Originally posted by Andir What servers are you guys on? Seriously. I think the last time I saw someone berate someone else in chat was when they were provoking it. A typical chat session would have gone like so:JoeSmith shouts, "Anyone know where to find so and so?" Helper1 shouts, "Check your locations tab in the log book and see if it's there." (time passes) JoeSmith shouts, "Anyone know where to find so and so?" Helper2 shouts, "He's over by the bank area." (time passes) JoeSmith shouts, "Anyone know where to find so and so?" Helper3 shouts, "Over by the bank man, didn't you see Helper2's response?" JoeSmith shouts, "I've walked all around this stupid town and I can't find him. This game is so stupid. Everyone here sucks! This thing is buggy as hell. I can't even freakin find the guy I need for my quest." Helper3 shouts, "Where are you?" JoeSmith shouts, "In town." Helper3 shouts, "Where are you in town?" JoeSmith shouts, "Why does that matter? You can't tell me where this guy is?" Helper4 shouts, "What guy? Sorry, I just logged in." JoeSmith shouts, "The guy for this stupid retarded quest." Helper4 shouts, "gonna have to be a bit more specific than that. " JoeSmith shouts, "Damnit! Your all a bunch of @#$@%( retards. WoW will totally destroy this game."And it all goes downhill form there.
Quoted this whole post in reply because it supports the point I'l attempt to make here.
The problem is Community and Chat, and why it's become such a problem in current MMO's
Now i'l begin to beat my dead horse, please bear with me.
Chats as they exist now in Vanguard, and other games. Area wide, zone or region, promote bad behavior and anonymous verbal attack. Not always, but more often than your face to face speech bubble or UO style "text over head" communication.
I was in Vanguard beta 3, You may know me from VSoH by my nickname Atoyota. I posted my concerns over community issues regarding chat boxes (glorified IRC chatroom style communication). My fears that it results in a lesser quality community or inhibits a good one.
The primary argument against speech bubbles is visual, but that's an esthetic issue and can be done in a variety of ways, or also optionally used by the players.
So which is worse? Slight visual disruption in populated areas or bad behavior and the neccesity for GM moderation in chat boxes? It is to me a modern day gaming dilema.
To give more strength to my argument, let's take the example of what I've quoted above. You have a guy that is frustrated and asking for help. Running around town, which should have other players in it as well. He can ask in /say (speech bubble) for help, and speak face to face with whomever listens or is willing to offer him help. They are right there, they can direct him with visual que's or even take him directly to the npc he requires.
Suppose no one listens or helps, or they just stand there face to face insulting him. Then I'd say yeah bad community, but I honestly feel there is less of a chance for that to happen in chat bubbles. Anonymity is why chat boxes can be so rude.
It's a utility common in MMO's and for guilds and parties it's fine... everyone is on the "same page" in those chats, plus everyone knows each other. In MOB chat's, server, region, or area... you don't know the other person, you don't have the same agenda or anything in common other than the game itself. Rudenness prevails, and I've seen it in WoW, so I'm sure it exists in Vanguard... it's a given.
So if things will ever change, if ever you hope to have a close community in a game again. Please help me ressurect my dead horse. It's a good horse, it served me well in UO, and I made friends I made there that I have known for a decade now. All because we met in game with chat bubbles
No more Trivial MMO's, let's get serious "again". Make a world, not a game What I listen to
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
You know most the time people are provoked right? Like this post and title for example. Do you expect someone to come in and apologize? Seriously...
As for the community in game, I only had a problem with it on the FFA PvP server. Shout was horribly annoying, and nobody helped each other. On my PvE server, things are quite a bit different. Less crap in shout, more people being helpful, and so forth. There's still the odd set of stupid things (Like a discussion about how these two people wanted to kill SoE employees...) But overall, a big improvement.
One thing I noticed is new players coming in would instamtly do oocs wondering where this mob was or that mob was. Gee arent you supposed to run around and look??? If ya want the game played for you just send me your password and username and log back in , in oh say about 6 weeks you will still be lvl 1 .Took me three hours to figure out a quest in VG but no way was I gonna ask in game. Its a good feeling to me to figure it out on my own. Try it you might like it.
I agree this community is the absolute pits, they consistently launch personal attacks against everyone. Right now I would not play the game for free. They always talk trash about the WoW community but these guys make the stereotypical WoW kiddie look like a mature college professor in comparison.
