I guess from the tone of the replies that not may here are involved with the finances of a company.
Companies operate on very slim margins, it does not take much to push one into the red. Losing even 5% of accounts could be terminal for CCP. And certainly would involve job losses.
There will always be people leaving, always be people joining. What is important is that the number joining is less than the number leaving. And that the average time that an account is active is either stationary or increasing.
This scandal is hurting Eve's rating on this site, so less people are going to try Eve. If your userbase is angry then they are less likely to recommend the game. So again less new starts. This is almost as harmful as people leaving.
Most people won't leave, they will just be less likely to renew. So the effect of this may not be seen for months.
Also, ST:Online is in the wings, when it goes beta a lot of people could jusmp ship then.
[...] These issues in themselves will not bring down Eve. The majority of the playerbase don't even know it has happened. [...]
I would say more then quitting players that these allegations will effect new players. I don't think as many people will sign up for Eve - I might be completely wrong on that. I know I wouldn't.
My guess is that it will affect 2 types of players:
a) new players who read up on EVE on sites such as mmorpg.com and find honest, disappointed statements from people like us
b) very active veteran players who invested a lot of time and effort in EVE and are very disappointed with the unprofessional attitude of the CCP employees
Think about it, most of EVE is supported by those 2 kinds of players: the new players stay for a little while only usually, but the continuous supply of them (so far) gives CCP a steady income. The veterans are those with multiple accounts and sometimes ISK purchases (from GTCs), so every veteran lost means several accounts gone and possibly some friends gone too, as well as a negative impact on a large group of farmers etc. who depend on highly active players to make their farming worthwhile...
I don't know if this will become a serious problem for CCP, but I wouldn't entirely dismiss the possibility...
I will do what I do, and play with my freinds and corp mates until something better comes along. Before all this whitewash It would have taken a damn good game to pull me from Eve permanently, now its just a case of looking I'm afraid
I guess from the tone of the replies that not may here are involved with the finances of a company. Companies operate on very slim margins, it does not take much to push one into the red. Losing even 5% of accounts could be terminal for CCP. And certainly would involve job losses.
You can't generalize like that. CCP might be losing money already or having a margin of 80%+, we can't know this and it's pointless to guess or look at similar companies to derive some estimate. If I had to, I'd guess that CCP is earning a lot of money right now, but they are also in serious trouble with their technical issues they can't solve and the resulting costs (petitions etc.). A PR disaster like the current one could easily bring them down in some sort of chain reaction (lots of negative PR everywhere, more and more people leaving because key players are gone etc.).
I don't know about other veterans, but now that I cancelled my accounts because of the cheating, I don't feel like going back unless they not only make it clear that they won't cheat again, but they'll also need to make a good progress with fixing bugs and lag...
CCP's whitewash of the whole affair has been one of the biggest acts of cowardice I have witnessed in a while.
To me they have clearly been caught with their pants down and they obviously expect us to drop ours and bend over.
I doubt that all we have heard is all that has happened and I can't help wondering if the reason CCP has refused to take action, against anyone, is because they fear a banned/fired player/dev will spill the beans. I know, I know, tinfoil hats ahoy, but CCP's lack of answers has left it open to speculation. The fact that they are locking or deleting posts or threads refering to this matter would seem to imply that something is being hidden.
If you are thinking about starting this game I would stronly recomment that you dont. It would seem that EVE is not as fair and balanced as the Developers would like you to think. If you don't mind playing with a stacked deck, me and a few friends have a poker night you might be interested in
I'm not a veteran of Eve by any account, I played for 9 months, but both of my accounts are cancelled. I'm not going to do business with a company that I can't trust and which isn't willing to hear my complaints.
But I doubt seriously that enough people feel the way I do to make a difference. CCP is a corrupt company, but they make a product people really want to buy. I am sure they will survive this just fine, the same as every other company that this sort of thing happens to. There will be a big outcry for a short time, long- (and short-) time customers will boycott the company and stop buying the product, but in the end it will all be forgotten.
Until the next time a CCP employee gets caught cheating and CCP covers it up, whereupon it will all start up again.
