulty's.
EA doesn't have his head up its arse like some people would like to think. They are king when they see a way to make profit.
As have been said in the thread before every mmo are timesink only thing that differs is how you want to spend your time.
As long its fun i dont care if anyone think the game is for children or whatnot my choice .
And when i get tired of the game i will start a new game.
-Semper ubi sub ubi!
always wear underwear
And again, I say there is a HUGE difference besides just a difference in the timesink.
WOW - PvP battle. PvP mage shoots a fire bolt at the warrior. Warrior can't do nothing except take it up the arse and simply plug away as fast as possible at his own hot bar.
AC1 - PvP battle. PvP mage shoots a dangerous fire bolt at the warrior. Warrior strafes to the left and avoids the deadly bolt my inches. PvP mage quickly shoots a streak of acid at the warrior in a desperate attempt to keep the warriors blades off of his uncoordinated body. Acid slams into warrior only because the warrior made a mad dash at the mage after dodging the fire bolt. Warrior hacks for a few seconds at the mage, more in vengeance then anything before stepping back to dodge the next acid bolt fired at him by the mage. Both the mage and warrior need a second to heal. The mage casts a self heal spell, the warrior quickly heals with a healing kit. On so on. The mage and the warrior both need to use skill and reflexes and good judgement on what, how, and when to do what.
There is a HUGE difference here, regardless of how many of you claim the only difference is the timesink involved.
- Zaxx
And again, I say there is a HUGE difference besides just a difference in the timesink.
WOW - PvP battle. PvP mage shoots a fire bolt at the warrior. Warrior can't do nothing except take it up the arse and simply plug away as fast as possible at his own hot bar.
AC1 - PvP battle. PvP mage shoots a dangerous fire bolt at the warrior. Warrior strafes to the left and avoids the deadly bolt my inches. PvP mage quickly shoots a streak of acid at the warrior in a desperate attempt to keep the warriors blades off of his uncoordinated body. Acid slams into warrior only because the warrior made a mad dash at the mage after dodging the fire bolt. Warrior hacks for a few seconds at the mage, more in vengeance then anything before stepping back to dodge the next acid bolt fired at him by the mage. Both the mage and warrior need a second to heal. The mage casts a self heal spell, the warrior quickly heals with a healing kit. On so on. The mage and the warrior both need to use skill and reflexes and good judgement on what, how, and when to do what.
There is a HUGE difference here, regardless of how many of you claim the only difference is the timesink involved.
I think your giving WoW's pvp system far to little credit here. The Warrior doesn't have to just stand there. He can intercept, stunning the mage. he can move behind the mage, to avoid its fireball, and when close to the mage, he also has a diffrent number of options. another example, take the rogue class for example. Its best skills aren't working unless its behind the target, and there, he has a number of options. stun the target, or do a high damage attack. Sacrifice its combo points either to stun so it can heal or re-stealth, or use them for flat damage, or maybe to increase its attack speed.- Zaxx
While I completely agree that AC's pvp system gives the player much more control and is much more based on actual player skill then other MMORPG's, But WoW's pvp really isn't as simple as you make it sound.