Hard to believe anyone would launch a personal attack on you in Vanguard...you have shown it such unfailing support.
By the way, I had a group escort me from a hairy area on Thestra all the way from 3 rivers to the New Targ docks last night. I in turn helped someone find the right spot on the docks he was looking for and then tonight helped 1 person thru tells get from Martok to Qalia (about an hour of help in total). I have had solid pick up groups (without 1 death bailers or 5 minute wonders), I've had 30 min tell/conversations from people helping with class attributes, answering my diplomacy questions, etc. I've had drive by buffs, unsolicited rez's, etc.
All of us were perfect strangers.
I have witnessed community bashing 2 times since beta 2. One started from a guy who began his question with, "This game sux so bad, I died and all my equipment is gone..." and the other one from a troll who got the open beta, made a toon named "Thisgamsux" and started with a /shout "<---- the name says it all". I believe he came here and created an account to do the same thing in these forums.
I have had no real negative community experiences at all. I have noticed the community banding together to insure that the general chat doesn't end up like the Barrens. I call that a plus for the community.
Pretty much my experience so far as well. We formed up a group to hit a dungeon, and when we had our first wipe, my thoughts were..."Who's going to just drop group and run now?" and nobody did. It was inspiring actually.
Reputation means something in Vanguard which isnt really the case in WoW. If you get known for a player that leaves a group after being wiped in time it will get almost impossible to get a group.
I have been playing this game for a few weeks now, and honestly have not met one a**hole. I have grouped with several people and everyone has been friendly and helpful. One problem I see is that people use shout for every question. Most of them are asking where quest items can be found, i always respond with tips on how to use the tools.. like the map and quest log (which tells you EXACTLY where the quest item can be found). but i respond in tell, trying to teach them... if I can help someone enjoy the game more then the 5 seconds i spend answering there question was worth it...
Older mature people are playing Vanguard. Many have also had their feel of the less mature or completely idiotic "other people" that populate many popular MMORPGs. Lets face it many of us have played MMORPGs for 8 years now and have had a facefull of idiots. That grinds on people's maturity sometimes and make us grumpy old MMORPG veterans. We get crotchety.
Another reason is that Vanguard also has the rudest bunch of anti-Vanguard Trolls in the short history of MMORPGs. Lets face it, SOE haters, WOW fanbois, ticked off wanna players with older PCs, SWG refugees, Can't wait for Conan fanbois etc etc etc etc. All of them are all over Vanguard. Most people who have tried to stay optimistic for the last few years of development but after the tirade of "Vanguard sux" posts have become a little bitter.
Lastly Vanguard will get those "hardcore" guys who act like army drill sergeants and tell you to "suck it up and figure it out yourself nubee". These guys believe in earning everything including basic information like where the bank is.
Not saying this justifies any rudeness you may suffer in the community but I do think Vanguard deserves to be a little more grumpy than some. We are fighting the 8 million strong army of the People's Republic of WOW. That makes anyone pissy.
Overall though I've seen very few jerks in Vanguard. I've seen people spam the shout channel talking about football or asking the same question 30 times when no one answers that have gotten a smartass remark but that happens in any game. Maybe you just got a bad server?
Okay, I just started playing the retail of Vanguard, never player the Beta. I'm such a noob, I can't even remember the name of my server. Still, people are asking OOC questions, and getting helpful answers. I respond to these with a tell, many of these people don't even know the command for tell, and keep talking OOC. Still, the community is developing. It takes some patience, community does not come in an instant mix.
I have noticed that, starting out by answering questions, people were sceptical of the answers. For example, one person asked if a certain quest was bugged, to which I replied no, that I had just completed it. he was sceptical that I was just giving him a line, so we discussed the quest, and I filled in the part he had missed. He accomplished the part, and thanked me.
Maybe the shortcomings of the community are due to the impatience of the Beta testers with the noobs, but I find the noobs to be very patient with each other.
Yeah there's a lot of newbie questions-- I'm guilty of that too, usually get a dickheaded response in /shout but someone usually sends me a tell the answer to my question.
I got the same responses when I was played WOW. I got more help in Vangurad than I did with WOW. But I guess it is one's person option.