I am a veteran of the game and I have been very vocal about my dislike for this cover up within the actual CCP forums using my pilots name, the same one you see above my reply here.
CCP is not a corrupt company. Yes a Dev cheated and I suspect a few more underhand deals have gone down or at least the current episode hasn't been fully uncovered, however this is still based on individuals and not the company as a whole.
The problem some of us have with the whole episode is not that CCP do nothing but rather they didn't do enough in our minds and they took 6 months to tell us, only after it was leaked by other people.
Then they started damage control and blatantly ignored our pleas for more information. It is the whitewash that we are upset by not the wholesale corruption some of you seem to be attempting.
BoB are not all to blame, I have some freinds in that alliance and whilst I often insult them for being in there in a humorous way I also know they can be trusted enough to tell me the truth as a friend. The Dev in question, t20, cocked up. It wasn't delt with in a very open manner. These things can be corrected, these things do not make a entire company corrupt.
Anyone reading this should try the game, its a damn good game! With luck they will learn from this and make sure it doesn't happen again. If they do that quickly enough then I'll be playing for a long long time. If not, then I won't. I'm still glad I played the game from beta though and don't regret one second of my time in there.
Of course the fact that they deleted the post that leads to this site on there forums in the time it took me to write my defense of the entire so called "corrupt company" does not help there case!
Stupid CCP, stupid! You make people like myself bend all the way to the other side... Lets see if you can grow up eh?
I don't think i would quit this game, and why should i?
Just because one man did a mistake?
And another man plays his personal revenge or whatever through this mistake?
Possibly not, and i have to say, if those guys surrounding kugutsumen leave EVE i have more chances to get higher up in the game, so i have to see the other side of kugutsumens action, more power to the fresh starters. The whining front that's leaving EVE don't have the teeth to fight that overwhelimng power of BoB. Heck i will play EVE and gather a force that smites BoB. And i will have fun AND slap their backpieces legal.
Go away hackers here comes the new generation of non-whiners.
Hooray for EVE
Down with BoB . but without hacking flaming and whining
I am a veteran of the game and I have been very vocal about my dislike for this cover up within the actual CCP forums using my pilots name, the same one you see above my reply here.
CCP is not a corrupt company. Yes a Dev cheated and I suspect a few more underhand deals have gone down or at least the current episode hasn't been fully uncovered, however this is still based on individuals and not the company as a whole.
The problem is not the dev cheating, and that's not what prompts me to call CCP corrupt.
The problem is the way the situation was handled. CCP only came clean (to the extent they came clean) once an outside source forced them to. The dev in question spawned items, gave them to his alliance, and as of a week ago those items were still in game. Only when the general hue and cry was raised were they removed. And even now, the developer in question continues to work at CCP.
Meanwhile, the forum moderators are working overtime to suppress any and all discussion of this on the Eve-O forums, moderating and locking any thread that even remotely touches on the issue.
Make no mistake: CCP *is* corrupt. They are not willing to fully disclose what happened, they are not willing to correct a problem unless forced, they are not willing to hear your complaints, and you have *no* reason to believe this will not happen again. All they want at this point is for you - the paying customer - to shut the hell up about it and keep paying.
It's not the misconduct that outraged me enough to cancel. It's CCP's handling of the affair that leaves me with no trust in them. I am convinced we've only been told about the least damaging misbehavior, and equally convinced that CCP's culture of secrecy and corruption fairly assures a repeat of this entire episode in the future.
Did they damage the slow-growth momentum that they've had going since launch?
Just maybe....
Can they get it back? If they can convince potential players that there's nothing to fear and make sure the long time members dont feel like there's still cheating going on . (due to hightened awareness..many people will be screaming "witch" when there really is nothing wrong going on anymore.)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
As of 9:11am MST there are 19,000 poeple on a TUESDAY morning, this game has never been stonger and this event won't effect population much. Only those people who think they are more important than they actuallly are will quit. they might loose a couple hundred people. This silly event will not by any means harm the game.
I am fairly impressed with CCP, how many of your employers would stick with you like CCP has done? I know mine sure as hell would'nt.