Originally posted by bob_sandwich
Yeah there's a lot of newbie questions-- I'm guilty of that too, usually get a dickheaded response in /shout but someone usually sends me a tell the answer to my question.
So not so bad in my humble opinion.
Keep smiling and make them wonder what you are smiling about
I don't know if it's been said before or not but I didn't feel like reading 20 pages of replies, so here goes. While I completely disagree with the OP, and really think he's just trying to stir the pot, I think it's really too early to realistically judge the community as a whole. The game just went live. Open beta was free. It was filled with all the curious a--holes from every other game on the market. And most took one look at a laggy, buggy , otherwise normal beta, hit level 2 after 3 minutes, and started flaming away in chat or shouts. Most, if not all, of the rude exchanges I saw at that time were due to those types of situations. That little example conversation post further up in the thread on like page 2 or 3 hit the nail on the head there. You act like a jerk , expect to be treated in kind.
Now that the game is live, we may see the player base move towards the more serious player - people who actually want to play the game and pay for it. Not just curious people passing by, refusing to give the game a chance before they even load it on their system. Just give it a couple months and then reconsider the community. Everyone I have seen and interacted with in live, for the most part, has been very helpful and friendly. Everyone is still learning about the game. There is A LOT that has yet to even be discovered. for the first time. I'm still getting first discovery notices on crafting recipes. It's give and take like any game, and you will get your share of jerks in any game, just like in real life. You can't judge everyone based on a couple of idiots.
Maybe ppl just don't get the jokes. Yeah ppl say silly stuff but its normally a joke and not intended to be elitist or nasty.
Also ever watch a movie where someoen keeps saying whats going on? Who's he? It's annoying. Sometime i guess ppl just want to say work it out on your own.
Although there are certainly over the top vangaurd fans the reason most of them hate wow is because, like me, they were forced to play it as the only decent mmo out there for a while and got rediculously sick of the antics of the hordes of children (and no i'm not saying every is a kid but when school gets out at 3 pvp goes downhill and spamming and flame wars go up). I have a lot of resentment myself, and its hard to keep it in check after all the bs i've experienced in that game. If someone says wow kiddie and you are not a wow kiddie then don't get offended. I think you are bitter haf because you are trying to defend the wow community and, well, its tough.
I think there is something here that has to be put into perspective. There is a difference between helping/teaching someone and hold their hand like a small child and doing it for them. I think there a lot of people that have come over to VG from WoW that have this mindset like "everything should be easy, I just have to put the time in". When they're hit with the fact that perhaps they have to look for something for more than 2 minutes or have to use their head a little they get a little overcome and throw up the white flag. Now while I don't mind spending an hour explaining diplomacy, harvesting, crafting or anything else game related to a willing student I refuse to carry a person.
There's an old saying "I GIVE you a fish you eat for a day, I TEACH you to fish you eat for a lieftime"
Mature? In Vanguard? Only the kiddies in Vanguard will ever say the Vanguard community is mature. It is, without a doubt, the worst, childish, most offensive and abusive community in MMO History so far, and the only explanation I can find, is that it consist of all the people that was banned from WoW. Seriously. Its just one long, neverending wave of stupidity. Game is not bad.. It has flaws but its not bad. But the complete twats that play it are making sure most will never touch that junk with a ten foot pole. Its like paying 15 bucks a month to watch a neverending Jessica Simpson video.. Just stupidity in motion.
Vanguard **should** have a milder amount of rudeness, again, for several reasons.
-Not many young people will play this as opposed to Wow, where visible character gain happens more rapidly. Plus all of thier friends are playing WoW.
-Steep hardware requirements will by default limit the amount of players.
-Over whelming group of new VG players are UO or EQ "vets", this being the case most seem to be more interested in the game itself.
-3 spheres will be a turn off to players looking for the quick fix.
Maybe... just maybe...
Those so called kiddies in WoW are the nice and helpful ones, and all the older gamers who will go to Vanguard are the asses.
First off, I question that you have even played the game. I doubt very seriously that you are getting in free of charge. I also disagree that the peeps in the game are rude, so far I have found them to be helpful and fun to run with. I think all of you SOE haters need to find a hobby.
I've found the opposite of the OP, in general the level of courtesy and friendliness is far superior to many other games I've tried, I've had lots of enjoyable pickup groups and many less dire ones than in other games that shall go without mentioning, but then I'm not still in the starter areas.
Starter areas chat as a general rule always always conforms to the sh1t floats to the top, the rudest, out to annoy or too lazy to breathe will nearly always float to the top of /shout in those areas because that simply suits their agenda. Even that said I've yet to see anything as truly shocking as "guild for sale with 53 members - PST". If you can't deal with The Barrens type chat and listening to those who are on the me me me me lock your attention on me self-stroke in chat - then Rclick the tab name & turn off the channels that bother you, or create a new tab, move them there and only view them when you're in the mood.
We're never going to get back some mysterious heyday when everyone was all cuddles and help - 10 years ago you logged into UO left town and someone killed you and took everything you owned. There was no ooc or shout to listen to people whine at each other about stuff better handled in tells, luckily if you move it to a new tab you don't have to listen to it now either unless you're in the mood.
For me VG has been a great experience so far, I keep bumping into old friends & aquaintances & guilds who say oh hey aren't you the same X from Y in EQ, UO, WoW etc I'm having a blast.
Om my server, peeps are so helpful... they answer every question peeps ask, they help so much, i havent met a better community than i have in vanguard, so great and mature
I have played a lot of MMOs, some a really long time on several servers. But I must agree to the OP, alas. I have never seen so many aggressive people both in the diverse forums as in the game then in Vanguard. They might in the end be the true bane of this game. What I do NOT understand however is, why this is tolerated. Just watch Silky Venom, the unofficial official forum, or some servers - not all are equally aggressive. People are allowed to slander, ridicule and drag down other without moderators deleting the posts or banning the people. It is beyond me.
In the many years I have learned America has another culture of speech than Europe, where I come from. I am used to moderators in Europe deleting degrading forum replies MUCH swifter than it is usually in USA the case. I do not critizie this, I just state the fact. I have talked to many online friends from France, Scandinavia, Italy and other countries besides my own (Germany) and they all feel about this the same and told me the same standards are usually on their national forums than I am used to.
I really enjoyed being on US servers, because they have an international community and I have many online friends from US. But I must admit the forum and online chat conversation has degraded in the last years in the US community that for the first time in 6 years Online gaming I seriously think to leave US servers and forums. It is not what I like to do, because I never liked the idea to hide in nationalized communities and I always loved the international get-together Online games made possible. I dunno, maybe something is going on in USA which makes people aggressive, I can't say. But I face aggression much more than in the years before. In the old SWG days or DAoC days I NEVER faced anything close to whats going on today in more and more forums and MMOs. I really think moderators in forums and chat channels should act more to prevent flame wars and hate speeches. I know, this goes against what you are raised with, the total freedom of speech. It is only friendly advise, no more. But leting people drag down serious posts by answering 20, 30 or 40 times in the same thread, alsways with bitching 1-word replies with the only goal to destroy all serious conversation should be stopped. People who are obviously unwillng to LISTEN what another person has to say, should have no space for their anti-social behaviour IMO. Yeah, that means to delete and close posts.
But many forums have reached a point where people are AFRAID to post! No person should be allowed to create an atmosphere of fear in forums or games by endless sarcastic, witty and respectless comments. And we need more than "we all should be more nice" calls, we need courageous and swift moderators which act more against such people than in the past.
Can you imagine how many people stay away from VG because of the bad community? I think we all pay the price for not acting against this in the end.
EDIT: Keep in mind, in forums or chat people do NOT see your facial expression or hear your tone. What may sound funny of you say that to someone who knows your humor, and can judge it with your expression or tone, in chat / forums people can not. Many arguments spring from this misconception. A forum or online game is a public place, you are NOT at home, even though you sit at your computer, and thus people are bound to the same etiquette to behaviour than in any public place.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Interestingly enugh before the open beta, community was really mature and helpful. Once open beta started the flood of idiots came and unfortunately many of them rremained there until release.
Mmmmm I seem to recall alot of discussions about game play mechanics turning into WoW bash fests. Trying to talk about the maps and what we would like to see changed got shouted down with "go back to WoW, having any map is too much!". You get the idea.
The one thing I liked about DaOC roleplay servers, wasnt the roleplaying it was that there were NO zone or ooc chat. Sometimes silence trully is golden.
Comments
Quoted this whole post in reply because it supports the point I'l attempt to make here.
The problem is Community and Chat, and why it's become such a problem in current MMO's
Now i'l begin to beat my dead horse, please bear with me.