I have played EVE for 18 months and after that i needed a break. Now i have decided to reactivate my account despite the things said on the subject that Devs were cheating. Well, my opinion is if you can't beat them join them! So, if you became one of them you have the same benefit they have (BoD, BoB).
No, just kidding! I think that it is wrong to cheat the way that has done but i really don't care. You lose some you win some that's life.
I have read on some posts here that there is no game like EVE and they are right. It takes at least another year to complete "Infinity", the next generation spacegame, so until then you have nothing to play. Besides that there are far more things to do in EVE so if you are gonna quit because of this cheating then so be it but stop wining about it. A) You cannot break down the success the game has and you will never ever have the power to make ALL people stop the game. It leaves more room for me and my mates to conquer and new players will always come to join the club!
Well, this is my opinion so if ya don't like it -> dont read it'!
As of 9:11am MST there are 19,000 poeple on a TUESDAY morning, this game has never been stonger and this event won't effect population much. Only those people who think they are more important than they actuallly are will quit. they might loose a couple hundred people. This silly event will not by any means harm the game.
I am fairly impressed with CCP, how many of your employers would stick with you like CCP has done? I know mine sure as hell would'nt.
Birds of a feather flock together.
PS: That number could be fabricated. It was brought to you by the same guys who are currently sanitizing the e-o forums.
I knew a word that described bahve like this ah i remember, childish and ah yes paranoid.
If everyone that has another opinion as you is an ISD alt, well your world will get lonely soon. But in fact go and send kugutusumen and let him hack informations about me. I am eager to see how far you will go to troll around this forum just to get the 5/100 rank just to cast another vote against eve. What's just wrong with you. The topic was how you feel when EVE may loose players not who is an ISD alt, so please stay with this, and tell us what you will do, will you stop playing? If so why making such a breeze like you doing since registered? If you stop play you can even leave this forum alone instead making non-argumentational statements like "ISD ALT" i could even have thrown up a word like "Kindergarten" as you behave like that.
Thank you
p.p.s i won't stop play even if you call me a whatever
Geee, see my registration date on the left side of this forum?
Now i don't post a lot at mmorpg.com but i don't like k's spamming puppets rant randomly on every forum against eve. And i dont like the tactic you use, registering with a new name, getting 5/100 rank and then vote against eve.
You need your tinfoil hat definately.
And please stay on topic otherwise i am tempted to press the "report" button.
One more time, read the first post and answer properly.
And even if you continue to do this trolling i will continue to play eve and i will keep telling friends about that amazing game.
Geee, see my registration date on the left side of this forum?
Now i don't post a lot at mmorpg.com but i don't like k's spamming puppets rant randomly on every forum against eve. And i dont like the tactic you use, registering with a new name, getting 5/100 rank and then vote against eve.
You need your tinfoil hat definately.
And please stay on topic otherwise i am tempted to press the "report" button.
One more time, read the first post and answer properly.
And even if you continue to do this trolling i will continue to play eve and i will keep telling friends about that amazing game.
I've got every right to post my honest opinion about a game that I've played for the last 2 years. You are def ISD, though. You've got that same sickness they have that requires you to use the word "tinfoil" in response to any criticism of CCP.
You've only posted on here in regards to this issue, too, so don't act like you are any better, just because you are a toady instead of a complainer. Have some respect for differing opinions in a forum where you can't just delete our posts, maybe?
well Eve and CCP's reputation will be hurt by this, hell, its already showing in the ratings at this site alone; we have dropped from 1st to 3rd and went from 8.4 to and 8.2 rating since this incident. Will the game come crashing down? Not likely. Will its current numbers decrease? Maybe a little but nothing noticable. The biggest problem CCP faces now is future promotion of Eve and any other projects it has.
Originally posted by BigDave7481 The biggest problem CCP faces now is future promotion of Eve and any other projects it has.
I agree with this comment.
What I think that we'll see is a situation where several posts will follow any future endeavor by CCP. People are going to love reminding everyone of this situation, probably with posts that are only half-true (more flame than shame), and you can bet that it will rear its head when WoD comes close to beta in a few years from now (with any luck).
I don't expect EVE to fail because of this, though it'll stagger a bit. I also don't expect CCP's future projects to fail due to this, though they will certainly take punches.
I very much doubt that this incident will affect EvE as a whole,
There are a bunch of VERY vocal whiners on the forum screaming blue murder about something that only affects them, the majority of EvE only know about it throught the forum and said whiners, as to it affecting them, barely a ripple in the pond.
I know it doesnt bother me in the slightest.
To be honest, if some of the whiners would quit it would be good for the community as a whole, but they wont actually quit, they do their whole OHMYGODWHINEWHINEWHINELIISTENTOMENOWIMGOINGTOQUIT!!!111ONEONEONE!!! then dont actually quit or if they do they are back within a week or two.
I very much doubt that this incident will affect EvE as a whole, There are a bunch of VERY vocal whiners on the forum screaming blue murder about something that only affects them, the majority of EvE only know about it throught the forum and said whiners, as to it affecting them, barely a ripple in the pond. I know it doesnt bother me in the slightest. To be honest, if some of the whiners would quit it would be good for the community as a whole, but they wont actually quit, they do their whole OHMYGODWHINEWHINEWHINELIISTENTOMENOWIMGOINGTOQUIT!!!111ONEONEONE!!! then dont actually quit or if they do they are back within a week or two.
It obviously bothers you enough to register here just to whine about the whiners.
You even admit that it affects us, but it doesn't affect you. Does that make you useless, or what??
0.0 play is Eve's endgame. It would be like WoW resetting you when you get to level 60. Eve's game mechanics encourages thinking like yours when you are too new to really mean much in the universe. Once you get "hooked" to the real game (0.0 play), it comes as a huge disappointment to realize that the game is rigged.
Show some understanding. We've got more invested than you, so it hurts us more that CCP is screwing the pooch.
Eve will not die for a long, long time. The fans are strong minded, and while I couldn't get into the game itself, while I was playing the trial, I noticed that the players were intelligent and helpful. They know what they are doing, and they will keep playing.
That said, if enough people leave, it will not be able to support its own weight, and must therefore go under. I don't see that happening, though.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Comments
I guess from the tone of the replies that not may here are involved with the finances of a company.
Companies operate on very slim margins, it does not take much to push one into the red. Losing even 5% of accounts could be terminal for CCP. And certainly would involve job losses.
There will always be people leaving, always be people joining. What is important is that the number joining is less than the number leaving. And that the average time that an account is active is either stationary or increasing.
This scandal is hurting Eve's rating on this site, so less people are going to try Eve. If your userbase is angry then they are less likely to recommend the game. So again less new starts. This is almost as harmful as people leaving.
Most people won't leave, they will just be less likely to renew. So the effect of this may not be seen for months.
Also, ST:Online is in the wings, when it goes beta a lot of people could jusmp ship then.
a) new players who read up on EVE on sites such as mmorpg.com and find honest, disappointed statements from people like us
b) very active veteran players who invested a lot of time and effort in EVE and are very disappointed with the unprofessional attitude of the CCP employees
Think about it, most of EVE is supported by those 2 kinds of players: the new players stay for a little while only usually, but the continuous supply of them (so far) gives CCP a steady income. The veterans are those with multiple accounts and sometimes ISK purchases (from GTCs), so every veteran lost means several accounts gone and possibly some friends gone too, as well as a negative impact on a large group of farmers etc. who depend on highly active players to make their farming worthwhile...
I don't know if this will become a serious problem for CCP, but I wouldn't entirely dismiss the possibility...
Do I have any faith or trust in CCP now? No.
I will do what I do, and play with my freinds and corp mates until something better comes along. Before all this whitewash It would have taken a damn good game to pull me from Eve permanently, now its just a case of looking I'm afraid
I don't know about other veterans, but now that I cancelled my accounts because of the cheating, I don't feel like going back unless they not only make it clear that they won't cheat again, but they'll also need to make a good progress with fixing bugs and lag...
To me they have clearly been caught with their pants down and they obviously expect us to drop ours and bend over.