Chats as they exist now in Vanguard, and other games. Area wide, zone or region, promote bad behavior and anonymous verbal attack. Not always, but more often than your face to face speech bubble or UO style "text over head" communication.
I was in Vanguard beta 3, You may know me from VSoH by my nickname Atoyota. I posted my concerns over community issues regarding chat boxes (glorified IRC chatroom style communication). My fears that it results in a lesser quality community or inhibits a good one.
The primary argument against speech bubbles is visual, but that's an esthetic issue and can be done in a variety of ways, or also optionally used by the players.
So which is worse? Slight visual disruption in populated areas or bad behavior and the neccesity for GM moderation in chat boxes? It is to me a modern day gaming dilema.
To give more strength to my argument, let's take the example of what I've quoted above. You have a guy that is frustrated and asking for help. Running around town, which should have other players in it as well. He can ask in /say (speech bubble) for help, and speak face to face with whomever listens or is willing to offer him help. They are right there, they can direct him with visual que's or even take him directly to the npc he requires.
Suppose no one listens or helps, or they just stand there face to face insulting him. Then I'd say yeah bad community, but I honestly feel there is less of a chance for that to happen in chat bubbles. Anonymity is why chat boxes can be so rude.
It's a utility common in MMO's and for guilds and parties it's fine... everyone is on the "same page" in those chats, plus everyone knows each other. In MOB chat's, server, region, or area... you don't know the other person, you don't have the same agenda or anything in common other than the game itself. Rudenness prevails, and I've seen it in WoW, so I'm sure it exists in Vanguard... it's a given.
So if things will ever change, if ever you hope to have a close community in a game again. Please help me ressurect my dead horse. It's a good horse, it served me well in UO, and I made friends I made there that I have known for a decade now. All because we met in game with chat bubbles
No more Trivial MMO's, let's get serious "again". Make a world, not a game
What I listen to
A) the OP is on a REALLY bad server
C) I'm on a REALLY good server
It's either one or a combination of these three IMO.
PersonA: How do you do PvP?
PersonB: You die we laugh
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
As for the community in game, I only had a problem with it on the FFA PvP server. Shout was horribly annoying, and nobody helped each other. On my PvE server, things are quite a bit different. Less crap in shout, more people being helpful, and so forth. There's still the odd set of stupid things (Like a discussion about how these two people wanted to kill SoE employees...) But overall, a big improvement.
Hard to believe anyone would launch a personal attack on you in Vanguard...you have shown it such unfailing support.
By the way, I had a group escort me from a hairy area on Thestra all the way from 3 rivers to the New Targ docks last night. I in turn helped someone find the right spot on the docks he was looking for and then tonight helped 1 person thru tells get from Martok to Qalia (about an hour of help in total). I have had solid pick up groups (without 1 death bailers or 5 minute wonders), I've had 30 min tell/conversations from people helping with class attributes, answering my diplomacy questions, etc. I've had drive by buffs, unsolicited rez's, etc.
All of us were perfect strangers.
I have witnessed community bashing 2 times since beta 2. One started from a guy who began his question with, "This game sux so bad, I died and all my equipment is gone..." and the other one from a troll who got the open beta, made a toon named "Thisgamsux" and started with a /shout "<---- the name says it all". I believe he came here and created an account to do the same thing in these forums.
I have had no real negative community experiences at all. I have noticed the community banding together to insure that the general chat doesn't end up like the Barrens. I call that a plus for the community.
Pretty much my experience so far as well. We formed up a group to hit a dungeon, and when we had our first wipe, my thoughts were..."Who's going to just drop group and run now?" and nobody did. It was inspiring actually.Reputation means something in Vanguard which isnt really the case in WoW. If you get known for a player that leaves a group after being wiped in time it will get almost impossible to get a group.
I have been playing this game for a few weeks now, and honestly have not met one a**hole. I have grouped with several people and everyone has been friendly and helpful. One problem I see is that people use shout for every question. Most of them are asking where quest items can be found, i always respond with tips on how to use the tools.. like the map and quest log (which tells you EXACTLY where the quest item can be found). but i respond in tell, trying to teach them... if I can help someone enjoy the game more then the 5 seconds i spend answering there question was worth it...