I doubt that all we have heard is all that has happened and I can't help wondering if the reason CCP has refused to take action, against anyone, is because they fear a banned/fired player/dev will spill the beans. I know, I know, tinfoil hats ahoy, but CCP's lack of answers has left it open to speculation. The fact that they are locking or deleting posts or threads refering to this matter would seem to imply that something is being hidden.
If you are thinking about starting this game I would stronly recomment that you dont. It would seem that EVE is not as fair and balanced as the Developers would like you to think. If you don't mind playing with a stacked deck, me and a few friends have a poker night you might be interested in
But I doubt seriously that enough people feel the way I do to make a difference. CCP is a corrupt company, but they make a product people really want to buy. I am sure they will survive this just fine, the same as every other company that this sort of thing happens to. There will be a big outcry for a short time, long- (and short-) time customers will boycott the company and stop buying the product, but in the end it will all be forgotten.
Until the next time a CCP employee gets caught cheating and CCP covers it up, whereupon it will all start up again.
CCP is not a corrupt company. Yes a Dev cheated and I suspect a few more underhand deals have gone down or at least the current episode hasn't been fully uncovered, however this is still based on individuals and not the company as a whole.
The problem some of us have with the whole episode is not that CCP do nothing but rather they didn't do enough in our minds and they took 6 months to tell us, only after it was leaked by other people.
Then they started damage control and blatantly ignored our pleas for more information. It is the whitewash that we are upset by not the wholesale corruption some of you seem to be attempting.
BoB are not all to blame, I have some freinds in that alliance and whilst I often insult them for being in there in a humorous way I also know they can be trusted enough to tell me the truth as a friend. The Dev in question, t20, cocked up. It wasn't delt with in a very open manner. These things can be corrected, these things do not make a entire company corrupt.
Anyone reading this should try the game, its a damn good game! With luck they will learn from this and make sure it doesn't happen again. If they do that quickly enough then I'll be playing for a long long time. If not, then I won't. I'm still glad I played the game from beta though and don't regret one second of my time in there.
Stupid CCP, stupid! You make people like myself bend all the way to the other side... Lets see if you can grow up eh?
Just because one man did a mistake?
And another man plays his personal revenge or whatever through this mistake?
Possibly not, and i have to say, if those guys surrounding kugutsumen leave EVE i have more chances to get higher up in the game, so i have to see the other side of kugutsumens action, more power to the fresh starters. The whining front that's leaving EVE don't have the teeth to fight that overwhelimng power of BoB. Heck i will play EVE and gather a force that smites BoB. And i will have fun AND slap their backpieces legal.
Go away hackers here comes the new generation of non-whiners.
Hooray for EVE
Down with BoB . but without hacking flaming and whining
CCP is not a corrupt company. Yes a Dev cheated and I suspect a few more underhand deals have gone down or at least the current episode hasn't been fully uncovered, however this is still based on individuals and not the company as a whole.
The problem is not the dev cheating, and that's not what prompts me to call CCP corrupt.
The problem is the way the situation was handled. CCP only came clean (to the extent they came clean) once an outside source forced them to. The dev in question spawned items, gave them to his alliance, and as of a week ago those items were still in game. Only when the general hue and cry was raised were they removed. And even now, the developer in question continues to work at CCP.
Meanwhile, the forum moderators are working overtime to suppress any and all discussion of this on the Eve-O forums, moderating and locking any thread that even remotely touches on the issue.
Make no mistake: CCP *is* corrupt. They are not willing to fully disclose what happened, they are not willing to correct a problem unless forced, they are not willing to hear your complaints, and you have *no* reason to believe this will not happen again. All they want at this point is for you - the paying customer - to shut the hell up about it and keep paying.
It's not the misconduct that outraged me enough to cancel. It's CCP's handling of the affair that leaves me with no trust in them. I am convinced we've only been told about the least damaging misbehavior, and equally convinced that CCP's culture of secrecy and corruption fairly assures a repeat of this entire episode in the future.
Will EvE fold over this? Probably not....
Did they damage the slow-growth momentum that they've had going since launch?
Just maybe....