One thought... it could be there server community
Older mature people are playing Vanguard. Many have also had their feel of the less mature or completely idiotic "other people" that populate many popular MMORPGs. Lets face it many of us have played MMORPGs for 8 years now and have had a facefull of idiots. That grinds on people's maturity sometimes and make us grumpy old MMORPG veterans. We get crotchety.
Another reason is that Vanguard also has the rudest bunch of anti-Vanguard Trolls in the short history of MMORPGs. Lets face it, SOE haters, WOW fanbois, ticked off wanna players with older PCs, SWG refugees, Can't wait for Conan fanbois etc etc etc etc. All of them are all over Vanguard. Most people who have tried to stay optimistic for the last few years of development but after the tirade of "Vanguard sux" posts have become a little bitter.
Lastly Vanguard will get those "hardcore" guys who act like army drill sergeants and tell you to "suck it up and figure it out yourself nubee". These guys believe in earning everything including basic information like where the bank is.
Not saying this justifies any rudeness you may suffer in the community but I do think Vanguard deserves to be a little more grumpy than some. We are fighting the 8 million strong army of the People's Republic of WOW. That makes anyone pissy.
Overall though I've seen very few jerks in Vanguard. I've seen people spam the shout channel talking about football or asking the same question 30 times when no one answers that have gotten a smartass remark but that happens in any game. Maybe you just got a bad server?
Okay, I just started playing the retail of Vanguard, never player the Beta. I'm such a noob, I can't even remember the name of my server. Still, people are asking OOC questions, and getting helpful answers. I respond to these with a tell, many of these people don't even know the command for tell, and keep talking OOC. Still, the community is developing. It takes some patience, community does not come in an instant mix.
I have noticed that, starting out by answering questions, people were sceptical of the answers. For example, one person asked if a certain quest was bugged, to which I replied no, that I had just completed it. he was sceptical that I was just giving him a line, so we discussed the quest, and I filled in the part he had missed. He accomplished the part, and thanked me.
Maybe the shortcomings of the community are due to the impatience of the Beta testers with the noobs, but I find the noobs to be very patient with each other.
So not so bad in my humble opinion.
Keep smiling and make them wonder what you are smiling about
Now that the game is live, we may see the player base move towards the more serious player - people who actually want to play the game and pay for it. Not just curious people passing by, refusing to give the game a chance before they even load it on their system. Just give it a couple months and then reconsider the community. Everyone I have seen and interacted with in live, for the most part, has been very helpful and friendly. Everyone is still learning about the game. There is A LOT that has yet to even be discovered. for the first time. I'm still getting first discovery notices on crafting recipes. It's give and take like any game, and you will get your share of jerks in any game, just like in real life. You can't judge everyone based on a couple of idiots.
Maybe ppl just don't get the jokes. Yeah ppl say silly stuff but its normally a joke and not intended to be elitist or nasty.
Also ever watch a movie where someoen keeps saying whats going on? Who's he? It's annoying. Sometime i guess ppl just want to say work it out on your own.
Although there are certainly over the top vangaurd fans the reason most of them hate wow is because, like me, they were forced to play it as the only decent mmo out there for a while and got rediculously sick of the antics of the hordes of children (and no i'm not saying every is a kid but when school gets out at 3 pvp goes downhill and spamming and flame wars go up). I have a lot of resentment myself, and its hard to keep it in check after all the bs i've experienced in that game. If someone says wow kiddie and you are not a wow kiddie then don't get offended. I think you are bitter haf because you are trying to defend the wow community and, well, its tough.
I think there is something here that has to be put into perspective. There is a difference between helping/teaching someone and hold their hand like a small child and doing it for them. I think there a lot of people that have come over to VG from WoW that have this mindset like "everything should be easy, I just have to put the time in". When they're hit with the fact that perhaps they have to look for something for more than 2 minutes or have to use their head a little they get a little overcome and throw up the white flag. Now while I don't mind spending an hour explaining diplomacy, harvesting, crafting or anything else game related to a willing student I refuse to carry a person.
There's an old saying "I GIVE you a fish you eat for a day, I TEACH you to fish you eat for a lieftime"
-Not many young people will play this as opposed to Wow, where visible character gain happens more rapidly. Plus all of thier friends are playing WoW.
-Steep hardware requirements will by default limit the amount of players.
-Over whelming group of new VG players are UO or EQ "vets", this being the case most seem to be more interested in the game itself.
-3 spheres will be a turn off to players looking for the quick fix.
Maybe... just maybe...
Those so called kiddies in WoW are the nice and helpful ones, and all the older gamers who will go to Vanguard are the asses.
Starter areas chat as a general rule always always conforms to the sh1t floats to the top, the rudest, out to annoy or too lazy to breathe will nearly always float to the top of /shout in those areas because that simply suits their agenda. Even that said I've yet to see anything as truly shocking as "guild for sale with 53 members - PST". If you can't deal with The Barrens type chat and listening to those who are on the me me me me lock your attention on me self-stroke in chat - then Rclick the tab name & turn off the channels that bother you, or create a new tab, move them there and only view them when you're in the mood.
We're never going to get back some mysterious heyday when everyone was all cuddles and help - 10 years ago you logged into UO left town and someone killed you and took everything you owned. There was no ooc or shout to listen to people whine at each other about stuff better handled in tells, luckily if you move it to a new tab you don't have to listen to it now either unless you're in the mood.
For me VG has been a great experience so far, I keep bumping into old friends & aquaintances & guilds who say oh hey aren't you the same X from Y in EQ, UO, WoW etc I'm having a blast.
I have played a lot of MMOs, some a really long time on several servers. But I must agree to the OP, alas. I have never seen so many aggressive people both in the diverse forums as in the game then in Vanguard. They might in the end be the true bane of this game. What I do NOT understand however is, why this is tolerated. Just watch Silky Venom, the unofficial official forum, or some servers - not all are equally aggressive. People are allowed to slander, ridicule and drag down other without moderators deleting the posts or banning the people. It is beyond me.
In the many years I have learned America has another culture of speech than Europe, where I come from. I am used to moderators in Europe deleting degrading forum replies MUCH swifter than it is usually in USA the case. I do not critizie this, I just state the fact. I have talked to many online friends from France, Scandinavia, Italy and other countries besides my own (Germany) and they all feel about this the same and told me the same standards are usually on their national forums than I am used to.
I really enjoyed being on US servers, because they have an international community and I have many online friends from US. But I must admit the forum and online chat conversation has degraded in the last years in the US community that for the first time in 6 years Online gaming I seriously think to leave US servers and forums. It is not what I like to do, because I never liked the idea to hide in nationalized communities and I always loved the international get-together Online games made possible. I dunno, maybe something is going on in USA which makes people aggressive, I can't say. But I face aggression much more than in the years before. In the old SWG days or DAoC days I NEVER faced anything close to whats going on today in more and more forums and MMOs. I really think moderators in forums and chat channels should act more to prevent flame wars and hate speeches. I know, this goes against what you are raised with, the total freedom of speech. It is only friendly advise, no more. But leting people drag down serious posts by answering 20, 30 or 40 times in the same thread, alsways with bitching 1-word replies with the only goal to destroy all serious conversation should be stopped. People who are obviously unwillng to LISTEN what another person has to say, should have no space for their anti-social behaviour IMO. Yeah, that means to delete and close posts.
But many forums have reached a point where people are AFRAID to post! No person should be allowed to create an atmosphere of fear in forums or games by endless sarcastic, witty and respectless comments. And we need more than "we all should be more nice" calls, we need courageous and swift moderators which act more against such people than in the past.
Can you imagine how many people stay away from VG because of the bad community? I think we all pay the price for not acting against this in the end.
EDIT: Keep in mind, in forums or chat people do NOT see your facial expression or hear your tone. What may sound funny of you say that to someone who knows your humor, and can judge it with your expression or tone, in chat / forums people can not. Many arguments spring from this misconception. A forum or online game is a public place, you are NOT at home, even though you sit at your computer, and thus people are bound to the same etiquette to behaviour than in any public place.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I'd really like to see removing chatboxes, and just how making it all speech bubble would affect community.
I'm convinced that the problem exists with IRC style chat.
Sure players grieve and whine over the visual, but I described the why of it, and the how of speech bubbles as a solution in this thread.
You'l have to read (back to) my post to see this.
but /shrug.. I don't care. Not a game I'm playing
No more Trivial MMO's, let's get serious "again". Make a world, not a game
What I listen to
Feniks Reborn Sorcerer of Tharridon ~Vanguard~
That was early beta 3.
John P Cooper