Can they get it back? If they can convince potential players that there's nothing to fear and make sure the long time members dont feel like there's still cheating going on . (due to hightened awareness..many people will be screaming "witch" when there really is nothing wrong going on anymore.)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I am fairly impressed with CCP, how many of your employers would stick with you like CCP has done? I know mine sure as hell would'nt.
No, just kidding! I think that it is wrong to cheat the way that has done but i really don't care. You lose some you win some that's life.
I have read on some posts here that there is no game like EVE and they are right. It takes at least another year to complete "Infinity", the next generation spacegame, so until then you have nothing to play. Besides that there are far more things to do in EVE so if you are gonna quit because of this cheating then so be it but stop wining about it. A) You cannot break down the success the game has and you will never ever have the power to make ALL people stop the game.
Well, this is my opinion so if ya don't like it -> dont read it'!
Cya.
PS: That number could be fabricated. It was brought to you by the same guys who are currently sanitizing the e-o forums.
If everyone that has another opinion as you is an ISD alt, well your world will get lonely soon. But in fact go and send kugutusumen and let him hack informations about me. I am eager to see how far you will go to troll around this forum just to get the 5/100 rank just to cast another vote against eve. What's just wrong with you. The topic was how you feel when EVE may loose players not who is an ISD alt, so please stay with this, and tell us what you will do, will you stop playing? If so why making such a breeze like you doing since registered? If you stop play you can even leave this forum alone instead making non-argumentational statements like "ISD ALT" i could even have thrown up a word like "Kindergarten" as you behave like that.
Thank you
p.p.s i won't stop play even if you call me a whatever
I got the BPO from a dev!!
Now i don't post a lot at mmorpg.com but i don't like k's spamming puppets rant randomly on every forum against eve. And i dont like the tactic you use, registering with a new name, getting 5/100 rank and then vote against eve.
You need your tinfoil hat definately.
And please stay on topic otherwise i am tempted to press the "report" button.
One more time, read the first post and answer properly.
And even if you continue to do this trolling i will continue to play eve and i will keep telling friends about that amazing game.
I've got every right to post my honest opinion about a game that I've played for the last 2 years. You are def ISD, though. You've got that same sickness they have that requires you to use the word "tinfoil" in response to any criticism of CCP.
You've only posted on here in regards to this issue, too, so don't act like you are any better, just because you are a toady instead of a complainer. Have some respect for differing opinions in a forum where you can't just delete our posts, maybe?
I agree with this comment.
What I think that we'll see is a situation where several posts will follow any future endeavor by CCP. People are going to love reminding everyone of this situation, probably with posts that are only half-true (more flame than shame), and you can bet that it will rear its head when WoD comes close to beta in a few years from now (with any luck).
I don't expect EVE to fail because of this, though it'll stagger a bit. I also don't expect CCP's future projects to fail due to this, though they will certainly take punches.
The future will tell though I suppose.
~Mysk
I very much doubt that this incident will affect EvE as a whole,
There are a bunch of VERY vocal whiners on the forum screaming blue murder about something that only affects them, the majority of EvE only know about it throught the forum and said whiners, as to it affecting them, barely a ripple in the pond.
I know it doesnt bother me in the slightest.
To be honest, if some of the whiners would quit it would be good for the community as a whole, but they wont actually quit, they do their whole OHMYGODWHINEWHINEWHINELIISTENTOMENOWIMGOINGTOQUIT!!!111ONEONEONE!!! then dont actually quit or if they do they are back within a week or two.
You even admit that it affects us, but it doesn't affect you. Does that make you useless, or what??
0.0 play is Eve's endgame. It would be like WoW resetting you when you get to level 60. Eve's game mechanics encourages thinking like yours when you are too new to really mean much in the universe. Once you get "hooked" to the real game (0.0 play), it comes as a huge disappointment to realize that the game is rigged.
Show some understanding. We've got more invested than you, so it hurts us more that CCP is screwing the pooch.
Eve will not die for a long, long time. The fans are strong minded, and while I couldn't get into the game itself, while I was playing the trial, I noticed that the players were intelligent and helpful. They know what they are doing, and they will keep playing.
That said, if enough people leave, it will not be able to support its own weight, and must therefore go under. I don't see that happening, though.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman